Vampire

I have a question concerning takeoff minimums.

Assuming the following assumptions and not departing part 91, can I legally depart an airport 135 or 121 if I can see an object more than 1 mile away, but the automated WX is reporting less than required takeoff visibility? BTW I do have a TO Alternate.

Assumptions for the problem (or which of these is controlling?):
1) OpSpec does not allow anything other than standard takeoff min of 1 mile or 5000 RVR.

2) Tower is closed

3) Automated WX reporting is reporting less than 1 mile vis

4) Pilot is able to see both lit and unlit objects more than a mile away and the entire length of the runway is visible.



Also in the following situation which is controlling?

1) Tower is operational and reporting much greater than 1 mile visiblility

2) Automated WX reporting is reporting less than 1 mile vis

3) RVR is reporting less than 1 mile vis

4) Once again I can both lit and unlit objects more than a mile away and the entire length of the runway is visible.

Can anyone point me in the direction of FARs supporting your answer?

sandlapper223

Well, I'll take a stab at this for you. Of course, with your current ops specs notwithstanding, I'll use the data you gave for some brief answers:

1st example: You are hosed. Automated weather or authorized weather observer are controlling when tower is closed. Pilot "assessment" visibilities may be utilized for flight visibilities only, not surface conditions (except TDZ RVR under rigorous guidance from the FAA and your company). You will usually require a T/O alternate if, at the time of departure, the departure airport weather will not support a CAT I approach to your ops specs (i.e. it will be illegal for you to shoot an approach back to your departure airport based on your company's ops specs for CAT I).
2nd example: Tower observations (usually from an authorized observer) is controlling over automated. RVR is reported in feet/meters not miles. If the tower is operational, he/she will report RVR to you in feet/meters if it is available. If there is a conflict between their report and the automated one, then I use their report. If the tower report is less than your ops specs, you are hosed.

Again, the authority for lower than standard takeoff minima is contained in Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) sections (§§) 135.225(h)(3) and 121.651(a)(1) . When appropriate, principal operations inspectors (POIs) will issue operations specification (OpSpecs) paragraph C056 and/or C078 to part 121 operators and OpSpecs paragraph C057 to part 135 operators. These OpSpecs contain specific guidance regarding pilots, aircraft, and airports when lower than standard takeoff minima are used.

Cheers,

Slappy

dukesnider1963

A copy of the Operations Specification for an airline desiring to use lower than standard takeoff minimums states that:

"Runway Visual Range (RVR) reports, when available for a particular runway, shall be used for all takeoff operations on that runway. All takeoff operations, based on RVR, must use RVR reports from the locations along the runway specified in this paragraph."

Hope this helps.

corl737

... ahhh, just take off. That's what ASAP and the ASRS programs are for!

dukesnider1963

What interested me in the operations specification for below standard takeoff minimums for one airport/airplane was that RVR 1600 takeoffs were possible if the runway possessed ONE of the following:

1. operative high intensity runway lights
2. operative runway centerline lights
3. serviceable runway centerline marking

The spec did not say all of the above, only one was needed for RVR 1600. Interesting that good centerline marking would be enough for 1600 foot RVR takeoffs.

To takeoff with RVR 1600 the runway required touchdown and rollout RVR readings at or above the minimums, with operative runway centerline lights.

For RVR 500, centerline lights,centerline marking, and touchdown/roll-out RVR are required, 10 knot crosswind limits, and mandatory use of a localizer front course (if available).

The report states for RVR 1600 that the RVR report, if available, is controlling.

Green Banana

Set the brake and have some coffee. If you go, you will not get paid more, you put your passengers at risk and license at risk. Why go? If you stay you have FAR's, Ops Specs, Common sense, logic, and safety on your side. Your only argument to go would be "but I could see that tower out there". Good luck with that against the Feds and company if ANYTHING at all goes wrong.

__________________
Green Banana

Captain Bligh

And If I am the: 1) chief pilot, 2) the "nonreving for a short weekend at home commuting pilot", or 3) the paying customer sitting in the terminal waiting for you to feel better about the departure and I find out you were legal to go all the while, I am going to: 1) try to fire you, 2) not hang with you in the crew room or 3) tell my secretary not to book on your airline anymore.

Reliable, on time, efficient travel is what we do here. That means GOing not sitting having coffee. I despise the fact that so many people have risked, some in fact have given their lives to make air transportation more efficient yet the industry is flooded with people in the slowdown mode. From the parking lot on in, there is just one after another that want to turn airports into a time wasting adventure more reminiscent of a shopping mall than a center of efficiency.

You have no reason to complain that your airline's yield is too low to "give" you a raise. The people that want air travel efficiency have it and pay a premium for it on private jets. Cant help but think attitudes like lets have coffee help justify the decision.

Green Banana

Relax Capt.
All I am saying is that you take the safest course of action. There is no point in risking your career or life. The airline and FAA will hang you from the yard arm. If I am sitting in the airplane with a plate that says 1/2SM and a report of less than 1/2SM, I don't care if you can see the Russians from your front yard.

FAA says "no pilot operating an aircraft under parts 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter may take off from a civil airport under IFR unless weather conditions are at or above the weather minimum for IFR takeoff prescribed for that airport"

Notice that it does not say "Unless the pilot in command thinks he can see further"

You think when the weather is reported as LESS than 1/2SM and you say "But I could see 1SM, I swear!" they will be cool with it?

Good luck!

__________________
Green Banana

sandlapper223

Oooh. In that case, I'll risk my career and launch.

Ok Captain Cowboy, what's wrong with coffee? I like coffee. As a matter of fact I like it VERY much. Yeah, I'm one of those "we don't leave the blocks unless we've enough coffee for the return trip too" kinda guys.

If the weather is obviously no-go (as in the above example) -- or even close -- and you know MY policy about coffee, what makes you think I'd give a damn about your silly banter anyways? You'd be better to try that on someone else.

Phantom Flyer

What you other guys forgot is that if "Captain" Cowboy decides to blast off because he has a schedule to keep, and something goes wrong, he has ALPO to defend him and make sure nothing bad happens to him. After all, he doesn't want to have to go sit in the corner for a day or two.

Geez...G'Luck Mates