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Old 12-29-2009, 07:40 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by joepilot View Post
If you are departing in a non-radar environment, ATC will not talk about headings. They may tell you to intercept a course, or go direct to a fix, but since they do not know where you will be, they will not use a heading. Also, with respect to entering controlled airspace, consider that the 700 or 1200 AGL refers to present position, not takeoff field level. So, if you are actually in controlled airspace after takeoff from an uncontrolled field,then you have at least the 700 or 1200 feet ground clearance. How you get from the uncontrolled field to controlled airspace is what the OCD is for. Since you are not in controlled airspace, ATC will not tell you what to do. They do not want the responsibility. If you are lifting off runway 27 from a sea level airport and there is a 5,000' hill five miles west, then uncontrolled airspace extends up to 1200' above the hill. Note also that not all controlled airspace has radar or even radio communication capability.

Joe
Thanks for the input but still a little fuzzy about the wording. When you say OCD, does that stand for obstacle clearance departure (aka ODP)? But let me see if I can clarify my example a little better. lets just say your coming out of an uncontrolled field ifr and the airport is at sea level with class E at 700'. you call up using an rco, tell them your coming off runway 36 for example, and get your ifr clearance which states, "cleared to kxyz airport via radar vectors......upon entering controlled airspace fly heading 090.....you are now released at such and such time...." you know runway 36 has a departure procedure which says after takeoff fly runway heading to 1500' before turning east. So my question is, when you're on climb out, do you turn to the 090 heading at 700' when you enter controlled airspace or wait til 1500' for the odp. Really my questions boils down to, is atc now providing "radar vectors" at 700' and with that, also guaranteeing you obstacle clearance at 700'.
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Old 12-31-2009, 08:57 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Wink Easy Answer

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Originally Posted by mikerizzo View Post
Let's say your departing IFR from a mountainous, uncontrolled airport during daytime VMC conditions. Would you have to use the ODP if it had a "climb in visual conditions" portion? If not, what procedure would you use?
If you fly for an FAR Part 135 or 121 carrier, simply check your OpsSpecs. You'll find the guidance you need and it will keep you out of trouble. If you're flying under FAR Part 91, check the previous responses.

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Old 05-14-2010, 05:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Smile I have a different answer

Remember that ATC only assigns a departure procedure if needed for traffic. It is the pilot's responsibility to remain clear of terrain on departure. If no departure procedure is assigned, then the pilot can climb out however they want without breaking any FARS. If ATC assigns an instrument departure, then the pilot must fly it.

As far as Las Vegas goes, at an airport like that you will always be told where to go.
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Old 05-15-2010, 03:50 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Thanks for the input but still a little fuzzy about the wording. When you say OCD, does that stand for obstacle clearance departure (aka ODP)? But let me see if I can clarify my example a little better. lets just say your coming out of an uncontrolled field ifr and the airport is at sea level with class E at 700'. you call up using an rco, tell them your coming off runway 36 for example, and get your ifr clearance which states, "cleared to kxyz airport via radar vectors......upon entering controlled airspace fly heading 090.....you are now released at such and such time...." you know runway 36 has a departure procedure which says after takeoff fly runway heading to 1500' before turning east. So my question is, when you're on climb out, do you turn to the 090 heading at 700' when you enter controlled airspace or wait til 1500' for the odp. Really my questions boils down to, is atc now providing "radar vectors" at 700' and with that, also guaranteeing you obstacle clearance at 700'.
This is actually a very simple example. When you depart, you can look out the window and decide whether or not to turn to 090 ASAP or fly the ODP. Like a previous response noted, the ODP is there to keep you safe from terrain when in IMC. ATC should expect you to fly the ODP, but won't care if you don't. The ODP is always your option.

To answer your question: no, ATC is not providing vectors at 700'. Either the ODP or your own eyes provide the obstacle clearance.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:22 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Vectors

If ATC assigns course guidance to an aircraft below the MVA, then ATC is accepting resonsibility for terrain. Anytime ATC gives you vectors or assigns a SID, once in controlled airspace, you are obligated to fly it. If you feel that the clearance is unsafe, or you can't accept it, you must advise ATC that you can't accept the clearance.

NOTE
Pilots of pop-up aircraft are responsible for terrain and
obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument
altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot
compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC
instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA;
therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance

that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.
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