Airline Pilot Forums

Can any Delta pilot please help me to understand how or why:

1. there was a better offer on the table, benefiting nwa pilots and Delta pilots
2. only the seniority integration was not agreed upon.
3. nwa merger committee proposed arbitration
4. Delta MEC said no way…
5. signed there own deal with DAL management benefiting them
6. and then as part of that agreement, agreed to arbitration to settle seniority integration

why didn’t they take the better deal on the table before with the condition of arbitration?

I've heard a lot from Delta guys about what nwa merger wanted, and it sounds different than what nwa guys are hearing. I don't think this DOH, DOH, DOH that you are hearing is 100% accurate. In any case, it was clear the parties couldn't agree, and arbitration is where it was headed anyway.

Can any Delta pilot please help me to understand how or why:

1. there was a better offer on the table, benefiting nwa pilots and Delta pilots
2. only the seniority integration was not agreed upon.
3. nwa merger committee proposed arbitration
4. Delta MEC said no way…
5. signed there own deal with DAL management benefiting them
6. and then as part of that agreement, agreed to arbitration to settle seniority integration

why didn’t they take the better deal on the table before with the condition of arbitration?

I've heard a lot from Delta guys about what nwa merger wanted, and it sounds different than what nwa guys are hearing. I don't think this DOH, DOH, DOH that you are hearing is 100% accurate. In any case, it was clear the parties couldn't agree, and arbitration is where it was headed anyway.

Who says it was the Delta guys who walked away? Listening to the Delta MEC it was the NW guys who left. According to NW, it was the DL guys. Who's right and who's wrong? (This is a rhetorical question.) I feel both sides share the blame for not completing the deal. I guess in the long run we all better be ready for BOHICA.

I've heard a lot from Delta guys about what nwa merger wanted, and it sounds different than what nwa guys are hearing. I don't think this DOH, DOH, DOH that you are hearing is 100% accurate. In any case, it was clear the parties couldn't agree, and arbitration is where it was headed anyway.

You are correct DOH was not their opener . NW wanted better than DOH to compensate for upcoming retirements. Which I think would be cool if we also counted airframe retirements. Oh wait, we would be one happy family when it came to parking aircraft but when it came to retirements we had to protect the "NW retirements." Sound fair to you?

Scoop

You are correct DOH was not their opener . NW wanted better than DOH to compensate for upcoming retirements. Which I think would be cool if we also counted airframe retirements. Oh wait, we would be one happy family when it came to parking aircraft but when it came to retirements we had to protect the "NW retirements." Sound fair to you?

Scoop

So you are still avoiding the main question. If both parties couldn't agree, why was arbitration a deal breaker initially, but then later it was ok.... after leaving your alpa brothers behind?

So you are still avoiding the main question. If both parties couldn't agree, why was arbitration a deal breaker initially, but then later it was ok.... after leaving your alpa brothers behind?

Pick an important life-changing, career decision in your life that you are having difficulty deciding on.....
Ready,
Now since that career decision is so difficult for you to make, why not have someone else make that decision for you? With that decision being final.
Arbitration should be a last case scenario, it's the easy out and in no way guarantees that everyone gets a fair deal.

We haven't left our ALPA brother's behind, I wouldn't be so quick on making snap judgements like that. The contract is a foundation for an even better contract after an adequate SLI can be achieved.

Who told you it's going to arbitration?

So you are still avoiding the main question. If both parties couldn't agree, why was arbitration a deal breaker initially, but then later it was ok.... after leaving your alpa brothers behind?

The Joint contract that was reached between Delta, NWA and the company was only valid with a complete SLI done at the same time. It was a 3 way deal. We had to have agreements between management at both companies, a joint contract and the SLI list done. The Delta chairmans letter has been posted here that details what happened. The new contract was not valid if the SLI went to arbitration. Arbitration is a long process that can take 1 to 2 years. The company wanted a done deal upfront. They felt that being able to integrate the airlines quickly would give them advantages over other airlines that would translate into cash. They were willing to share that cash with the pilots. The company had in fact stated that absent all 3 items complete there would be no merger.
The company changed their mind on the merger. Some say fuel prices and some say they were going to do it all along. We will never know. The joint contract was long gone at this point. Dalpa's contract had several items in the scope section that would have made a merger expensive for Delta. Delta asked for waivers on those items. Mainly it dealt with Midwest Express, Total number of RJ's and restrictions on international code share hours. Dalpa agreed to those changes in exchange for higher raises then the old contract. 3.5% more in 09. This is a LOA not a new contract. Delta has pointed out from the day of the merger annoucement that a joint contract has to be negotiated with Delta and NWA. Delta has no legal or other ability to renegotiate the NWA working agreement. Can you imagine the screaming if we tried to change NWA's contract. That is up to the NWA pilots. No one has been left behind. In fact exactly the opposite has occurred. Dalpa has raised the bar for the joint contract and insured higher raises for everyone. If both sides get their act together LOA 19 should never ever take effect. We will all work under a new joint contract. The only thing any NWA pilot should be mad about on LOA 19 was that we did not get more.

One last thing to point out. In every prior Delta merger going back to Chicago and Southern the pilots were brought up to Delta pay over a period of years. Dalpa insistend and helped achieve immediate pay parity in the joint contract that did not go into effect. Hopefully we can achieve the same on the joint contract to come.

The reason this was restarted is because the investors and creditors insisted it happen. Don't paint Delta as the good guy, money is at the insistance of the investors and creditors and the deal will happen with or without the cooperation of Delta or Northwest pilots so board the train it's about to leave the station!

You are correct DOH was not their opener . NW wanted better than DOH to compensate for upcoming retirements. Which I think would be cool if we also counted airframe retirements. Oh wait, we would be one happy family when it came to parking aircraft but when it came to retirements we had to protect the "NW retirements." Sound fair to you?

Scoop

Feel free to post your source. Otherwise, you are makin this ****** up...

So you are still avoiding the main question. If both parties couldn't agree, why was arbitration a deal breaker initially, but then later it was ok.... after leaving your alpa brothers behind?

You have bad information - The DAL pilot group does not want arbitration and will do everything short of rolling over for the NW guys to avoid it.
Scoop

No one has been left behind.

Let's hope this is true. I am not sure you guys had much of a choice, but it's interesting that it just 'happened' to put you in a power position.

Now, if the seniority list is arbitrated and you guys don't like the result, you can stall until 2012, still operating under your LOA.

I guess we'll see the outcome in "Flying the line : Volume 3"

Feel free to post your source. Otherwise, you are makin this ****** up...

I am trying to figure out how to post my MEC rep on this website since he told me but I dont know how to post a person yet. I have said previously that they will not post it in writing but you are right they could have been lying to me but I doubt it.
Scoop

Now, if the seniority list is arbitrated and you guys don't like the result, you can stall until 2012, still operating under your LOA.



Not if you guys help negotiate a joint contract first!

Of course, your current position is opposition to the merger. If it goes through, then what?

delta doesn't have to budge on their last offer. they hold all of the cards now. pay rates and no furlough clauses. if nwa doesn't give in to deltas idea of SLI they potentially would be losing alot of money and could bear the brunt of any or all furloughs if they shift flying around. like someone said arbitration could take 1-2 years. they seem to be saying they don't want arbitration but they are coming to the realisation that it might be the only way.

I don't see why delta would have to come off of their last offer (what ever that is) they don't loose anything by sticking to their guns. nwa on the other hand looses out on possible equity, furlough protection and pay rates.

delta doesn't have to budge on their last offer. they hold all of the cards now. pay rates and no furlough clauses. if nwa doesn't give in to deltas idea of SLI they potentially would be losing alot of money and could bear the brunt of any or all furloughs if they shift flying around. like someone said arbitration could take 1-2 years. they seem to be saying they don't want arbitration but they are coming to the realisation that it might be the only way.

I don't see why delta would have to come off of their last offer (what ever that is) they don't loose anything by sticking to their guns. nwa on the other hand looses out on possible equity, furlough protection and pay rates.


NWA just raised the amount of money Steenland will receive if he stays until this merger is complete. It was reported a few weeks back that Steenland could leave in June with a big pay-out, now the board wants him to stay to carry this deal thru. management and the board at nwa wants this. i highly doubt that any labor force is going to stop this merger with their opposition. the nwa pilots have more to lose than gain by opposing this. the NWA MEC needs to swallow their hurt egos and come back to the table...their are a lot of guys/gals that are putting their livelyhood in their hands.

NWA just raised the amount of money Steenland will receive if he stays until this merger is complete. It was reported a few weeks back that Steenland could leave in June with a big pay-out, now the board wants him to stay to carry this deal thru. management and the board at nwa wants this. i highly doubt that any labor force is going to stop this merger with their opposition. the nwa pilots have more to lose than gain by opposing this. the NWA MEC needs to swallow their hurt egos and come back to the table...their are a lot of guys/gals that are putting their livelyhood in their hands.

I think that the nwa guys are kidding themselves if they actually believe they can stop this. I would hope it's more posturing so that the bus doesn't run them over but pick them up as it goes by. it's their only card they have left to play. otherwise you probably would have heard someone say that they will be included in the equity and pay but we both know airline managements doesn't play nice.

if nwa mec swallows their hurt egos and returns to the table do you think delta mec will negociate or hold firm to their last offer?

The reason this was restarted is because the investors and creditors insisted it happen. Don't paint Delta as the good guy, money is at the insistance of the investors and creditors and the deal will happen with or without the cooperation of Delta or Northwest pilots so board the train it's about to leave the station!

The sad part is, Wall St. wanted this merger. Now that it happened they don't. Both stocks are off 20% from the date of merger and are near their post bankruptcy lows. Wall St. is after the quick buck not about long term health and viability of a company. I used to be a believer in the stock market. That view has been changing over the past couple of years.

The sad part is, Wall St. wanted this merger. Now that it happened they don't. Both stocks are off 20% from the date of merger and are near their post bankruptcy lows. Wall St. is after the quick buck not about long term health and viability of a company. I used to be a believer in the stock market. That view has been changing over the past couple of years.


I was surprised as well how fast Wall Street can change their minds, kinda like our women... In a economic downturn, most managers try to cover their losses and do not look too far ahead in the future, and especially not care about the company's employees.

And I also think if the deal should be off in the future, it's not because of us, it's because of the hedge fund managers finding a better employee group to screw with than us. At that time, i'll silently say a prayer.

I think that the nwa guys are kidding themselves if they actually believe they can stop this. I would hope it's more posturing so that the bus doesn't run them over but pick them up as it goes by. it's their only card they have left to play. otherwise you probably would have heard someone say that they will be included in the equity and pay but we both know airline managements doesn't play nice.

if nwa mec swallows their hurt egos and returns to the table do you think delta mec will negociate or hold firm to their last offer?


If NWA MEC presents a better intergration ratio than .5%, than I certainly hope DAL MEC, have their ears open. But I don't think that's going to happen.

If NWA MEC presents a better intergration ratio than .5%, than I certainly hope DAL MEC, have their ears open. But I don't think that's going to happen.

I'll take that as a hold firm.

Feel free to post your source. Otherwise, you are makin this ****** up...

I agree! Pls show your source

If NWA MEC presents a better intergration ratio than .5%, than I certainly hope DAL MEC, have their ears open. But I don't think that's going to happen.

Where is your source for this information? I just would like to see it with my eyes so that we can move on from this rumour stuff.

Can any Delta pilot please help me to understand how or why:

1. there was a better offer on the table, benefiting nwa pilots and Delta pilots
2. only the seniority integration was not agreed upon.
3. nwa merger committee proposed arbitration
4. Delta MEC said no way…
5. signed there own deal with DAL management benefiting them
6. and then as part of that agreement, agreed to arbitration to settle seniority integration

why didn’t they take the better deal on the table before with the condition of arbitration?

I've heard a lot from Delta guys about what nwa merger wanted, and it sounds different than what nwa guys are hearing. I don't think this DOH, DOH, DOH that you are hearing is 100% accurate. In any case, it was clear the parties couldn't agree, and arbitration is where it was headed anyway.

You've really made a cogent point here. There aren't too many things that we know for sure, but this is one: DALPA refused arbitration prior to their signing of the LOA that gave only themselves pay raises. Once the LOA was signed, DALPA is now agreeing to an arbitration process for the SLI. This was stated in the video presentation by the NWA MEC Chairman a few days ago and has not been refuted by DALPA. So it begs the question, why would DALPA refuse arbitration (which appears to have been the only sticking point from keeping NWA to agreeing to a combined contract), then agree to arbitration after the LOA was signed? A cynical person might believe it was done because the last thing DALPA wants is a combined contract until after the NWA fleet reductions and furloughs. The problem with this strategy (if it is their strategy) is that there is already precedent for this in arbitration, and some arbitrated decisions took a snapshot of the fleets on the DAY THE MERGER WAS ANNOUNCED. Will that happen here, who knows.

Carl

You've really made a cogent point here. There aren't too many things that we know for sure, but this is one: DALPA refused arbitration prior to their signing of the LOA that gave only themselves pay raises. Once the LOA was signed, DALPA is now agreeing to an arbitration process for the SLI. This was stated in the video presentation by the NWA MEC Chairman a few days ago and has not been refuted by DALPA. So it begs the question, why would DALPA refuse arbitration (which appears to have been the only sticking point from keeping NWA to agreeing to a combined contract), then agree to arbitration after the LOA was signed? A cynical person might believe it was done because the last thing DALPA wants is a combined contract until after the NWA fleet reductions and furloughs. The problem with this strategy (if it is their strategy) is that there is already precedent for this in arbitration, and some arbitrated decisions took a snapshot of the fleets on the DAY THE MERGER WAS ANNOUNCED. Will that happen here, who knows.

Carl

This merger was going to happen PERIOD!!!! The DAL MEC DID NOT agree to arbritation. It is a result of the merger going thru regardless. Oil has topped 117 barrel. It keeps going up everyday. Just how long do you guys propose to oppose this merger, before you realize that you cannot stop it. what a waste of time, money and energy for nothing. Just my opinion, take for it it's worth.

This merger was going to happen PERIOD!!!! The DAL MEC DID NOT agree to arbritation. It is a result of the merger going thru regardless. Oil has topped 117 barrel. It keeps going up everyday. Just how long do you guys propose to oppose this merger, before you realize that you cannot stop it. what a waste of time, money and energy for nothing. Just my opinion, take for it it's worth.

As my earlier post states, all indications are that the DAL MEC HAS INDEED agreed to arbitration now that the LOA is signed. I think there is a better than even chance that the DAL MEC did it by design. A combined agreement would not have allowed a fleet reduction and furlough on the NWA side only. The one-sided LOA does allow for that to happen now.

All items to a combined agreement were agreed to except the SLI, and NWA proposed arbitration as a method to clear that hurdle and sign a combined agreement. DALPA refused arbitration, signed an LOA, and now AGREES to arbitration. The DALPA strategy appears to be pretty clear, and my opinion is that ALPA national is stunned by this strategy.

Carl

As my earlier post states, all indications are that the DAL MEC HAS INDEED agreed to arbitration now that the LOA is signed. I think there is a better than even chance that the DAL MEC did it by design. A combined agreement would not have allowed a fleet reduction and furlough on the NWA side only. The one-sided LOA does allow for that to happen now.

All items to a combined agreement were agreed to except the SLI, and NWA proposed arbitration as a method to clear that hurdle and sign a combined agreement. DALPA refused arbitration, signed an LOA, and now AGREES to arbitration. The DALPA strategy appears to be pretty clear, and my opinion is that ALPA national is stunned by this strategy.

Carl

Carl, what happened was that under the pre-merger route, we were both working outside ALPA merger policy and management wanted a deal done with no arbitration. Now that that ship has sailed, we are concluding this via the ALPA merger policy which calls for arbitration if a deal can't be worked out. Understand now? It wasn't some Machevalian scheme to screw anybody. It was an attempt to redefine how mergers are conducted. Since it didn't work, we are going the old-school route.

Carl, what happened was that under the pre-merger route, we were both working outside ALPA merger policy and management wanted a deal done with no arbitration. Now that that ship has sailed, we are concluding this via the ALPA merger policy which calls for arbitration if a deal can't be worked out. Understand now? It wasn't some Machevalian scheme to screw anybody. It was an attempt to redefine how mergers are conducted. Since it didn't work, we are going the old-school route.

I've been very hesitant to believe this, but I think the evidence is pointing to the DAL MEC doing just as I have stated. DALPA never said "we don't want arbitration because management doesn't want us to do it" they simply said no arbitration - we refuse. I believe DALPA HAD to say this when NWA agreed to all points of the combined contract except SLI. Once NWA agreed to everything else, the only way DALPA could obtain their one-sided agreement was to find a way to scuttle the process. They found it by saying no to arbitration until the LOA, then agreeing to arbitration. I guess you could say: DAL was against arbitration before they were for it. :eek:

There is a sad consequence to all this. Since the two managements agreed to have Delta be the acquiring carrier, Delta can "suggest" to NWA management that fleet reductions and furloughs begin in earnest. This will nullify the need for Delta to reduce fleet size and furlough. When arbitration begins, DALPA's position will be that anyone furloughed should go to the bottom of the list. If my possible portrayal ends up being correct, how would the Delta pilots define "integrity" then??

Carl

I've been very hesitant to believe this, but I think the evidence is pointing to the DAL MEC doing just as I have stated. DALPA never said "we don't want arbitration because management doesn't want us to do it" they simply said no arbitration - we refuse. I believe DALPA HAD to say this when NWA agreed to all points of the combined contract except SLI. Once NWA agreed to everything else, the only way DALPA could obtain their one-sided agreement was to find a way to scuttle the process. They found it by saying no to arbitration until the LOA, then agreeing to arbitration. I guess you could say: DAL was against arbitration before they were for it. :eek:

There is a sad consequence to all this. Since the two managements agreed to have Delta be the acquiring carrier, Delta can "suggest" to NWA management that fleet reductions and furloughs begin in earnest. This will nullify the need for Delta to reduce fleet size and furlough. When arbitration begins, DALPA's position will be that anyone furloughed should go to the bottom of the list. If my possible portrayal ends up being correct, how would the Delta pilots define "integrity" then??

Carl


Carl,

Whatever Dude!! Good luck to ya...I'm done beating a dead horse.

I've been very hesitant to believe this, but I think the evidence is pointing to the DAL MEC doing just as I have stated. DALPA never said "we don't want arbitration because management doesn't want us to do it" they simply said no arbitration - we refuse. I believe DALPA HAD to say this when NWA agreed to all points of the combined contract except SLI. Once NWA agreed to everything else, the only way DALPA could obtain their one-sided agreement was to find a way to scuttle the process. They found it by saying no to arbitration until the LOA, then agreeing to arbitration. I guess you could say: DAL was against arbitration before they were for it. :eek:

There is a sad consequence to all this. Since the two managements agreed to have Delta be the acquiring carrier, Delta can "suggest" to NWA management that fleet reductions and furloughs begin in earnest. This will nullify the need for Delta to reduce fleet size and furlough. When arbitration begins, DALPA's position will be that anyone furloughed should go to the bottom of the list. If my possible portrayal ends up being correct, how would the Delta pilots define "integrity" then??

Carl
You give them too much credit to think up something like that!

So all along everyone is saying, "Do the deal" yet the true motivation is to let everyone think the deal is there but in reality the "illuminati of Delta" have already decided how they are going to screw the NW pilots? How about this version: The job of the DL MEC is to protect my seniority from you guys, and the fact that they wouldn't roll over for you and agree to your terms is the reason there was no agreement.

There is no way to please you. Every time you post something of a he said/he said nature and it gets refuted, you just spout out something totally different. Do you see black helicopters flying around with widgets on them? You are now claiming that there is some conspiracy against the NW pilots involving the DL MEC and both managements. From other posts, it looks like NW is surplusing DC-9 pilots and I even heard that there were some displacements on the 747-200. I suppose you feel that this is our fault somehow? I guess $117 oil doesn't play into it. You can't even wait for the merger to be official and there to be an SLI, you already are spouting the "I got f'ed" line.

Whenever anyone else posts something, you tell em, "that's just a rumor, you have no facts." Well same at ya. What you posted about the DL MEC's plan is nothing more than YOUR version of what happened and is nothing more than garbage, posted here to inflame. If you have proof of your allegations, show us, because that is what it is, an allegation of collusion, pure hearsey, bordering on slander. If you have no proof, then you need to delete your post, because it serves no useful purpose without the proof.

Another example of not even reading the post before you go ballistic. If you had you would have read me saying "possible portrayal" and "I believe." Everyone has to make judgements based on the best information that can be obtained. I'm starting to see a worst case scenario possibility that is pretty awful.

The proof will come when DAL begins the long discussed process of getting the NW guys aboard as quick as possible. So far, I've seen nothing of the sort from DALPA or DAL management. Just silence as NWA starts the talk of fleet reduction and displacements. Most interesting though, that same talk at Delta prior to the LOA is no longer being heard.

Whether my worst case scenario plays out, or DALPA puts on a full court press to get a combined contract and an SLI ASAP - only time will tell.

And by the way, demanding that someone deletes a post that you don't like is the closest thing to an internet tantrum that I've ever heard.

Carl

The Joint contract that was reached between Delta, NWA and the company was only valid with a complete SLI done at the same time. It was a 3 way deal. We had to have agreements between management at both companies, a joint contract and the SLI list done. .

I think that your argument just blames the offer from management, and that wasn't the case. Delta MEC said "no arbitration." If arbitration was agreed to and if there was an agreement to all other sections of a new contract, then you wouldn't have the delay ploy being used at USAir/HP. The parties could agree to everything, and then once the arbitration is complete, it would be done. You aren't losing any time vs. doing the SLI first because you cannot put mix pilots any quicker anyway. Look at the time it took to get TWA pilots flying AA procedures and mixing the group. So the company savings would have still been there.

It was the Delta MEC that said "No Arbitration" period... and that was the ONLY sticking point after the meetings. Now there isn't any joint contract and so the delay stuff you see at USAir and HP is a real threat. And... the company cost saving are GONE. Now you say nwa pilots should trust the Delta MEC???

delta doesn't have to budge on their last offer. they hold all of the cards now. pay rates and no furlough clauses. if nwa doesn't give in to deltas idea of SLI they potentially would be losing alot of money and could bear the brunt of any or all furloughs if they shift flying around. like someone said arbitration could take 1-2 years. they seem to be saying they don't want arbitration but they are coming to the realisation that it might be the only way.

I don't see why delta would have to come off of their last offer (what ever that is) they don't loose anything by sticking to their guns. nwa on the other hand looses out on possible equity, furlough protection and pay rates.

I don't think most NWA pilots understand LOA 19. It does not nor was it designed to give the Delta pilots more leverage. The agreement does not go into effect until the deal is closed. Even then its only minor changes to the current contract. The contract everyone needs is the new joint contract. Hopefully it will be done prior to the integration. The SLI is however going to take a long time. At the moment it can take up to a year to get a federal arbitrator even assigned. The feds also normally will not assign a arbitrator until both groups have gone through the mediation process.

I think that your argument just blames the offer from management, and that wasn't the case. Delta MEC said "no arbitration." If arbitration was agreed to and if there was an agreement to all other sections of a new contract, then you wouldn't have the delay ploy being used at USAir/HP. The parties could agree to everything, and then once the arbitration is complete, it would be done. You aren't losing any time vs. doing the SLI first because you cannot put mix pilots any quicker anyway. Look at the time it took to get TWA pilots flying AA procedures and mixing the group. So the company savings would have still been there.

It was the Delta MEC that said "No Arbitration" period... and that was the ONLY sticking point after the meetings. Now there isn't any joint contract and so the delay stuff you see at USAir and HP is a real threat. And... the company cost saving are GONE. Now you say nwa pilots should trust the Delta MEC???

Your information is very wrong. Delta purchased Western in Dec of 86. They had the airlines integrated and running together in Apr of 87. Again the joint contract came with a stipulation that all 3 parts were put together. It was never available if we went to arbitration. It was also negotiated with oil at 90 dollars a barrel. It was gone and off the table weeks ago. Arbitration would take at least 2 years and then could drag on for years after with lawsuits ect... The company wanted a done deal that could be relied upon. They did not want arbitration. The list will now go to arbitration because the company made a choice to do the deal with or without the pilots. LOA 19 that the company signed was very cheap. It trades a 1.5 to 6% payraise 1 Jan 09 for a fixed 5%. The other items were pennies. We need to get to work on the joint contract. Dalpa is ready and willing to sit down with the NWA pilots and start the joint contract at anytime.

I don't think most NWA pilots understand LOA 19. It does not nor was it designed to give the Delta pilots more leverage. The agreement does not go into effect until the deal is closed. Even then its only minor changes to the current contract. The contract everyone needs is the new joint contract. Hopefully it will be done prior to the integration. The SLI is however going to take a long time. At the moment it can take up to a year to get a federal arbitrator even assigned. The feds also normally will not assign a arbitrator until both groups have gone through the mediation process.

I think NWA pilots understand LOA 19 quite well. Your opinion that it was not designed to give Delta pilots more leverage is just that...you're opinion. Unless you were in the room negotiating it with DAL management, you don't know.

We also know the agreement doesn't go into effect until the deal is closed. When it does go into effect, it allows the new Delta to capture revenue by allowing NWA wide bodies to continue to fly international routes that would have to have been halted without the changes granted in LOA 19. For this change that affected NWA aircraft, only Delta pilots receive pay raises. Moreover, the no furlough clause for Delta pilots only would MANDATE that only NWA pilots could be furloughed. Since prior to the LOA, both airlines were publicly stating the need for capacity reduction, this reduction could only come from the NWA side. This is of course unless NWA pilots agree to an SLI crafted by the DAL MEC outside of the arbitration process. Once again, it's called leverage.

Carl

Your information is very wrong. Delta purchased Western in Dec of 86. They had the airlines integrated and running together in Apr of 87. Again the joint contract came with a stipulation that all 3 parts were put together. It was never available if we went to arbitration. It was also negotiated with oil at 90 dollars a barrel. It was gone and off the table weeks ago. Arbitration would take at least 2 years and then could drag on for years after with lawsuits ect... The company wanted a done deal that could be relied upon. They did not want arbitration. The list will now go to arbitration because the company made a choice to do the deal with or without the pilots. LOA 19 that the company signed was very cheap. It trades a 1.5 to 6% payraise 1 Jan 09 for a fixed 5%. The other items were pennies. We need to get to work on the joint contract. Dalpa is ready and willing to sit down with the NWA pilots and start the joint contract at anytime.

I guess we will see once the parties try to resume negotiations. I appreciate your response, although I'm not sure I completely agree. I wouldn't call equity in the company, a raise, seat on the board, and a no furlough clause as being "very cheap." I hope for everyone involved that the company doesn't capitalize on this potential divide. The history of MEC's figuring this stuff out isn't great. The "fair" ground in all of this isn't easy to find, and pilots tend to be willing to throw other pilot groups under the bus. I hope this works out.

I think NWA pilots understand LOA 19 quite well. Your opinion that it was not designed to give Delta pilots more leverage is just that...you're opinion. Unless you were in the room negotiating it with DAL management, you don't know.

We also know the agreement doesn't go into effect until the deal is closed. When it does go into effect, it allows the new Delta to capture revenue by allowing NWA wide bodies to continue to fly international routes that would have to have been halted without the changes granted in LOA 19. For this change that affected NWA aircraft, only Delta pilots receive pay raises. Moreover, the no furlough clause for Delta pilots only would MANDATE that only NWA pilots could be furloughed. Since prior to the LOA, both airlines were publicly stating the need for capacity reduction, this reduction could only come from the NWA side. This is of course unless NWA pilots agree to an SLI crafted by the DAL MEC outside of the arbitration process. Once again, it's called leverage.

Carl

Well put....

The list will now go to arbitration because the company made a choice to do the deal with or without the pilots.

You mean the company made a choice to do the deal with or without the NWA pilots.

Dalpa is ready and willing to sit down with the NWA pilots and start the joint contract at anytime.

Then I will be looking forward with baited breath to the invitation from DALPA to begin talks again with their NWA brothers. That will be the best indication that DALPA is willing to sit down with NWA anytime anywhere...don't you think?

Carl

Then I will be looking forward with baited breath to the invitation from DALPA to begin talks again with their NWA brothers. That will be the best indication that DALPA is willing to sit down with NWA anytime anywhere...don't you think?

Carl

How do you know that the offer to sit down hasn't already been proffered by the DL MEC and it's NW that is stalling? Unless you have some proof that your MEC hasn't been invited back or you are actually an MEC member and know for sure that the offer hasn't been made.

How do you know that the offer to sit down hasn't already been proffered by the DL MEC and it's NW that is stalling? Unless you have some proof that your MEC hasn't been invited back or you are actually an MEC member and know for sure that the offer hasn't been made.

That is a very good point, and one I had not considered. But now that I've had time to consider it, I can't find a reason in the world how stalling would beneift NWALPA. But maybe they've all gone insane simultaneously - in which case it makes sense to them. On the other hand, I can see that if DALPA were to just stiff arm any attempt at negotiating outside of the process of arbitration, it would mandate that (when the merger is closed) if furloughs needed to occur, they only occur on the NWA side until the arbitrated SLI award was made. History shows us that could take years, while displacements and furloughs on the NW side continued. This could be a huge advantage if the arbitrator takes the position that the SLI only pertains to pilots actually on the property - which has happened in past arbitrations. The fewer NW guys on the property, the more NW guys end up stapled to the back of the new SLI.

In this era where real facts are so scarce, sometimes the best investigative method is to determine who stands to gain the most versus who stands to lose the most. Given the above, there appears to be no "business" advantage for DALPA to do anything but rebuff anything but the arbitration process. If it is really DALPA that is making offers to negotiate, it would be easy enough for them to issue a press release setting a time and place for negotiations. That would put NWALPA in the position of having to publicly decline.

Carl

PS: Trust me on this: since I am considered "relatively senior" there is no place for me on our MEC.

From the Delta chairmans letter:

"But let’s be clear about one thing in particular: the Delta MEC welcomes the Northwest pilots as partners in the building of the new merged airline, and we look forward to working with the Northwest MEC to bring about the rapid completion of a new joint contract and a fair and equitable integrated seniority list to take effect on the effective date of the new joint agreement."

Words of course don't mean very much. Actions mean a great deal. Actions as I have outlined in my previous post. Continued inaction on the part of the DALPA leader will just lend credence to the worst case scenario possibility. It's all about actions.

Carl

.... there appears to be no "business" advantage for DALPA to do anything but rebuff anything but the arbitration process.

If they can see beyond the end of their noses, there are many advantages to cutting a deal with NWALPA. Arbitration is always a crapshoot, and will probably guarantee an angry, divided pilot group. A little statesmanlike "give" now could pay big dividends in the next showdown with management, which is sure to come.

If it is really DALPA that is making offers to negotiate, it would be easy enough for them to issue a press release setting a time and place for negotiations. That would put NWALPA in the position of having to publicly decline.

And that's why they shouldn't go public. If you appear to have a temporary advantage, that's the ideal time to give your opponent "face", instead of cornering him, especially if you will need him on your team shortly. DALPA has shown its power; now it is time to demonstrate wisdom.

Very well stated Tom.

Carl

17 PERCENT raise over 4 yrs schould just about keep up with inflation:D
great deal you guys got ,now if it had been 10 percent per year for 4 years now were talking 40 percent ,sounds better does it not?:eek:

17 PERCENT raise over 4 yrs schould just about keep up with inflation:D
great deal you guys got ,now if it had been 10 percent per year for 4 years now were talking 40 percent ,sounds better does it not?:eek:

When was the last time you saw a pay increase to both groups in a merger?

The problem is the U.S. Dollar which is one of if not the main reason for the increase in the price of oil. It is my understanding that oil could go as high as $140 to $150 a barrel and neither DAL or NWA could last very long in that environment. Together it's likely they could. The investers and major creditors are aware of this potential problem and offered cash to make this deal work. It is a matter of staying in business and weathering the storm . Why is it so difficult for the majority of pilots to realize that a spirit of cooperation is necessary to perhaps continue to survive in these turbulent time.

When was the last time you saw a pay increase to both groups in a merger?

The problem is the U.S. Dollar which is one of if not the main reason for the increase in the price of oil. It is my understanding that oil could go as high as $140 to $150 a barrel and neither DAL or NWA could last very long in that environment. Together it's likely they could. The investers and major creditors are aware of this potential problem and offered cash to make this deal work. It is a matter of staying in business and weathering the storm . Why is it so difficult for the majority of pilots to realize that a spirit of cooperation is necessary to perhaps continue to survive in these turbulent time.

what other mergers only offered pay to 1 of the groups.

If they can see beyond the end of their noses, there are many advantages to cutting a deal with NWALPA. Arbitration is always a crapshoot, and will probably guarantee an angry, divided pilot group. A little statesmanlike "give" now could pay big dividends in the next showdown with management, which is sure to come.



And that's why they shouldn't go public. If you appear to have a temporary advantage, that's the ideal time to give your opponent "face", instead of cornering him, especially if you will need him on your team shortly. DALPA has shown its power; now it is time to demonstrate wisdom.Very wise post. I'm anxiously awaiting to see the actions that will back the words posted earlier. Time to see if the bus is going to get put in reverse or not!

You may not think so but pay increase is there for both groups. If you think the creditors and investors want problems in this merger between the pilot groups your sadly mistaken. The money is coming from them and was a thank you for cooperation. No cooperation no money.

You may not think so but pay increase is there for both groups. If you think the creditors and investors want problems in this merger between the pilot groups your sadly mistaken. The money is coming from them and was a thank you for cooperation. No cooperation no money.

Interesting concept: "no cooperation, no money." What if DAL management came to the senior DAL pilots and said that we need a B scale for junior pilots in order to save money, and while we know that will have the potential to create dissention, we will give you a small pay bump in return. While you are mulling it over, remember this: "no cooperation, no money." Exactly how much import do you give to cooperation? Is there no limit? Now I know you're saying "it's not the same thing, NWA pilots are not DAL pilots yet!@#*!" "We would never do that to OUR pilots...again." What I am trying to illustrate is what a slippery slope it is once you accept someone's offer to divide.

If the above hypothetical sounds familiar, it is exactly what happened in 1982. The airline was AMR. The proposal was the industry's first B scale. When the B scale guys became the majority, these "killer bees" were able to exact some revenge on those senior guys - much to the delight of AMR management as division was probably their primary motivation all along. Just something to think about.

Carl

Interesting concept: "no cooperation, no money." What if DAL management came to the senior DAL pilots and said that we need a B scale for junior pilots in order to save money, and while we know that will have the potential to create dissention, we will give you a small pay bump in return. While you are mulling it over, remember this: "no cooperation, no money." Exactly how much import do you give to cooperation? Is there no limit? Now I know you're saying "it's not the same thing, NWA pilots are not DAL pilots yet!@#*!" "We would never do that to OUR pilots...again." What I am trying to illustrate is what a slippery slope it is once you accept someone's offer to divide.

If the above hypothetical sounds familiar, it is exactly what happened in 1982. The airline was AMR. The proposal was the industry's first B scale. When the B scale guys became the majority, these "killer bees" were able to exact some revenge on those senior guys - much to the delight of AMR management as division was probably their primary motivation all along. Just something to think about.

Carl

Good grief Carl, you can what-if these kinds of scenerios all day long and come up with someting that would make YOUR point. Why don't you try for once to look on the positive side of this deal? You will be safe in your whale, flying your 8 days/month, and nobody is going to take it away from you.

Good grief Carl, you can what-if these kinds of scenerios all day long and come up with someting that would make YOUR point. Why don't you try for once to look on the positive side of this deal? You will be safe in your whale, flying your 8 days/month, and nobody is going to take it away from you.

Then why don't you say something that makes YOUR point. And what is your point?

Carl

Then why don't you say something that makes YOUR point. And what is your point?

Carl


My point is Carl, that you are so quick to condemn anything that DALPA has done as being anti-NWA. Nothing could be further from the truth. You seem to have no capability for any critical thought outside of what you supposedly hear from your MEC. Somewone posted that the NWA pilots would receive a 30% raise. You poo-pooed that as being completely false. Do you honestly think that WHEN this deal goes thru, (and believe you me, it IS gong to happen) the NWA pilots will be stuck at their current payrates? I haven't seen this for myself, but I have heard that DALPA had negotiated rates on the 747. IF that is true, that will be YOUR payrate my friend... you're welcome. Do you honestly think that you are going to see that kind of pay increase at a stand alone NWA? The payrates and the subsequent payrates will come to the NWA pilots as soon as the SLI is completed. Equity, I don't know how that is going to work, but I wouldn't be surprised for you to get a little somethin' somethin' too in that regard. Of course this is just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but at least I am open to looking out the window now and then.

My point is Carl, that you are so quick to condemn anything that DALPA has done as being anti-NWA. Nothing could be further from the truth. You seem to have no capability for any critical thought outside of what you supposedly hear from your MEC. Somewone posted that the NWA pilots would receive a 30% raise. You poo-pooed that as being completely false. Do you honestly think that WHEN this deal goes thru, (and believe you me, it IS gong to happen) the NWA pilots will be stuck at their current payrates? I haven't seen this for myself, but I have heard that DALPA had negotiated rates on the 747. IF that is true, that will be YOUR payrate my friend... you're welcome. Do you honestly think that you are going to see that kind of pay increase at a stand alone NWA? The payrates and the subsequent payrates will come to the NWA pilots as soon as the SLI is completed. Equity, I don't know how that is going to work, but I wouldn't be surprised for you to get a little somethin' somethin' too in that regard. Of course this is just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but at least I am open to looking out the window now and then.

you're asking him to see the positive, can you see all of the negatives for nwa? the leverage that delta now holds over nwa in regards to the SLI.

you're asking him to see the positive, can you see all of the negatives for nwa? the leverage that delta now holds over nwa in regards to the SLI.

Guys relax,
Once we conclude a SLI both pilot pilot groups will achieve total conciousness - so at least we have that going for us - Right Carl?

:) Scoop

Guys relax,
Once we conclude a SLI both pilot pilot groups will achieve total conciousness - so at least we have that going for us - Right Carl?

:) Scoop

That is what the Dalai Lama told me when I caddied for him. :D

My point is Carl, that you are so quick to condemn anything that DALPA has done as being anti-NWA. Nothing could be further from the truth.

While that is comforting to hear, neither you nor I KNOWS that.

You seem to have no capability for any critical thought outside of what you supposedly hear from your MEC. Somewone posted that the NWA pilots would receive a 30% raise. You poo-pooed that as being completely false. Do you honestly think that WHEN this deal goes thru, (and believe you me, it IS gong to happen) the NWA pilots will be stuck at their current payrates?

It is false. That poster insinuated that DALPA got NWA a pay raise. My pay is exactly same and will remain that way for quite a while. NWA would get a pay raise if we accept the SLI envisioned by DALPA, but the poster omitted that. Wonder why? :confused: In fact, so did you. :confused::confused:

Do you honestly think that you are going to see that kind of pay increase at a stand alone NWA?

No, I do not. Do you honestly think that a DAL without a pacific route structure that is the envy of the world and twice as much of that authority currently unused, would be able to support YOUR pay raise?

NWA brings a phenomenal route structure to help make a phenomenal airline even more phenomenal. Most NWA guys feel DALPA minimizes our impact on the new Delta. That feeling is more acute when we hear Delta guys saying things like: "Why are the NWA guys mad, we offered the same deal as Pan Am and Western and they never complained?" If DALPA sees us the same as Pan Am and Western as do some on this forum, that is definitely part of the problem.

Carl

I see no point in presenting logic to some on this forum. They seem to see demons in the corner of every cockpit.
Good luck to both groups and I hope you find some common ground because as I stated earlier the train is leaving the station and very soon at that.

you're asking him to see the positive, can you see all of the negatives for nwa? the leverage that delta now holds over nwa in regards to the SLI.

Absolutely Eric.. I can also see the negatives for DAL pilots. I will probably be on reserve for awhile longer while NWA pilots pile on top of me. But I can also see the long run benefit for the combined airline. I am not so sure that Carl can see that. I dunno, sometimes his posts reflect that he can.. other times he cannot. People in this industry have for so long been wrapped around the axle about DOH, and what it means, but what I think we will see at the new airline is one that will provide massive benefits to all the pilots. I don't care if a NWA pilot hired after me were to be on top of me, SO LONG AS I don't lose any of the current potential for advancement that I now have. I really believe that a relative seniority SLI would provide that. You may not, and Carl may not, but I do. I know that I cannot change your minds, I am just trying to interject a little logic into the debate. I am actually excited about this deal, and I think that the new DAL will be a great airline. For once, labor and management are working for the samw thing. Now how can that be bad?

While that is comforting to hear, neither you nor I KNOWS that.


It is false. That poster insinuated that DALPA got NWA a pay raise. My pay is exactly same and will remain that way for quite a while. NWA would get a pay raise if we accept the SLI envisioned by DALPA, but the poster omitted that. Wonder why? :confused: In fact, so did you. :confused::confused:

Carl, I'll try this once more. and then I am done. You will get a payraise whether we go with the DALPA SLI or the bureaucrat's version of the same. I prefer the DALPA version if for nothing other than the fact that it will be OUR decision (and by that I mean the NWA and DAL pilots', should your MEC choose to grasp the concept) But I digress... your payrates are going to go up. If you cannot see THAT, there is no hope of you seeing any of the other benefits that will come your way.



No, I do not. Do you honestly think that a DAL without a pacific route structure that is the envy of the world and twice as much of that authority currently unused, would be able to support YOUR pay raise?

I never said that. But it is an irrelevent argument. We ARE going to merge. So why is it a better strategy to fight management, and get whatever scraps they would want to hand out after the fact, or work with them in advance and get something now..?

NWA brings a phenomenal route structure to help make a phenomenal airline even more phenomenal. Most NWA guys feel DALPA minimizes our impact on the new Delta.

That's too bad, because most of us do not feel that way. You bring a complimentary route structure that as you say will make us even stronger. OUR fear are tha aging 9s (Sorry 9drivers.. no offense intended)

That feeling is more acute when we hear Delta guys saying things like: "Why are the NWA guys mad, we offered the same deal as Pan Am and Western and they never complained?" If DALPA sees us the same as Pan Am and Western as do some on this forum, that is definitely part of the problem.


I flew with a lot of WAL guys when I was in SLC (years ago) Most were happy, and there were some that "got screwed" THere will always be some that feel that way, and nothing will change that. I hope you won't be one of those. I know I won't even if your MEC wins and gets arbitration even though I think that is a losing strategy for all concerned. But what do I know?

Absolutely Eric.. I can also see the negatives for DAL pilots. I will probably be on reserve for awhile longer while NWA pilots pile on top of me. But I can also see the long run benefit for the combined airline. I am not so sure that Carl can see that. I dunno, sometimes his posts reflect that he can.. other times he cannot. People in this industry have for so long been wrapped around the axle about DOH, and what it means, but what I think we will see at the new airline is one that will provide massive benefits to all the pilots. I don't care if a NWA pilot hired after me were to be on top of me, SO LONG AS I don't lose any of the current potential for advancement that I now have. I really believe that a relative seniority SLI would provide that. You may not, and Carl may not, but I do. I know that I cannot change your minds, I am just trying to interject a little logic into the debate. I am actually excited about this deal, and I think that the new DAL will be a great airline. For once, labor and management are working for the samw thing. Now how can that be bad?

tsquare,

I actually agree with most every bit of your post. As I've said earlier, I personally am not at all wed to DOH. Our MEC has stated our last position was also a ratio, but one that didn't go as "far" as the DALPA proposed ratio. The key point I took from that letter was that DOH has been abandoned.

I feel exactly the same as you with regard to not losing what I have. I don't want anything that means a Delta pilot must lose something in order for me to get it. If there are other NWA guys that do, I have no sympathy for them at all.

The new airline will be a powerhouse - no question. For the NWA guys, it all depends on how the DALPA Chairman presses the leverage that he gained. The more I read about him, the more I see him as a different kind of thinker and a very good strategic planner. If his intentions really are what some on this forum says they are, he will probably try to privately soothe the bruised egos over on the NWALPA side of the table and use the leverage to push them back to the table. Issuing a press release inviting all sides back to the table will go a very long way in proving his intentions. If he is as smart as I think he is, that press release should come soon.

But what do I know, I could never even kill that gopher! :D

Carl

tsquare,

I actually agree with most every bit of your post. As I've said earlier, I personally am not at all wed to DOH. Our MEC has stated our last position was also a ratio, but one that didn't go as "far" as the DALPA proposed ratio. The key point I took from that letter was that DOH has been abandoned.

I feel exactly the same as you with regard to not losing what I have. I don't want anything that means a Delta pilot must lose something in order for me to get it. If there are other NWA guys that do, I have no sympathy for them at all.

The new airline will be a powerhouse - no question. For the NWA guys, it all depends on how the DALPA Chairman presses the leverage that he gained. The more I read about him, the more I see him as a different kind of thinker and a very good strategic planner. If his intentions really are what some on this forum says they are, he will probably try to privately soothe the bruised egos over on the NWALPA side of the table and use the leverage to push them back to the table. Issuing a press release inviting all sides back to the table will go a very long way in proving his intentions. If he is as smart as I think he is, that press release should come soon.

But what do I know, I could never even kill that gopher! :D

Carl

Thanks Carl. I really don't think we are all that different. And FWIW, I have never really been a DALPA fan, until Lee Moak took office. Even when he did, I was very skeptical. But as you said he seems to be aa pretty good strategic thinker. I have really come to respect his administration, and look forward to seeing what he can do going forward.

Now about that gopher thing.....

tsquare,


Issuing a press release inviting all sides back to the table will go a very long way in proving his intentions.




It's included in the LOA 19 resolution, Carl:

From the Delta MEC resolution AI 08-S09A passed on April 12, 2008:

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED the Delta MEC welcomes the Northwest pilots as partners in the building of the new merged airline and looks forward to working with the Northwest MEC to bring about the rapid completion of a new joint agreement to take effect on the closing of the corporate transaction providing immediate parity in rates of pay and further providing for a rapid completion of a fair and equitable integrated seniority list to take effect on the effective date of the new joint agreement....

Does that make you feel better? Or do you prefer your MEC's technique of negotiating on youtube?

Personally, I'd prefer they do it in person.

Slow,

Let's put it this way, when I saw our MEC posturing on youtube it was..shall we say, not my proudest moment.

I've seen this resolution that was part of the LOA before, and it's very nice language but not at all convincing. Kind of like the Republicans saying how much they are looking forward to working with the new speaker Nancy Pelosi as they reach across the aisle to find common ground. I'm talking about a press release where DALPA lays down a marker and sets an invitation date to restart negotiations. As I've stated earlier, I think your MEC chairman is a pretty bright guy and must know what a PR disaster this could turn into when DAL management testifies before Congress to say how good this merger will be for all parties involved. The right thing to do is to issue a press release, and my bet is your MEC will do just that. Wishful thinking, maybe.

Carl

I don't want anything that means a Delta pilot must lose something in order for me to get it. If there are other NWA guys that do, I have no sympathy for them at all.

That's a good sentiment, but how does it reconcile with this?

A cynical person might believe it was done because the last thing DALPA wants is a combined contract until after the NWA fleet reductions and furloughs.

You don't come out and say it, but what's the alternative? I think it's combining and then having the junior Delta pilots take it in the shorts next to the junior NWA pilots for the DC-9 retirements. (Before you jump in with "You guys were planning to park airplanes too," let me mention that it creates 32 more seats every time a 777 is delivered, and we were and are still planning to resume hiring after the summer rush, due to that fact alone.)

The amazing thing is that, had NWA's negotiating committee been able to find common ground on the SLI and gotten the original deal done, there would probably have been enough relative movement due to Delta's staffing formula (2 captains for flights >12 hours) and work rules (equating to more newhires at the bottom) to compensate for the short-term slowdown in retirements, as well as no worries about furloughs from either side due to aircraft retirements. Couple that with a better compensation package and furlough protection language for all, and it gets real clear just what NWA's negotiators left on the table in an attempt at their own personal seniority grab. (Not for all ya'll, mind you, as we say down here, but for the minority in control of the MEC at NWA.)

I don't blame you for being suspicious or angry, but think about who deserves it really.

Strip,

My two statements are entirely consistent. I meant every word of them, so I won't repeat them here.

What is wrong in my view is to assume that DAL will not reduce capacity. You're simply making it up when you say new 777's are going to offset your own narrow body reductions. If that's what you want to think that's fine, I won't try to convince you. DAL's statements are that hiring stops in May. DAL has issued no such statement that hiring will commence after the summer rush - that's just your opinion. DAL has issued statements that capacity must be reduced and jobs must go. Your statements to the contrary are just your opinions. And as far as your opinions on what REALLY happened during SLI negotiations and the REAL motives behind them, well...do I really have to say it?

The way LOA 19 is now structured, ALL capacity reductions and associated furloughs MUST come from NWA pilots only, once the merger is closed. Again DC-9's parked or MD-88's parked, only NWA pilots get furloughed. Whatever you have to do to convince yourself that is a deal done with integrity and looking out for your soon to be brothers, then do it. But don't expect an NWA pilot to actually believe it.

There is still time to amend the LOA, to wit: No furlough clause applies to both pilot groups equally, and any pay received after merger closing goes into escrow for distribution to all Delta pilots upon combined contract and SLI.

Carl

There is still time to amend the LOA, to wit: No furlough clause applies to both pilot groups equally, and any pay received after merger closing goes into escrow for distribution to all Delta pilots upon combined contract and SLI.

Carl

I'm confused as to exactly why your MEC could not/would not negotiate that wording for you on your behalf.

Now you expect DAL guys to do your negotiating and set money aside for you...while your negotiators are trying as hard as ever to screw over the DAL guys on SLI (and posturing to be combative and disruptive). You can't have it all.

Is it even be legal for DAL's MEC to amend your contract?

I've said it before...your beef should be with your MEC...not ours...and you probably shouldn't expect the folks you are trying to bend over to be terribly enthusiastic about putting their money in a piggy bank for you.

I'm confused as to exactly why your MEC could not/would not negotiate that wording for you on your behalf.

Both sides have stated that all items on the combined contract were settled, and that the stumbling block was the SLI. Are you saying that NWALPA signed off on a combined agreement that allowed for furloughs only on the NWA side? Do you have any proof of that? Since I assume you don't, then how could NWALPA negotiate an ALL pilot no furlough clause in an LOA to which we were not part of nor even knew of its contemplation?

Now you expect DAL guys to do your negotiating, while your NWA negotiators are trying as hard as ever to screw over the DAL guys on SLI-- and posturing to be combative and disruptive. How does that work?

You've already negotiated for us. Your scope changes allow NWA wide bodies to continue to fly after the merger closes. Without the scope changes, NWA wide bodies would have to be parked when the merger is closed. The fact that you think NWA has tried as hard as ever to SCREW OVER Delta pilots just means you've seen the two SLI proposals that most of the rest of us have not seen. Wonder how guys like you keep getting that info?

Is it even be legal for DAL's MEC to amend your contract?

Not asking for that. Just asking to amend the LOA that DALPA signed that affects NWA on pay, scope, and furlough.

Carl

Strip,

My two statements are entirely consistent. I meant every word of them, so I won't repeat them here.

What is wrong in my view is to assume that DAL will not reduce capacity. You're simply making it up when you say new 777's are going to offset your own narrow body reductions. If that's what you want to think that's fine, I won't try to convince you. DAL's statements are that hiring stops in May. DAL has issued no such statement that hiring will commence after the summer rush - that's just your opinion. DAL has issued statements that capacity must be reduced and jobs must go. Your statements to the contrary are just your opinions. And as far as your opinions on what REALLY happened during SLI negotiations and the REAL motives behind them, well...do I really have to say it?

The way LOA 19 is now structured, ALL capacity reductions and associated furloughs MUST come from NWA pilots only, once the merger is closed. Again DC-9's parked or MD-88's parked, only NWA pilots get furloughed. Whatever you have to do to convince yourself that is a deal done with integrity and looking out for your soon to be brothers, then do it. But don't expect an NWA pilot to actually believe it.

There is still time to amend the LOA, to wit: No furlough clause applies to both pilot groups equally, and any pay received after merger closing goes into escrow for distribution to all Delta pilots upon combined contract and SLI.

Carl

Carl,
Thats not whats happening. I was at a roadshow explaining LOA 19 yesterday and there are provisions to prevent a whipsaw situation. Give our guys a little credit. For example if the joint contract and SLI were to drag out this is how aircraft orders will be handled:
Pre merger orders go to the company who ordered them. 787's for example will go to NW.
777's will go to DAL.
If there are orders for any equipment not on the property it will be split at the following ratio:
DAL-6/NW-4. If we were really trying to not include the NW guys why would we put the following into LOA 19.
Do you really think it would help the combined pilot group long term if one side was getting furloughed while the other had no-furlough protection? The plan is for a joint contract first (which shouldn't take long) and then an SLI which may now go to expedited arbitration. And finally if our plans were to drag this out now that we have our contract why would we agree to do the joint contract first and now agree to fast track arbitration? Because we want to be a single pilot group as soon as possible.
Look, anyone can run paranoid what if scenarios all day long but,it doesn't do anybody any good. Are the above actions consistent with the "screw the NW guys" theories that have been floating around? Did the two MEC chariman not put out a joint release yesterday. Time will shed light on all of the above issues.
Scoop

Does that make you feel better? Or do you prefer your MEC's technique of negotiating on youtube?

Personally, I'd prefer they do it in person.

Ummm, I am not sure how to respond, so I will bite my tounge...

That posting on Youtube was from a Press Conf. with MSP media explaining to them why our MEC is opposed to the Merger. I actually think it was great that it was posted on Youtube, that way I can actually see what was said...You know that way SOME PEOPLE, cant tell me what was supposedly said (even though they were not there)!

This, again, was from a PRESS CONF...not a bunch of kids of youtube!

The plan is for a joint contract first (which shouldn't take long)

You are assuming that Mgmt and the pilots can agree to a new contract. If there is not a sweet deal offered, why should the NWA pilots be in a hurry to sign anything. Especially if there is not equity offered to the NWA pilots, not just more equity for all pilots, but atleast 3.5% specifically for the NWA pilots. There is not as much leverage now to get mgmt to give us alot more than you received IMHO.

With today's noncash write down, do we still want equity? Maybe higher pay rates would be better? My "guy" doesn't let me invest in airline stocks.....sold my NWA claim an haven't looked back.

You are assuming that Mgmt and the pilots can agree to a new contract. If there is not a sweet deal offered, why should the NWA pilots be in a hurry to sign anything. Especially if there is not equity offered to the NWA pilots, not just more equity for all pilots, but atleast 3.5% specifically for the NWA pilots. There is not as much leverage now to get mgmt to give us alot more than you received IMHO.

AV8ER,
Management wants the pilot on board - I assume the NW side of the deal will look a lot like the DAL side. NWA pilots should not be in a hurry - neither pilot group should, but it was briefed that both companies stand alone plans are basically "survival" plans while as a combined company we will all do much better.
Scoop

Carl,
Thats not whats happening. I was at a roadshow explaining LOA 19 yesterday and there are provisions to prevent a whipsaw situation. Give our guys a little credit. For example if the joint contract and SLI were to drag out this is how aircraft orders will be handled:
Pre merger orders go to the company who ordered them. 787's for example will go to NW.
777's will go to DAL.
If there are orders for any equipment not on the property it will be split at the following ratio:
DAL-6/NW-4. If we were really trying to not include the NW guys why would we put the following into LOA 19.
Do you really think it would help the combined pilot group long term if one side was getting furloughed while the other had no-furlough protection? The plan is for a joint contract first (which shouldn't take long) and then an SLI which may now go to expedited arbitration. And finally if our plans were to drag this out now that we have our contract why would we agree to do the joint contract first and now agree to fast track arbitration? Because we want to be a single pilot group as soon as possible.
Look, anyone can run paranoid what if scenarios all day long but,it doesn't do anybody any good. Are the above actions consistent with the "screw the NW guys" theories that have been floating around? Did the two MEC chariman not put out a joint release yesterday. Time will shed light on all of the above issues.
Scoop

The ratio formula for new aircraft is great, but that's not really my concern. My concern is what if these new aircraft can no longer be afforded by any of us? What if things don't grow, but shrink instead? If we shrink, here's what happens: After the merger closes ALL furloughs MUST be of NWA pilots ONLY. Anything else is a violation of the DAL pilots only no furlough clause. That's not being paranoid, that is fact. You are correct that I am a student of "what if" scenarios. I think you'd be foolish not to consider that growth may not happen, and that we might see the airline shrink. Hardly a far fetched "what if." So now you call me paranoid for noticing that LOA 19 excludes DAL pilots from being furloughed. Is it that you're irritated that we noticed, or are you irritated that we don't think it is how you treat your soon to be brothers?

Carl

The ratio formula for new aircraft is great, but that's not really my concern. My concern is what if these new aircraft can no longer be afforded by any of us? What if things don't grow, but shrink instead? If we shrink, here's what happens: After the merger closes ALL furloughs MUST be of NWA pilots ONLY. Anything else is a violation of the DAL pilots only no furlough clause. That's not being paranoid, that is fact. You are correct that I am a student of "what if" scenarios. I think you'd be foolish not to consider that growth may not happen, and that we might see the airline shrink. Hardly a far fetched "what if." So now you call me paranoid for noticing that LOA 19 excludes DAL pilots from being furloughed. Is it that you're irritated that we noticed, or are you irritated that we don't think it is how you treat your soon to be brothers?

Carl

Carl,
After the merger closes we will all be under a single contract. Since we will not want to give up furlough protection the pervious NW guys who will henceforth from the time of closing be Delta guys will also be covered. There will be no more NW guys, we will all be one big dysfuntional happy family.:p
I asked the same question - What if we park aircraft? The answer I got at the roadshow was that if we park aircraft as a combined company we would have been decimated individually as stand alone. Merging does not guarantee us sucess but it will make it more likely. I am sure NW will have road shows in the future. Call me a sucker but I was strongly against this merger but after listening to 4 MEC reps and an Economist I think it is our collective best interests.
Scoop

The LOA says Delta guys get a two-year sanctuary from merger-related furlough. RA just needs to say he's furloughing for other economic reasons, and he's off the hook.

At least, that's my understanding. I'm still trying to get the hang of not calling everybody "sir."

Carl,
After the merger closes we will all be under a single contract. Since we will not want to give up furlough protection the pervious NW guys who will henceforth from the time of closing be Delta guys will also be covered. There will be no more NW guys, we will all be one big dysfuntional happy family.:p
I asked the same question - What if we park aircraft? The answer I got at the roadshow was that if we park aircraft as a combined company we would have been decimated individually as stand alone. Merging does not guarantee us sucess but it will make it more likely. I am sure NW will have road shows in the future. Call me a sucker but I was strongly against this merger but after listening to 4 MEC reps and an Economist I think it is our collective best interests.
Scoop

If we're all going to be under a single contract when the merger closes, then you know something I don't. If you're right that would be great. No more one-sided stuff.

I think we're better off together as well. We've just got to actually get our MEC's back to the table.

Carl

how do you delete a message ?????

If we shrink, here's what happens: After the merger closes ALL furloughs MUST be of NWA pilots ONLY. Anything else is a violation of the DAL pilots only no furlough clause. That's not being paranoid, that is fact.
First - I appreciate a senior guy like you being worried about furloughs for the junior folks. Too often I see senior guys who don't care about the guys at the bottom of the list.

But here's a question - you are worried about the no-furlough clause that is in LOA 19. Why are you complaining to the Delta people - why not call up your LEC and MEC and complain to them that NWA doesn't have a LOA with furlough protection? Why not call them up and tell them you'd like a LOA with pay raises?

Although I know you're smart - here's an analogy (although my wife says my analogies suck), here's a stab at it:

I'm meeting the crew for dinner on a overnight at 6pm. If the FO doesn't show at 6pm, I wait a little bit then eventually I figure he's not interested and go eat by myself. I don't sit there hungry for hours complaining that the FO screwed me by not showing up - I eventually do my own thing. Why should the Delta group wait for the NWA group when it appears all the NWA guys want to do is posture and delay?

Your wife is a wise woman...she's right.
PS...Aren't you a FO?

Your wife is a wise woman...she's right.
PS...Aren't you a FO?Hehehe... I'm a FO, sure but I was trying to put myself in Carl's shoes.

But here's a question - you are worried about the no-furlough clause that is in LOA 19. Why are you complaining to the Delta people - why not call up your LEC and MEC and complain to them that NWA doesn't have a LOA with furlough protection? Why not call them up and tell them you'd like a LOA with pay raises?

NWALPA has no leverage whatsoever to negotiate anything. Our management won't even be there in 6 months. DALPA had leverage. DAL needed a scope change in order to not have to park NWA wide bodies. DALPA used that leverage that affects NWA to obtain a no furlough clause for Delta pilots only.

I'm meeting the crew for dinner on a overnight at 6pm. If the FO doesn't show at 6pm, I wait a little bit then eventually I figure he's not interested and go eat by myself. I don't sit there hungry for hours complaining that the FO screwed me by not showing up - I eventually do my own thing. Why should the Delta group wait for the NWA group when it appears all the NWA guys want to do is posture and delay?

NWALPA were there every step of the way. Nobody says that NWALPA didn't show up. Everyone agrees that all parties were at the table and were able to approve every item in a new joint contract, but they were unable to agree on an SLI. That's what ended the negotiation.

The DALPA Chairman talks about the high integrity level of his team. He also states: "Make no mistake about it, when the merger closes NWA pilots will be Delta pilots." Some folks here say, oh no...he just meant you'll be Delta pilots in spirit. If the integrity is really high, it would be easy to amend the LOA to share the pain of furloughs (with whoever the generic partner is for Delta). That didn't happen. Now DAL guys here want to say it's because NWA pilots are poor negotiators, or idiots, or lazy, or greedy, or..... I can only hope that the DALPA Chairman is more of a statesman than most DAL guys on this forum.

I don't understand your analogy, but it did make me hungry.

Carl

NWALPA has no leverage whatsoever to negotiate anything. Our management won't even be there in 6 months. DALPA had leverage. DAL needed a scope change in order to not have to park NWA wide bodies. DALPA used that leverage that affects NWA to obtain a no furlough clause for Delta pilots only.NWALPA had leverage - just not enough leverage to get everything they wanted. I doubt the DALPA got everything they wanted too - but I imagine they comprimised. For example, DALPA might of been able to get higher pay raise for senior guys, but maybe the no-furlough clause had to go. I don't know, but I think there is only so much "negoitating capital" that can be used in this deal.
In my opinion, and from I can read from between the lines, it seems that DALPA did the best they could do and got the agreement that was LOA 19. Now the Delta pilost get to vote on LOA 19 and give it the thumbs up or down.

If the situtation was reversed and NWALPA had gotten an agreement but not DALPA, I'd be badgering my MEC to get an agreement, even if it's not what everyone wants. I think an agreement is better than arbitration. I don't want to go to work for 30 more years and sit next to a guy who's bitter at me. I have some NWA friends and the red book/green book stuff is nuts over there.


NWALPA were there every step of the way. Nobody says that NWALPA didn't show up. Everyone agrees that all parties were at the table and were able to approve every item in a new joint contract, but they were unable to agree on an SLI. That's what ended the negotiation.Yes and what's frustrating is that both sides don't have real proof of what the last positions were.

The DALPA Chairman talks about the high integrity level of his team. He also states: "Make no mistake about it, when the merger closes NWA pilots will be Delta pilots." Some folks here say, oh no...he just meant you'll be Delta pilots in spirit. If the integrity is really high, it would be easy to amend the LOA to share the pain of furloughs (with whoever the generic partner is for Delta). That didn't happen. Now DAL guys here want to say it's because NWA pilots are poor negotiators, or idiots, or lazy, or greedy, or..... I can only hope that the DALPA Chairman is more of a statesman than most DAL guys on this forum.NWALPA can get whatever agreement they want until we agree on a joint contract. Tell your MEC to talk to management rather than giving press conferences. I think the NWALPA MEC wants it all - and these days we can't just have it all - not with the price of gas where it is. It's a bum deal, sure, I'd like to make more money but it's just not in the cards.

I don't understand your analogy, but it did make me hungry.Alright, maybe the analogy was bad, but I was just trying to show that sometimes waiting for the others just takes too long and you have to go it alone.

If the integrity is really high, it would be easy to amend the LOA to share the pain of furloughs (with whoever the generic partner is for Delta). That didn't happen. Now DAL guys here want to say it's because NWA pilots are poor negotiators, or idiots, or lazy, or greedy, or..... I can only hope that the DALPA Chairman is more of a statesman than most DAL guys on this forum.

I don't understand your analogy, but it did make me hungry.

Carl

Carl,
You are writing in the past tense - this story is still being played out.

I think there are a few members from both pilot groups on this forum who would not be my first choice for a job at the State Department.
Scoop

The DALPA Chairman talks about the high integrity level of his team. He also states: "Make no mistake about it, when the merger closes NWA pilots will be Delta pilots." Some folks here say, oh no...he just meant you'll be Delta pilots in spirit. If the integrity is really high, it would be easy to amend the LOA to share the pain of furloughs (with whoever the generic partner is for Delta). That didn't happen. Now DAL guys here want to say it's because NWA pilots are poor negotiators, or idiots, or lazy, or greedy, or..... I can only hope that the DALPA Chairman is more of a statesman than most DAL guys on this forum.

I don't understand your analogy, but it did make me hungry.

Carl

Carl, you have been all over every thread in the merger forum. We understand your position very well. A deaf, dumb and blind man could understand it. Don`t be a whiner, suck it up man. The Delta merger boys are gonna get what they can, same as your boys. I wouldn`t expect less from any of them. The Red and Green boys think they got screwed, so did the Norhteast, Western and Pan Am boys.

Carl, you have been all over every thread in the merger forum. We understand your position very well. A deaf, dumb and blind man could understand it. Don`t be a whiner, suck it up man. The Delta merger boys are gonna get what they can, same as your boys. I wouldn`t expect less from any of them. The Red and Green boys think they got screwed, so did the Norhteast, Western and Pan Am boys.

Wow...what a well thought out persuasive post. ;)

Carl