TheDashRocks

I concur with what others have already said about declaring an emergency if PIC and ATC cannot reach a quick agreement about a course of action. Try to concisely present the controller with workable options. If none work for ATC, an emergency will probably need to be delared.

Pilots are tempted to speculate about a controller's workload and motivation. Unless you are looking over the controller's shoulder, hear all landline communication, and hear all coordination from controllers seated near by, you as a pilot will not know with certainty what the controller is dealing with. You cannot tell just by voice traffic on the frequency.

WX deviations can be very stressful for controllers. They mean that a primary means of separation is no longer available; Planes cannot be assigned headings or courses that insure seperation from adjacent aircraft. Increased use of altitude separation is used, climbs or descents may be delayed. This is especially true in terminal areas with multiple arrival and departure routes. The increased stress can cause a controller to sound angry on the frequency. I will not say that pilots are never placed in the "penalty box". I will say that it happens much less than pilots think.

The Dash Whisperer
29 years of Tower, enroute, and approach ATC experience

slipped

OK, but would you say "I need 060 OR im declaring an emergency"

__________________
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
T.J.

USMCFLYR

Well...since I'm no seer I don't exactly what I would say - but the end result would be something along the lines of "ATC - I need a turn to (insert specific hdg here or at a minimum a general turn) or else I'm going to have to declare an emergency"

What exactly are you trying to get at here with the questions?
Are you trying to figure out how to approach the situation?
Specific wording in really kind of pointless. It is the overall purpose of working with ATC to keep yourself out of trouble, and of actions that can be taken as a last resort to safely complete your flight.

USMCFLYR

slipped

I am trying to figure out when giving an ultimatum, how someone would word it tactfully and professionally. I guess I just feel awkward pushing ATC around, not that I wouldnt do it.

__________________
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
T.J.

USMCFLYR

I think you are looking at it the wrong way - or worried about things that you shouldn't be worried about. Meaning - it if comes down to ATC trying to tell you something that you feel is going to be UNSAFE - and you feel that it is SO UNSAFE that you need to deviate from instructions - then you do it. You are the PIC - you are the guy sitting in the aircraft whos aircraft is going into that Level ? storm - it is your butt on the line.
That being said - before you take that action - you had better be darn sure and in my opinion have tried everything possible to have worked within the system before going off on your own. How you say it if it were to come to this is really beside the pint.

Think of it like this Slipped.
Scenario - you are taking off out of LAS or ABQ and ATC levels you off at an altitude and on an assigned heading that will take you right into a mountain!
You ask for a climb or turn to avoid the ground. They refuse. What are you going to do???

USMCFLYR

tomgoodman

That was a classic simulator "setup". The IP would give you exactly Cat I wx, so you think "Ah, the ol' V-1 cut" -- but the engines run fine, so you think "He's probably going to give us a flap problem, or maybe a hydraulic leak." Nope. Then he simulates the F/A calling about something or other, and "fails" your radio. He wants to see how long you continue to drive toward the mountains before doing something about it.

slipped

OK, when you put it like that I understand, thanks.

__________________
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
T.J.

KC10 FATboy

The FAA does have definitions to help classify and describe the different levels of turbulence. Previous to this, they used to say in Moderate, it was difficult to read the instruments. In severe, it was impossible.

Light Chop.

Light Turbulence.

Moderate Chop.

Moderate Turbulence.

Severe.

Large, abrupt changes in altitude and/or attitude. Usually causes large variations in indicated airspeed. Aircraft may be momentarily out of control. Occupants are forced violently against seatbelts. Unsecured objects are tossed about. Food service and walking are impossible.

Extreme.

Aircraft is violently tossed about and is practically impossible to control. May cause structural damage.

USMCFLYR