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Personally I'd be careful with the annoucement of "going missed to ATC" option by the PNF. If the captain is truely suffering from get-home-itus he probably isn't mentally prepared for a go-around. On top of that, maybe he'll still try to land the thing without a clearence.
I'll second this one...it's VERY poor CRM. It's underhanded, and the Captain may not even comply. It's poor CRM because it's poor communication. You should be speaking directly to the Captain per whatever your SOP calls are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnpeace
As FOs, we don't have the experience, authority or position to be quite this assertive with you flying. It's our job to trust and respect your judgment, so I wouldn't expect that we'd be quite so poised to step in and take the airplane from you the moment something goes wrong.
But you're still a crewmember on the aircraft who knows the standards
Quote:
Originally Posted by locomoco
As a captain, if an FO I'm flying with went below MDA or DH, believe me I'd be FIRMLY on the power and controls. If I screwed the pooch out of fatigue or fixation or whatever (yes, it can happen to any of us), I FULLY expect him to do the same for me. That's his job! Why do we have two pilots on our flightdecks if not for those very situations? We keep each other safe and alive, which also keeps our passengers safe and alive, and gets us all home at the end of the day (or days) to our families and our beer.
That is the right answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnpeace
Yes, and the capt. who interviewed me at ASA seemed pleased with my scaled escalation of the matter:
1. discuss the incident with the captain to gather more information while giving the captain the benefit of the doubt
2. discuss the incident with other captains and other FOs who have flown with this same capt to gather more information and determine whether there is actually unstandard flying that is going on
3. If it is determined that yes, this capt is in fact continuing below DH, go to the chief pilot or go to the captain and let him know that he/she needs to report it to the chief pilot.
It is inexcusable and deadly serious. It seemed like the interviewer was looking for a newhire that will take the time to think the situation through, trust and respect the captain's judgment until certain that it can't be trusted and exhaust all available resources before running to the chief pilot.
These are all valid points too, especially if the Captain has been bending or ignoring other rules or company standards. But DH in the weather is not the place to take time and give him the benefit of the doubt to be discussed later on the ground.
Your mention of it being an ASA interview makes me wonder if that's how the company approaches their CRM environment...if their FOs ARE as young and inexperienced as you mentioned earlier.
Thanks for posting the question JP, I liked hearing of your interview experience and everyone else's inputs. I'm here trying to learn too and offer my humble opinion where I can as well.
I'll second this one...it's VERY poor CRM. It's underhanded, and the Captain may not even comply. It's poor CRM because it's poor communication. You should be speaking directly to the Captain per whatever your SOP calls are.
But you're still a crewmember on the aircraft who knows the standards
That is the right answer.
These are all valid points too, especially if the Captain has been bending or ignoring other rules or company standards. But DH in the weather is not the place to take time and give him the benefit of the doubt to be discussed later on the ground.
Your mention of it being an ASA interview makes me wonder if that's how the company approaches their CRM environment...if their FOs ARE as young and inexperienced as you mentioned earlier.
Thanks for posting the question JP, I liked hearing of your interview experience and everyone else's inputs. I'm here trying to learn too and offer my humble opinion where I can as well.
Keep in mind...the Airlines are NOT fans of the low-altitude change of aircraft control. Especially an FO taking the jet from a CA. I wouldn't go to an interview with that answer.
Calling go-around on ATC is a last ditch effort after all CRM is exhausted...at the very least, the FO gets his voice on tape calling Go-around, it would hard to violate both pilots. You mention that the CA may not be prepared for a GA, but I think it would still be safer that wrestling the controls from him. Remember, whats to keep a non-responsive get-home-itis captain from trying to wrestle control BACK from the FO.
A lot of those answers seemed great, once you were on the ground. But what would you do if you were in flight? As some one said, would you tkae control of the aircraft as an FO? What is the escalation that you would follow to prevent what could become an accident? I understand respecting the authority in the cockpit, but eventually someone should probably act. You can respect the captain all you want later on when the airplane has not been turned into a giant lawn dart.
In the Marines, I would expect input of some sort from my junior Marines when I was going ahead with a plan, I especially expected them to stop me from doing something that I may have miscalculated. I also had a "One chance to intervene" rule where something would be brought to my attention if they believed i was mistaken. If after that I still wanted to proceed the case was closed. Do any of you use that kind of system in the cockpit?
"two-challenge rule" is what we call it in the AF, (at least in the C-130 world...anyone else?) and it's a commonly-discussed tool of CRM. After two "challenges" or crewmember's verbal inputs in a particular situation, if the pilot flying hasn't responded with a correction, then the other pilot should take control. Not "wrestle the controls from him", but an assertive, positive transfer of control: "I have the aircraft" or "I have the controls" ...in this case while pushing up the throttles and pulling the nose up to start the go-around.
I can't say that I've ever seen it applied, but we often talk about how we're all human and prone to mistakes, and that's why CRM exists. That's why crewmembers on multi-crew planes are there, to back each other up and catch mistakes so they can be corrected and the mission completed safely. Whether it's a case of channelization, spatial disorientation, loss of situational awareness, total incapacitation, etc....these things can happen to the best of us, and often (almost by definition, WILL) go unrecognized by the person experiencing the problem.
So...just because the other guy is a much-more experienced Captain or Aircraft Commander...that doesn't mean you let him kill you and everyone else aboard.
"two-challenge rule" is what we call it in the AF, (at least in the C-130 world...anyone else?) and it's a commonly-discussed tool of CRM. After two "challenges" or crewmember's verbal inputs in a particular situation, if the pilot flying hasn't responded with a correction, then the other pilot should take control. Not "wrestle the controls from him", but an assertive, positive transfer of control: "I have the aircraft" or "I have the controls" ...in this case while pushing up the throttles and pulling the nose up to start the go-around.
I can't say that I've ever seen it applied, but we often talk about how we're all human and prone to mistakes, and that's why CRM exists. That's why crewmembers on multi-crew planes are there, to back each other up and catch mistakes so they can be corrected and the mission completed safely. Whether it's a case of channelization, spatial disorientation, loss of situational awareness, total incapacitation, etc....these things can happen to the best of us, and often (almost by definition, WILL) go unrecognized by the person experiencing the problem.
So...just because the other guy is a much-more experienced Captain or Aircraft Commander...that doesn't mean you let him kill you and everyone else aboard.
You would think. I agree with your real-world opinion as it applies to Air Force flying, but in the Airlines most of the guys you'll fly with aren't Air Force trained. But again, that's not what they are looking for in most interviews and may see that as escalating the situation.
Remember this thread was started as advice going to an Airline Interview and we are just passing along the gouge.
The "right" answer isn't even uniform among the various carriers. Most of them want to hear that you'll call the go around on the radio, rather than change A/C control. Then take the A/C if he does something truly unsafe. If you're going to take the aircraft from him anyways, why not call the go around and give him a chance to do the right thing? I don't think its underhanded if you're preventing a change in A/C control. Of course, this is after all of the appropriate call-outs and lack of corrections.
Keep in mind the key to most Airline interview questions is giving your Captain every chance (and then some) to make the right call before you decide its time and absolutely necessary to go over his head.
I think Slice had it right the first time, and I'm surprised that this thread went beyond that. He's another guy with both military/civilian background. Of course you take the aircraft if you're about to bend metal, but I think that should go without saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice
In all my years of flying, I've never had this happen. The way I see it you either:
1. Call missed to the tower and if they issue instructions for a go around, you have essentially canceled the landing clearance.
2. Do nothing because it's more dangerous to wrestle with the controls that close to the ground then handle it afterwards.
Also, was there a reason for going below mins? Out of gas, passenger dying, fire that can't be extinguished, etc.
Remember this thread was started as advice going to an Airline Interview and we are just passing along the gouge.
The "right" answer isn't even uniform among the various carriers. Most of them want to hear that you'll call the go around on the radio, rather than change A/C control. Then take the A/C if he does something truly unsafe. If you're going to take the aircraft from him anyways, why not call the go around and give him a chance to do the right thing? I don't think its underhanded if you're preventing a change in A/C control. Of course, this is after all of the appropriate call-outs and lack of corrections.
Keep in mind the key to most Airline interview questions is giving your Captain every chance (and then some) to make the right call before you decide its time and absolutely necessary to go over his head.
fair enough...I appreciate the discussion and hearing these viewpoints
For all of you guys that say let the captain continue how do you know s/he isn't incapacitated? You must be interested in becoming a training video for CRM and CFIT. Here is what should take place:
1. Announce minimums.
2. If no response announce "Minimums" again you may tell the Capt to "Go around!"
3. If STILL no response take control of the aircraft and initiate the go around. I wouldn't waste time making a radio call and hope the Capt makes the right choice. You are wasting altitude and time. The Capt ALREADY made the wrong choice by continuing in the first place.
This answer has worked for my interviews with a regional and 2 national airlines and 1 international.
The purpose of the question in the interview is to see if you as an FO will step up and takeover in the interest of safety and BREAK the chain or if you will sit and your hands out of fear of the captain.
If the Capt has a problem with this then see what the CP has to say about it. There are a lot of dead "cowboys" out there and I am damn sure I am not going to let one take me with him.
As the FO you are there for more reasons then to throw the gear. You are an intricate part of the flight crew. As the NFP you are there to monitor the FP and back him up. If they are doing something non-standard, illegal, or unsafe it is YOUR responsibility to act.
Now as a Capt if something is non standard ie on fire, no gas, etc.. then it should be briefed that a landing is going to be completed regardless. But at that point an emergency should have been declared and approach minimum legalities are moot.
You would want to establish that the captain is not incapacitated or just 'blanked' out under high stress. If that is the case then take over and do the missed approach. If you get visual in that time go ahead and land.
However if the guy is being a cowboy and deliberately going through the minima and if challenged he tells you to shut up, just pull the gear up. Not much he can do now other than go around.
You would want to establish that the captain is not incapacitated or just 'blanked' out under high stress. If that is the case then take over and do the missed approach. If you get visual in that time go ahead and land.
However if the guy is being a cowboy and deliberately going through the minima and if challenged he tells you to shut up, just pull the gear up. Not much he can do now other than go around.
If this does not work.... Now it is time to resort to violence!!!!
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