mshunter

I have yet to read something in the FAR's that say this is prohibited. The reason I ask, i recently had a student ask me if you could do this, and I didn't have a good answer for him. I have departed airport w/out control towers before, and picked up my clearance over the phone. But I have never departed an airport in IMC that didn't atleast have an approach into it. I have seen airports that have an approach that don't have a DP as well. For example see KIZA. No IFR DP in NACO/JEP/AFD, IFR depature procedure. I know that an IFR airport listed on a JEP low and Gov. Low would be a different color. Does anyone know? It's probably something stupid that I just can't remember, but my brain seems to be in lock-up lately.

FlyerJosh

If its an airport that lies in class G airspace, you can legally depart in IMC without a clearance. Even if it lies under class E airspace you can depart without a clearance, provided that you don't enter controlled airspace (A, B, C, D, E) without a clearance in IMC.

Is it legal- sure. Is it stupid? You bet!

If you're leaving a field that doesn't have an approach back in and the weather is down, I would hope that you would give careful consideration to alternates in the event of an emergency that requires an immediate landing after takeoff.

joepilot

I believe that taking off at an airport with no instrument approach procedure is partially covered by the reg about departing when the wx is below mins for an approach at the departure airport. File a departure alternate within 1 hour at single engine speed for a twin, or two hours for a three or more engine aircraft, at one engine inop speed.

Joe

mshunter

I thought so. And I woulden't leave unless I could atleast get to TPA w/out being in the soup. The reason I asked is because @ SZP, there are days that you may have 800/1000FT CIG, that is only about 500/1000FT thick. the nearest controled airspace is miles away and it's blue E (1200AGL.) The marine layer may only be about 3-5 miles east untill your out of it. And there is CMA and OXR realy close by, one with a WAAS and one with an ILS. You also have VNY with an ILS nearby, so there is plenty of options to get back down safely. If I was dealing with real weather, not just a marine layer, I'd stay on the ground as well. And If I were over a city with no options, no joy once again. But SZP is in a riverbed, with plenty of places to put down if thing go quite. I was just curious. 1sm and COC in gulf, yeas I know this is the WX requirments, but I like to way more than 1 while VFR. where I'm going when I'm not being controled yet, not on an inst. flight plan.

flyandive

Takeoff minimums only apply to part 121, 125, 129, or 135 operations.

Cubdriver

We discussed this a year ago here.

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nciflyer

Technically it may be legal to takeoff into IMC in Class G and people may do it routinely when operating on an IFR flight plan. However, I do not see how it is reasonable without an IFR flight plan or clearence. Allowing such activity could mean multiple aircraft converging at the same point not aware of the others existence because the pilots thought it was legal.

One function of filing IFR is to make sure two aircraft don't have overlapping routes whether under control or not and under radar or not. Which is one reason why we get clearence limits and hold for releases. With that in mind pilots could file IFR and still fly in Class G more comfortably knowing that other planes flight plans will be adjusted for spacing. Even then all it takes is for some other pilot to mess up their flight plan and run into someone else because separation couldn't be restablished by ATC.

Also, there is the problem with basic VFR weather mins in Class G. If a pilot is flying IMC in Class G without a IFR flight plan then should it be considered VFR or IFR operations? How could pilots prove what flight rules they are operating under without an IFR flight plan? If pilots can't prove IFR operations then they are breaking the reg.

Also, keep in mind Class G weather mins exist to keep VFR aircraft away from IFR aircraft finishing their approach in IMC in Class G. If such a rule didn't exist then traffic (without a flight plan) could go IMC and collide with IFR traffic because there is no means of keeping separation.

Whether it is legal or not I think there are many reasons why it should not be done.

Cubdriver

This is a good question and was not addressed by the earlier thread. ATC cannot issue a clearance for class G airspace since it is uncontrolled but they may file your flight plan and the one from other aircraft entering that airspace with with you at the same time. I would like to know if they are checked for mutual separation.

Another good question, and one I posed in the earlier thread. All due respect to Rick's opinion given in the earlier thread to this, but I will have to disagree that filing a flight plan in class G has no value as a "CYA" tactic. I think his reply may have been driven by the idea that burden of proof is on the government if they bust you for punching clouds in VFR. However, my understanding is that FAA law is administrative law, and they are not bound to the burden of proof. If they say they witnessed someone punching clouds and they had no IFR plan on file to cover it, then they are VFR and the bust will stick. I would be interested in hearing more views.

Absolutely agree, except that a lot of airspace in Alaska and other places is class G and the weather is also poor there a lot. It would be nice to know at least that if you file you are legally protected and you are checked for separation. It still sounds iffy as far as safety is concerned because another aircraft may drift off course and there is no way to know except through TCAS.

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mshunter

I wrote this post on the assumption that you had taken off with an IFR clearance. I routienly do it @ KIZA, which is gulf airspace. There is do DP, and the marine layer makes it's way in quite frequently. I am a regular visitor to the casino at the end of the runway, and when I end up staying the night, an early morning depature usually means a low vis, foggy take off. It is G at the surface, up to 700 AGL. And when I do this, I call for my clearance. I usually don't even have radar contact untill about 1300ft (about 700 AGL) because of the mountains that surround the valley. But usually at 1300ft, I am above the layer.

Just a reminder, this is not about takeing off at a class G airport, it's about taking off at an airport without inst. procedures.

jmcmanna

ATC won't issue an IFR clearance to an airplane flying in class G airspace. It doesn't matter if you file an IFR flight plan or not; it's a meaningless piece of paper in a TRACON or ARTCC until you've received an actual clearance. If you haven't gotten your clearance and departed within 2 hours of your proposed time, it goes in the garbage and is erased from the NAS computer.

This is why you might hear "released for departure, entering controlled airspace (meaning class E), fly heading . . .". You're responsible for your own terrain and obstruction clearance until entering controlled airspace.

ATC won't give an IFR clearance and release to two different airplanes unless the applicable aircraft separation already exists.

Just so there's no confusion about what ATC will or won't do; if you're flying around in class G airspace without an IFR clearance, filing a flight plan is useless and ATC will not separate you from anyone that they're talking to. They may give a traffic advisory if they see you on radar, but a controller doesn't know what the weather is at a lot of satellite airports or what your intentions are. In a radar environment, if you're not on a discrete transponder code issued by ATC, your target looks like every other VFR target out there, regardless of the flight plan you filed.

One more time . . . if you don't have an IFR clearance from ATC, you are not being separated from other airplanes . . . ATC probably doesn't even know you're there, regardless of whether or not there's a flight strip with your information sitting next to the controller.