Nic ...
09-21-2014, 11:11 AM
#491
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by cactiboss
I agree 100%, as a matter of fact our lead arbitrator, Dana Eischen, was the lead in the Ual/cal list. Dana embraced the fact that combined career expectations start at date of single corporate control. In the Ual case, Cal hiredand upgraded while Ual downgraded and furloughed after "single corporate control". CAL guys tried to use that as proof of better career expectations, didn't workout for them when the arbitrators decided that everything that happens post single corporate control can't be counted. Sound familiar?
It would seem that the arbitrators looked at each groups pre-merger reality (where they had been, where they were going, expectations) and the elimination of windfalls.
Where was the West GROUPS pre-merger reality ?
Was realization of the Nic an imminent expectation at merger contemplation or completion with AA ?
Later they said in regard to George Nicolau's "four basic varieties of ISL arbitration", that "each case turns on its own facts". I think even old George himself would agree that the "facts" of the Nic (for right or wrong) have changed as a result of its lack of consummation coupled with a subsequent merger and SLI with American Airlines.
Again, the complexities and facts of THIS SLI make the assumption that the Nic will prevail very questionable. It will be one of the major questions for the arbitration provided first, the West even gets recognition as a party to the SLI.
09-21-2014, 11:17 AM
#493
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,293
Originally Posted by Frisco727
Good synopsis. Bottom line, arbitration results will produce some sort of dissatisfaction. It's the morning after which concerns me and how parties handle it.
09-21-2014, 11:29 AM
#494
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by eaglefly
The PA stipulates arbitration. ...
..
..
Arbitration is not a forgone conclusion, and any future right of participation in such arbitration is not certain, which is completely contrary to some implicit assumptions of certain West posters.
Personally I don't care if it goes to arbitration, or who gets to participate, though I have my opinions about the probabilities.
Originally Posted by eaglefly
...
Personally, I think the PA has UAL-CAL stamped all over it. That award IMO offers the best look in advance into the likely arbitral mindset that will craft our ISL. ..
Personally, I think the PA has UAL-CAL stamped all over it. That award IMO offers the best look in advance into the likely arbitral mindset that will craft our ISL. ..
Yes. And all of us will be just fine, unless we bankrolled all the legal fees to secure the Nic.
Originally Posted by flybywire44
USAPA says SLI will be executed similar to the DaL and UAL arbitrations.
This is their repetitively strayed mantra these days.
Sounds reasonable.
This is their repetitively strayed mantra these days.
Sounds reasonable.
09-21-2014, 11:43 AM
#495
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 147
Originally Posted by R57 relay
I thought you were an AA guy. Maybe that was a mistaken assumption on my part. Are you AA or US west?
http://www.usairlinepilots.org/index...=88&Itemid=524
09-21-2014, 11:53 AM
#496
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by eaglefly
But the arbitrators (remember, there are MULTIPLE arbitrators) also said this regarding the construction of their "hybrid model" (remember that term) in THIS SLI, ......."We inquired as to where the respective groups have been and we have made reasonable judgments as to where they were going. We attempted to recognize reasonable expectations of both premerger groups, but rejected proposals that could not be reconciled with governing merger policy or resulted in untenable windfalls. As in all such seniority integration exercises, the fairness and equity assessment is focused necessarily on the respective groups, not on each or any individual pilot."
It would seem that the arbitrators looked at each groups pre-merger reality (where they had been, where they were going, expectations) and the elimination of windfalls.
Where was the West GROUPS pre-merger reality ?
Was realization of the Nic an imminent expectation at merger contemplation or completion with AA ?
Later they said in regard to George Nicolau's "four basic varieties of ISL arbitration", that "each case turns on its own facts". I think even old George himself would agree that the "facts" of the Nic (for right or wrong) have changed as a result of its lack of consummation coupled with a subsequent merger and SLI with American Airlines.
Again, the complexities and facts of THIS SLI make the assumption that the Nic will prevail very questionable. It will be one of the major questions for the arbitration provided first, the West even gets recognition as a party to the SLI.
It would seem that the arbitrators looked at each groups pre-merger reality (where they had been, where they were going, expectations) and the elimination of windfalls.
Where was the West GROUPS pre-merger reality ?
Was realization of the Nic an imminent expectation at merger contemplation or completion with AA ?
Later they said in regard to George Nicolau's "four basic varieties of ISL arbitration", that "each case turns on its own facts". I think even old George himself would agree that the "facts" of the Nic (for right or wrong) have changed as a result of its lack of consummation coupled with a subsequent merger and SLI with American Airlines.
Again, the complexities and facts of THIS SLI make the assumption that the Nic will prevail very questionable. It will be one of the major questions for the arbitration provided first, the West even gets recognition as a party to the SLI.
09-21-2014, 12:06 PM
#497
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by cactiboss
Anything is possible obviously including the west not getting a seat. It all comes back to when the arbitrators believe the east and west merged or didn't merge doesn't it? So what is your educated opinion on what a reasonable person would say.when or was Usairways ever a single airline?
If there is an arbitration panel, it all comes down to what question(s) is(are) before them to arbitrate, and the premises they accept as relevant to the said question(s).
The arbitrators will have no difficultly ignoring irrelevant questions and information.
09-21-2014, 12:19 PM
#498
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
If there is an arbitration panel, it all comes down to what question(s) is(are) before them to arbitrate, and the premises they accept as relevant to the said question(s).
The arbitrators will have no difficultly ignoring irrelevant questions and information.
The arbitrators will have no difficultly ignoring irrelevant questions and information.
09-21-2014, 12:26 PM
#499
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
Arbitration is not a forgone conclusion, and any future right of participation in such arbitration is not certain, which is completely contrary to some implicit assumptions of certain West posters.
09-21-2014, 12:32 PM
#500
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by cactiboss
Anything is possible obviously including the west not getting a seat. It all comes back to when the arbitrators believe the east and west merged or didn't merge doesn't it? So what is your educated opinion on what a reasonable person would say.when or was Usairways ever a single airline?
Neither UAL nor CAL had that pre-merger issue though.
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