johnpeace

In this scenario, by the time you get through calling 'setting climb power', the airplane will be touching down.

The guy who interviewed me wanted to see:
1. a willingness to discuss the situation with the captain after the flight
2. an F/O who asks around and talks to other pilots before running to the chief pilot's office
3. an F/O who, once certain that passenger safety is being compromised, is willing to speak up and address the issue (through communication with professional standards, CP's office)

Assume command of the aircraft and go around wasn't one of the best answers...though we do have that in our manual in the case of the incapacitated captain.

locomoco

Was the interviewer assuming the captain was incapacitated, or was the guy just more concerned about your willingness to shut up and let some "good old boy" friend of his break the law and throw TERPS-surveyed obstacle clearance out the window? What matters is your willingness and ability to make a CRM decision to take action in a split-second situation where your judgement may be all that keeps a passed-out sleeping Mesa / go! Airlines captain from flying an VOR approach into a tree. Doesn't sound like a safe company to work for if "just let him take it on down, shut up, then talk about it later" is the operating philosophy.

As a captain, if an FO I'm flying with went below MDA or DH, believe me I'd be FIRMLY on the power and controls. If I screwed the pooch out of fatigue or fixation or whatever (yes, it can happen to any of us), I FULLY expect him to do the same for me. That's his job! Why do we have two pilots on our flightdecks if not for those very situations? We keep each other safe and alive, which also keeps our passengers safe and alive, and gets us all home at the end of the day (or days) to our families and our beer.

On the other end of that, a captain INTENTIONALLY engaging in that type of BS is inexcusable in normal, non-emergency operations. Period. "Stepping on toes" be damned. That's not Pro Stans - level stuff, that's pure FAA certificate action material.

johnpeace

In the scenario we discussed at my interview, the captain just wanted to get home at the end of the trip.

We were at DH and the captain called the field in sight, though I didn't see anything.

Moments later we're on the ground and I'm sitting there not entirely sure of what happened.

Yes, I'm sure you would.

As FOs, we don't have the experience, authority or position to be quite this assertive with you flying. It's our job to trust and respect your judgment, so I wouldn't expect that we'd be quite so poised to step in and take the airplane from you the moment something goes wrong.

Yes, and the capt. who interviewed me at ASA seemed pleased with my scaled escalation of the matter:
1. discuss the incident with the captain to gather more information while giving the captain the benefit of the doubt
2. discuss the incident with other captains and other FOs who have flown with this same capt to gather more information and determine whether there is actually unstandard flying that is going on
3. If it is determined that yes, this capt is in fact continuing below DH, go to the chief pilot or go to the captain and let him know that he/she needs to report it to the chief pilot.

It is inexcusable and deadly serious. It seemed like the interviewer was looking for a newhire that will take the time to think the situation through, trust and respect the captain's judgment until certain that it can't be trusted and exhaust all available resources before running to the chief pilot.

That's what I got out of it, your mileage may vary.

Kdub

Quality post, JP, thank you for your input.

__________________
Life is fantastic, but it will get better. I'm optimistic.

locomoco

Very nice. Jenqueh.

airventure

Personally I'd be careful with the annoucement of "going missed to ATC" option by the PNF. If the captain is truely suffering from get-home-itus he probably isn't mentally prepared for a go-around. On top of that, maybe he'll still try to land the thing without a clearence.

spitfire1500

Kick his ass!!! Before they get you killed! I flew with a clown that had "get home itis" into a small airport in central Pa. It was fogged in... took it down around 50 ft......at the time we didnt know there were a bunch of Piper Cubs on their way to an airshow with people sleeping around them in tents and sleeping bags and they all started ruinning. I kept telling the guy to go missed.....the next day I made a phone call and he was fired! One thing I like in the airlines is I have never had this type of thing happen

flightfreak86

fill out a NASA report so I couldn't get in trouble if we did drop below minimums.

jedinein

In this case, a non-emergency, http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2008/080415.html, it was the FO that went below AFTER the captain called the go-around three times.

Their analysis was such that NTSB expects the FO to initiate the go-around even if it is the captain is pilot flying and going below mins.

In the interview, if all you have is captain going below mins, you gotta ask more questions. Do you have an emergency? Are you doing a CAT II? Is it the last leg of a 4 day (not that it'd change your decision-making, but it may influence the captains)? Are you about to have a fuel emergency? Is your missed going to take you into worse weather or exceed crew duty times once you land at the alternate (AA 1420)? Have the TR's deployed (amazing how many try to go around once the TRs are out, doesn't work too well)? What is the company's philosphy on the FO taking over? Are you gonna die for some SOB's mistake, especially one that gets paid more than you and who's family will get a larger life insurance payout?

If the company doesn't like your ideas, is this a company for which you want to work? Are you going to die to uphold policy?

utedrummer

Well, I have to say in "real life" i felt I had to go below once and did. I was a CA in a 99, FO was flying. We had passed through and picked up some clear ice and were in and out of it. We had started the App into Jackson Hole past the FAF tower reports below mins. Just then our CB panel goes up in smoke (FO pants had melt/burn marks). Get to mins and dont see a thing. Freezing rain above, Tetons all around. Smoke in the cockpit, CB panel doing who knows what to what systems and very much needing all my A/I. At mins I simply told my FO that he was right on course, keep going. We did brake out about 2 seconds later and landed on half a snow-plowed runway, greeted by the smiling faces of the crash-cars. PIC authority rocks but it was a looooong way down that GS and I had a toooooon of time to think about it, the only conclusion: "no chance in hell are we going around"

For the interview, however, I always gave the answer "call the missed to tower" followed by having a little chat on the ground that starts out something like: "could you see something i didnt?"