poorpilot

This thread caught my attention. A couple of months back something similar happened to me. On approach to JFK 04R at 1am, we got a vector that took us off the planned STAR. The vector reduced the distance we would have flown considerably thereby reducing the planned descent profile. The capt just kept on "trucking" not adjusting the descent rate.....we were flying to the FAF and by my calculations were gonna be about 3000' too high. At that point I simply asked if he wanted to adjust speed, or increase rate-of-descent his answer was "we'll be alright just relax" obviously i felt like a retard because i figured he knew something i didn't.

About two or three minutes later, i was doing the rule of three in my head and again came up real high this time. I again told the capt that i thought we were high.....this time he reacted surprised, instantly pulled the speedbrake and started asking for flaps the thing is now we were too fast, in a steep descent and not even close to max flap speed. we crossed the final fix about 2300' above basically diving for the glideslope (full deflection), at which point i suggested a go-around but didn't get a response, 1200' agl and still had only flaps 5 and speed at the limit, vsi indicating about 1700fpm. Again i called go-around-nothing. Now i was feeling a huge knot in my chest.

1000' agl he called for flaps 15 and I basically started recalling the unstable approach rule in our SOP's. He relunctantly initiated the go-around at about 800', the plane started to shake like crazy, it felt horrible.....i looked down and saw the speedbrake still deployed. We were still descending at about 200fpm. I called my plane, firewall thrust, speedbrakes up an started the climb-out as soon as it was stable at 1500' i gave back the plane took back the radios and just pretended as if nothing had happened. This time around he configured way back.....Afterwards he said he screwed up, that he thought he could make it. that he was surprised by the break in his train-of-thought and had forgotten the speedbrakes. that was enough for me to see that he understood the gravity of the matter at hand. The only thing he asked me later was if i ever saw the runway, the truth is that when i took over and called for firewall thrust, we just slightly broke-out at about 600', but no i never had the rwy enviroment insight. He said he would take care of the safety report.

I didn't sleep much that layover. I still think about that night.

any comments would be great.
-PP

inky13

That's a remarkable story PP. Thank God the CA was understanding after the ordeal and seems as though as he learned from it.

frozenboxhauler

execellent post.
fbh

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ryan1234

If I got asked that question in an interview.... I'd ask just what kind of show they're running?

actually I heard one guy that got asked one of those "what would you do if you caught the CA drunk before a flight?" questions... his reply was... "I don't know...gee I hate to ruin someone's career over that"
he got hired, no kidding

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SomedayRJ

Crew incapacitation: Two communications rule. The other crewmember will be considered incapacitated if they fail to respond to two consecutive communications.

The problem with that determination is, per some FOMs, you can't let the other guy do anything once you've determined he's incapacitated, so you've suddenly become a single-pilot in whatever you happen to be flying.

Good job. Very well done.

Unless the airplane's on fire or someone's sick...aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order.

I'd say, "Minimums. Missed approach." And wait. One. Two. Three. "Below minimums. Missed approach." One. Two. "My aircraft, thrust go-around, flaps..."

If it gets to the point where I've taken the aircraft...well...

There would be 'interesting' words on the surface.

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Mason32

Hate to burst peoples bubble.... but this actually happend to a friend of mine about 4 months ago. CA PF, FO PNF. At MDA & VDP no RNWY. FO called MA... CA kept right on going follwing the FPA on the FMS. FO called MA on the radio... seconds crept by.... FO clicked TOGA buttons and pushed the power up, looked at CA and yelled MISSED APPROACH and did the flow/checklist. CA answered in the affirmative, then promptly blew through the tower assigned missed approach altitude...

True Story.

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DublinFlyer

This is an interesting thread. I consider myself a very good FO, and very competent in the airplane. However, like some people mentioned in this thread, I don't know that any of that matters when it comes to challenging the captain on something like this. I often feel like FO's don't have a voice in the flight deck. Fortunately I haven't had many situations where I have to strongly disagree with the captain, but one situation made me rethink my policy. While flying at cruise at night, we had weather ahead. Center, the other airplanes in front of us, and I had suggested we go south and deviate. He said "No, we're above it." I said, "I don't think so, and I think we should go south." Well he kept on trucking (he was the PF) and I said "Okay - here we go...." And sure enough at that point we got struck by lightning at F340, and got bumped and knocked around for 15 minutes. Looking back on it, I should have said "I want to go south!" I feel extremely uncomfortable when I have to challege a captain though, but after that I have and will in the future. I just hope I can avoid all situations like that though. Most guys are good enough where I won't find myself in situations like that, but regardless, it's good to have a plan in case it does happen. I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread.

Iflyfr8

As far as the approach goes, don't forget the briefing! If the weather is reported at or above the minimums it's usually always somewhat of a surprise when you arrive not to find the "runway environment". Discuss the approach and maybe even review your missed approached profile. Be explicit as far as what and when you WILL execute a missed approach.

Making a missed approach is a lot easier when you are prepared to do so.