Airline Pilot Forums

Hey....does anyone have a copy of the scab list?

Scabs by Name (www.fracpilot.com/Scabs%20by%20Name.PDF)

I think this will work. Here you go.

Just remember that all of the CAL pilots on that list, and assorted others that Duane "forgave" are "no longer" scabs.

How so? Please explain.

Just remember that all of the CAL pilots on that list, and assorted others that Duane "forgave" are "no longer" scabs.

Says who? They crossed a picket line and that fact will never change. They may belong to ALPA but they get to carry the SCAB moniker for life.

Thats the way I always understood it

Says who? They crossed a picket line and that fact will never changed. They may belong to ALPA but they get to carry the SCAB moniker for life.
Absolutely!!!

Once a scab, always a scab. Nothing can change that fact.

Absolutely!!!

Once a scab, always a scab. Nothing can change that fact.

It actually says that right on the list "Once a scab, always a scab." To borrow a line from the great green one, who does not seem to be on the forum much these days, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck."

I second that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just remember that all of the CAL pilots on that list, and assorted others that Duane "forgave" are "no longer" scabs.

Then you MUST be a SCAB!!!!!!!

No doubt. Im sure he is.

Just remember that all of the CAL pilots on that list, and assorted others that Duane "forgave" are "no longer" scabs.

They're still worthless self-centered scabs in my book, buddy. I have an electronic version on the list on my PDA, and use it religiously.

Hey anyway you can send that so my pda will take it?

1101

I think this will work. Here you go.

Wow, that's an impressive compilation.

Is it used for anything besides denying the jumpseat?

Hey anyway you can send that so my pda will take it?

Hey Rob, no problem... PM me your email, and next time I'm in base (my PDA lives in my flight bag), I'll shoot it over your way. Are you windows mobile or palm?

Wow, that's an impressive compilation.

Is it used for anything besides denying the jumpseat?

Hmmm... yeah, is it used for anything else besides denying jumpseat?? Do carry it around with you on your days off??? WOW

Hmmm... yeah, is it used for anything else besides denying jumpseat?? Do carry it around with you on your days off??? WOW

Doesn't look like a list I ever want to have my name on. Was just curious if there are any other repurcusions other than not being able to jumpseat.

Y'all need to calm yourselves and apologize. If you had 1/2 a brain cell you would have noticed the " " marks around the word "no longer", meant to imply sarcasm. It was a jibe at ALPA for trying to tell us that these pilots are "no longer" scabs. Of course they're still scabs. Don't be *********s... I am a former ALPA rep and BOD member, not a scab.

Y'all need to calm yourselves and apologize. If you had 1/2 a brain cell you would have noticed the " " marks around the word "no longer", meant to imply sarcasm. It was a jibe at ALPA for trying to tell us that these pilots are "no longer" scabs. Of course they're still scabs. Don't be *********s... I am a former ALPA rep and BOD member, not a scab.

John,
That's one problem with some on this forum............they think they're always right. I've flown with a few pilots at CAL who believe EVERY pilot who has a letter after their employee number is a scab. They're wrong, and some of our best union pilots have letters next to their employee number. Also a few who crossed have apologized and TRIED to make amends, whether paying back their dues, working for their union and letting everyone know what they did is wrong. Personally, I don't condone what they did, but I'm not going to create a hostile cockpit environment because of it. That's stupid in my book. Those that crossed have to live with their decision, not me. Some will chastise me for my comments, but they are entitled to their opinions. Personally, I'd rather have them back on our side, rather than fighting against them. The more we have fighting WITH US, the better off we'll be in the longrun. JMHO...................

come on girls, its all about the money. pay your post dues and penalties and and ALPA will welcome u back with open arms! what a joke!

come on girls, its all about the money. pay your post dues and penalties and and ALPA will welcome u back with open arms! what a joke!

So which is better, NOT paying your dues if you didn't cross a picket line, or paying your backdues, apologizing, and moving on to TRY a be a good union member if you DID cross a line? Some admit their mistake............... time to move on guys. I flew with a STRONG union man at my last company. ALPA told him to go back to work at EAL, and yet they STILL put his name on the list. Go figure...........:rolleyes:

EBP,
Great post. I'm sure there are some of the posters here who would welcome with open arms some pilots in our industry who are today doing the same or worse to their fellow pilots in the name of unity. Yet those who crossed in the past are not allowed to try and come back and make a difference for all of us. I work for a company now where the MEC is acting in direct opposition to my best interest. I'd rather have someone who has made a mistake in the past but honestly wants to help me go forward than a union volunteer or rabid union member who stabs me in the back while telling me that they know what's best for me.

LTD

i would say the best goal would be to never be on it period. the EAL deal was sticky to say the least. last i heard there were still a few law suits floating around. the local M.E.C. said one thing, national said another.
if u crossed a line on day 1, or took a job during a strike you should not be forgiven because tossed up some cash. nuff said on this one from me.

I once talked to a guy at flightinfo who was a scab. He was constantly berated and beaten down. The guy once said to me he was wrong and wouldn't do it again.

That's good enough for me. I'd say he was "educated" over the years to the error of his ways. No reason to make an enemy out of a person who could be useful as a ally.

u seem to be missing the point. i dont carry a list. dont really care, u got creds u can ride my seat. period. all I was saying is that the only thing alpa cares about is the dollars.period. the list is more of a delinquent dues list than anything else.

The point of jumpseat denial and other more potent and extaordinary measures to be taken against those who are on the scab list isn't really retribution . It is to create an image or spectre in the mind of the next guy who is thinking about scabbing. Atilla the Hun once said that "no Hun is totally worthless, even the most worthless Hun can be used as a bad example" and that is the task incumbent on all of us..... We must deliver the consequences of scabbing to the scab, no matter how unpleasant to us it may be in order to credibly discourage future scab behaviour. Scabbing is very very destructive to our QOL and wages and forgiving it makes scabbing a viable option in too many pilots eyes.... Hold scabs accountable for their behavour forever!

John,
That's one problem with some on this forum............they think they're always right. I've flown with a few pilots at CAL who believe EVERY pilot who has a letter after their employee number is a scab. They're wrong, and some of our best union pilots have letters next to their employee number. Also a few who crossed have apologized and TRIED to make amends, whether paying back their dues, working for their union and letting everyone know what they did is wrong. Personally, I don't condone what they did, but I'm not going to create a hostile cockpit environment because of it. That's stupid in my book. Those that crossed have to live with their decision, not me. Some will chastise me for my comments, but they are entitled to their opinions. Personally, I'd rather have them back on our side, rather than fighting against them. The more we have fighting WITH US, the better off we'll be in the longrun. JMHO...................

Very well written and my sentiments exactly.

Wow...

How long ago was the last strike? 1985? 22 years ago? (I was still in college then!) To think some people still carry around a list...

Let it go. It's time to move on.

Wow...

How long ago was the last strike? 1985? 22 years ago? (I was still in college then!) To think some people still carry around a list...

Let it go. It's time to move on.

I sort of agree. But if you've ever had your job taken by someone who shouldn't have taken it, you'll feel differently. I have been in that situation and can assure you it's no fun. "Moving on" is not easy if your livelihood is basically stolen from you. And that's what scabs do.

The point of jumpseat denial and other more potent and extaordinary measures to be taken against those who are on the scab list isn't really retribution . It is to create an image or spectre in the mind of the next guy who is thinking about scabbing. Atilla the Hun once said that "no Hun is totally worthless, even the most worthless Hun can be used as a bad example" and that is the task incumbent on all of us..... We must deliver the consequences of scabbing to the scab, no matter how unpleasant to us it may be in order to credibly discourage future scab behaviour. Scabbing is very very destructive to our QOL and wages and forgiving it makes scabbing a viable option in too many pilots eyes.... Hold scabs accountable for their behavour forever!

Having said what you did, would you vote republican? That's the same as voting AGAINST labor/unions. Why would you vote for a party that's friends to Lorenzo, Ichan, etc? Hell, even John McCain, who's son is an airline pilot, hates pilots and their "whiney" unions. Yet we have pilots (non scabs), who vote for people like this to represent their best interests, and then wonder why their industry is getting clobbered. Maybe bumping guys off a jumpseat is a smart thing to do in YOUR neighborhood, but trust me on this......................one day you'll need to get somewhere, be it a funeral, athletic event, birthday, anniversary, or whatever, and you'll let this "scab" thing ruin it for you. And in the end, who did you hurt? Yourself, that's who. Morals are important, but even more important is to know that YOU won't cross the line. Times are changing and it's time to move on. No, I don't agree with what they did, but I'm not going to ruin MY life because of it. Who knows, maybe one day that "scab" might save your life, then how would you feel?

I sort of agree. But if you've ever had your job taken by someone who shouldn't have taken it, you'll feel differently. I have been in that situation and can assure you it's no fun. "Moving on" is not easy if your livelihood is basically stolen from you. And that's what scabs do.

Have you ever heard the saying "what goes around, comes around?" It will, maybe not in one year, or five years, or even ten years, but it will, I assure you. They will get their come uppance. There's a pilot at CAL who has done nothing but berate me for voting YES on the last contract (something the union supported and asked me to do). Yep, he was a scab, and saw nothing wrong with it. He thinks he did NOTHING to hurt his fellow brothers and sisters, yet when I did something the union ASKED me to do, then he berates me for "ruining his life". Personally I think the guys a total jerk............but HE has to live with his decision to cross, not me. I have zero respect for him, but then again, that's the problem with some of these guys.......it's all about THEMSELVES. My advice is to move on and let the cards play themselves out. They'll lose in the end, and you'll be a better person for it.

It is easy to toss around what "I would do during a strike", from a seat that pays you every two weeks. How many of you willing to kill a scab on this thread, have ever faced a strike deadline, placed your family's security on the line???? Not many I bet. Not a scab lover, not a scab. Walked the line in 1996 at cobra airlines. Appears many on this forum need to read Flying the Line , vols I and II.

It is easy to toss around what "I would do during a strike", from a seat that pays you every two weeks. How many of you willing to kill a scab on this thread, have ever faced a strike deadline, placed your family's security on the line???? Not many I bet. Not a scab lover, not a scab. Walked the line in 1996 at cobra airlines. Appears many on this forum need to read Flying the Line , vols I and II.
I have a friend who went through our strike in 1985. He was out picketing or something when the flight office called looking for him. One of his teenage daughters answered the phone.

To make the story short, just before hanging up, the person in the office said to the teenager "better tell your dad to get back to work or he will lose his job".

That will make a believer out of the doubters.

Having said what you did, would you vote republican? That's the same as voting AGAINST labor/unions. Why would you vote for a party that's friends to Lorenzo, Ichan, etc? Hell, even John McCain, who's son is an airline pilot, hates pilots and their "whiney" unions. Yet we have pilots (non scabs), who vote for people like this to represent their best interests, and then wonder why their industry is getting clobbered. Maybe bumping guys off a jumpseat is a smart thing to do in YOUR neighborhood, but trust me on this......................one day you'll need to get somewhere, be it a funeral, athletic event, birthday, anniversary, or whatever, and you'll let this "scab" thing ruin it for you. And in the end, who did you hurt? Yourself, that's who. Morals are important, but even more important is to know that YOU won't cross the line. Times are changing and it's time to move on. No, I don't agree with what they did, but I'm not going to ruin MY life because of it. Who knows, maybe one day that "scab" might save your life, then how would you feel?
Where in my post does it say that I voted Republican? And with your attitude it looks like scabbing has gained some degree of acceptability in Newark!

Where in my post does it say that I voted Republican? And with your attitude it looks like scabbing has gained some degree of acceptability in Newark!


Nowhere in my post did I SAY you voted republican.....or can you read? I said "WOULD you vote republican?"...........big difference. Would or did....see the difference?????? :rolleyes: See, as I said in my earlier posts, this forum can really turn ugly when people "read into" what someone writes. Scabbing "hasn't" gained acceptability in EWR as you SEEM to think (see, you DID write that)..................it's just that we aren't putting our lives on HOLD for something someone else did a long time ago. You can be ticked off for a long time, or you can get along with your career. I've preferred to do the latter.

Well, this sure has turned into a pi$$ing match, hasn't it? :rolleyes:

Well, this sure has turned into a pi$$ing match, hasn't it? :rolleyes:

Only when people "accuse" others of writing or saying something they didn't...
Ahhh, what a wonderful world we live in, eh? :p

I have a friend who went through our strike in 1985. He was out picketing or something when the flight office called looking for him. One of his teenage daughters answered the phone.

To make the story short, just before hanging up, the person in the office said to the teenager "better tell your dad to get back to work or he will lose his job".

That will make a believer out of the doubters.

Same thing happend in MEM in 1998. We didn't stike but we were waiting until the strike votes to come in.

Many MEM pilot's wives or family membrs received "Phone calls " while the Pilot was out on a trip. The message was "Your Husband/Dad better not strike or he will lose his job" That was also the 1st and only Time FedEx deliverd on Sunday. I received my Special edition Air INC magazine stating FedEx's proposal made us the highest paid, and included in the mailing twas the infamous "With or Without you Red Letter"

The sad part is that many of these phone calls were made by Purple Kool Aid drinkers (i.e Made by Fedex Pilots).

We probably still have a few of these types left but I think most of these folks are now retired or have finally "Seen the light".

If you allow yourself to be prostrate living paycheck to paycheck you subject yourself to a a lot of potential angst...from the company, family, or whatever.

If you allow yourself to view a strike as a 3 month unpaid vacation and plan ahead, odds are you will NEVER have to take the walk.

My girls would have responded with something like "do you mean he will be HOME more and stay on the farm with us? Cool!" My wife is too Southern to use profanity, but I'm sure she'd answer with a cool "thanks for your concern..."

Contract negotiations, cooling off periods, self help, mediation, and strikes follow a certain timetable according to the RLA. I'm not going to come down on a guy barely getting by at the regionals..but c'mon...these events are not a SURPRISE. Start saving NOW. Get that degree, or have your wife dust off her resume. Pay down some debt. If you insist on living paycheck to paycheck then you are setting youself up to get seriously squeezed. If you allow yourself to be terrified by a few phone calls they you have done some really poor financial planning. You don't launch without an alternate when there is bad weather...why plan your life without a few solid alternates too? Murphy's law is that if you have a good plan, you probably won't need to execute it...

John,
That's one problem with some on this forum............they think they're always right. I've flown with a few pilots at CAL who believe EVERY pilot who has a letter after their employee number is a scab. They're wrong, and some of our best union pilots have letters next to their employee number. Also a few who crossed have apologized and TRIED to make amends, whether paying back their dues, working for their union and letting everyone know what they did is wrong. Personally, I don't condone what they did, but I'm not going to create a hostile cockpit environment because of it. That's stupid in my book. Those that crossed have to live with their decision, not me. Some will chastise me for my comments, but they are entitled to their opinions. Personally, I'd rather have them back on our side, rather than fighting against them. The more we have fighting WITH US, the better off we'll be in the longrun. JMHO...................


Well said.

Wow...

How long ago was the last strike? 1985? 22 years ago? (I was still in college then!) To think some people still carry around a list...

Let it go. It's time to move on.

Comair struck in 2001.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/03/26/comair.strike.02/index.html

Wow...

How long ago was the last strike? 1985? 22 years ago? (I was still in college then!) To think some people still carry around a list...

Let it go. It's time to move on.


How about NWA in 1998??? I don't think anyone made the list for that one though.

Ok. NWA in 1998 and Comair in 2001. Didn't know that. Thanks.

Speaking of Scabs, I have a question:

Comair is a business partner with (if not wholly owned by) Delta. Since Comair and Delta both are ALPA, is a Delta pilot who goes to work during a Comair strike considered a scab? Especially since the article says Delta (and NWA--another ALPA carrier!) was accomodating the Comair passengers during the strike.


How far does this scab thing go? Do all ALPA pilots have to strike if one group strikes?

Comair is a business partner with (if not wholly owned by) Delta. Since Comair and Delta both are ALPA, is a Delta pilot who goes to work during a Comair strike considered a scab? Especially since the article says Delta (and NWA--another ALPA carrier!) was accomodating the Comair passengers during the strike.


How far does this scab thing go? Do all ALPA pilots have to strike if one group strikes?

Does that mean Comair ticketed passengers would get reassigned to Delta aircraft, or that Delta pilots would fly Comair aircraft?

In the scab list linked above (which no longer works btw) it was stated that the scab is somebody who otherwise doesn't have a job and takes advantage of the strike to get one. The Delta pilot who flies the Comair aircraft in the situation above isn't taking somebody else's job, he's already employed by Delta. Might be semantics, but the affect is the same I guess.

I do not care for line crossers any more than do others, but I will not allow them to ruin my life or career. Many here hate them (most rightly so), but their are the exceptions. One of our previous chief pilots was on strike, but had to go back to work since his wife was diagnosed with brain cancer and was needing very expensive, critical medical attention. So, what are you to do? Tell your wife/child: "sorry, but I can't cross the picket line so you're going to just have to die without my help?", or will you just suck it up and do what it takes to protect your family member? That is probably the ONLY excuse I would ever use for crossing a picket line. Many pilots here at CAL respected this chief pilot since he really was on our side and understood the ramifications of his job and home life, and what the consequences were if he ignored her medical condition. Even though she did pass away, he did the honorable thing and was able to get her medical coverage. Sometimes we have to make tough choices, but he really had no choice. That's not the case with about 99.9% of the other strikebreakers.

..........

How far does this scab thing go? Do all ALPA pilots have to strike if one group strikes?

Notice you have one of the biggest union busters of all time for your avatar. Talk about an airline unfriendly president. Fly into DCA and see how many controllers mention his name while controlling.......you'll hear NONE. Are you sure you're on the right forum? Maybe you can find one of Lorenzo or Ichan to use too. :eek::rolleyes:

I think if my wife was fighting brain cancer and passed away, my name being on some list would be the least of my concerns. Agree that that is an extremely rare situation.

I like Albief15's comments above in regard to being prepared to weather the storm when it comes.

Notice you have one of the biggest union busters of all time for your avatar. Talk about an airline unfriendly president. Fly into DCA and see how many controllers mention his name while controlling.......you'll hear NONE. Are you sure you're on the right forum? Maybe you can find one of Lorenzo or Ichan to use too. :eek::rolleyes:

With a name like Clipperjet, he probably works for that scumbag operation Boston Maine. If that is the case, it doesn't surprise me about his lax attitude towards scabs.

If you allow yourself to be prostrate living paycheck to paycheck you subject yourself to a a lot of potential angst...from the company, family, or whatever.

If you allow yourself to view a strike as a 3 month unpaid vacation and plan ahead, odds are you will NEVER have to take the walk.

My girls would have responded with something like "do you mean he will be HOME more and stay on the farm with us? Cool!" My wife is too Southern to use profanity, but I'm sure she'd answer with a cool "thanks for your concern..."

Contract negotiations, cooling off periods, self help, mediation, and strikes follow a certain timetable according to the RLA. I'm not going to come down on a guy barely getting by at the regionals..but c'mon...these events are not a SURPRISE. Start saving NOW. Get that degree, or have your wife dust off her resume. Pay down some debt. If you insist on living paycheck to paycheck then you are setting youself up to get seriously squeezed. If you allow yourself to be terrified by a few phone calls they you have done some really poor financial planning. You don't launch without an alternate when there is bad weather...why plan your life without a few solid alternates too? Murphy's law is that if you have a good plan, you probably won't need to execute it...

Solid post. Very well said and so very true.

With a name like Clipperjet, he probably works for that scumbag operation Boston Maine. If that is the case, it doesn't surprise me about his lax attitude towards scabs.

Nope. Just took my first flight on a Pan Am 747SP named "Clipper Lindbergh" and fell in love with flying and started a lifelong passion. I thought that "ClipperLindbergh" was too long of a name to use on the forum and ClipperJet was eaiser.

Thanks for being judgemental, though.

"Thanks for being judgemental, though."

Agreed. We need less of that, here.

Wow...

How long ago was the last strike? 1985? 22 years ago? (I was still in college then!) To think some people still carry around a list...

Let it go. It's time to move on.

You make statements like this and wonder why people get upset or judge you?

I was in college in 1985 also but I haven't had my head up my ass since then.

As others have mentioned, there have been strikes and many near strikes since UAL in '85. I know, I've walked the line and still have the picket sign hanging proudly in my house to prove it.

If you are on the LABOR side of aviation there is NEVER a time to "let it go and move on".

Management would love for us to forget.:mad:

Notice you have one of the biggest union busters of all time for your avatar. Talk about an airline unfriendly president. Fly into DCA and see how many controllers mention his name while controlling.......you'll hear NONE. Are you sure you're on the right forum? Maybe you can find one of Lorenzo or Ichan to use too. :eek::rolleyes:

But you didn't answer the question....

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that forum users were restricted to single point of view.

First, the PATCO controllers were federal employees that broke the law by going on strike. It'd be like the military going on strike. You just can't do that. Sorry. It's the law.

Next, I thought Carter deregulated the airline industry in 1978, which--to hear some talk--allowed all the LCCs which started the "downward spiral" of the industry.

Reagan started the economic boom that allowed the airlines to grow and prosper. How was airline hiring in the late 70s through 1981? Remember "WIN" buttons and a Misery Index. Inflation was almost 14% in 1980 and a the prime rate was pushing 20%! How "airline friendly" is that?

Besides, if it weren't for Reagan we'd all be flying for Aeroflot, and not be allowed to voice our opinions on a forum without spending time in the gulag. (A bit overdramatic? Yes. But not too far off…)

Now back to the original thread...

Ok. NWA in 1998 and Comair in 2001. Didn't know that. Thanks.

Speaking of Scabs, I have a question:

Comair is a business partner with (if not wholly owned by) Delta. Since Comair and Delta both are ALPA, is a Delta pilot who goes to work during a Comair strike considered a scab? Especially since the article says Delta (and NWA--another ALPA carrier!) was accomodating the Comair passengers during the strike.


How far does this scab thing go? Do all ALPA pilots have to strike if one group strikes?

Everybody seemed eager to jump my "you-know-what," but nobody answered the question...

Anybody....

No, though it would be more effective if they did.

Everybody seemed eager to jump my "you-know-what," but nobody answered the question...

Anybody....

Sorry to associate you with that scumbag operation, BM. To answer your question though, Delta mainline never came in and picked up extra flying or increased gauge on what was a Comair route.

But you didn't answer the question....

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that forum users were restricted to single point of view.

First, the PATCO controllers were federal employees that broke the law by going on strike. It'd be like the military going on strike. You just can't do that. Sorry. It's the law.

Next, I thought Carter deregulated the airline industry in 1978, which--to hear some talk--allowed all the LCCs which started the "downward spiral" of the industry.

Reagan started the economic boom that allowed the airlines to grow and prosper. How was airline hiring in the late 70s through 1981? Remember "WIN" buttons and a Misery Index. Inflation was almost 14% in 1980 and a the prime rate was pushing 20%! How "airline friendly" is that?

Besides, if it weren't for Reagan we'd all be flying for Aeroflot, and not be allowed to voice our opinions on a forum without spending time in the gulag. (A bit overdramatic? Yes. But not too far off…)

Now back to the original thread...



You're right, I didn't. Ask Ronald............he's a great unionist, right? I guess my point is having a picture of a union buster on an airline site is akin to a chicken voting for Col Sanders for president.:rolleyes:

You're right, I didn't. Ask Ronald............he's a great unionist, right? I guess my point is having a picture of a union buster on an airline site is akin to a chicken voting for Col Sanders for president.:rolleyes:

Which "union" did he bust? PATCO? They instituted an illegal "strike." I say again, an illegal strike. Actually, it wasn't a "strike" because federal employees aren't allowed to strike. A legal technicality? Yes, but a very, very, important one. They still can’t.

The law required that they be fired. Reagan didn’t have to, but he gave them time (48 hrs) to come back to work. They didn't so Reagan followed the law. He called their bluff.

Maybe you agree with the reason they were unhappy about their working conditions, etc. (I do too), but how do you justify PATCO breaking the law, and expecting to do so without consequence?

Seriously, without personal attacks, what exactly should Reagan have done when they illegally walked off their jobs?

Should I assume anything from the fact that you’re reluctant to discuss the original question?

Here's but one of the numerous sites on Reagans union busting:

http://www.dickmeister.com/id89.html

Speaking of Scabs, I have a question:

Comair is a business partner with (if not wholly owned by) Delta. Since Comair and Delta both are ALPA, is a Delta pilot who goes to work during a Comair strike considered a scab? Especially since the article says Delta (and NWA--another ALPA carrier!) was accomodating the Comair passengers during the strike.

How far does this scab thing go? Do all ALPA pilots have to strike if one group strikes?

scabs are pilots who cross a legal picket line to perform work that is being struck by the representing union. Most ALPA contracts have scope provisions that address performing struck work.

scabs are pilots who cross a legal picket line to perform work that is being struck by the representing union. Most ALPA contracts have scope provisions that address performing struck work.


except for Atlas Air and we know what happened when Polar crews walked out.

Try this:

http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WarOfTheClasses/scab.html

Everybody seemed eager to jump my "you-know-what," but nobody answered the question...

Anybody....


A couple years ago, Mesaba was very close to a strike. At NWA and 9E, any pairing that was in the (NWA & 9E) bid packages prior to the strike would not be considered struck work. There was an 800 number (staffed by ALPA volunteers) set up to handle calls from pilots who were reassigned and had any question about weather or not the new trip was a mesaba "pickup." If it was determined that a flight was to cover Mesaba flying, the crew was to refuse the trip, otherwise, it was scab work.

I am not sure how things would have played out had the strike actually occurred, and lasted into the next bid cycle.

Also a few who crossed have apologized and TRIED to make amends, whether paying back their dues, working for their union and letting everyone know what they did is wrong. .

You can not unspike the punch. Once you cross the line it is too late. Consider it a bit of career V1. Anyone that crossed that says they didn't know what they were doing or want to rejoin the ranks of those that have held strong are the worst of the scabs. I prefer the scabs that know they are scabs and they lurk through the hallways like rats and pop in and out of operations and never look up. The glad handers that think they can be forgiven are not to be trusted.

Which "union" did he bust? PATCO? They instituted an illegal "strike." I say again, an illegal strike. Actually, it wasn't a "strike" because federal employees aren't allowed to strike. A legal technicality? Yes, but a very, very, important one. They still can’t.

The law required that they be fired. Reagan didn’t have to, but he gave them time (48 hrs) to come back to work. They didn't so Reagan followed the law. He called their bluff.

Maybe you agree with the reason they were unhappy about their working conditions, etc. (I do too), but how do you justify PATCO breaking the law, and expecting to do so without consequence?

Seriously, without personal attacks, what exactly should Reagan have done when they illegally walked off their jobs?

Should I assume anything from the fact that you’re reluctant to discuss the original question?


If a unionized work group is being treated unfairly, what other bargaining tool do they really have if they can't strike? Is the union supposed to continue working no matter what happens, because there's a law against them going on strike? Teachers do it on a regular basis. What else can they do?

You can not unspike the punch. Once you cross the line it is too late. Consider it a bit of career V1. Anyone that crossed that says they didn't know what they were doing or want to rejoin the ranks of those that have held strong are the worst of the scabs. I prefer the scabs that know they are scabs and they lurk through the hallways like rats and pop in and out of operations and never look up. The glad handers that think they can be forgiven are not to be trusted.

So, based on your comments, what would you say to our ex-chief pilot who crossed in order to get the medical attention his wife needed for brain cancer? Just curious.....

But you didn't answer the question....

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that forum users were restricted to single point of view.

First, the PATCO controllers were federal employees that broke the law by going on strike. It'd be like the military going on strike. You just can't do that. Sorry. It's the law.

Next, I thought Carter deregulated the airline industry in 1978, which--to hear some talk--allowed all the LCCs which started the "downward spiral" of the industry.

Reagan started the economic boom that allowed the airlines to grow and prosper. How was airline hiring in the late 70s through 1981? Remember "WIN" buttons and a Misery Index. Inflation was almost 14% in 1980 and a the prime rate was pushing 20%! How "airline friendly" is that?

Besides, if it weren't for Reagan we'd all be flying for Aeroflot, and not be allowed to voice our opinions on a forum without spending time in the gulag. (A bit overdramatic? Yes. But not too far off…)

Now back to the original thread...



Lets face it.....PATCO workers were federal employees but very much looked like a Union. That being said I'm pretty sure the real reason Reagan sacked them all wasn't purely to abide by the law. He was still trying to position himself on the world stage as a strong leader and to give the Soviet Union the impression that he meant what he said. It was a way to show them not to F with the United States or you WILL suffer the consequences.

So, based on your comments, what would you say to our ex-chief pilot who crossed in order to get the medical attention his wife needed for brain cancer? Just curious.....

I am sure, that a guy smart enough to be a pilot, notwithstanding the fact that he was a chief pilot, would be able to find an alternate source of income during his airline's strike period. There is hardly ever - I emphasize "hardly", a reason to cross the picket. As a matter-of-fact, I can't think of one period. Regardless, there will always be jobs of another kind to help pay the bills while the Union is working to make your airline a better and more lucrative place to work! Bight the bullet, forget your pride, go work for the local grocery or a contractor or even the local refuse disposal service. Do something, but never cross the picket.

Lets face it.....PATCO workers were federal employees but very much looked like a Union. That being said I'm pretty sure the real reason Reagan sacked them all wasn't purely to abide by the law. He was still trying to position himself on the world stage as a strong leader and to give the Soviet Union the impression that he meant what he said. It was a way to show them not to F with the United States or you WILL suffer the consequences.

I agree, and who did he hurt by this action? The USA..........the country he's supposed to help protect. :rolleyes:

I am sure, that a guy smart enough to be a pilot, notwithstanding the fact that he was a chief pilot, would be able to find an alternate source of income during his airline's strike period. There is hardly ever - I emphasize "hardly", a reason to cross the picket. As a matter-of-fact, I can't think of one period. Regardless, there will always be jobs of another kind to help pay the bills while the Union is working to make your airline a better and more lucrative place to work! Bight the bullet, forget your pride, go work for the local grocery or a contractor or even the local refuse disposal service. Do something, but never cross the picket.

Great comments............until you go to find a job that will give you medical insurance with a KNOWN MEDICAL condition. You're out of luck. I'm sure your wife would be real understanding of your predicament while she's dying of cancer and you saying, "sorry honey, but it is what it is". Sorry, I don't buy your argument for one second. I feel sorry for your family if it ever happens to you.............:( (And for the record, I consider the SEVERE medical aspects the ONLY reason for a person to cross............my family's health will come first..........period).

Starbucks?!?!?

I've lately been preparing for a (2nd) career in aviation, and have never worked in a union job. Some of the companies I'm looking at are union shops, some are not. Are their folks on this forum who have worked in both environments, and if so what are the pros and cons in your experience?

Starbucks?!?!?
Great company with great medical benefits, but were they around 24 years ago with these same benefits???? Nope........they weren't even founded till 1985 and didn't become Starbucks until 1987. Nice try though.......... and the question still lurks.......would they give you medical insurance for a pre-existing condition? I doubt it. I had a heck of a time getting LTD because I had had tension headaches back in college (78-80). Even though I hadn't had them for over 28 years when I got hired by CAL in 98, the company running our LTD insurance considered it a "pre-existing" condition. It took over 2 years to get that changed for me (interesting how I could fly for three airlines, have a 20 year military career flying some of the most sophiticated helo's in the world, but couldn't qualify for insurance because of headaches 28 years earlier!! :confused::confused:) Now, what do you think they'd do with "brain cancer"?

I've lately been preparing for a (2nd) career in aviation, and have never worked in a union job. Some of the companies I'm looking at are union shops, some are not. Are their folks on this forum who have worked in both environments, and if so what are the pros and cons in your experience?

The execs that run airlines are like most US executives . . . corrupt crooks that are only interested in short term enrichment of themselves . . . . union or non-union companies.

The difference is that a union contract does provide some protections and gives a legal framework for remedy of abuse by management, like when they don't pay you the money they owe you for months on end, or they push you to violate their own company policy and/or FAA regs. Even then, with today's politicians, the law heavily favors management and is very hostile to organized labor, especially airline labor who are subject to the abusive Railway Labor Act and executive orders by the President making slaves of airline workers who dare to try and exercise their legal right to strike.

That said, I've worked for non-union companies from bottom-feeder non-union freight outfits to unionized major pax airlines. There's no comparison. Union was always better. I quit one non-union airline in large part due to the unbelievably shoddy maintenance, abusive scheduling, pilot pushing, and failure to pay me on time. Even the startups like JetBlue are starting to see the honeymoon over as management has to start facing the true costs and management challenges of running an real airline.

Great comments............until you go to find a job that will give you medical insurance with a KNOWN MEDICAL condition. You're out of luck. I'm sure your wife would be real understanding of your predicament while she's dying of cancer and you saying, "sorry honey, but it is what it is". Sorry, I don't buy your argument for one second. I feel sorry for your family if it ever happens to you.............:( (And for the record, I consider the SEVERE medical aspects the ONLY reason for a person to cross............my families health will come first..........period).

The question is how severe is "severe", and how severe is too severe. If my wife was *dying* of a terminal condition, I am not going to cross a picket to try and elongate her suffering! I would certainly do what I could to ease her pain; but when God wants to call her home, that's His business. If death was inescapable I would have to be resigned to fate, and make whatever time I had left with my wife as best I could, while doing my best to prepare her for what lies beyond the death bed.

For me, the situation will hopefully never be dire, as I do have multiple other options, and I have arranged my budget in such a way that I will be prepared -hopefully - for emergencies. If there is one thing I know about financing myself as a pilot it is never to rely on the airline. My retirement is in my Roth IRA, my medical emergency kitty is in a high interest bank account. I keep enough of a reserve to pay at least three months worth of bills, in the event of an emergency. It is with these precautionary measures that I feel confident I can outlast a strike. Furthermore, I have some experience in various other venues to secure me at least an intermediary job.

I think that it is the responsibility of every pilot to be sure his family is provided for should something happen to him, or should the unpredictable nature of our industry incapacitate us. Can we be prepared for everything? No. But we can be prepared to meet whatever comes our way. That is part of being a pilot, we need to be prepared to meet a situation, and act efficiently.

As pilots, we have an obligation to each other to ensure the high standards of our profession. I hope that I will never be confronted with a life or death consequential decision when it comes to picketing. For me, I would seek to exhaust every other possibility of securing my family's well-being before I would even entertain the thought of crossing the line. For by crossing the line, I could do irreparable damage to to our profession.

Lastly, I should hope that picketing pilots would be concerned with the well-fare of their entire pilot group. And should a fellow pilot be doing his best to hold the line, but it is proving to be an impossibility for him to do so, I would not hesitate in helping him/her as best I may. For by ensuring that he does not need to cross the line, I am ensuring that my union has the leverage they need to help my entire pilot group.

I do not stand here to pass judgment on any person. If a pilot felt that he had to cross the line, that's his business. But if his name is on the scab list, he shouldn't even bother asking for a ride on any aircraft that I am Captain of, or for any other favors for that matter. If I, or my FO know him personally, will I be more objective? Certainly. But a pilot labeled as a scab is a scab, as far as I am concerned.

Call me an idealist, but these are my views. :)

Great comments............until you go to find a job that will give you medical insurance with a KNOWN MEDICAL condition. You're out of luck. I'm sure your wife would be real understanding of your predicament while she's dying of cancer and you saying, "sorry honey, but it is what it is". Sorry, I don't buy your argument for one second. I feel sorry for your family if it ever happens to you.............:( (And for the record, I consider the SEVERE medical aspects the ONLY reason for a person to cross............my family's health will come first..........period).

He could have paid for the Cobra benefits.

So, based on your comments, what would you say to our ex-chief pilot who crossed in order to get the medical attention his wife needed for brain cancer? Just curious.....

I would say hold the line. I bet his brothers would have come to his aid for COBRA to take care of the wife. However, he did not and thus he should be ostracized for life. I don't like scabs. Never have never will no matter what story they have. We all have problems. Some of us are just strong enough to hold the line. Others are week and they walk.

So, based on your comments, what would you say to our ex-chief pilot who crossed in order to get the medical attention his wife needed for brain cancer? Just curious.....

I would say hold the line. I bet his brothers would have come to his aid for COBRA to take care of the wife. However, he did not and thus he should be ostracized for life. I don't like scabs. Never have never will no matter what story they have. We all have problems. Some of us are just strong enough to hold the line. Others are weak and they cross.

Great comments............until you go to find a job that will give you medical insurance with a KNOWN MEDICAL condition. You're out of luck. I'm sure your wife would be real understanding of your predicament while she's dying of cancer and you saying, "sorry honey, but it is what it is". Sorry, I don't buy your argument for one second. I feel sorry for your family if it ever happens to you.............:( (And for the record, I consider the SEVERE medical aspects the ONLY reason for a person to cross............my family's health will come first..........period).


Sounds like you might have crossed previously eh?

Quick question: The medical hypothetical is interesting.

What does ALPA, APA, Teamsters have available regarding health insurance during a strike? How does that work? Additionally, if you are disabled (say a stroke) while on strike - can you collect company provided disability insurance?

Sorry to stray a little off track - but I am interested in this topic.

. . . . like most US executives . . . corrupt crooks that are only interested in short term enrichment of themselves . . . . union or non-union companies. .

What a generalization ? I've been an executive and many airline pilots are executives in companies they run as a second occupation. I think there laws that keep the number of "corrupt crooks." to a minimum.

It has been stated that a scab is one who flies struck work. What is a pilot that stands waiting for the strike ready to fly? ie. the managers that were hired as a buffer if the IPA struck. What are those pilots that now want to be under the IPAs umbrella?:confused:

Sounds like you might have crossed previously eh?

Ooops........I guess I got caught!!! :rolleyes: Yeah, I crossed the line when I was 21 and went into the military.............go figure. I've been in the union and with good standing at every airline I've ever flown for, so guess what? YOU'RE WRONG!!! I think it's interesting to see how many would hold the line, but I'm betting the majority that say they wouldn't cross, wouldn't let their child or wife die to prove a point. Maybe I'm wrong, but until you've been put in someones shoes "medically", it's hard to second guess them. I'm a staunch union supporter, so run with whatever illusions you may have. :eek::rolleyes:

The link that was posted isn't working for me, is there any other site that has the scab list???

The link that was posted isn't working for me, is there any other site that has the scab list???

Try google first. That's the way I find it.

I think it's interesting to see how many would hold the line, but I'm betting the majority that say they wouldn't cross, wouldn't let their child or wife die to prove a point. Maybe I'm wrong, but until you've been put in someones shoes "medically", it's hard to second guess them.

No one will die if you don't cross a picket line. The whole medical thing is an excuse. A scab is a scab with NO exceptions. There is always a way to care for your family. Cash, credit, COBRA, etc. Hospitals do not refuse treatment based on your ecomonic status. I've heard the scab excuses: I was going to lose my home, wife, kids, car, boat, etc. There is no reason to cross a picket line.

No one will die if you don't cross a picket line. The whole medical thing is an excuse. A scab is a scab with NO exceptions. There is always a way to care for your family. Cash, credit, COBRA, etc. Hospitals do not refuse treatment based on your ecomonic status. I've heard the scab excuses: I was going to lose my home, wife, kids, car, boat, etc. There is no reason to cross a picket line.

Try walking into one of the county's top hospitals without the insurance that you cannot afford and see how quickly you get seen.

Here is a question...I am reading how many of you would let your families, your wives or husbands, children and babies, suffer rather than have to cross. How far does that go? You could substitute the words "nazi" for "scab" in some of these posts, and I would think people are ready to storm the beach in Normandy. At some point, doesn't this religious fervor and blind devotion to the union mantra become a bit extreme? How many of you would die for your union? Is that what it comes down to?

I mean really, how could you not put your wife with a serious medical condition ahead of a job?

How many of you would die for your union? Is that what it comes down to?

I mean really, how could you not put your wife with a serious medical condition ahead of a job?

It's not about "the union", it's about fellow pilots. I'm not going to steal to support my family either. And that is what scabbing amounts to. Stealing from fellow pilots.

And the whole notion of a "serious medical condition" is laughable. Get a job with McDonalds and pay the cobra benefits. No lapse in insurance and your wife is saved! Every pilot should have enough in savings to last at least a 6 month strike.

It's not about "the union", it's about fellow pilots. I'm not going to steal to support my family either. And that is what scabbing amounts to. Stealing from fellow pilots.

And the whole notion of a "serious medical condition" is laughable. Get a job with McDonalds and pay the cobra benefits. No lapse in insurance and your wife is saved! Every pilot should have enough in savings to last at least a 6 month strike.

You're right........it's laughable until it happens to YOU!!! Then it's not very funny at all. I keep saying I don't know of ANY medical insurance companies that will take you on with a preexisting condition. We have a lot of "heroes" on this forum that would rather see their family suffer. I said the ONLY reason I would cross is for the SAFETY of one of my family members. If that offends anyone on here, well, you'd be welcome to pay the medical bills since you're 100% sure that McDonalds and Dairy Queen would accept you with open arms. I'm here to say you are 100%, WRONG. I have plenty put away and don't rely on my airline for ANY retirement, etc. If I did, I'd be a fool. I do find it interesting with all these "die hard" unionists, that many here don't help the union do a da#n thing. But they'll sure complain about everything the union does/doesnt' do for them. Crossing a picket line is a serious matter, something I don't condone. But, like just about everything in this world, there are exceptions. I don't know the whole story about our ex-chief pilots problem, but many here seem to think it's a quick easy fix to find another job with benefits. Interesting thing though, is it that it takes 6 months to get medical insurance at CAL, and we're a major company. Many newhires do nothing but complain and whine about the low starting salary AND LACK OF MEDICAL BENEFITS, but someone who was making $80,000 a year and had all his benefits taken away, is supposed to go survive merrily on $4.00 an hour and get immediate benefits. My thinking is that many of you have no clue as to what the REAL WORLD is like. It's always easy to second guess someone, but I'm sure if you talked to the individual involved, it might change your mind. I've never heard any pilot at CAL come down on this pilot for what he did. Why? Because the situation was pretty dire at the time.

No one will die if you don't cross a picket line. The whole medical thing is an excuse. A scab is a scab with NO exceptions. There is always a way to care for your family. Cash, credit, COBRA, etc. Hospitals do not refuse treatment based on your ecomonic status. I've heard the scab excuses: I was going to lose my home, wife, kids, car, boat, etc. There is no reason to cross a picket line.

So why did you happily accept a job at a company with "scabs" if you hate them so much? Now you HAVE to work with them. Then again, I guess you'd screw yourself out of a job with UAL, FEDEX, CAL, NWA, etc.........:eek:

You're right........it's laughable until it happens to YOU!!! Then it's not very funny at all. I keep saying I don't know of ANY medical insurance companies that will take you on with a preexisting condition.

Either you don't listen very well or you aren't that bright. I said COBRA benefits. Do you know what those are? They maintain the benefits you ALREADY HAD from the company you are on strike for!! Now read this again, very carefully. You don't have a problem with a pre-existing condition if you stay with the same insurance company!! Got it now?

http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_cobra.html

Not trying to be smart here, but it says you may be disqualified for COBRA benefits in a situation involving "gross misconduct."

Is refusing to show up for work considered "gross misconduct?"

[QUOTE=sigtauenus;245603]http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_cobra.html

Not trying to be smart here, but it says you may be disqualified for COBRA benefits in a situation involving "gross misconduct."

Is refusing to show up for work considered "gross misconduct?"[/QUOTE



I would think not, since it is a LEGAL strike.
And $4.00/hr. Really. A college educated professional couldn't find a job back then that paid better?
And I am not going to work at a company because I don't like certain employees.? ***?
Give it a break ewrbased.
I work with certain individuals I don't like, but I am a professional, and do what has to be done, putting personal feelings aside. Doesn't mean I have to hang with them off duty on a layover.

I think it's interesting to see how many would hold the line, but I'm betting the majority that say they wouldn't cross, wouldn't let their child or wife die to prove a point.

That is the big difference between myself and you and the rest then. I have been on strike and seen people crossing to take my job, fleet qual'd scabs to come scurrying over to participate in a rebid of my airline so they could reap the benefits of our troubles. Forgive me if I have no sympathy for the scum that are scabs. What you don't think guys that were men and held the line had families and problems? Of course we knew what was worth fighting for.

I suppose the new generation may not have what it takes to hold the line. Everyone with a hangnail will have an excuse.

.....
I suppose the new generation may not have what it takes to hold the line. Everyone with a hangnail will have an excuse.

I think there's just a small bit of difference between a hang nail and someone being a quadrapalegic/having cancer and needing immediate care. Nice to see that some would let their own suffer. All I can say is it's one thing to stand up for morals, it's another to be plain ignorant about the outcome when the results can be so tragic.:rolleyes: I'd really like to hear what you'd say to our ex-CP. I think after they called the paramedics to clean you up off the floor (if anything would be left that is), you'd realize everything isn't as black and white as you think. I'm sure your family members are proud to know they'd come in last place between you and your job. Nice feeling isn't it? I pity them.........

[QUOTE=sigtauenus;245603]http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_cobra.html

Not trying to be smart here, but it says you may be disqualified for COBRA benefits in a situation involving "gross misconduct."

Is refusing to show up for work considered "gross misconduct?"[/QUOTE



I would think not, since it is a LEGAL strike.
And $4.00/hr. Really. A college educated professional couldn't find a job back then that paid better?
.........


When I was furloughed back in 90, with a masters degree in business, a military background, and plenty of other education, I couldn't land a job that paid more than $50 a day. I guess you must think high paying jobs are a dime a dozen, and believe me, I looked EVERYWHERE. Just because they are out their doesn't mean they're easy to get.

I would think not, since it is a LEGAL strike. And $4.00/hr. Really. A college educated professional couldn't find a job back then that paid better?
And I am not going to work at a company because I don't like certain employees.? ***?
Give it a break ewrbased.

Two observations: First, Cobra is short term, max 18 months (or until the company goes out of business, assuming the strike "works). Second, it seems odd that a pilot with such a disdain for scabs would be willing to accept them and fly for a company that employees them. Such highly principled people would do more for the cause by refusing to work besides such despicable people and to refuse employment at companies that hire scabs. Unless, of course, it would impact their own employment status and ability to care for their own families - then all bets are off.

Disclaimer: I am not and never will be a scab.

Guys come on. Enough of the sword fighting. You CANNOT say what you would do if you were presented with the heinous situation of having a terminally sick wife that you loved or even worse a terminally ill child that desperately needed your medical benefits. COBRA isn't cheap and finding a job that will pay all the bills while on strike while paying COBRA is difficult....thats IF they will give it to you with a pre-existing condition.
If you say otherwise frankly your a liar. And no I am not an advocate at all for crossing picket lines.

So why did you happily accept a job at a company with "scabs" if you hate them so much? Now you HAVE to work with them. Then again, I guess you'd screw yourself out of a job with UAL, FEDEX, CAL, NWA, etc.........:eek:

Because:
-CAL is a great airline "right now".
-Scabs are retiring fast
-Around 2.5 years to CA, then you don't have to work around them

ewrbased:

Great post!

The fact that we, CAL guys, are discussing this on a public forum is testament to the damage the scab has done at CAL and to the industry. I have a deep hatred for scabs, but hate no individual, on earth, personally. As I understand it, this is the first time in 25 years that our highly fragmented pilot group(Striker/Crawl-back/Scab/Frontier/P-Express/NY Air/etc) has a majority that don't belong to any of the aforementioned clubs. Expect a big vote opposite the customary scab co-signature to the next T/A. That will be a start towards a long-absent, decent CBA @ CAL. It's a great time to be here!

On another note;

Strike is not even an option for us. We don't even have ALPA forums, and I flew with a captain, non-scab, who actually sent a free-text to ops about another captain taxiing too slow. Pilots @ other ALPA carriers will not authorize strike wages to the good guys @ CAL for fear of a scabs getting strike assistance. If we had a good communication network, or even spoke to each other more, we could come up with much more effective ways to get what we deserve. A strike would be "Open-Time Heaven" for scabs.

I think it's interesting to see how many would hold the line, but I'm betting the majority that say they wouldn't cross, wouldn't let their child or wife die to prove a point.

I'd hope you're smart enough to take a job doing something else before it came to that. There are other things one can do besides fly if in desperate times. None of them require stabbing a fellow co-worker in the back. This situation should never occur if someone is even using their head in the slightest. Show me one person where this became an issue.

I'd hope you're smart enough to take a job doing something else before it came to that. There are other things one can do besides fly if in desperate times. None of them require stabbing a fellow co-worker in the back. This situation should never occur if someone is even using their head in the slightest. Show me one person where this became an issue.

I think a lot of the posters are missing the point here. Finding a job may not be the problem, but being able to afford medical insurance, making a house payment and keeping food on the table for your kids isn't quite as easy as many think. Sure, anyone can find a job, it's the insurance that's the killer. When CAL furloughed a bunch of its pilots a few years back, the union put together and sent a bunch of them money for health insurance to help them cover the costs. It's not as easy as it sounds guys, don't kid yourself. That being said, I still wouldn't cross since I'm ready if the ax should fall.

I think a lot of the posters are missing the point here. Finding a job may not be the problem, but being able to afford medical insurance, making a house payment and keeping food on the table for your kids isn't quite as easy as many think. Sure, anyone can find a job, it's the insurance that's the killer. When CAL furloughed a bunch of its pilots a few years back, the union put together and sent a bunch of them money for health insurance to help them cover the costs. It's not as easy as it sounds guys, don't kid yourself. That being said, I still wouldn't cross since I'm ready if the ax should fall.

Lets not forget the Express guys that got pushed out on the street to make room for you guys..............

I think a lot of the posters are missing the point here. Finding a job may not be the problem, but being able to afford medical insurance, making a house payment and keeping food on the table for your kids isn't quite as easy as many think.

That applies to guys during the first year at CAL as well.

Because:
-CAL is a great airline "right now".
-Scabs are retiring fast
-Around 2.5 years to CA, then you don't have to work around them

.......................


CAL has been a great airline for a long time, they just didn't have the management to bring it out of the doldrums. That has changed, and now we've had upper level management that KNOWs how to run an airline and handle finances. Larry Kellner is a mathematical/financial genius. He's also a people person and will give you his undivided attention if you have the opportunity to talk to him. CAL is indeed lucky to have him on board. I've even had DAL pilots tell me they wish he was over there! Scabs are retiring fast, but will still be with us for the next 25 years or so. A lot of very young "crossers" at EAL have come to CAL and are interspersed amongst our ranks. But hey, you do what it takes when you get on here, and have a good time doing it. Unfortunately, even after you make CA you sometimes still have a jerk in the other seat.........:p

I guess when it comes down to it, scabbing is better than having a plan b. I hope you have a plan b when an engine fails or worse. Your professional obligation is no different in either situation.

Lets not forget the Express guys that got pushed out on the street to make room for you guys..............

Or the ones who got to flow over to CAL...................... it worked BOTH ways. In the end, the Express pilots ended up with a much better deal......

That applies to guys during the first year at CAL as well.

You're right, and hopefully that will be one of the first changes in the new contract. I still can't figure out why it's that way..............:(

Or the ones who got to flow over to CAL...................... it worked BOTH ways. In the end, the Express pilots ended up with a much better deal......

yeah, sure they did, speaking of Larry being a numbers guy, why dont you go ask him why he released all of the XR's??????????????

I guess when it comes down to it, scabbing is better than having a plan b. I hope you have a plan b when an engine fails or worse. Your professional obligation is no different in either situation.

BINGO!!!

It isn't like a strike just "happends", you have years to plan for the event.

In my opinon a "strike fund" is a must if you are a member of any labor union.

Hopefully you'll never need to use it, but don't leave home with out it :D

yeah, sure they did, speaking of Larry being a numbers guy, why dont you go ask him why he released all of the XR's??????????????

That being said, it would be nice to have some more XRs on Branded. We're running quite a few LRs on routes that should be run by XRs. Maybe the chumps upstairs will be too busy counting beans again to notice more XRs missing when they release more planes.. :D :p

That being said, it would be nice to have some more XRs on Branded. We're running quite a few LRs on routes that should be run by XRs. Maybe the chumps upstairs will be too busy counting beans again to notice more XRs missing when they release more planes.. :D :p

haha I hope so..............

I think a lot of the posters are missing the point here. Finding a job may not be the problem, but being able to afford medical insurance, making a house payment and keeping food on the table for your kids isn't quite as easy as many think.

That would be poor financial planning on the part of the pilot. His company, whoever it may be, was not responsible for his situation. I took a 60% paycut to take this job to further my career. I had to make drastic changes in my way of life. I expect others to do the same, not find it as an excuse to cross a line. No one is saying it's easy. It shouldn't be. There's a reason why people "Plan" a family. Some have it jump up on them like my sister just did with triplets. Point is it isn't easy but many have had to deal with it. Many were in that same situation. I know a few who lost their pensions right as retiring and had to find other jobs. They still would never use that as an excuse to screw over a group they worked along side with. No one has said yet things are easy. They've said however that it is your burden to bare. Don't go shafting the rest because of your personal situation. Your problems need to stay that way. There is always a way you just have to be willing to find it. Those that cross the line aren't willing. They might think they are and try to use that to their defense but in reality there are others that made it happen and they could have too. They chose not to. Out of thousands of pilots that caught it hard why do they think they are the only ones with problems? No I haven't been in the industry very long but I do make a whopping $20k. Don't think I have to put up with issues? I still wouldn't cross a line and I have every right to despise those that do.

How many of you have completely lost your paycheck as a pilot and had to immediately go out and secure a job to replace it...for ANY reason?

How many of you have completely lost your paycheck as a pilot and had to immediately go out and secure a job to replace it...for ANY reason?

Um, that would be me. Why do you ask?

FlyerJosh, if he's reading the thread would be another, IndyAirGuy, AirFish, probably some Mesaba guys on here, Furloughed UAL, DAL, USAir, CAL, American, Northwest, Midway, Pan Am, anybody that got hose at Polar not too long ago, as well as MANY other guys that surf this site as well.

Um, that would be me. Why do you ask? FlyerJosh, if he's reading the thread would be another, IndyAirGuy, AirFish, probably some Mesaba guys on here, Furloughed UAL, DAL, USAir, CAL, Northwest, Midway, Pan Am, guys that surf this site.

Ok good you took the bait. How easy was it for you to secure another job asap to, as much as possible, replace your previous pilot salary? TRUTHFULLY.

Ok good you took the bait. How easy was it for you to secure another job asap to, as much as possible, replace your previous pilot salary? TRUTHFULLY.

To get a flying job, easy. Furloughed one week, got the call for TWO separate class dates a week later. To replace my salary, depending. I was in a peculiar situation. Didn't know if I was going go be recalled sooner or later. If I would have exercised one of the options I had, pay would have been equal. Had I pursued corporate gigs, would have been an increase.

If you think you are being clever and going to follow up with the question whether or not I would scab or not, try again. In a former life at my high school/college job(non-aviation) I walked a picket line. My dad walked a picket line at UAL.

Do you have a point you are trying to make? Are you a scab, son of scab, or just a scab sympathizer?

Comair is a business partner with (if not wholly owned by) Delta. Since Comair and Delta both are ALPA, is a Delta pilot who goes to work during a Comair strike considered a scab? Especially since the article says Delta (and NWA--another ALPA carrier!) was accomodating the Comair passengers during the strike.


How far does this scab thing go? Do all ALPA pilots have to strike if one group strikes?

I'll (finally) answer the question:

The MEC of the "struck" airline clearly defines what is and what is not struck work.

There are 2 retired Comair pilots on "the list" because they ignored this direction...

In the case of the Comair strike, the Delta MEC told management that they would not fly any "extra-sections" or "replacement" flying during the Comair strike. FWIW, management didn't try to schedule any.


Kevin

Whoa! I thought I would just get a PDF attachment and that would be the end of it! I had no idea this firestorm would erupt....BUT I UNDERSTAND!!!

Now...does anyone have a link to the list that works? It has been removed from the frac pilot website. Or does anyone have the PDF attachment?

Why has it been removed anyway?

Good question, I tried showing the list to my wife and the link didn't work.

Thought it might be a good idea to read her in on the consequences before I even get hired so she knows what we're getting into. Makes putting that money into the strike fund a little easier to explain as well as a clear understanding of what I would or would not do if a strike occurs down the line.

When the link didn't work a couple days ago I assumed with it being posted here we had generated enough traffic that the bandwidth timed out for it, but I haven't been able to catch it since then. I assume the pdf was pulled, but don't know why. So, anybody still have the list that I could PM my email to?

I'd really like to hear what you'd say to our ex-CP. I think after they called the paramedics to clean you up off the floor (if anything would be left that is), you'd realize everything isn't as black and white as you think. I'm sure your family members are proud to know they'd come in last place between you and your job. Nice feeling isn't it? I pity them.........

First of all I don't speak to scabs so this hypothetical conversation you wish to create would not happen. If he is like all the other yellow bellied scabs I have met in my life he will crawl away when confronted with his actions.

It appears you might be suffering a bit of the "Stockholm Syndrome". Been around too many scabs for too long and you now think that is OK. Don't feel bad, Patty Hearst suffered the same fate. You might be able to recover.

Here is a tidbit you might be missing. A strike does not happen overnight. You get plenty of warning that it is coming. You take measures to assure your finances are in order and you preserve for your family. If you don't take these measures and find yourself needing to cross for financial reasons then it is no excuse. You were given fair warning. When looking at the radar would you penetrate an area of weather at its strongest point? If you do and you crash, damage the airplane or injure people that is YOUR fault. Same with crossing the picket line. You know the outcome of doing it so you take actions to avoid it. You cross you pay. That is it. No more on this from me.

Finally, CAL puts a SCAB in the CP OFFICE?????? That is rich. Confirming the legend.

Lets not forget the Express guys that got pushed out on the street to make room for you guys..............

Now now Saabster lest we forget the leapfrogging in '95 with an immediate furlough that sent plenty of '90 hires to the street and Guam while brand new to CAL Express Pilots sat comfortably in the big jets in the US. Some of the CAL Pilots that went back to Express in '95 had to have their mailboxes moved into the CPO to avoid having paychecks stolen, misc fluids and solids deposited in them ect.

These very Express Pilots that did this are now over here having benefited from the flow through as it went up.

I know the current Express guys feel jilted as the flow through is now a joke now but your predecessors benefited greatly from it.

CAL has been a great airline for a long time, they just didn't have the management to bring it out of the doldrums. That has changed, and now we've had upper level management that KNOWs how to run an airline and handle finances. Larry Kellner is a mathematical/financial genius. He's also a people person and will give you his undivided attention if you have the opportunity to talk to him. CAL is indeed lucky to have him on board. I've even had DAL pilots tell me they wish he was over there! Scabs are retiring fast, but will still be with us for the next 25 years or so. A lot of very young "crossers" at EAL have come to CAL and are interspersed amongst our ranks. But hey, you do what it takes when you get on here, and have a good time doing it. Unfortunately, even after you make CA you sometimes still have a jerk in the other seat.........:p

Are we talking about the same Larry? This guy is a bean counter with the personality of bean-dip. Are you publicly sucking up for a possible position in management?

First of all I don't speak to scabs so this hypothetical conversation you wish to create would not happen. If he is like all the other yellow bellied scabs I have met in my life he will crawl away when confronted with his actions.

It appears you might be suffering a bit of the "Stockholm Syndrome". Been around too many scabs for too long and you now think that is OK. Don't feel bad, Patty Hearst suffered the same fate. You might be able to recover.

Here is a tidbit you might be missing. A strike does not happen overnight. You get plenty of warning that it is coming. You take measures to assure your finances are in order and you preserve for your family. If you don't take these measures and find yourself needing to cross for financial reasons then it is no excuse. You were given fair warning. When looking at the radar would you penetrate an area of weather at its strongest point? If you do and you crash, damage the airplane or injure people that is YOUR fault. Same with crossing the picket line. You know the outcome of doing it so you take actions to avoid it. You cross you pay. That is it. No more on this from me.

Finally, CAL puts a SCAB in the CP OFFICE?????? That is rich. Confirming the legend.

Excellent post.

Not only do we have Scabs in the CPO, we had one running our Union during the completely unnecessary Contract '02 time frame.

To get a flying job, easy. Furloughed one week, got the call for TWO separate class dates a week later. To replace my salary, depending. I was in a peculiar situation. Didn't know if I was going go be recalled sooner or later. If I would have exercised one of the options I had, pay would have been equal. Had I pursued corporate gigs, would have been an increase.

If you think you are being clever and going to follow up with the question whether or not I would scab or not, try again. In a former life at my high school/college job(non-aviation) I walked a picket line. My dad walked a picket line at UAL.

Do you have a point you are trying to make? Are you a scab, son of scab, or just a scab sympathizer?

Well I hate to burst your bubble there Hoss but I am NOT going to follow up with a question to be "clever" and no I am not, never will be and do not agree with scabs nor am I the son of a scab. It was a simple question as to how easy it is to secure a job when on strike. So, thanks for the answer. Oh and I AM the son of a 19 year Western, then Delta union member who was proud of being a union member and is proud that his son is as well. What else have you got???

First of all I don't speak to scabs so this hypothetical conversation you wish to create would not happen. If he is like all the other yellow bellied scabs I have met in my life he will crawl away when confronted with his actions.

It appears you might be suffering a bit of the "Stockholm Syndrome". Been around too many scabs for too long and you now think that is OK. Don't feel bad, Patty Hearst suffered the same fate. You might be able to recover.

Here is a tidbit you might be missing. A strike does not happen overnight. You get plenty of warning that it is coming. You take measures to assure your finances are in order and you preserve for your family. If you don't take these measures and find yourself needing to cross for financial reasons then it is no excuse. You were given fair warning. When looking at the radar would you penetrate an area of weather at its strongest point? If you do and you crash, damage the airplane or injure people that is YOUR fault. Same with crossing the picket line. You know the outcome of doing it so you take actions to avoid it. You cross you pay. That is it. No more on this from me.

Finally, CAL puts a SCAB in the CP OFFICE?????? That is rich. Confirming the legend.

Who do you work for? I hope for all our sakes it isn't CAL. Is your airline, (assuming you work for one), scab free? And no, I'm not suffering from the stockholm syndrome at all. I'm just realistic.............. Since you know it all, what would you say to the guys who ALPA told to go back to work at EAL, then wouldn't back them when their name showed up on the list? He was TOLD by ALPA to go back to work and now he's on the list. This guy wouldn't have crossed a picket line to save his own life. Maybe you're not quite as "knowledgable" as you think. I'm still waiting for all the WMD we were supposed to find too............:rolleyes:

yeah, sure they did, speaking of Larry being a numbers guy, why dont you go ask him why he released all of the XR's??????????????

Probably to make room for all the new 737's and 787's coming on property. It's time to get the bigger planes back in EWR. It's expensive real estate and I don't think bogging down the airport with MORE small jets is the answer. How much do you think it costs to have a couple of 777's, 767's, 757's and 737's waiting in line for 25 RJ's to take off when some of them are getting ready to go on a 15 hour flight? My bet is the RJ's were getting way to expensive. JMHO

Are we talking about the same Larry? This guy is a bean counter with the personality of bean-dip. Are you publicly sucking up for a possible position in management?

Have you ever talked to Larry? He's a heck of a lot smarter than you seem to think. Afterall, if you were so smart and talented, why don't we see your name as the CEO? Personally I think if we hired the pope to run CAL he wouldn't be holy enough for guys like you........... :rolleyes:

I will ask again: What does ALPA (or the in-house unions) have to say about medical benefits while on strike? Do they provide something, do the airlines continue your coverage, or some other alternative?

Who do you work for? I hope for all our sakes it isn't CAL. Is your airline, (assuming you work for one), scab free? And no, I'm not suffering from the stockholm syndrome at all. I'm just realistic.............. Since you know it all, what would you say to the guys who ALPA told to go back to work at EAL, then wouldn't back them when their name showed up on the list? He was TOLD by ALPA to go back to work and now he's on the list. This guy wouldn't have crossed a picket line to save his own life. Maybe you're not quite as "knowledgable" as you think. I'm still waiting for all the WMD we were supposed to find too............:rolleyes:

Last time I checked chemical and biological weapons would most certainly be considered weapons of mass destruction. Lets not just limit the argument to nuclear weapons.....but that is for a whole 'nother thread....or even message board

This discussion, as do all involving this topic, has the intellectual content one might find in a pub along the docks of New Jersey. Is it any wonder that airline pilots as a group have descended to such low levels of respect in the eyes of the public and more importantly the eyes of airline management?

Does this list include the names of people who flew for New York Air, People Express, Air Tran, Jet Blue or any of the other startups in the past few decades that have undermined this industry? Does this list include the names of those who CHOSE to go to work for an airline infested with people they regard as insidious? Does your list include the Delta pilots who enjoyed such a career boost from the demise of their Eastern "brothers?" Does it include the United pilots for their treatment of their Frontier "brothers?" Does it include the American pilots for their treatment of their TWA "brothers?" Does the list include the officers and officials of ALPA who so blatantly disregarded the future of those who paid their salaries and sat quietly by while their pensions disappeared? Does it include the name of every person who has agreed to fly a regional jet for starvation wages thereby undermining the careers of all airline pilots including their own?

Is it possible to view the position of refusing to cross a picket line in order to get medical treatment for your dying wife as honorable? I'll bet that lucky woman just kneels down and gives thanks everyday for her good fortune to be married to such a principled man! By the way, suggesting the alternative of "Cobra" coverage reveals the writer to either be too young to realize that such a thing didn't always exist or just a level stupidly that defies reason.

The right of a person to choose to work or to choose not to work in any situation is part of the very basis this country was founded on. The existence of such a term as "scab" and other nefarious parts of the union movement have a history based on principles far less inspiring. To all of you who believe that the term "scab" or the existence of a "scab list" has any importance to anyone except yourselves I would suggest that you make every attempt to get a life. Your efforts to find ways to further fracture this industry is far worse than anything you believe anyone else has done.

Perhaps a reasonably intelligent discussion is needed on why market economic forces as well as the financial structure of today's airline industry makes a "strike" an incredibly stupid act. This ain't the auto industry or the docks and ALPA's inability to deal with the reality of what this industry became after deregulation has been the main reason for the downfall of all pilot's future. Maybe a list of intelligent, reasoned and principled airline pilots would be more appropriate. I suspect it would be much easier to keep maintained and if printed back and front would fit in your wallet!

I'm still waiting for all the WMD we were supposed to find too............:rolleyes:

I agree with almost all of your posts on this topic, but the misc darts you have thrown throughout the thread (WMD, Reagan, Republicans, etc), are distracting and not necessary to prove your point.

This discussion, as do all involving this topic, has the intellectual content one might find in a pub along the docks of New Jersey. Is it any wonder that airline pilots as a group have descended to such low levels of respect in the eyes of the public and more importantly the eyes of airline management?

Does this list include the names of people who flew for New York Air, People Express, Air Tran, Jet Blue or any of the other startups in the past few decades that have undermined this industry? Does this list include the names of those who CHOSE to go to work for an airline infested with people they regard as insidious? Does your list include the Delta pilots who enjoyed such a career boost from the demise of their Eastern "brothers?" Does it include the United pilots for their treatment of their Frontier "brothers?" Does it include the American pilots for their treatment of their TWA "brothers?" Does the list include the officers and officials of ALPA who so blatantly disregarded the future of those who paid their salaries and sat quietly by while their pensions disappeared? Does it include the name of every person who has agreed to fly a regional jet for starvation wages thereby undermining the careers of all airline pilots including their own?

Is it possible to view the position of refusing to cross a picket line in order to get medical treatment for your dying wife as honorable? I'll bet that lucky woman just kneels down and gives thanks everyday for her good fortune to be married to such a principled man! By the way, suggesting the alternative of "Cobra" coverage reveals the writer to either be too young to realize that such a thing didn't always exist or just a level stupidly that defies reason.

The right of a person to choose to work or to choose not to work in any situation is part of the very basis this country was founded on. The existence of such a term as "scab" and other nefarious parts of the union movement have a history based on principles far less inspiring. To all of you who believe that the term "scab" or the existence of a "scab list" has any importance to anyone except yourselves I would suggest that you make every attempt to get a life. Your efforts to find ways to further fracture this industry is far worse than anything you believe anyone else has done.

Perhaps a reasonably intelligent discussion is needed on why market economic forces as well as the financial structure of today's airline industry makes a "strike" an incredibly stupid act. This ain't the auto industry or the docks and ALPA's inability to deal with the reality of what this industry became after deregulation has been the main reason for the downfall of all pilot's future. Maybe a list of intelligent, reasoned and principled airline pilots would be more appropriate. I suspect it would be much easier to keep maintained and if printed back and front would fit in your wallet!

Well look at the big brain on Brad!!! Just because these threads don't live up to your definition of a civilized discussion of union topics devoid of "off the docks of NJ" verbage doesn't mean you need to insult the intelligence of ALL the members of this board. Let me say that while I may throw some below the belt punches to certain folks on here, I feel that there is, for the most part, a great level of intelligence within the large group of pilots in this online community and in the end we are all PILOTS.
Your country club type thinking about how we discuss certain topics might not fly too well with many folks here. Ok there, thats my zinger to you. Welcome to the boards :>

Who do you work for? I hope for all our sakes it isn't CAL. Is your airline, (assuming you work for one), scab free? And no, I'm not suffering from the Stockholm syndrome at all. I'm just realistic.............. Since you know it all, what would you say to the guys who ALPA told to go back to work at EAL, then wouldn't back them when their name showed up on the list? He was TOLD by ALPA to go back to work and now he's on the list. This guy wouldn't have crossed a picket line to save his own life. Maybe you're not quite as "knowledgeable" as you think. I'm still waiting for all the WMD we were supposed to find too............:rolleyes:

ewrbased:

I have worked for a scab-free airline and it is a beautiful thing. You cite some very abstract situations that might justify scabbing; one time anomalies that remind me of the old, "all I did was give one guy a blow-job and now every-one's calling me gay". That guy was Frank Lorenzo, the scabs swallowed and that's what they will be forever. Not to berate the scenarios that you've mentioned, but they are not the norm. The scabs hired during the CAL strike are the most selfish, incompetent sociopaths I've every had the opportunity to despise. They've given the company everything they've ever asked for, which is why CAL has perpetually had the worst contracts in the biz for the past 25 years, including the over-glorified one from 1999. They are the reason IAH guys won't work with EWR guys, the reason we've got guys flying 777's for $29/hr with no health insurance, the reason UAL, NWA and DAL ,in bankruptcy, still have better contracts than us. The list goes on. It's easy to work with and be cordial to scabs, for the sake of safety and mental peace, but don't ever forget what they've cost you and would cost you again for 40 pieces of anything. I applaud the guys @ CAL for turning Lorenzo's POS into the jewel of the industry, but CAL management has been getting more than they pay for. Scab labor, by definition, is cheap.

This discussion, as do all involving this topic, has the intellectual content one might find in a pub along the docks of New Jersey. Is it any wonder that airline pilots as a group have descended to such low levels of respect in the eyes of the public and more importantly the eyes of airline management?

Does this list include the names of people who flew for New York Air, People Express, Air Tran, Jet Blue or any of the other startups in the past few decades that have undermined this industry? Does this list include the names of those who CHOSE to go to work for an airline infested with people they regard as insidious? Does your list include the Delta pilots who enjoyed such a career boost from the demise of their Eastern "brothers?" Does it include the United pilots for their treatment of their Frontier "brothers?" Does it include the American pilots for their treatment of their TWA "brothers?" Does the list include the officers and officials of ALPA who so blatantly disregarded the future of those who paid their salaries and sat quietly by while their pensions disappeared? Does it include the name of every person who has agreed to fly a regional jet for starvation wages thereby undermining the careers of all airline pilots including their own?

Is it possible to view the position of refusing to cross a picket line in order to get medical treatment for your dying wife as honorable? I'll bet that lucky woman just kneels down and gives thanks everyday for her good fortune to be married to such a principled man! By the way, suggesting the alternative of "Cobra" coverage reveals the writer to either be too young to realize that such a thing didn't always exist or just a level stupidly that defies reason.

The right of a person to choose to work or to choose not to work in any situation is part of the very basis this country was founded on. The existence of such a term as "scab" and other nefarious parts of the union movement have a history based on principles far less inspiring. To all of you who believe that the term "scab" or the existence of a "scab list" has any importance to anyone except yourselves I would suggest that you make every attempt to get a life. Your efforts to find ways to further fracture this industry is far worse than anything you believe anyone else has done.

Perhaps a reasonably intelligent discussion is needed on why market economic forces as well as the financial structure of today's airline industry makes a "strike" an incredibly stupid act. This ain't the auto industry or the docks and ALPA's inability to deal with the reality of what this industry became after deregulation has been the main reason for the downfall of all pilot's future. Maybe a list of intelligent, reasoned and principled airline pilots would be more appropriate. I suspect it would be much easier to keep maintained and if printed back and front would fit in your wallet!

No. They did not cross a picket line. No they did not fly struck work or CROSS a picket line. I am definitly not the most militant of union workers. However, every scab a CAL I've talked to has an excuse or reason. The whole point is solidarity within a group to keep the management (who works for the shareholders, not us) from abusing the workers and sacrificing safety for the almight dollar. I agree with your point about all of us having better principles. Including the scabs who went against those principles that striking pilots were trying to stand up for. BTW, you should look at the list before you comment on it. It's very simple. Did they fly or train during a strike? Period. On another note. We may all be pilots. We don't all work for the same companies. Therefore, I don't care if people are willing to fly for less or more etc unless it affects my pocket. We don't have a national union, otherwise we would have the power to fix pilot groups across the board. Until we do, management and the government will continue to abuse their POWER to impose their will wherever they can for MONEY....I appreciate your opinions above. Just disagree with the viewpoint of forget the past. Have a nice day.

ewrbased:

I have worked for a scab-free airline and it is a beautiful thing. You cite some very abstract situations that might justify scabbing; one time anomalies that remind me of the old, "all I did was give one guy a blow-job and now every-one's calling me gay". That guy was Frank Lorenzo, the scabs swallowed and that's what they will be forever. Not to berate the scenarios that you've mentioned, but they are not the norm. The scabs hired during the CAL strike are the most selfish, incompetent sociopaths I've every had the opportunity to despise. They've given the company everything they've ever asked for, which is why CAL has perpetually had the worst contracts in the biz for the past 25 years, including the over-glorified one from 1999. They are the reason IAH guys won't work with EWR guys, the reason we've got guys flying 777's for $29/hr with no health insurance, the reason UAL, NWA and DAL ,in bankruptcy, still have better contracts than us. The list goes on. It's easy to work with and be cordial to scabs, for the sake of safety and mental peace, but don't ever forget what they've cost you and would cost you again for 40 pieces of anything. I applaud the guys @ CAL for turning Lorenzo's POS into the jewel of the industry, but CAL management has been getting more than they pay for. Scab labor, by definition, is cheap.

Second the motion. Contract '08----homerun or nothing.

But I still need the list!

Does that mean Comair ticketed passengers would get reassigned to Delta aircraft, or that Delta pilots would fly Comair aircraft?



No. Comair technically has no passengers of their own. The passengers are all Delta passengers. Comair simply provides the "Connection" service.

Well I hate to burst your bubble there Hoss but I am NOT going to follow up with a question to be "clever" and no I am not, never will be and do not agree with scabs nor am I the son of a scab. It was a simple question as to how easy it is to secure a job when on strike. So, thanks for the answer. Oh and I AM the son of a 19 year Western, then Delta union member who was proud of being a union member and is proud that his son is as well. What else have you got???

Well "hoss", *** were you asking for then? You came off sounding like it was OK to scab in your line of questioning and this whole "you took the bait" B.S.

"What else have you got?" Have you ever walked, whether or not it was in aviation or not? Have you ever stood up and chose not to crap on your fellow workers? Again, jobs are out there, why were you asking with that derogatory tone? Why were you using words like "good, you took the bait"?, Hoss.

Second the motion. Contract '08----homerun or nothing.

I hope so...............

Who do you work for? I hope for all our sakes it isn't CAL. Is your airline, (assuming you work for one), scab free? And no, I'm not suffering from the stockholm syndrome at all. I'm just realistic.............. Since you know it all, what would you say to the guys who ALPA told to go back to work at EAL, then wouldn't back them when their name showed up on the list? He was TOLD by ALPA to go back to work and now he's on the list. This guy wouldn't have crossed a picket line to save his own life. Maybe you're not quite as "knowledgable" as you think. I'm still waiting for all the WMD we were supposed to find too............:rolleyes:

Who do I work for???? UAL. So, yes I have walked a picket line, seen scabs try to take my job and yes you are suffering from some type of man love for a scab.

I do believe that with your attitude towards scabs I have nothing else to discuss with you. Enjoy your life with the dregs of aviation that you hold so highly.

You are truly in the minority on this one.

Who do I work for???? UAL. So, yes I have walked a picket line, seen scabs try to take my job and yes you are suffering from some type of man love for a scab.

I do believe that with your attitude towards scabs I have nothing else to discuss with you. Enjoy your life with the dregs of aviation that you hold so highly.

You are truly in the minority on this one.

Oh yeah, the airline that used to have stickers on their bags that said "one less airline can make a difference" (a dig at CAL maybe?), and tie tacs with the "screw" on it. Yeah, I remember your airline...........who's director of training was a scab.............. As far as I know, quite a few "dregs" are at UAL (and yes I do have a few friends over there). I'm glad to see you have a talented CEO at your airline. You guys certainly deserve the best..........:eek::rolleyes: My hope is that UAL and CAL never get together. I'd hate to see our fine airline pulled down and I know a LOT of pilots who'd go on strike to prevent that from ever happening............... How's that for a dreg????

starting to look like the regional forum...................I like it

EWR speaks for himself. UAL was an outstanding airline before previous managements screwed it up so badly. This clown voted yes on our last contract and is the ranking Hitler youth on our current uniform committee. He doesn't speak for most of us and frankly is an embarrassment.

Stick to what you know best Karl and go bug somebody for not wearing his hat.


757,

Agreed. There are 10% in every group. Just rare to see someone with so much love for scabs. I know the real CAL pilots are good guys and gals. One of my good friends was a DC10 Captain in LAX when the CAL strike happened. He was a true stand up guy and unfortunately lost his own battle with cancer. I never heard him mention one time that he should have crossed. He did however have some great scab stories.

Best of luck to all of us and glad to know that ewrbased is a mgmnt troll. As to the uniform, I have not seen my hat in a long time......I think I left it atop my A -plan that has also gone missing. Coincidence?;)

As far as I know, quite a few "dregs" are at UAL (and yes I do have a few friends over there).

Yes we have the dregs. In fact I have a handy yellow book (that does not exist :rolleyes: :D)that list them all if you want to cross reference your "friends". I keep track and believe 99% of all UAL pilots do too.

One of the great things is that the majority of our pilots were not on the property during the strike. However, the teaching methods and venom towards the scabs has not stopped. Nothing better than seeing a F/O pull out a scab book.

Oh yeah, the airline that used to have stickers on their bags that said "one less airline can make a difference" (a dig at CAL maybe?), and tie tacs with the "screw" on it. Yeah, I remember your airline...........who's director of training was a scab.............. As far as I know, quite a few "dregs" are at UAL (and yes I do have a few friends over there). I'm glad to see you have a talented CEO at your airline. You guys certainly deserve the best..........:eek::rolleyes: My hope is that UAL and CAL never get together. I'd hate to see our fine airline pulled down and I know a LOT of pilots who'd go on strike to prevent that from ever happening............... How's that for a dreg????

I want to work at CAL possibly more than any other place yet your post makes me want to almost go elsewhere.

I want to work at CAL possibly more than any other place yet your post makes me want to almost go elsewhere.

I would love to work for CAL as well, but it will be interesting to see where they stand in the next 5 years, with the emergence of DAL, and UAL out of bankruptcy I am wondering just how popular CAL will be in the future. I have talked to a few CAL F/O's that are trying to get on with DAL, SWA, UPS etc..... I wonder how many will go from DAL to CAL............

I would love to work for CAL as well, but it will be interesting to see where they stand in the next 5 years, with the emergence of DAL, and UAL out of bankruptcy I am wondering just how popular CAL will be in the future. I have talked to a few CAL F/O's that are trying to get on with DAL, SWA, UPS etc..... I wonder how many will go from DAL to CAL............

Recently I've heard of quite a few that are leaving due to the lack of insurance and the better pay at Delta. Might be a mistake but my crystal ball has never worked properly in the first place. Got hired here in '87 and couldn't wait to get out. Just by dumb luck I stuck around and its a lot better than it used to be. The crappy thing is this Pilot group has traditionally settled for a second rate contract even before Lorenzo showed up. Its part of the sub-culture that many of us are trying to change and maybe someday it will be a great place to work.

One of my good friends was a DC10 Captain in LAX when the CAL strike happened. He was a true stand up guy and unfortunately lost his own battle with cancer.

It wasn't John Sande was it?

Lambourne,

How many pilots, listed on your list, are still on the property ?

How many total pilots on the property..just curious..thanks

FF

EWR speaks for himself. UAL was an outstanding airline before previous managements screwed it up so badly. This clown voted yes on our last contract and is the ranking Hitler youth on our current uniform committee. He doesn't speak for most of us and frankly is an embarrassment.

Stick to what you know best Karl and go bug somebody for not wearing his hat.

So I'm a clown for voting for the contract the UNION presented to us and asked us to support? Well, a LOT of the pilots who were furloughed with me, and many that weren't who are junior to me voted YES. I guess that your NO voted meant YOU WERE NOT A UNION supporter, right? I'm an embarrassment for wearing my uniform properly and treating people with respect? It sounds like you are the clown, not me. And what may I ask are you doing for your union other than bltching all the time? At least I volunteer to do something rather than sit back and call the union volunteers "clowns". Tell you what, I'll step down so your leadership qualities can be recognized for what they are. My guess is that you'll find some whiney @ss excuse as to why you can't do it. Wanna bet? I'll hand over the reigns as soon as you send your resume in. (I'll get my resignation papers typed up this afternoon, okay? My guess is I'll be waiting a LONG TIME for the union to receive your resume.........):rolleyes: OBTW, since you know who I am, how about posting your name so we can see who's hiding behind your "757 driver"? Or do you prefer to remain annonymous so you can cast all the stones you want without fear of anyone knowing the real you?

So I'm a clown for voting for the contract the UNION presented to us and asked us to support? Well, a LOT of the pilots who were furloughed with me, and many that weren't who are junior to me voted YES. I guess that your NO voted meant YOU WERE NOT A UNION supporter, right? I'm an embarrassment for wearing my uniform properly and treating people with respect? It sounds like you are the clown, not me. And what may I ask are you doing for your union other than bltching all the time? At least I volunteer to do something rather than sit back and call the union volunteers "clowns". Tell you what, I'll step down so your leadership qualities can be recognized for what they are. My guess is that you'll find some whiney @ss excuse as to why you can't do it. Wanna bet? I'll hand over the reigns as soon as you send your resume in. (I'll get my resignation papers typed up this afternoon, okay? My guess is I'll be waiting a LONG TIME for the union to receive your resume.........):rolleyes: OBTW, since you know who I am, how about posting your name so we can see who's hiding behind your "757 driver"? Or do you prefer to remain annonymous so you can cast all the stones you want without fear of anyone knowing the real you?

Yes Karl you are an embarrassment along with the other 52% who voted yes. If you'll notice, the old Union reps that brought us C '02 have been run out on a rail and the architect who designed it, (Tom Stivala the traitor), has taken a job with management to negotiate directly against us. Whose the bigger fool now?

Why can't Pilots like you who made probably the biggest mistake in their lives just fess up and say you were wrong?

That last contract was a joke and you fell for it. As for the Uniform thing, thanks for stepping up and volunteering. I don't see a great need for a uniform committee as we don't even get ours paid for or an allowance to dry clean them so what's the point?

Look me up on the staffing if you care to. EWR 757 Captain hired in '87.

Yes Karl you are an embarrassment along with the other 52% who voted yes. If you'll notice, the old Union reps that brought us C '02 have been run out on a rail and the architect who designed it, (Tom Stivala the traitor), has taken a job with management to negotiate directly against us. Whose the bigger fool now?

Why can't Pilots like you who made probably the biggest mistake in their lives just fess up and say you were wrong?

That last contract was a joke and you fell for it. As for the Uniform thing, thanks for stepping up and volunteering. I don't see a great need for a uniform committee as we don't even get ours paid for or an allowance to dry clean them so what's the point?

Look me up on the staffing if you care to. EWR 757 Captain hired in '87.

Apparently you aren't quite the "brain" you set out to be. If you were so smart as indicated by your NO vote, you'd be playing in LAS and winning enough that an airline career wouldn't be a thought. I'm sure you fly with an awful lot of us "embarrassments", don't you? I talked in length with some of our most senior "non scab" pilots, and they convinced me how to vote. Sorry that offends you so much. As I said about the uniform committee, (and I was right), I KNEW you'd make a pitiful excuse as to why you wouldn't do it. Gee, big surprise there, eh? I'm sure since you're making around $170 an hour (or close to it), approx. $15,000 a month... that you can't afford $15 or $20 a month to keep your uniform looking nice. Once again, no surprise there, eh? But then again, it looks like you've gotten the scab mentality down........it's all about "me, me, me ". As for your choice to remain annonymous...............once again no big surprise. I'm sure you're the only 756 CA hired in 87. Real funny, but again, no surprise. My guess is you are a scab. And no, I don't think voting YES on the last contract was the biggest mistake of my life. That could probably be bantering with you on this forum. :eek::eek::p

Lambourne,

How many pilots, listed on your list, are still on the property ?

How many total pilots on the property..just curious..thanks

FF

flifast,

There are roughly 800 names in the book. That 800 included the guys that crossed that were already here and the filthy rotten good for nothing fleet qual scabs that took the job off the street. Of those 800 only about 200 are left on the property.

I believe our junior man on the list is around 7500 right now.

The following is directly from the "yellow book".

"The spectrum of the individuals listed varies widely, but one common thread runs through them all. They are SCABS. We must never forget what they did in 1985 and we must never forgive them for their actions. To socialize with these pilots is to condone their repulsive behavior. Most who SCABBED had their "reasons", but no reason to SCAB is EVER acceptable. While the SCABS intentions were to save THEIR airline, their actions nearly destroyed OUR airline. Tolerance and compassion are important virtues that SCABS do not deserve."

As I said about the uniform committee, (and I was right), I KNEW you'd make a pitiful excuse as to why you wouldn't do it. Gee, big surprise there, eh? I'm sure since you're making around $170 an hour (or close to it), approx. $15,000 a month... that you can't afford $15 or $20 a month to keep your uniform looking nice. Once again, no surprise there, eh?


I hate to get off topic here but....Is the uniform cmmte really THAT important? Why would one need to submit a resume to work on the uniform cmmte? What are the qualifications needed to do the job? The first four volume DVD set sof "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Not that there is anything wrong with owning it, tic.

If I have an incident am I going to call the uniform cmmte? Need help with a medical issue?

Also, when did ALPA reps become in love with mgmnt? That would hardly give me the warm and fuzzy feeling to know someone like you was representing my interest to the company. A rubber stamp is never good.

I'm sure since you're making around $170 an hour (or close to it), approx. $15,000 a month... that you can't afford $15 or $20 a month to keep your uniform looking nice.

This just reinforces my point. Most respectable airlines actually pay for your uniform and give you a cleaning allowance. You have made it abundantly clear that you are just thrilled to be employed by Continental even though they treat you like a red-headed step-child.

At some point you will be in the front office and will continue the fine tradition of defending the company no matter what the cost.

I wish you luck my friend as you are a ****-poor example of what a good airline Pilot should be. What's your opinion on our previous Union reps and Tom Stivala turning Benedict Arnold? Oh I forgot, that contract was completely necessary or we would have just folded up shop and went out of business, what a sap.

Here's some free advice:

Our management isn't always right and you should question their motives from time to time.

Good Luck

Absolutely correct, every scab has a reason, and as far as the ones who claim to be penitent , they have already proven their trustworthiness. Or should I say lack thereof. The history of such individuals at airlines that have had multiple strikes is that a scab will almost always scab again, Lambourne is correct as is his yellow book. Hold scabs accountable forever.

Lambourne,

How many pilots, listed on your list, are still on the property ?

How many total pilots on the property..just curious..thanks

FF

They're leaving fast. Of course not fast enough. Just checked the list, 101 of our 199 retirements next year are scabs. No comment on age 60 for real pilots, but glad to see these 101 go b4 the rules change.

I posted it. It worked. Then the link was removed. Is it too large or what? Let me know and I will post it so people can see it. Thanks

I hate to get off topic here but....Is the uniform cmmte really THAT important? Why would one need to submit a resume to work on the uniform cmmte? What are the qualifications needed to do the job? The first four volume DVD set sof "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy"? Not that there is anything wrong with owning it, tic.

If I have an incident am I going to call the uniform cmmte? Need help with a medical issue?

Also, when did ALPA reps become in love with mgmnt? That would hardly give me the warm and fuzzy feeling to know someone like you was representing my interest to the company. A rubber stamp is never good.

Apparently it's important enough that they have the committee, and such that I felt having a decent vendor with quality uniforms was something our union/pilots/airline needed. I realize a LOT of pilots think looking like pigs completes the "airline look", but I'm not one of them......sorry. Our union spent a few weeks negotiating for "hostages", yet in CAL's history I don't know of a pilot who's ever been held hostage due to a war. Waste of time isn't it? But the union and company think it's important. Go figure. Maybe there's more to being a union member and knowing what's going on than just simply flying a plane. Like everything, it's easy to sit on the sidelines and critisize, but like voting, unless you've pulled the lever, or are working for your union, all the bltching in the world doesn't mean a whole lot. And for the record, I'm probably a whole lot more involved with getting our pilot group better things than you OR 757 driver. At least I put my time and effort where my mouth is, rather than sit back and complain about it and everyone else who disagrees with me.

This just reinforces my point. Most respectable airlines actually pay for your uniform and give you a cleaning allowance. You have made it abundantly clear that you are just thrilled to be employed by Continental even though they treat you like a red-headed step-child.

At some point you will be in the front office and will continue the fine tradition of defending the company no matter what the cost.

I wish you luck my friend as you are a ****-poor example of what a good airline Pilot should be. What's your opinion on our previous Union reps and Tom Stivala turning Benedict Arnold? Oh I forgot, that contract was completely necessary or we would have just folded up shop and went out of business, what a sap.

Here's some free advice:

Our management isn't always right and you should question their motives from time to time.

Good Luck

You're absolutely correct............I AM thrilled at being employed by CAL. It's giving me a nice life, and if I hated it as much as you appear to, I'd LEAVE. (Now there's a real thought!! :eek:) But that's not the case. No, I don't agree with everything that happens at CAL, but from what I've seen, we're not as BAD as you think or portray on this site. Seems a lot of newhires would beg to differ with you and your "outlook", otherwise they wouldn't be coming over as fast as they are. Why haven't you gone elsewhere, where the grass is much greener? I've never understood how guys like you can ever be happy when you appear to hate your company and all the people you work with. What a horrible life to live. BTW, a good airline pilot isn't about calling someone a scab or hating management. Sorry to rain on your parade.

Maybe there's more to being a union member and knowing what's going on than just simply flying a plane. Like everything, it's easy to sit on the sidelines and critisize, but like voting, unless you've pulled the lever, or are working for your union, all the bltching in the world doesn't mean a whole lot. And for the record, I'm probably a whole lot more involved with getting our pilot group better things than you OR 757 driver. At least I put my time and effort where my mouth is, rather than sit back and complain about it and everyone else who disagrees with me.


Sorry to rain on your ego parade, but I have served as a council officer and on more than one cmmte in my airline career. Also, I have been on strike and WON! So please don't tell me you are making the ultimate sacrifice in the name of gabardine. How many 2am phone calls do you get on the Uniform Cmmte? Try doing some heavy lifting as a council officer or safety rep. then tell us how the future of the piloting profession rests on 60/40 poly cotton mix.

Also, how does the CAL MEC feel about your collusion with SCABS and some of the statements you have made on this board? I find them interesting if not absurd. Do they support your statements? Do they even know what you are saying on this forum?

BTW, a good airline pilot isn't about calling someone a scab or hating management.

Is this YOUR definition or can I find it in the ALPA code of ethics somewhere? If we get to assign definitions I would amend yours to say that you SHOULD call a SCAB a SCAB and a good airline pilot knows NOT to associate with SCABS.

Only a mgmnt flunky wannabee would suffer a SCAB's presence. As you told me you were in HS when the rest of the airline world was doing the....what did you call it "heavy lifting"? So please don't lecture those that have more experience and knowledge of the facts than some Johnny come lately in pressed pleats or is it no pleats???

Was someone born in 1987 asking for a scab list? What for? What could a 20 year old FO do with that?

Heh

Was someone born in 1987 asking for a scab list? What for? What could a 20 year old FO do with that?

Heh

Keep a scab off his jumpseat when he upgrades...:)

This topic is so embarrassing to this profession that it is more than sad, it is pathetic. Do those of you stuck in the mentality of the early 20th century honestly believe that anyone cares about your attitude except those of your ilk? While you and people like you compile "scab lists" and display the mentality of suffering garment workers, your career expectations evaporate.

The failure of labor unions to grasps the changes in the economic and market conditions during the past 30 years has led to the near complete devastation of this country's manufacturing base. The auto workers unions have stood tall and unswerving while 70% of their members have lost their jobs and their companies are unable to compete against world markets! The garment and shoe industries have, for all practical purposes, ceased to exist in the United States. Do you realize that the U.S. Border Patrol's uniforms are manufactured in.......fricking Mexico!!!! Virtually all american flags are manufactured in .......fricking China!!!!

While you are centering your anger against "scabs" your representation has participated in training enough replacements for your job to last for the next twenty years. While your blood boils because you have to work next to someone who stayed on the job during a union's effort to drive his company out of business does it sooth your nerves to know that your union says nothing about jets carrying 50 people under Part 121 being crewed by people with a combined total of three or four years as pilots? Kinda undermines the justification for paying highly experienced pilots 200 grand to do something a recent Emery Riddle grad can do for 20. While unions call for unity against evil management your government has ensured the inability of this country's workers to compete in the marketplace with insane trade policies, suicidal immigration laws and socialistic income redistribution. While pilot's watch their pensions disappear, their salaries decrease by 50% and their working conditions fall through the floor your union's national office staff "strikes" because their pay increases and pension enhancements are insufficient. While pilots fight among themselves their union reps pad their income and secure their own futures with either corporate management or salaried union positions so they don't have to live under the conditions they are responsible for bringing to those they represent. Not too different than our politicians are they?

Now we have the newbees to the industry harping the same tired song. Wake up! Nobody fears or even cares about your "scab list" except you! If the methods that have failed the american worker so completely over the past few decades are not understood for what they truly are soon it will be too late. Quit thinking like a dock worker and use the intelligence it took to get where you are to figure it all out, you are an airline pilot not some uneducated hick sewing shirts together for $5.00 a day.

The realities of the job we have requires group representation, real, modern, educated and honest representation. Not some spineless club that can't even keep its members from being treated like Mohammad Atta every time they go to work. If those of you who expect to spend more than a few more years in this industry don't rid this profession of the antiquated, self-serving, money-laundering and ineffective bureaucracy that current robs you of your money, then you have nobody to blame for your bleak future but yourselves.

But I still need the list!

My request still stands. Can anyone help me out?

Nobody fears or even cares about your "scab list" except you! .

I think the big difference here is that most of the new generation like yourself don't have a clue as to what a SCAB really is. Many of us have stood on the other side of a fence watching opportunists fly OUR airplanes while we tried to improve OUR airline. There is something that burns in your soul when you actually live it. Sure there are fewer and fewer of us around that have actually been on strike but it is not because mgmnt has gotten better in negotiations. It is because there are too many Caspar Milquetoast, like some have exhibited here that don't want to assure the profession gets better. Instead they would crawl over their mother to land a job at pretty much any scumbag outfit. Until the mentality changes the industry is doomed to mediocrity.

I am sure you have experiences that I will never have. Unlike yourself I have never ordered or tasted an Appletini. Probably many more along that line but I will leave it at that.

My request still stands. Can anyone help me out?


Here you go again. They will probably romove it again.

Sorry to rain on your ego parade, but I have served as a council officer and on more than one cmmte in my airline career. Also, I have been on strike and WON! So please don't tell me you are making the ultimate sacrifice in the name of gabardine. How many 2am phone calls do you get on the Uniform Cmmte? Try doing some heavy lifting as a council officer or safety rep. then tell us how the future of the piloting profession rests on 60/40 poly cotton mix.

Also, how does the CAL MEC feel about your collusion with SCABS and some of the statements you have made on this board? I find them interesting if not absurd. Do they support your statements? Do they even know what you are saying on this forum?

GOOD FOR YOU!!!! You're my hero!!! Did I say their was an ulitimate sacrifice for being on my committee (I've done 90% of my work for FREE and on my OWN TIME, same as the other committee I'm on). No, I did my 20 in the military too..............and you? I was a safety officer in the USAF for 5 years and did my fair share of reports and investigations, so don't tell me about "heavy lifting", okay? Collusion with scabs? Geez, you really need to get a life. I guess if your chief pilot is a crosser and he needs to see you, then you just flip him off and go about your merry way........yeah, right. I'm sure you'd be a real "stud" for turning down a scab for a jumpseat, when one day he returned the favor and really ended up screwing you. It'd be a little bit of poetic justice. I don't like the fact they crossed any more than anyone else, but if you seriously think I'm going to give up my days off to go home so I don't have to ride in their jumpseat if that's the only seat left on the plane, you're wrong. What would that prove other than "I" would be the only person getting hurt by such a silly action. As for my comments on this forum, unless you've been out of touch for a really long time, there's a thing called "freedom of speech". Of course someone of your "brain power and standing" has probably never heard of that, have you? :eek: My airline hasn't gone on strike since I've been there, so "winning" has not been an option. I guess you're still upset at Eve since she made Adam eat the apple too, aren't you? :p

To all involved in this discussion (especially LB). This is exactly why I say avoiding an airline that has strike breakers in the numbers that UAL and CAL have was a priority for me. Too many people urinating in the pool water. :eek:

Time will eliminate most of them but the residue is still in the pool.

GOOD FOR YOU!!!! You're my hero!!! Did I say their was an ulitimate sacrifice for being on my committee (I've done 90% of my work for FREE and on my OWN TIME, same as the other committee I'm on).

Did not ask for you resume. I was just responding to your dart that I had never done my fair share. What type of campaign did you have to do for the Uniform job? Were you elected by a group of your peers against other candidates or did you inherit the job. Did the MEC put you there to keep you out of the way?

We do have free speech in this country, however as a representative voice of an MEC position you are not given free reign. I would suspect the CAL MEC might not approve of many of your comments. Is there grounds for Article VIII charges against you? Someone could formulate a case if they were concerned enough to act.

I think you are the minority voice amongst the good CAL pilots. At least that is my take on reading this thread.

Of course all banter aside. Nothing can "UN"-SCAB someone. They are a SCAB for life, no matter how much someone defends them.

Yeah......let's just fogive those SCABS so I can have a jumpseat home - grow a pair !!!

Nothing can "UN"-SCAB someone. They are a SCAB for life, no matter how much someone defends them.

Well said.

I think the big difference here is that most of the new generation like yourself don't have a clue as to what a SCAB really is. Many of us have stood on the other side of a fence watching opportunists fly OUR airplanes while we tried to improve OUR airline. There is something that burns in your soul when you actually live it. Sure there are fewer and fewer of us around that have actually been on strike but it is not because mgmnt has gotten better in negotiations. It is because there are too many Caspar Milquetoast, like some have exhibited here that don't want to assure the profession gets better. Instead they would crawl over their mother to land a job at pretty much any scumbag outfit. Until the mentality changes the industry is doomed to mediocrity.

I am sure you have experiences that I will never have. Unlike yourself I have never ordered or tasted an Appletini. Probably many more along that line but I will leave it at that.

I will be forced to retire from this industry in 3 months after 38 years as a commercial pilot. My son represents the fourth generation of pilots in my family, three of which have been, are in the airline industry. Two World Wars, Korea and Nam with 12 family participants, five in the air, three casualties, so I think I bring enough to the table to sit with the likes of you. Our primary difference is that I am not hobbled with the naive bitterness which makes you unable to understand the realities of your situation.

Name just one thing that has been improved in this profession since deregulation by the methods and beliefs that you profess? Name just one thing that ALPA has done since deregulation that has made this profession or your career better? The antiquated philosophy of the labor unions which you so passionately subscribe to do nothing but establish a new straw man for each of their failures while conveniently ignoring the real cause of those failures and changing their strategy. This is not surprising considering that the very basis of union strategy dates back to and has changed little from what was outlined in writings 160 years ago. I guess you think economic forces, markets and management techniques have also not changed since 1848! The corporate structure of today's airlines have virtually nothing in common with those of thirty years ago. They are designed the way they are today for very specific reasons and the people who really do make money off this industry don't actually own any of them and have assured that they will continue to make money no matter how many go in and out of business.

I know several people who have retired or lost careers in this industry and wasted their remaining years in the bitterness and anger which you are trapped in. Why not use your years and experiences to try to understand the real reasons for the downward cycle that has enveloped not only this industry but this country. If you succeed then maybe, just maybe you can pass on some wisdom to those that follow you so that they will have a chance of straightening things out before it all comes crashing down on them.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Please refrain from changing words to get by the profanity filter.

Thx

Thanks reCALcitrant!

And I was finally able to get another copy. I simply don't get what the big deal is. If you were big and bad enough to cross the picket lines then, why try to hide the fact now? It was your choice!

I will be forced to retire from this industry in 3 months after 38 years as a commercial pilot. My son represents the fourth generation of pilots in my family, three of which have been, are in the airline industry. Two World Wars, Korea and Nam with 12 family participants, five in the air, three casualties, so I think I bring enough to the table to sit with the likes of you. Our primary difference is that I am not hobbled with the naive bitterness which makes you unable to understand the realities of your situation.

Name just one thing that has been improved in this profession since deregulation by the methods and beliefs that you profess? Name just one thing that ALPA has done since deregulation that has made this profession or your career better? The antiquated philosophy of the labor unions which you so passionately subscribe to do nothing but establish a new straw man for each of their failures while conveniently ignoring the real cause of those failures and changing their strategy. This is not surprising considering that the very basis of union strategy dates back to and has changed little from what was outlined in writings 160 years ago. I guess you think economic forces, markets and management techniques have also not changed since 1848! The corporate structure of today's airlines have virtually nothing in common with those of thirty years ago. They are designed the way they are today for very specific reasons and the people who really do make money off this industry don't actually own any of them and have assured that they will continue to make money no matter how many go in and out of business.

I know several people who have retired or lost careers in this industry and wasted their remaining years in the bitterness and anger which you are trapped in. Why not use your years and experiences to try to understand the real reasons for the downward cycle that has enveloped not only this industry but this country. If you succeed then maybe, just maybe you can pass on some wisdom to those that follow you so that they will have a chance of straightening things out before it all comes crashing down on them.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Behog,

Name one thing the scabs did for the Pilots of Continental in 1983?

Nuff said.

Just a quick question for the CAL ALPA uniform guy... do you guys use those crooks at Cintas too? Just wondering... :confused:

Behog,

Name one thing the scabs did for the Pilots of Continental in 1983?

Nuff said.

The only thing they can do....LEAVE! At over 100/year:D

Behog,

Name one thing the scabs did for the Pilots of Continental in 1983?

Nuff said.

Still swinging at the ghost of Frank Lorenzo huh 75

Still swinging at the ghost of Frank Lorenzo huh 75

Ah my old pal Mr. P.

This guy has lived the life of a super-scab and continues to defend his decision.

You'll not get much sympathy here my misdirected co-worker. Perhaps a perusal of www.scab.org (http://www.scab.org) will be more to your liking.

Behog,

Name one thing the scabs did for the Pilots of Continental in 1983?

Nuff said.

Or the scabs at UAL in '85

Or the scabs at Pan Am in '85

Or the scabs at EAL in '89

Or the scabs in Australia in '89

Or the scabs at Comair in '01

Or the "virtual" Freedom "A" list

Or those who went to GoJet

ALL SELFISH, SHORT SIDED INDIVIDUALS :mad:

These folks have just as much to do with lowering the profession as any management team.

MGMT can push the envelop cause they know they'll find a few "distinguished" individuals who will work for anything. They divide the group and slowly weaken the profession.

Behog,

Name one thing the scabs did for the Pilots of Continental in 1983?

Nuff said.

Since the "Nuff said" made it obvious that the question was rhetorical I won't bother with any reasoned response which you will not be able to understand. So the short answer becomes; They raised the average IQ of airline pilots to a level slightly above that of the longshoremen. However, based on the banter on this board by those new to this industry who were still playing with Fisher Price airplanes during the CAL strike of 83-85 I would say that effect was only a temporary phenomenon!

Since the "Nuff said" made it obvious that the question was rhetorical I won't bother with any reasoned response which you will not be able to understand. So the short answer becomes; They raised the average IQ of airline pilots to a level slightly above that of the longshoremen. However, based on the banter on this board by those new to this industry who were still playing with Fisher Price airplanes during the CAL strike of 83-85 I would say that effect was only a temporary phenomenon!

Didn't think you'd come up with an intelligent response.

Nice try with the toy analogy though.

Since the "Nuff said" made it obvious that the question was rhetorical I won't bother with any reasoned response which you will not be able to understand. So the short answer becomes; They raised the average IQ of airline pilots to a level slightly above that of the longshoremen. However, based on the banter on this board by those new to this industry who were still playing with Fisher Price airplanes during the CAL strike of 83-85 I would say that effect was only a temporary phenomenon!

Didn't think you'd come up with an intelligent response.

Nice try with the toy analogy though.

757:

There is no point in arguing with one of those "I saved Continental!" scabs. You'd think that there are teenage student pilots out there who's sole lifetime ambition is to "save an airline". I've never met one. Most likely he's operating under a new member name every 30 days. He's been quite opinionated about the scab issue, but has less than 5 post after 20 years of lechery. He'll disappear in a week and change again; fishing for more of his bottom-feeding kind. Thankfully, this scab will disappear from our cockpits in 3 months when his scab career finally ends.
Scabs do strange things to deal with their very own miserable existence. Flown with many "scabs-4-Jesus" and "scab-pervs" at CAL, so you can't really classify how their moral lacking will manifest itself. And about the list, you really don't need one to tell who was hired during the strike. Listen to their stories and you'll find that, no matter what they say, they seek self and peer validation. Last post on this scab, he probably thinks he's "saving" APC by polluting the board with his presence. He should try to enjoy his retirement, I know I will. He or his kind will not be missed.

757:

There is no point in arguing with one of those "I saved Continental!" scabs. You'd think that there are teenage student pilots out there who's sole lifetime ambition is to "save an airline". I've never met one. Most likely he's operating under a new member name every 30 days. He's been quite opinionated about the scab issue, but has less than 5 post after 20 years of lechery. He'll disappear in a week and change again; fishing for more of his bottom-feeding kind. Thankfully, this scab will disappear from our cockpits in 3 months when his scab career finally ends.
Scabs do strange things to deal with their very own miserable existence. Flown with many "scabs-4-Jesus" and "scab-pervs" at CAL, so you can't really classify how their moral lacking will manifest itself. And about the list, you really don't need one to tell who was hired during the strike. Listen to their stories and you'll find that, no matter what they say, they seek self and peer validation. Last post on this scab, he probably thinks he's "saving" APC by polluting the board with his presence. He should try to enjoy his retirement, I know I will. He or his kind will not be missed.

Funny you say that. Within 1 minute of sitting down in the cockpit, I can tell right off whether they're a scab or not. Must be something hard wired into those types.

Here ya go Behog and Paladin. Read on and learn:


A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You’d be Doing if You Weren’t on Strike.
A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor
disputes and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his
and your profession, often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term,
nor does he think of anything other then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives,
careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a
decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant -
ruining lives, jobs and careers.

Fellas,

I wouldn't even dignify the scabs with a response. They don't deserve it.

Here ya go Behog and Paladin. Read on and learn:


A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You’d be Doing if You Weren’t on Strike.
A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor
disputes and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his
and your profession, often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term,
nor does he think of anything other then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives,
careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a
decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant -
ruining lives, jobs and careers.

75,
Is the above quote, which you plagiarize from a website, your standard for a intelligent and reasoned response to anything? The emotional arguments in your diatribe are simply arbitrary and carry no cognitive status.

As for defending my position to go to work for CAL, there is nothing to defend. For all intents and purposes the strike was over in early '84 when the bankruptcy judge disolved the union contracts. After the judge's ruling many of the strikers rose above the emotional arguments ALPA was perpetrating and returned to work. As for stealing jobs, that statement is a non-sequitur. The strikers were free to return to work anytime they wish. Like it or not the rule of law must prevail.

Here ya go Behog and Paladin. Read on and learn:


A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You’d be Doing if You Weren’t on Strike.
A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor
disputes and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his
and your profession, often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term,
nor does he think of anything other then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives,
careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a
decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant -
ruining lives, jobs and careers.

75,
Is the above quote, which you plagiarize from a website, your standard for a intelligent and reasoned response to anything? The emotional arguments in your diatribe are simply arbitrary and carry no cognitive status.

As for defending my position to go to work for CAL, there is nothing to defend. For all intents and purposes the strike was over in early '84 when the bankruptcy judge disolved the union contracts. After the judge's ruling many of the strikers rose above the emotional arguments ALPA was perpetrating and returned to work. As for stealing jobs, that statement is a non-sequitur. The strikers were free to return to work anytime they wish. Like it or not the rule of law must prevail.

That Ayn Rand quote ain't doing much for you either. Is it you guys' club motto?

75,
Is the above quote, which you plagiarize from a website, your standard for a intelligent and reasoned response to anything? The emotional arguments in your diatribe are simply arbitrary and carry no cognitive status.

As for defending my position to go to work for CAL, there is nothing to defend. For all intents and purposes the strike was over in early '84 when the bankruptcy judge disolved the union contracts. After the judge's ruling many of the strikers rose above the emotional arguments ALPA was perpetrating and returned to work. As for stealing jobs, that statement is a non-sequitur. The strikers were free to return to work anytime they wish. Like it or not the rule of law must prevail.

Yes P-man, the rule of law must prevail. There is, however, a higher code that I choose to follow called morality. You hide behind fancy posts justifying your job stealing while I choose to let my actions speak for themselves.

You will always be a scab sir while I shall never be one.

Yes P-man, the rule of law must prevail. There is, however, a higher code that I choose to follow called morality. You hide behind fancy posts justifying your job stealing while I choose to let my actions speak for themselves.

You will always be a scab sir while I shall never be one.

There it is, plain and simple

Yes P-man, the rule of law must prevail. There is, however, a higher code that I choose to follow called morality. You hide behind fancy posts justifying your job stealing while I choose to let my actions speak for themselves.

You will always be a scab sir while I shall never be one.

Yeah I know of some guys who were claiming allegiance to a higher "morality" too and they ran a couple airplanes into some buildings. There comes a time when you must question the premises of the morality of those to which you claim allegiance and think for yourself and not just parrot the received opinions of those who have another agenda. And I will continue to let my actions speak for me as well.

There it is, plain and simple

Unless you're a SCAB; they just don't get it.

Yes P-man, the rule of law must prevail. There is, however, a higher code that I choose to follow called morality.

The guy has no idea of what you speak. And a pocket thesaurus is no substitute for moral fiber. Scabs were born scabs. Crossing a picket line during the strike was just those guy's opportunity to show their worth. Conduct your own research. The last few CAL incidents that hit the media were all starring scabs. AMS-EWR with bathrooms overflowing and F/A's in environmental space suits=SCAB Captain, Drunk on crew van last summer+SCAB Captain, killed self last winter scud-running in light aircraft=SCAB captain. On a side note, a scab with 4 stripes is like a bull with tits anyhow. Ask any f/o about the abilities of CAL captains hired during the strike and they will tell you that those guys are different and sub-standard. Here's where to chime in guys. Fly with a CAL captain hired during the strike 1, 2 times at most, and you are sure to witness one of those "Things that make you go Hmmmm". During the strike AA,UAL, US Air, DAL, TWA were all hiring. What kind of individual applies to work for Frank Lorenzo at half of what the other airlines pay? One who doesn't meet requisite minimum qualifications at a top rung carrier. CAL was not top rung until looooong after Lorenzo left. Had it not been for Lorenzo, 95% of those guys would never have made it too a major airline cockpits, they don't belong there now.

Is there any way to tell who they are at CAL without cross-checking the list? I had heard there was.

Is there any way to tell who they are at CAL without cross-checking the list? I had heard there was.

Talk to them for 30-40 seconds, you'll know.

Talk to them for 30-40 seconds, you'll know.

Point well taken. As a CAL new-hire it is interesting for me to go somewhere with this type of history. Are the guys who crossed members of ALPA now? Or are they banned? Seems to me they should have to pay but not receive the benefits. Just a thought, but then again I was one of those people 'playing with plastic airplane toys in 83' since I was a toddler. It seems to me that far too often, the other pilots in my age group (mid 20's) have completely forgotten about the turmoil of the 80's and perhaps could use a little history lesson.

My question is, at CAL are they all as hell bent on trying to justify their actions as Señor Paladin?

'Cause I bet that's entertaining.

Unless you're a SCAB; they just don't get it.

Nope. And since I am used to repeating myself for the benefit of my 3 year old, here goes Mr. Dojet.........I have never been a scab, never WILL be a scab and don't sympathize with scabs. I've never been faced with a strike but if I was I would stand strong with my union brothers.

Is there any way to tell who they are at CAL without cross-checking the list? I had heard there was.

SCABS have universal personality traits. They are like sewer rats in how they disappear and pop up somewhere be it the airplane or operations without being seen in the terminal. When in a group of union pilots they will lower their heads and try to pull the hat down to their shoulders to avoid making eye contact. (perhaps the CAL uniform guy could get an option for a full pull down hat that also has holes in the top to be used like a ski mask when a scab is in a confined area with real pilots)

When trapped in a cockpit with a SCAB they will try to generate conversation. Do not be fooled by this banter. It is the first phase of the Stockholm syndrome. Do not engage them in conversation as they will steer the topic to why they did what they did. Be it for the sick butterfly they had in a jar to the grasshopper with the broken leg they will give you a reason for why they did what they did. This story they spin will be full of holes and be about as factual as a Fox News Broadcast. Simply adjust the volume on the audio panel, turn your head slightly to the right and maintain a vigilant watch for traffic. Do not relax your traffic watch while parked at the gate. There could be someone on the ground trying to gather your attention and it best that you give your job your full attention and put aside the non-essential conversation being offered by this SCAB that is flapping his gums.

At all times comply with company SOP and FOM guidance. You will find that while flying with a SCAB it gives you a great opportunity to study for you next PC.

But remember at all times that no matter what comes out of the mouth of the person sitting next to you, they crossed a picket line and attempted to put other pilots out of work by throwing out the contract and flying as independent operators. They have done something very bad that has no opportunity to be undone.

Point well taken. As a CAL new-hire it is interesting for me to go somewhere with this type of history. Are the guys who crossed members of ALPA now? Or are they banned? Seems to me they should have to pay but not receive the benefits. Just a thought, but then again I was one of those people 'playing with plastic airplane toys in 83' since I was a toddler. It seems to me that far too often, the other pilots in my age group (mid 20's) have completely forgotten about the turmoil of the 80's and perhaps could use a little history lesson.

As far as I know, ALPA represents all CAL pilots regardless of their past, so all were forgiven. There are many scabs at the airline who refuse to pay their dues, that's their nature, and are still working. At other majors, with a real and unified pilot group, non-members would be assessed a fee for the unions work in negotiating a CBA or they would be fired. Not the case @ CAL.....yet.

Welcome Aboard! Some advice about the scab situation to get through your probation year. The really dangerous scabs are the ones hired during the strike. These are the guys who weren't good enough to work for reputable companies at industry standard wages. Frank Lorenzo's strike is the best thing that ever happened to these guys whom would never, ever have been major airline pilots, let alone captains had it not been for Frank. These guys will be easy to spot, but Frank Lorenzo, in his divide and conquer wisdom, gave you another tool. A letter at the end of an employee number almost always indicates random (except frontier guys cursed with scab the letter). These scabs will usually be wearing at least 2 forms of ALPA regalia on their uniforms and flight kits. Watch these guys like a hawk. Spend as little time with them as possible. Work hard to separate yourself from him in the eyes of the crew, he'll most likely not have the interpersonal or leadership qualities that a captain gains in the normal progression to the left seat. You arrive @ CAL @ a good time. We're losing about 100 scabs a year and soon the company will finally have to pay top wages for top product. Congrats!

QUOTE

A320- "killed self last winter scud-running in light aircraft=SCAB captain."

You sniveling little twerp! This person who you have the audacity to besmirch was, to all that knew him, one of the finest people they had the pleasure to meet. His father was also one of the finest people and pilot I have ever met. But you would have never been privileged to have known either because you judge people's character, "within a few seconds," based on some perverted moral standard you parrot that was dictated to you by the likes of people that make pipe bombs, slash tires, spit on people, call children in the night to tell them their daddy's dead and a host of other "moral" acts. Anyone who sides with the likes of a moron like you will deserve the depths that you will drive this profession with the idiocy you espouse.

Virtually everything I have read from you on this board is complaining about something or somebody. You have the audacity to identify yourself with a picture depicting men who accomplished and endured more before they were old enough to vote than you will in your already pathetic lifetime. I would strongly suggest that you find a rock to crawl under because although I will soon not have to evermore be in the presence of mindless bile merchants such as you, more than a few hundred of the most influential people at CAL that both admired and respected that family will make every effort to identify you and see that your self induced suffering at CAL is both intense and short-lived once they become aware of this post.

If this board had even a microscopic bit of integrity it would remove both that post as well as your identity before any family member becomes aware of it.

Nope. And since I am used to repeating myself for the benefit of my 3 year old, here goes Mr. Dojet.........I have never been a scab, never WILL be a scab and don't sympathize with scabs. I've never been faced with a strike but if I was I would stand strong with my union brothers.


The remark was not directed at you. Sorry if you thought it was.

QUOTE

A320- "killed self last winter scud-running in light aircraft=SCAB captain."

You sniveling little twerp! This person who you have the audacity to besmirch was, to all that knew him, one of the finest people they had the pleasure to meet. His father was also one of the finest people and pilot I have ever met. But you would have never been privileged to have known either because you judge people's character, "within a few seconds," based on some perverted moral standard you parrot that was dictated to you by the likes of people that make pipe bombs, slash tires, spit on people, call children in the night to tell them their daddy's dead and a host of other "moral" acts. Anyone who sides with the likes of a moron like you will deserve the depths that you will drive this profession with the idiocy you espouse.

Virtually everything I have read from you on this board is complaining about something or somebody. You have the audacity to identify yourself with a picture depicting men who accomplished and endured more before they were old enough to vote than you will in your already pathetic lifetime. I would strongly suggest that you find a rock to crawl under because although I will soon not have to evermore be in the presence of mindless bile merchants such as you, more than a few hundred of the most influential people at CAL that both admired and respected that family will make every effort to identify you and see that your self induced suffering at CAL is both intense and short-lived once they become aware of this post.

If this board had even a microscopic bit of integrity it would remove both that post as well as your identity before any family member becomes aware of it.

But is it true? Was this guy a Scab? I know nothing of this incident or the guy.

There are a lot of CAL pilots with letters at the end of their employee numbers that are not scabs. Does this method not work in identifying them? Is it a certain letter(s)? I have the list, but many non scabs have letters at the end of their number. :confused:

I just spent 9 hours today in the cockpit with one. I'm glad I'm upgrading soon.:D

QUOTE

A320- "killed self last winter scud-running in light aircraft=SCAB captain."

But you would have never been privileged to have known either because you judge people's character, "within a few seconds," based on some perverted moral standard you parrot that was dictated to you by the likes of people that make pipe bombs, slash tires, spit on people, call children in the night to tell them their daddy's dead and a host of other "moral" acts.

Where is the false statement that he made? Was it not a FACT that this was a SCAB that was killed while flying a light aircraft? The SCAB moniker is not parted from the person upon death. You just become a dead SCAB. That is still fact based on the actions.

While you say this is a character of an action of "a few seconds". It does not work that way. Just like the old joke about painting buildings and never being called a painter, You scab for a milisecond and you are a scab.

I think we can agree on one thing. We both wish it wasn't this way we just disagree on the how it happens. You wish that there was no foul for knifing your fellow pilots while being an opportunist. And I wish there were not slimy bastages that feel it is OK to be SCABS.

If this thread opens the eyes to some out there that being a SCAB is a eternal decision then I think we have laid out the facts. You want to make this about ALPA national and I like to think of it in terms of my fellow pilots at my airline. By scabbing I would be doing damage to my fellow pilots and my eternal moral makeup.

Also, as a person who has walked the line I am proud to say that I have never had to be driven to work in a bus with windows blacked out so others could not see me. What type of person comes to work in blacked out windows??? SCABS!!!!

These are all facts. Sorry they don't fit your hopes of revisionist history. But you can look forward to keeping the SCAB badge with you for eternity since you seem to enjoy it so much, why not embrace it and wear it proudly?

A320, You are really treading on thin ice with your bone headed comment about the pilot who lost his life in a small plane accident. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of similar incidents/accidents like you describe made by staunch union pilots. If you knew anything at all about the history of Cal during those days in question you would know that particular pilot along with his father was very well liked and respected, not only by those who chose to cross but also those who chose to stick it out to the bitter end, as person and an aviator.

BTW; all CAL piolts pay either union dues or an agency fee to ALPA. It is a condition of their employment.

And I will continue to let my actions speak for me as well.

And trust me, your name will ALWAYS be on that list regardless of your fancy rhetoric.

Shameful at best.

The remark was not directed at you. Sorry if you thought it was.

No no no Otto that wasn't for you. Some cat on here with a Dojet handle seems to think because I asked a question about how hard it was to find a job while on strike that all of the sudden I'm a scab, scab wanna-be or scab sympathizer. So no worries bro.

Infraction issued to Behog02. Check your PM.

-Forum co-administrator

QUOTE

A320- "killed self last winter scud-running in light aircraft=SCAB captain."

You sniveling little twerp!

Didn't know the guy. Feel bad for his family. Yes, he was a scab. And trust me, I am not little.
My point is that whenever you hear something about a CAL pilot who did something stupid, you can check the facts and find that he's probably a scab. You and scabs like you have ruined our industry. You jumped at an opportunity to be more than you ever should have been. You did so without regard to how it would affect the proud Airline pilot profession. You sold your soul to Frank, and ever since then have accepted every scrap that CAL management has thrown you without regards to the vast majority of us who earned and deserve our positions in life. You wearing 4 stripes offends most of us more than you would ever understand because your scope of understanding is constricted to yourselves. I don't hate any person individually, only meant to convey facts about your fellow scab brother. May he rest in peace. I mean that honestly. I am actually surprised that you have compassion for your fellow scab, that's the 1st step back to the integrity that you gave to Frank, though I doubt you or any of your kind will ever be whole. Your presence at the company and on this board is an abomination to most of us here. You know this. Please don't be surprised when one of US says something that might offend you. I stand by my point that you and your kind are flawed and have reaped great benefits courtesy of Lorenzo. Please enjoy what you have stolen, SCAB, and stay off the board if you can't handle the truth.

If I offended anyone who is not a scab, I sincerely apalogize. Don't take pleasure in anyone's demise.

There are a lot of CAL pilots with letters at the end of their employee numbers that are not scabs. Does this method not work in identifying them? Is it a certain letter(s)? I have the list, but many non scabs have letters at the end of their number. :confused:

I just spent 9 hours today in the cockpit with one. I'm glad I'm upgrading soon.:D

True. I think the Frontier guys got letters for some reason.

True. I think the Frontier guys got letters for some reason.

Didn't Bethune change the CAL I'D's so the Employee numbers were no longer on the front so you weren't able to identify a SCAB from looking at their ID?

No no no Otto that wasn't for you. Some cat on here with a Dojet handle seems to think because I asked a question about how hard it was to find a job while on strike that all of the sudden I'm a scab, scab wanna-be or scab sympathizer. So no worries bro.


Only because the wording you used and your tact (or lack of it) to ask a simple question. Seriously, re-read what you wrote. It sounds like you were asking how many people have been out of a job. Then followed up with a stupid "good, you took the bait" comment. It would have been natural for you to follow up with "what would you do to feed your family blah blah blah" type of reasoning. I didn't take any bait, just answered your question. I was willing to let it go and write it off as a simple misunderstanding, but that makes the SECOND time you have mentioned me with out responding nor quoting one of my posts.

Get it?

Only because the wording you used and your tact (or lack of it) to ask a simple question. Seriously, re-read what you wrote. It sounds like you were asking how many people have been out of a job. Then followed up with a stupid "good, you took the bait" comment. It would have been natural for you to follow up with "what would you do to feed your family blah blah blah" type of reasoning. I didn't take any bait, just answered your question. I was willing to let it go and write it off as a simple misunderstanding, but that makes the SECOND time you have mentioned me with out responding nor quoting one of my posts.

Get it?

Got it, thanks. I'll be sure to be more cognizant of my "wording" next time for the overly sensitive.

True. I think the Frontier guys got letters for some reason.
You are right-Being a Ex Frontier pilot at Cal we all have Letters after our numbers and all the FO's I fly with think I'm a Scab until they get to know me-Cheers All

I can't believe you guys keep a list of guys who you don't like. So what if a person doesn't believe exactly what you do? That's why we live in America.

Ganging up on people that don't share your views is not right. Im beginning to believe that these unions are like the mafia and have a hitlist!

I guess I will have to be intimidated and do what everyone else wants me to do in life so I don't get on the hitlist.

I can't believe you guys keep a list of guys who you don't like. So what if a person doesn't believe exactly what you do? That's why we live in America.

Ganging up on people that don't share your views is not right. Im beginning to believe that these unions are like the mafia and have a hitlist!

I guess I will have to be intimidated and do what everyone else wants me to do in life so I don't get on the hitlist.

you might want to read "Flying the line Vol I, II"

I can't believe you guys keep a list of guys who you don't like. So what if a person doesn't believe exactly what you do? That's why we live in America.

Ganging up on people that don't share your views is not right. Im beginning to believe that these unions are like the mafia and have a hitlist!

I guess I will have to be intimidated and do what everyone else wants me to do in life so I don't get on the hitlist.

Don't cross a picket line and become a SCAB and you have nothing to worry about. Simply saying it's a list of people we 'don't like' is ridiculously understating the reason they're on a list. If you don't believe in taking care of your fellow pilot, especially within your airline, please don't come to my place of employment. PS- You don't have to join the union. You can choose to be a non-member at most carriers and be surrounded by people who are just your style.

don't come to my place of employment.

Ditto.

(I'd have left it at that but the system requires a longer reply. So much for being a man of few words.)

I can't believe you guys keep a list of guys who you don't like. So what if a person doesn't believe exactly what you do? That's why we live in America.

Ganging up on people that don't share your views is not right. Im beginning to believe that these unions are like the mafia and have a hitlist!

I guess I will have to be intimidated and do what everyone else wants me to do in life so I don't get on the hitlist.

Got me scared too. It seems like a bad situation no matter what side of the fence you're on. I don't like the idea of being in a union, nor do I want to be a scab. Maybe I need to rethink my desire for an airline career. Corporate flying, here I come...:D

I can't believe you guys keep a list of guys who you don't like. So what if a person doesn't believe exactly what you do? That's why we live in America.

Ganging up on people that don't share your views is not right. Im beginning to believe that these unions are like the mafia and have a hitlist!


Got me scared too. It seems like a bad situation no matter what side of the fence you're on.

If this is really how you feel, please spend a little more time reading on the subject and less time posting. Both of these posts come across as incredibly uninformed and naive, it's clear that you're not working pilots (I hope). Labor unions have been active in this country for over 100 years and the labor law pilots operate under has been "thoroughly tested". For airline pilots, unions have won the legal right (voted in by pilots they represent) to negotiate on pilots behalf.

Try this:

http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WarOfTheClasses/scab.html

I asked the definition of a scab some time ago, and this was posted as a reply. Speaking of "reading more on the subject," did anyone actually read this definition of a scab? Here's my one of my favorite quotes from the article:

"But the union laborers of the United Stated have nothing of which to boast, while, according to their trade-union ethics, they have a great deal of which to be ashamed. They passionately preach short hours and big wages, the shorter the hours and the bigger the wages the better. Their hatred for a scab is as terrible as the hatred of a patriot for a traitor, of a Christian for a Judas. And in the face of all this, they are as colossal scabs as the United States is a colossal scab. For all of their boasted unions and high labor ideals, they are about the most thoroughgoing scabs on the planet...

The strong, capable workman gets a job and holds it because of his strength and capacity. And he holds it because out of his strength and capacity he gives a better value for his wage than does the weaker and less capable workman. Therefore he is scabbing upon his weaker and less capable brother workman. He is giving more value for the price paid by the employer.

The superior workman scabs upon the inferior workman because he is so constituted and cannot help it. The one, by fortune of birth and upbringing, is strong and capable; the other, by fortune of birth and upbringing, is not so strong nor capable. It is for the same reason that one country scabs upon another. That country which has the good fortune to possess great natural resources, a finer sun and soil, unhampering institutions, and a deft and intelligent labor class and capitalist class is bound to scab upon a country less fortunately situated. It is the good fortune of the United States that is making her the colossal scab, just as it is the good fortune of one man to be born with a straight back while his brother is born with a hump."

Do "we" really believe all this?

Clipper,
Sounds more like a scab trying to defend his dishonorable actions by the twisting of verse.

If you have ever flown with a scab they try to make you believe that they were tricked or deceived and somehow not their fault. They live a life of self-deception, never quite owning up to their past.

Clipper,
Sounds more like a scab trying to defend his dishonorable actions by the twisting of verse.

If you have ever flown with a scab they try to make you believe that they were tricked or deceived and somehow not their fault. They live a life of self-deception, never quite owning up to their past.

Actually, It was an address by Jack London to the Oakland Socialist Society in 1903. It was posted on this board as the definintion of a scab. It starts out very similar to some of the anti-scab rhetoric on this board. (Note: I didn't just say anything pro scab)

I was wondering if folks actually read the stuff they "agree" with carefully.

can someone please re-up the scab list?

I was wondering if folks actually read the stuff they "agree" with carefully.

Are you talking about 19th century Literature, or trade unionism?

I can't believe you guys keep a list of guys who you don't like. So what if a person doesn't believe exactly what you do? That's why we live in America.

Ganging up on people that don't share your views is not right. Im beginning to believe that these unions are like the mafia and have a hitlist!

I guess I will have to be intimidated and do what everyone else wants me to do in life so I don't get on the hitlist.

You said it....this is America. You can always go do something else. Flying may not be for you. Of course you could assume everyone here is wrong and you are right (your choice).....then again maybe educate yourself a little. Read some of the books mentioned here and study the labor movement. Can you imagine if we still had labor laws like China here?? If you look at the pay scales and benefits of jobs you are trying to get, look closely and you will see it is due to UNIONS!

Unions are not perfect, but they work.....and they work only if everyone stays together!

I asked the definition of a scab some time ago, and this was posted as a reply. Speaking of "reading more on the subject," did anyone actually read this definition of a scab? Here's my one of my favorite quotes from the article:

"But the union laborers of the United Stated have nothing of which to boast, while, according to their trade-union ethics, they have a great deal of which to be ashamed. They passionately preach short hours and big wages, the shorter the hours and the bigger the wages the better. Their hatred for a scab is as terrible as the hatred of a patriot for a traitor, of a Christian for a Judas. And in the face of all this, they are as colossal scabs as the United States is a colossal scab. For all of their boasted unions and high labor ideals, they are about the most thoroughgoing scabs on the planet...

The strong, capable workman gets a job and holds it because of his strength and capacity. And he holds it because out of his strength and capacity he gives a better value for his wage than does the weaker and less capable workman. Therefore he is scabbing upon his weaker and less capable brother workman. He is giving more value for the price paid by the employer.

The superior workman scabs upon the inferior workman because he is so constituted and cannot help it. The one, by fortune of birth and upbringing, is strong and capable; the other, by fortune of birth and upbringing, is not so strong nor capable. It is for the same reason that one country scabs upon another. That country which has the good fortune to possess great natural resources, a finer sun and soil, unhampering institutions, and a deft and intelligent labor class and capitalist class is bound to scab upon a country less fortunately situated. It is the good fortune of the United States that is making her the colossal scab, just as it is the good fortune of one man to be born with a straight back while his brother is born with a hump."

Do "we" really believe all this?

Sounds like a direct quote out of the liberal handbook. Wow......

Suddenly a Captain After Bankruptcy

I cannot get any scab list links to open, have they all been blocked on line?
Anyone have a link that is useable?

Suddenly a Captain After Bankruptcy


Surely Couldn't Accomplish Based on my abilities;).

Would you guys please give us a SCAB list that works-seems that the original has been blocked and shut down-this is very useful info for us new guys to the 121 buisness.

Go to the start of this thread and click on the paper clip that's off to the right of the thread title.

Thanks for the help couldnt get the link to open!

worked for me.. it's in .pdf format.

edit.. whoa, somebody I am very close to is on the list. crazy!!

I also can't get the link to open, maybe you need a certain version of a PDF reader.

Most all of you guys that pound your chest and talk about scabs have never been close to a picket line and usually the big talkers are the first ones to cross a line. Yes I've witnessed it first hand.

ALPA could solve the whole problem by letting one take his seniority lateral. All contracts should have this. But when it comes to this, then the big mouths are quiet. ALPA will never ever, have any leverage until sideways movement is possible. The haves do not want the have nots on their list. OH they may turn on their landing lights in support of you but ALPA pilots will fly your runs when your on strike, and maybe once come to your picket line and thats about it. During the Eastern strike I only saw one Delta pilot come to one of our rallies. Some even openly hoped we would go out of business as we competed head on in ATL. Its just like the age 60 thing. The have nots (FO's) want you out of their seat. Now why don't you big mouths shut up.

Where is the scab list. The link doesn't work and I can't find what the guys are talking about on page 24.

"ALPA could solve the whole problem by letting one take his seniority lateral."

Now why if I work at an airline for 15 years would I think that is fair to have someone at a different airline for 20 years jump ahead of me in seniority when he takes a job at my airline??

Now why if I work at an airline for 15 years would I think that is fair to have someone at a different airline for 20 years jump ahead of me in seniority when he takes a job at my airline??

Because when your airline goes under you could jump in front of some guy with 10 years at his airline.

thats what I'm saying. And you think it would be fair to you if you had 10 years of seniority at your airline and I had 12 at mine, my airline goes under and I get to jump ahead of you in seniority if i get hired at your airline? I dot think so...

The concept is interesting, not sure if I wholly support that idea personally, but the idea of being on an ALPA seniority list vs. a [insert airline here] list is worth considdering.

One of the greatest downsides of this whole career is that if something beyond your control happens to your company, you are the one that loses 5,10,20 years of seniority and pay just to start over at the beginning somewhere else.

Thats why people take concessionary contracts, because they'd rather make $10 less per hour than starting back at year 1 pay somewhere else. It probably deserves its own thread but it is an interesting idea.

I think this is only current to 2001.
www.fdatasystems.com/chuck/personal/Scabs_By_Name.pdf

You know, the scab list should include pilots from other companies outside the USA. I presently know pilots that work south of the border, Central America, and even in other places around the world that have the ability to fly in USA.

yeah, this one has an Australian airline (AFAP), but that's about it for foreign.

To borrow a line from the great green one, who does not seem to be on the forum much these days, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck."
Buy him a drink.