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View Full Version : logging time


shimmydamp
11-01-2007, 06:24 PM
A few questions about logging 121 time:

How do you separate rows in your paper logbook? A new row for each leg? Each aircraft? Each flight number?

When listing Aircraft ID do you use the flight number or N-number?

Also, I have some level d sim hours from the 121 training, was I supposed to log those in my personal logbook? instructor never mentioned anything about it, but from viewing this site it looks like i should/could have.

Thanks!


Flyboy8784
11-01-2007, 06:32 PM
i have that little red flight log...i write down the flight number....ship number.....to/from then i put my Push/In times. In the blank boxes i put Block, IMC, Night, and approaches. I also put an Asterisk next to each leg i fly. Seems to work pretty well...i had a Captain show me that when i was a new hire.

shimmydamp
11-01-2007, 06:40 PM
I have one of those Jepp Professional Pilot's Logbook, do you transfer your times from the red book to your original logbook?

Sorry for the stupid questions... still new to all this


Flyboy8784
11-01-2007, 06:42 PM
I dont know of anyone who keeps their big book with them....its too bulky...i have the pocket log book....then i transfer it to my regular logbook then onto my computer...hahahaha...sounds like alot of work, but the computer one keeps track of currency which is nice

who you workin for?

HercDriver130
11-01-2007, 06:47 PM
anybody using a palm device and the RED BOOK for the palm OS for your trip tracking then download it to your laptop or desk top when you get home....???

freezingflyboy
11-01-2007, 06:54 PM
I have one of those Jepp Professional Pilot's Logbook, do you transfer your times from the red book to your original logbook?

Sorry for the stupid questions... still new to all this

I print out a copy of my pairing when I start a trip and then keep track of the times on it as well as IMC, night, approaches and landings. Then, about once a month I transfer those to my big Jepp logbook. In the Jepp logbook I use one line for each day. If multiple aircraft or aircraft types were flown on one day, I list them sequentially in the tail number and type column and then in the to-from column I just list the whole days flying in one line. For example: IAH-MEM-EWR-YYZ. Then in the comments column I write the flight numbers and crew names and the pairing number. Has been working pretty well for me so far.

flyfresno
11-01-2007, 07:18 PM
I use logbook pro along with the palm version of the airline pilot mobile software. I load the trips onto my palm before I go (takes about 2 minutes to do) and then sync it back with my computer when I get home and all the data is imputed into logbook pro. It even alerts you about rest and duty limits. I love it, and I would never go back. Most airlines are ok with you printing that out and bringing it to an interview instead of a traditional logbook. It is a little expensive (about $120 for both software programs plus the cost of the palm or windows mobile device), but I think it's well worth it in the long run.

HercDriver130
11-01-2007, 08:08 PM
what palm device are u using.... was thinking of a treo 755.

kalyx522
11-01-2007, 08:11 PM
I have one of those Jepp Professional Pilot's Logbook, do you transfer your times from the red book to your original logbook?

Sorry for the stupid questions... still new to all this

hey if you didnt buy that little red book already (I actually have the black one with 10 legs instead of the 6 that the red comes with cuz I'm a turboprop slave) you should get it from outermarker.com... I found that their shipping is the cheapest if you're only going to get the logbook.. like $1.95.
personally i plan on transferring all the info from the little book to the real Jepp logbook, but I haven't done it since I got hired....... not looking forward to it!! I dont recommend doing this as it really piles up on you..! :eek:
and yes, definitely log that sim time, it's level D.

bizzum
11-01-2007, 08:46 PM
and yes, definitely log that sim time, it's level D.

Just remember, if you log that sim time, it is for total SIM time not total FLIGHT time. It doesn't matter if it is level D or not, it is NOT considered flight time. The only thing it is good for is for currency.

VTcharter
11-02-2007, 06:26 AM
Just remember, if you log that sim time, it is for total SIM time not total FLIGHT time. It doesn't matter if it is level D or not, it is NOT considered flight time. The only thing it is good for is for currency.

Not sure that I agree with you there.

ATP Aeronautical experience requirements
61.159(a)5, "Not more than 100 hours of total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center qualified under part 142 of this chapter."

Also reference 61.129(i)1,2 / 61.109(k)1, 2 for the same basic allowance only for use toward Commercial Certificates and Private Pilot Certificates respectively, and in these cases, the sim time may be obtained from outside of a Part 142 facility. My interpretation of these reg's in addition to the lack of reference of the in-ability to log Sim time toward total aeronautical experience leads me to conclude that appropriate approved sim time received from an instructor / approved facility may be logged as total experience, however only a certain amount may be counted toward your ratings.

Finally, reference 61.51(h)1 Logging Training Time
"A person may log training time when that person recieves training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device."

It does not specify that it may only be logged as sim...only that it may be logged as training time, and as stated previously, only a certain amount may be used toward a rating.

MoonShot
11-02-2007, 06:39 AM
I keep the "little red logbook" on the road and then transfer the times to my big lookbook at the end of the pairing (takes five minutes instead of having a mountain of time to worry about having to enter). In the big logbook, I have a line for each different aircraft per day (I use N#s). No plane swaps and I can put a four day in four lines (rarely happens though).

bizzum
11-02-2007, 06:47 AM
Not sure that I agree with you there.

ATP Aeronautical experience requirements
61.159(a)5, "Not more than 100 hours of total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center qualified under part 142 of this chapter."

Also reference 61.129(i)1,2 / 61.109(k)1, 2 for the same basic allowance only for use toward Commercial Certificates and Private Pilot Certificates respectively, and in these cases, the sim time may be obtained from outside of a Part 142 facility. My interpretation of these reg's in addition to the lack of reference of the in-ability to log Sim time toward total aeronautical experience leads me to conclude that appropriate approved sim time received from an instructor / approved facility may be logged as total experience, however only a certain amount may be counted toward your ratings.

Finally, reference 61.51(h)1 Logging Training Time
"A person may log training time when that person recieves training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device."

It does not specify that it may only be logged as sim...only that it may be logged as training time, and as stated previously, only a certain amount may be used toward a rating.

You absolutely can log it. It goes in the SIM column of your logbook. You can use that time for the purpose of a certificate, but it is NOT part of your total time. Do you really want to explain that at an interview?

VTcharter
11-02-2007, 07:24 AM
You absolutely can log it. It goes in the SIM column of your logbook. You can use that time for the purpose of a certificate, but it is NOT part of your total time. Do you really want to explain that at an interview?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I just can't find where it says that it cannot be logged as total time. It does say that it may be counted as total experience, ie total time, under part 61 and therefore it is good as total time whether it is for certification or not. It just depends who is looking at the regs and how they want to interpret them. My point is that it is not illegal, just could be interpreted differently depending on who is doing the reg reading. If I was to go to an interview, I would just be sure to have enough flight time outside of the sim to meet the requirements and if they ask why I log it the way that I do, I would simply state the same references that I stated previously. They would either like it or they wouldn't...all I know, is that I would not be wrong, just under a different interpretation. The FAA has looked at my books many times, through type ratings and 142 courses, and never had a problem wth it, but I am sure that someday I will run across someone that does. Guess I already have!

el jefe
11-02-2007, 07:51 AM
You absolutely can log it. It goes in the SIM column of your logbook. You can use that time for the purpose of a certificate, but it is NOT part of your total time. Do you really want to explain that at an interview?
I agree. But the regs are hard to interpret most of the time :p

I log it as SIM time, but do not include it in FLIGHT time totals.

Unless the SIM has wings, an engine and I am not touching the ground, I don't consider it FLIGHT time.

down2mins
11-02-2007, 08:01 AM
I print out a copy of my pairing when I start a trip and then keep track of the times on it as well as IMC, night, approaches and landings. Then, about once a month I transfer those to my big Jepp logbook. In the Jepp logbook I use one line for each day. If multiple aircraft or aircraft types were flown on one day, I list them sequentially in the tail number and type column and then in the to-from column I just list the whole days flying in one line. For example: IAH-MEM-EWR-YYZ. Then in the comments column I write the flight numbers and crew names and the pairing number. Has been working pretty well for me so far.

I do something similar. I print out my trip in the crew room and put the tail & ship # next to each leg as I fly, underline a airport when it's my landing, " * " it if it was night, and put how much was actual. At the end, I put the correct block times and if I did an approach. I'll collect them in my laptop case and transfer to my Jepp logbook at home once or twice a month.

CGreek
11-02-2007, 08:20 AM
The palm Treo with the logbook pro sounds like a good idea, will it work?
I was planing on getting the treo 700 next week anyways

Seatownflyer
11-02-2007, 09:44 AM
I use my trip sheet as well. Just circle the legs I fly, note if it was night/actual etc... When I'm done I go online to our company website and export the trip into a CSV file. Import that into Logbook pro, specify landings/actual/night etc... and I'm done. I haven't transferred anything to my big logbook yet. I'm dreading that. Although you can print out jepp style logbook pages in logbook pro, that makes it easy.

flyinDego
11-02-2007, 01:09 PM
Sure do. I have been using palm logbook pro now for a few years. Love it.

Lalo37
11-02-2007, 01:28 PM
Does anyone log approaches? I dont and the reason being we are instrument current as long as we do the sim every 6 months/1 year.
If I decide to move on to another airline, will they look at me not logging approaches as "bad"?

Pilot41
11-02-2007, 01:30 PM
anybody using a palm device and the RED BOOK for the palm OS for your trip tracking then download it to your laptop or desk top when you get home....???

Yes, but no red book or paper, Safelog. Only I use a Pocket PC, Safelog has versions for the Palm also

s10an
11-02-2007, 01:33 PM
You absolutely can log it. It goes in the SIM column of your logbook. You can use that time for the purpose of a certificate, but it is NOT part of your total time. Do you really want to explain that at an interview?

I think what he is saying is that you can use 100hrs of simtime as experience towards you ATP requirement...

Or maybe I am reading it wrong....:confused:

flyinDego
11-02-2007, 02:00 PM
Not sure that I agree with you there.

ATP Aeronautical experience requirements
61.159(a)5, "Not more than 100 hours of total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center qualified under part 142 of this chapter."

Also reference 61.129(i)1,2 / 61.109(k)1, 2 for the same basic allowance only for use toward Commercial Certificates and Private Pilot Certificates respectively, and in these cases, the sim time may be obtained from outside of a Part 142 facility. My interpretation of these reg's in addition to the lack of reference of the in-ability to log Sim time toward total aeronautical experience leads me to conclude that appropriate approved sim time received from an instructor / approved facility may be logged as total experience, however only a certain amount may be counted toward your ratings.

Finally, reference 61.51(h)1 Logging Training Time
"A person may log training time when that person recieves training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device."

It does not specify that it may only be logged as sim...only that it may be logged as training time, and as stated previously, only a certain amount may be used toward a rating.
My advice to anyone trying to get an ATP and not sure of any part of the requirments is to make a simple phone call to any of the testing places that offer it and ask them. They know that stuff cold, and believe me they want you there just as much as you want to be there ($$$). They were very helpful to me a few years back when I had some night time requirement issues.

VTcharter
11-02-2007, 03:22 PM
I believe that it can and should be logged as total time. I have found another reason to support my opinion and that is 61.57...the fact that you may log landings (night and day) for currency using a sim. If I can log takeoffs, landings and instrument time, then I am logging total as well. Anything that is loggable in the logbook, is loggable as total time. It is all aeronautical experience. Then you break it down into its subcategories; ie sim, pic, night, sic, x-c, etc.

planediveguy
11-02-2007, 04:20 PM
For those of you that got an iPhone... there is an electronic logbook similar to Logbook Pro, it is called LogTen Pro that is Mac OSX compatible and people are already working on a solution to download you schedule from the iPhone into your Mac... should be available soon

Check LogTen Pro:

http://coradine.com/

In case you loathe PC's and that Windows garbage like I do...

Pilot41
11-03-2007, 05:55 AM
I believe that it can and should be logged as total time. I have found another reason to support my opinion and that is 61.57...the fact that you may log landings (night and day) for currency using a sim. If I can log takeoffs, landings and instrument time, then I am logging total as well. Anything that is loggable in the logbook, is loggable as total time. It is all aeronautical experience. Then you break it down into its subcategories; ie sim, pic, night, sic, x-c, etc.

Better not try to use it toward Total Time for an interview.

freezingflyboy
11-03-2007, 06:07 AM
Not sure that I agree with you there.

ATP Aeronautical experience requirements
61.159(a)5, "Not more than 100 hours of total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center qualified under part 142 of this chapter."

Also reference 61.129(i)1,2 / 61.109(k)1, 2 for the same basic allowance only for use toward Commercial Certificates and Private Pilot Certificates respectively, and in these cases, the sim time may be obtained from outside of a Part 142 facility. My interpretation of these reg's in addition to the lack of reference of the in-ability to log Sim time toward total aeronautical experience leads me to conclude that appropriate approved sim time received from an instructor / approved facility may be logged as total experience, however only a certain amount may be counted toward your ratings.

Finally, reference 61.51(h)1 Logging Training Time
"A person may log training time when that person recieves training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device."

It does not specify that it may only be logged as sim...only that it may be logged as training time, and as stated previously, only a certain amount may be used toward a rating.

You absolutely can log it. It goes in the SIM column of your logbook. You can use that time for the purpose of a certificate, but it is NOT part of your total time. Do you really want to explain that at an interview?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I just can't find where it says that it cannot be logged as total time. It does say that it may be counted as total experience, ie total time, under part 61 and therefore it is good as total time whether it is for certification or not. It just depends who is looking at the regs and how they want to interpret them. My point is that it is not illegal, just could be interpreted differently depending on who is doing the reg reading. If I was to go to an interview, I would just be sure to have enough flight time outside of the sim to meet the requirements and if they ask why I log it the way that I do, I would simply state the same references that I stated previously. They would either like it or they wouldn't...all I know, is that I would not be wrong, just under a different interpretation. The FAA has looked at my books many times, through type ratings and 142 courses, and never had a problem wth it, but I am sure that someday I will run across someone that does. Guess I already have!

I agree. But the regs are hard to interpret most of the time :p

I log it as SIM time, but do not include it in FLIGHT time totals.

Unless the SIM has wings, an engine and I am not touching the ground, I don't consider it FLIGHT time.

I believe that it can and should be logged as total time. I have found another reason to support my opinion and that is 61.57...the fact that you may log landings (night and day) for currency using a sim. If I can log takeoffs, landings and instrument time, then I am logging total as well. Anything that is loggable in the logbook, is loggable as total time. It is all aeronautical experience. Then you break it down into its subcategories; ie sim, pic, night, sic, x-c, etc.

Better not try to use it toward Total Time for an interview.

Oh my gawwwwd.... You guys are part 121 pilots? Its a few drops in the ocean. Do you really think that a few hours in the sim every 6 months REALLY matters? If you are that hard up for time, pick up a day trip or something. No way anyone can dispute THAT as flight time:rolleyes:

flyinDego
11-03-2007, 04:08 PM
Oh my gawwwwd.... You guys are part 121 pilots? Its a few drops in the ocean. Do you really think that a few hours in the sim every 6 months REALLY matters? If you are that hard up for time, pick up a day trip or something. No way anyone can dispute THAT as flight time:rolleyes:
I completely understand the rush of wanting to get the apps out there ASAP, but believe me, you don't want to be in there at any interview and explaining how you "made" the numbers work. What if you forget that little conversion, or whatever you did? Could get real ugly real fast.

sulkair
01-11-2011, 03:12 PM
Ok, I'm gonna come clean here: I keep track of my flight time by downloading crewweb into a spreadsheet after every trip.

A few years ago when I transferred all my FO time over to paper logbooks (getting ready for upgrade) I used one line for each "day" of flying. I left the Ship number column blank - its still blank. (check airman for type rating didn't care)

Now that I'm back at it again - transferring that is - and trying to get the log books ready for moving up and on, I'm suddenly concerned that I can't accurately put in the Ship numbers because often there is a swap in the middle of the day. Sometimes 2 swaps. How would you guys rectify this? If I use just the tail number for the ship I started the day in will that look laZy?

TRS531
01-11-2011, 03:36 PM
Better not try to use it toward Total Time for an interview.

Agreed...When you never left the ground and it's logged as total time/flight time,etc, eyebrows will be raised.

snippercr
01-11-2011, 03:39 PM
Wow, 3 year old zombie thread. Record? Zombie kill of the week?

FLowpayFO
01-11-2011, 03:48 PM
I believe that it can and should be logged as total time. I have found another reason to support my opinion and that is 61.57...the fact that you may log landings (night and day) for currency using a sim. If I can log takeoffs, landings and instrument time, then I am logging total as well. Anything that is loggable in the logbook, is loggable as total time. It is all aeronautical experience. Then you break it down into its subcategories; ie sim, pic, night, sic, x-c, etc.

Well this makes a good point, if you can use a Level D to become current in a real airplane, why can't that sim time be used as total time? Why is the regs so fuzzy with their interpretations?

RuttR
01-11-2011, 05:13 PM
Well this makes a good point, if you can use a Level D to become current in a real airplane, why can't that sim time be used as total time? Why is the regs so fuzzy with their interpretations?

There shouldn't be any fuzziness with the regulation. The FAA considers a Level D simulator an aircraft. Which is why you can be typed in an aircraft from a Level D simulator and never stepped foot in the actual aircraft.

The question should be, do airlines consider level D simulator time towards their minimum flight time requirement when applying for a job?

I can tell you that at least one particular major airline does not. This one particular airline would even go out of their way to informing their applicants to not only not count their simulator time, but not include their PIC time before they received their private pilot certificate.
Some applicants would still come into the interview including that time in their application and when asked why they included that time, the applicants response would be "well, the FAA says I can include it." The interview would end after the interviewer reminded them they were not interviewing with the FAA that day.

If you want to keep record of your Level D time I would probably go as far as keeping it recorded in a seperate logbook. That way you're not fishing through your logbook for simulator time before applying to an airline.

FLowpayFO
01-11-2011, 08:05 PM
RuttR, so I can log that level d sim time for obtaining my ATP with the FAA, but the airlines will view it invalid? Am I missing something here? haha

knucklehead13
03-31-2012, 11:22 AM
I am at a 121 carrier and have been logging each flight on individual lines with aircraft N numbers. The thing I haven't logged however is flight numbers or crew member names. Has anyone ever seen this be a problem? Should I go back and look all of that info up?

BelowMins
03-31-2012, 12:56 PM
I am at a 121 carrier and have been logging each flight on individual lines with aircraft N numbers. The thing I haven't logged however is flight numbers or crew member names. Has anyone ever seen this be a problem? Should I go back and look all of that info up?

Yeah definitely. Make sure you also log the aircraft serial number and any MEL's it may have had. I also keep a copy of each release but I'm running out of room in my apartment.

RuttR
03-31-2012, 01:01 PM
RuttR, so I can log that level d sim time for obtaining my ATP with the FAA, but the airlines will view it invalid? Am I missing something here? haha

This is becoming a juvenile discussion. As if one has such low time that they have to include their simulator time.

To respond, I believe you're taking me out of context. If a major airline is hiring and requires 1000 hours PIC jet time and you show up with 1000 hours of PIC jet time all from a level D simulator then yes.

zildjian_zach
03-31-2012, 01:25 PM
Logging sim time? Really? Okaaaay...

duece12345
03-31-2012, 03:06 PM
So the company doesn't keep track of your flight time? Wouldn't you have to bring a company printout to any other interview? I would imagine there is a .0001 percent chance the times in your logbook would be the same as your company printout.

The Juice
04-01-2012, 08:28 AM
Logging sim time? Really? Okaaaay...

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