⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

“ …Any poll I have ever read about shows that most Europeans are against Turkey joining. You tell me the reason so? They are a developed country, have a good economy, a large military. So then what is the real reason?... “

Wait a second; earlier you said the majority felt the way you did? But now most Europeans are against Turkey joining?

“ …Yes Germany and France want it there way or no way. The idea of having a union is that everybody has a voice… ”

“ …Maybe? but then the French and Dutch must have been close minded in 2005 when they voted basically the same thing down… ”

You are missing my point – neither side is close minded; they just disagree, pure and simple. If people smell the rat they vote the treaty down, does not mean they are close minded.

You say Turkey is a modern and well developed country? Well, try to leave the tourist areas (or military bases) and you’ll quickly realize that in many areas of Turkey, especially the eastern parts the standard of living is simply abhorrent. They make the Philippines look like Dubai. You keep comparing to Mexico but Mexico’s economy is tenfold stronger than that of Turkey’s. It is also more modern and democratic than Turkey has ever been (not necessarily an endorsement of Mexico’s progress).

However, that’s not the point, their quality of live should not be the reason they are let in or kept out of the union. It’s the overall oppressive society that would not fit in the European mold. Here are some quotes from an interesting article:

“Since shortly before the establishment of modern day Turkey in 1923, one journalist has been assassinated on average every 1.5 years. According to a report released earlier this year by the New-York based Committee to Protect Journalists, in the past 15 years alone, 18 journalists have been murdered in Turkey for merely voicing an opinion contradicting the status quo. Furthermore, up until the 1990s, only China had more "prisoners of thought" than Turkey.”

“As a country aspiring to become part of the EU, Turkey is obliged to observe laws spelled out by the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. But as Josh Calder, an analyst at Social Technologies, a Washington, D.C.-based forecasting firm, points out, "Turkey and Western Europe exist in different eras," when it comes to civil liberties.”

“Freedom of press and speech and attitudes toward women and religion in the public domain reflect an overall problem for Turkey: "When it comes to values and general outlook on the world, Turkey and Western Europe are decades apart," says Calder. "This phenomenon, which might be called dyschronicity, is even more acute if you compare certain parts of Europe to Turkey's Anatolian heartland: the time-gap between Sweden and some rural areas of Turkey is something like three or four centuries."

Full article: http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/article.aspx?id=1075

Do some people dislike Turkey simply because most if its citizens are Muslims? You bet ya, some do. However, the main reason most Europeans do not want them in their union is because they think Turkey is not yet ready to fully embrace democracy, equality for women and minorities, etc. Killing off 40% of the Christian Armenian population did not help; on top of that even discussing that genocide will land you in a Turkish prison. Remember, we are talking Darfur times 1,000 here; hundreds of thousands of men, women and children slaughtered. You think the Nazis ‘invented” the gas chambers? Think again – plz watch ABC News.

Now I do like the Turks as a people, I really do. I have been to Turkey 11 times in the last 18 years and have seen the gradual improvements with my own eyes. However, until they own up to their own murky history, they’ll never be able to be accepted as Europeans.

Turkey claims to be a part of Europe however, remember – geographically there’s only one tiny sliver of land that’s in the European part of Turkey and to complicate things even more, that sliver of land used to be called Constantinople and as you well know it was hardly Turkish then.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tionEurope.png

(well, might as well give this link... YouTube - Istanbul (Not Constantinople) )

They are trying to improve things and slowly some things do improve. However, like stated in the article – Turkey and the rest of the Europe are separated by several hundred years and that’s the reason Europeans want to keep them out, not because they’re Muslim.


“… The idea of the European Union was that they are mostly smaller countries and to act as one would make them stronger… ”

Nonsense – that’s what France and Germany want - the same countries you vilified earlier for their stance. Most EU countries simply want to make trading easier, improve education exchange, simplify communications, etc, etc. The minute you see EU turning into a ‘superstate’ with its own military, etc. you’ll see some EU states leaving the union. I agree that the military status in Europe is pitiful but that should be dealt with within each country or within NATO. No one has ever attacked EU because such a ‘country’ does not exist.


PS. Do you want to start a Turkey thread?


So in a nutshell - we need to build more wind power turbines!!!