Surefire

Did some digging around on this topic, but didn't quite find a thread(s) that addresses my situation:

A) I'm employed at a 135 operator at the rank of First Officer. Our ops include straightforward 135 charter, as well as "managed aircraft" that are crewed and flown under Part 91 for private owners.

B) I hold an ATP and have full type ratings (not SIC) on two types of aircraft. I fly both 135 charters *and* the 91 trips on the managed airplanes.

C) I am 135 current and am signed off on the testing requirements for a PIC (current 293, 297, and 299), but my company has not yet designated me as a Captain for any of the 135 flights.

D) I have been flying my legs as sole manipulator (left seat)

Question: For my pilot logbook, can I log the flights I described above as PIC time? Pilots and ops people with whom I have discussed this say the 91 legs should be ok to log as PIC, but I am getting differing opinions on the 135 legs. Again, my interest is what is accurate and legal to put in my logbook. I already know the airlines won't go for any PIC time where I am not the Captain of record.

Thanks in advance for some intelligent discourse on this question.

Slice

I'd say yes to 91, no to 135 also. Keep it simple. Do you want to have to decode your logbook down the road? Your numbers won't match in an interview logbook check and may raise questions.

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cac737

Guys/Gals, I understand your intense desire to build that coveted PIC time, and as newbies or newly typed FO's or whatever, the temptation to log any minute you can is always there. Do yourselves a favor, DONT!


Put 1 hour of IRRELEVANT PIC in your logbook and you will discredit yourself. No airline will care that you have 1000 Part 91 hours of pic time when you are an FO with any company. You are either an FO or a CAPTAIN, not both not either and you dont swap. You dont see a B737 Captain at United being a PIC one day and then an SIC another.

No airline cares about what the regs say about logging time as 'sole manipulator' ........that is flight school ^%$#!!! When something goes wrong in a jetliner, corporate jet or any plane......any regulating authority will not want to talk to the 'sole manipulator' they want to talk to the guy in command of the flight.....that is why they call it PILOT IN COMMAND!

This will always be an unecessarily confusing and misleading topic so long as there are people who will want to log any pic time under and pretense of the regs.
I had thousands of hours in several jets while I waited for my chance at command, and half of those could have been logged under 'sole manipulator'......instead they were all logged under SIC, because at the end of the day that is what I was....a SECOND IN COMMAND.

SmoothOnTop

WN used to allow candidates to list hours as sole manipulator of an aircraft that required a type rating. For what that's no longer worth....

User Name

This must be why I've been logging my left seat time as PIC in my free online logbook but I have been holding off putting anything in ink in my paper logbook for MONTHS. This encapsulates the little voice waaaay down I've been unable to ignore. Good gouge.

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"If we put GPS in the planes, then we would have to train you on it, and thats just not profitable."

blastoff

Disagree 100%. Put 1 Hour of FALSE PIC an you are discredited. If its legal, how are you discredited?...if they don't count it, they won't, thats it and it says nothing of your character that you logged something the way every FBO teaches people to log. If they say on the App they don't count it, it doesn't mean you've spoiled your logbook with bad ink, it means you don't include that time in your Totals. Come on, we don't need these scare tactics.

socal swede

whoever is designated captain on the company dispatch release is PIC,,135 or 91. The designated captain is responsible for the flight and therefore PIC.

blastoff

Again, you don't have to be the PIC to log PIC. Again we are talking about Part 61 regs.

cac737

messed this up, see below

cac737

Again, You are missing the big picture here. According to your way of thinking when you get hired at an airline and they type you right away, are we to believe that everytime you are sole manipulator you are correct to log that time as PIC. You are right, it is legal, but C'MON..... anyone reading this knows what the deal is, and that is what Im referring to when I say relevant time. Are you really going to tell the interview board that you have thousands of hours of experience as a PIC, and what are you going to say when they dig and say well how can you be the PIC when you were a company designated SIC......How utterly ridiculous will you look when you tell them that you are applying flight school rules when presenting your life experience. Not only will they not count it, but it now makes your application false, because in fact you DO NOT HAVE PIC TIME as ANY AIRLINE OR CHARTER OPERATOR sees it. It not a matter of saying well they wont count it and thats it......no......it goes beyond that.

You think that what I am saying is scare tactics....that is so laughable and displays a lack of a comprehensive understanding of just what is it that you are doing. If you bang up an airlplane (doesnt matter why), do you think that the ultimate person whos responsible is the "sole manipulator"? Give me a break. The one and only PIC signs for the aircraft, has the ultimate authority as to it's operation because he/she bears the ultimate responsibility for it. When there is a discusion on the ground or in the air between pilots and MX people about a course of action to take in light of an abnormal or emergency situation, the sole manipulator doesnt make the COMMAND decision, the PILOT IN COMMAND makes that decision. On the big jets, Captains go through more training and checking than FO's do because....yeap, you guessed it they are PIC's and carry greater responsibility. On the B747 FO's do not have to demonstrate 2 engine go-arounds but PIC's do.

If you still quite dont get it then let me further state one last thing. If you are truly a PIC by any and all definitions, then you should have the authority to make any of the above command decisions at any time. Furthermore, 99% of ops specs out there in use, have a section that details how only Captains can make takeoffs or landings under extenuating circumstances like special airports, LLWS, WX mins below a certain value etc etc etc......if FO's out there fit the definition of a PIC they wouldnt be handicapped the way they are.

Scare tactics? I dont think so. As you can see flying 135 or 121 presents a whole new set of things you need to think about that is not covered under part 61 or any FBO or flight school. The interview board doesnt give a rats ass about your sole manipulator time at the local FBO in puddle jumpers or at the controls of an airplane under the watchful eye of a captain, they care about your experience making command decisions in a jet aircraft under the burden of the responsibilities of a PILOT IN COMMAND. That's why you dont log PIC time.