Climbing out on takeoff with departure on heading 320, the crew paints a weather cell less than 10 miles off the right side of the aircraft. Another 15 miles on the departure heading would make it clear for the crew to accept a vector to the right. However departure instructs the crew to turn right heading 110 and switch to another departure frequency.
It was the CAs flight so the FO running the radios turns to the CA, and the CA says he can only accept heading 060 at most for 15 miles. Just as the CA finished speaking, departure angrily barks "turn right heading 110 and switch to departure 1XX.XX." The FO keys up and states that heading will not work due to weather and can only accept heading 060 for 15 miles.
The departure then hastily speaks " you should have told me that earlier...now you can go ahead and make a left 360 and maintain 9,000." The crew makes the 360 and the CA mentions the issue to departure and departure replies..."well now you ahould have filed a different route, now i'll have to switch your route...make another left 360."
On the ground the CA had stated that how he wished to add more fuel due to weather and at this point the FO is thinking how he mentioned that and how it would have been a good idea at this point.
Long story short...the departure ATC placed the crew on many vectors at cloud tops and would not allow a climb higher that 15,000. As the crew transferred from frequency to frequency the vectors became more and more outrageous. The crew experienced severe turbulence and requested a higher alititude after stating conditions and was denied. In fact all crew requests were denied and they were vectored into small build-ups with moderate to severe turbulence. A simple climb to the original filed alitude of FL190 would have kept the crew out of the turbulence and cloud tops.
It seems that this one departure controller passed the word along to the other ATC frequncies to go against this flight. This was a case of ATC controller error. One simple request turned the controller mad and made the flight a nightmare.
Climbing out on takeoff with departure on heading 320, the crew paints a weather cell less than 10 miles off the right side of the aircraft. Another 15 miles on the departure heading would make it clear for the crew to accept a vector to the right. However departure instructs the crew to turn right heading 110 and switch to another departure frequency.
It was the CAs flight so the FO running the radios turns to the CA, and the CA says he can only accept heading 060 at most for 15 miles. Just as the CA finished speaking, departure angrily barks "turn right heading 110 and switch to departure 1XX.XX." The FO keys up and states that heading will not work due to weather and can only accept heading 060 for 15 miles.
The departure then hastily speaks " you should have told me that earlier...now you can go ahead and make a left 360 and maintain 9,000." The crew makes the 360 and the CA mentions the issue to departure and departure replies..."well now you ahould have filed a different route, now i'll have to switch your route...make another left 360."
On the ground the CA had stated that how he wished to add more fuel due to weather and at this point the FO is thinking how he mentioned that and how it would have been a good idea at this point.
Long story short...the departure ATC placed the crew on many vectors at cloud tops and would not allow a climb higher that 15,000. As the crew transferred from frequency to frequency the vectors became more and more outrageous. The crew experienced severe turbulence and requested a higher alititude after stating conditions and was denied. In fact all crew requests were denied and they were vectored into small build-ups with moderate to severe turbulence. A simple climb to the original filed alitude of FL190 would have kept the crew out of the turbulence and cloud tops.
It seems that this one departure controller passed the word along to the other ATC frequncies to go against this flight. This was a case of ATC controller error. One simple request turned the controller mad and made the flight a nightmare.
What would you have done?
First and foremost, remember that the captain has the final say as to the safety of the flight and not the air traffic controller. IF there are storms bad/severe enough to necessitate deviations in the interest of safety, and ATC is not willing to negotiate a vector for you, then the captain can declare and emergency and deviate to the extent necessary to avoid compromising safety. Sure, you will probably have some questions to answer but highly improbably you would be violated for it.
Second, if I am aware of convective activity in and around the airport I am going to take an extra look at the weather. How bad are they? What are the tops? What is the forecast? A call to your dispatcher may be in order to discuss additional fuel and alternative routing.
Third, what are other aircraft doing on departure? If nobody is deviating, then chances are good that the storms are not as bad as perceived. Moderate to severe turbulence isn't desirable, but if it is a short burst and you're through it quickly there is typically no harm.
First and foremost, remember that the captain has the final say as to the safety of the flight and not the air traffic controller. IF there are storms bad/severe enough to necessitate deviations in the interest of safety, and ATC is not willing to negotiate a vector for you, then the captain can declare and emergency and deviate to the extent necessary to avoid compromising safety. Sure, you will probably have some questions to answer but highly improbably you would be violated for it.
Second, if I am aware of convective activity in and around the airport I am going to take an extra look at the weather. How bad are they? What are the tops? What is the forecast? A call to your dispatcher may be in order to discuss additional fuel and alternative routing.
Third, what are other aircraft doing on departure? If nobody is deviating, then chances are good that the storms are not as bad as perceived. Moderate to severe turbulence isn't desirable, but if it is a short burst and you're through it quickly there is typically no harm.
IMHO declaring an EMERGENCY here is questionable.
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First and foremost, remember that the captain has the final say as to the safety of the flight and not the air traffic controller. IF there are storms bad/severe enough to necessitate deviations in the interest of safety, and ATC is not willing to negotiate a vector for you, then the captain can declare and emergency and deviate to the extent necessary to avoid compromising safety. Sure, you will probably have some questions to answer but highly improbably you would be violated for it.
I totally agree - but I won't be the only one answering questions about my having declared an emergency. The controller will be answering questions also to explain why he couldn't comply with your request *in the interest of safety* and a review of the radar tapes and the comm will show if such a deviation was reasonable. I'll end this paragraph by saying that this is how it would be handled at my field if this situation occurred (military), but maybe things are different in the civvie world and controllers aren't held responsible for their actions; but I think that controllers will tell you that they are held to VERY high standards of performance. Controllers past or present have any input on this?
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Second, if I am aware of convective activity in and around the airport I am going to take an extra look at the weather. How bad are they? What are the tops? What is the forecast? A call to your dispatcher may be in order to discuss additional fuel and alternative routing.
I had a situation like this sometime ago. I stopped in Fallon after a flight up to the ranges from Lemoore. I had a problem and had to go to the line to troubleshoot. By the time I was done, I had already sent the students home as singles so I was sitting in the pits alone and watching the weather roll in (nighttime). In the pits I was facing in the direction of my planned departure and could see some seriously lightning building.
I contacted Desert Control and asked the status of the ranges around Fallon, then called departure and told them that my filed departure would take me right into weather and that I had talked to Desert and the ranges were cold; so I asked for a certain vector on my departure and it all worked out perfectly! A little pre-coordination can go a long way I knew I didn't want to wait until I was airborne and heading right for that weather to try and work around it.
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Third, what are other aircraft doing on departure? If nobody is deviating, then chances are good that the storms are not as bad as perceived. Moderate to severe turbulence isn't desirable, but if it is a short burst and you're through it quickly there is typically no harm
True too except for that weather can continually grow stronger and stronger and what happened to the last few aircraft might be a different situation by the time you plan on penetrating that same weather.
All in all it sounds like the CA did the right thing. Good job to the crew working with a difficult situation.
Slipped - Declaring an emergency might be the ONLY way for you to avoid a bad situation legally.
Moderate to severe turbluence is questionable. Moderate to severe to who? I have been doing this a while now, and I have only had what I would consider severe once, but that was when I was a new FO, so that is questionable too. Also, depending on the conditions, if you were in fact experiencing severe turbulence, then climbing four thousand feet may not have made a difference. I wouldn't declare in an emergency in that event.
Secondly, I agree with the second post on here. If you have a problem with what the controller is saying, or you disagree with the captain's decision, you bring it up to him, you do not key the radio and press the point.
Thirdly, if you have doubts about anything during a flight or a pre-flight you bring your concerns or doubts up to the captain. If he decided not to take your advice, then you are free and clear until the carpet dance. If you get low on fuel, there are airports everywhere in this country and you get to practice diversions. But chances are if you would have contacted dispatch they would re-work the numbers out of your reserve fuel. In any case, you made it from point A to point B without getting violated and without doing damage. So count your blessings and chalk it up to experience.
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I think the main premise of the conversation thus far is this: experience. Something they cannot teach you in the classroom, but something that is so necessary each time you go fly - and you gain a little bit more each time you do fly.
Moderate to severe turbluence is questionable. Moderate to severe to who? I have been doing this a while now, and I have only had what I would consider severe once, but that was when I was a new FO, so that is questionable too. Also, depending on the conditions, if you were in fact experiencing severe turbulence, then climbing four thousand feet may not have made a difference. I wouldn't declare in an emergency in that event.
Both CA and FO reported it as being the worst turbulence ever experienced in a mid-sized jet. The crew was unable to focus on the instruments due to being knocked around so roughly. They were at 15,000 at the tops and clear above. 4,000 ft may have made a difference between being severe and moderate. Upon first request by the crew departure said "that is totally unacceptable, make a left 360."
To me that is unprofessional by departure control and I do believe if the crew was not allowed to climb as requested, an emergency should have been declared for the safety of the crew, pax and aircraft. If the crew just followed ATCs request they would have passed this turbulent layer, but due to the CAs request to remain on heading for 15 miles...all other requests were denied and the initial altitude assigned of 11,000 was reduced to 9,000 at the time the left 360 instruction was given.
Point the airplane where you need and tell them what you are doing. I've hardly ever had any problems with controllers and have total respect for them. But don't forget, they're down there cause you're up here.
So would you tell ATC in no certain terms "give us our heading OR were going to declare an emergency" or just go ahead and do it?
If your question was in response to my comment - then yes.
I tell them that I need another heading (give them one if you can) to keep you clear of that weather. If they are unable to do that - then yes - I will have to declare an emergency to remain clear.
No...I would not "just go ahead and do it". I would work very hard with ATC for options which will work for both of us prior to playing that last safety card.
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I knew I didn't want to wait until I was airborne and heading right for that weather to try and work around it.
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