Airline Pilot Forums

In my haste to make a positive post, I guess I offended some people for that I am sorry, I just want all groups to be treated as equals.

As an NWA newbie and more so a MSP native, I am fully aware of the difficult times this pilot group has gone through. However, I believe that now more then ever it is important to be a unified group of NWA pilots. As I was changing in the bag room in DTW, I saw all the writing on the wall; literaly. Peeing and moaning about Red book or Green book will do nothing other then split up our group even more. As we already know our Alpa "brothers" at Delta shown that they are willing to allow new DAL management to divide and conquer. What ever happend to power in numbers? If either pilot group wants to get what we deserve, we must stay as a group. The "union" isn't going to help us on this one. So, I ask my peers at NWA to let go of the past and start acting like the professionals that we are and unite. I ask my Delta "brothers" to quit being so foolish and not let management divide and conquer. In the long run it is not worth it. We as DAL and NWA need to unite and flex our muscles as a pilot group and not sell the other out. Think of this Dick Anderson to DAL pilots--"Why should you guys get growth and more routes when the NWA pilots will do it for less?" If we don't unite this will happen. I don't have the magic key to SLI, I do know that we have more power together then apart. I just want the best life for everyone involved. INAV8or

as an MSP native and junior DAL guy...hopefully we can come together to close this deal fairly (and lucratively) for all of us...so I can get back up to the great white north! (and so an NWA guy can get further south if he so desires). QOL is king...let's make it work for all of us. :)

Interesting. Your post was apparently too mean.

Mine wasn't mean. Why'd it get deleted?

I need something explained please.
DAL and NWA could not agree on a unified or joint contract and DAL cut a deal with management on there own.
NWA feels this is selling out but can't they do the same and cut there own deal? They are currently under seperate contracts.
Or did someone loose position at the bargining table?

That is the whole point of the post. Finally APLA, well 2 large MEC's, have a chance to set the bar if they work together. Now that DALPA has paved their own path vs having the airline in the hands of the worker. This is what I am most afraid of DALPA doing whats best for themselves vs the whole pilot group.

I need something explained please.
DAL and NWA could not agree on a unified or joint contract and DAL cut a deal with management on there own.
NWA feels this is selling out but can't they do the same and cut there own deal? They are currently under seperate contracts.
Or did someone loose position at the bargining table?

a joint contract was agreed upon just not the seniority list.

scope needed to be relaxed on deltas side. (to allow nwa's international flying) that was the leverage for LOA19. if nwa was the surviving carrier then they would have held the leverage not delta. this is how it has been explained on here.

I need something explained please.
DAL and NWA could not agree on a unified or joint contract and DAL cut a deal with management on there own.
NWA feels this is selling out but can't they do the same and cut there own deal? They are currently under seperate contracts.
Or did someone loose position at the bargining table?

Management has no reason to talk to us now. They will not be the surviving management team. They are totally focused on merging the airline, and making sure their golden parachute check gets deposited. We have absolutely no bargaining power - we have nothing they want.

Carl

Management has no reason to talk to us now. They will not be the surviving management team. They are totally focused on merging the airline, and making sure their golden parachute check gets deposited. We have absolutely no bargaining power - we have nothing they want.

Carl

True. The way I understand it, we said, "Let's negotiate" and they said, "uhh...no". Unfortunately, we only have one source of negotiating power left, and that's Uncle BOB and Aunt FaMLA. I imagine they will show up soon, and DALPA will have nobody to blame but themselves.

True. The way I understand it, we said, "Let's negotiate" and they said, "uhh...no". Unfortunately, we only have one source of negotiating power left, and that's Uncle BOB and Aunt FaMLA. I imagine they will show up soon, and DALPA will have nobody to blame but themselves.


Please enlighten me as to who those "people" are, and if they are party to an attempt at destroying OUR airline, I will blame YOU.

True. The way I understand it, we said, "Let's negotiate" and they said, "uhh...no". Unfortunately, we only have one source of negotiating power left, and that's Uncle BOB and Aunt FaMLA. I imagine they will show up soon, and DALPA will have nobody to blame but themselves.

Uncle BOB and Aunt FiMLA need to stay away.... With fuel costs increasing daily we all need to do our part! Having a healthy airline in this economy is going to be tough and burning through fuel ($$$$) and canceling flights is not in our best interest.

As for negotiations we need to sitting down with DALPA (which we are next week) and DAL management. We really have nothing to negotiate with our current NWA management.

Ok, I get Aunt Family Medical Leave Act. Who is Uncle BOB, Baby on Board?

There is a lot of leverage held by NWA in the process. Management at Delta has big plans for shifting aircraft around to get the right size aircraft on the right routes and maximize revenue. They also need to get the stock price up both for financing realities and there own personal gain via options. All of these things require a joint contract. I am willing to bet that LOA 19 will never go into effect and we will get a joint contract prior to DCC. The nice thing about LOA 19 is it provides a much higher starting point in the process. The new joint contract will not be near as good as what was on the table and lost however that is the reality of the rapidly changing cost of fuel.

Uncle BOB I think is BLOCK OR BETTER. It was all over the crew changing room.

Please enlighten me as to who those "people" are, and if they are party to an attempt at destroying OUR airline, I will blame YOU.

which pilot group has but the split between the pilot groups right now?

I find it interesting that you use words like "our" airline and yet you would leave half of "your" pilots behind with LOA19.

hopefully sailingfun is right and you get a joint contract and SLI otherwise both pilot groups will be to blame.

which pilot group has but the split between the pilot groups right now?

I find it interesting that you use words like "our" airline and yet you would leave half of "your" pilots behind with LOA19.

hopefully sailingfun is right and you get a joint contract and SLI otherwise both pilot groups will be to blame.

Eric.. you are so clueless it is beyond comprehension...

I suspect Eric has never even read LOA 19 yet he is an expert on it. It provides great protections for both pilot groups and leaves no one behind. I had a NWA friend who called me upset about LOA 19. I forwarded him a copy of it and he called me back an hour later and said "I don't see what the big deal is, this helps us all". He even commented he was very surprised at the scope section and the protections Dalpa put in place for the NWA pilots.

Why not Post LOA 19 so we all can see it. Information is power.

Why not Post LOA 19 so we all can see it. Information is power.

It's pretty long...... Check out the crewroom in DTW there were a a few copies posted there.

I suspect Eric has never even read LOA 19 yet he is an expert on it. It provides great protections for both pilot groups and leaves no one behind. I had a NWA friend who called me upset about LOA 19. I forwarded him a copy of it and he called me back an hour later and said "I don't see what the big deal is, this helps us all". He even commented he was very surprised at the scope section and the protections Dalpa put in place for the NWA pilots.

if it leaves no one behind, are the nwa pilots getting the raises that you are along with equity?

Eric.. you are so clueless it is beyond comprehension...

just look in the mirror for once...

if it leaves no one behind, are the nwa pilots getting the raises that you are along with equity?

It's pretty simple: DALAPA is not authorized to negotiate on NWA pilots' behalf.

Now strap on your crash helmet--the short bus is here to take you to school.:D

I am sure that NWA will get exactly what the DAL guys are getting.

Before it is over I would bet on the junior guys getting sold down the river to benefit the senior ones. It is the way that we do things. Why would it change this time?

It's pretty simple: DALAPA is not authorized to negotiate on NWA pilots' behalf.

Now strap on your crash helmet--the short bus is here to take you to school.

and it's quit simple to see that you left nwa behind and negotiated without them. hence the aunt and uncle senerio...

crash helmet--short bus--funny

Before it is over I would bet on the junior guys getting sold down the river to benefit the senior ones. It is the way that we do things. Why would it change this time?

Amen, acl65. I'm on the NWA side of the fence. For us junior guys (and gals) we are going to be at the bottom of this mess no matter how it turns out. No one will look out for us!

You just gotta live life, be happy, and take it one day at a time. I'm not going to let these geezers (NWA) and double breasted 48 yr old captains (DAL) ruin my life.

Just do something, get it done and let life go on.

Humboldt

I am sure that NWA will get exactly what the DAL guys are getting.

Before it is over I would bet on the junior guys getting sold down the river to benefit the senior ones. It is the way that we do things. Why would it change this time?

I am not responding just because I am a Jr guy that is going to get sold down the river. I am reponding because now is a time to make a change and not sell anyone out. As an ALPA member for 10 plus yrs, I have watched ALPA become more and more divided. Age 65, US Air, etc. As an ALPA member all I witnessed is the Union doing what the Union wants NOT what the members want. In away it is our own fault for electing our reps. However, why should anyone be sold out. Fight for a uniform compensation package. Now is the time to start changing things. Look at non ALPA carriers SWA, AA, UPS, even Skywest, and now USAW. Those groups have unity and power. All their dues go to their own causes. This is all about us vs them, us = Pilots them = mgmt. We the NWA and DAL group can set the bar for future mergers and rates. So, lets not mess it up...

Let's ditch ALPA and start a "new Delta" union with NWA and DAL guys.

If Easties can do it...can't be that hard.

Let's ditch ALPA and start a "new Delta" union with NWA and DAL guys.

How about a new global airline Union....

It is going to be bad for both parties......mergers usually are.

Let's ditch ALPA and start a "new Delta" union with NWA and DAL guys.

Hooray! Someone gets it.

if it leaves no one behind, are the nwa pilots getting the raises that you are along with equity?

Eric,
Either you are unaware that the LOA pay increases do not start until January 1, 2009 or just trying to stir the pot. That gives us about 7 months before anyone can be left behind. ;)
Scoop

What about the fact that LOA19 will be the "basis" for our joint contract. Do guys think we are going to work under two contracts? Same payscale, same work rules, same company....... It would have been nice if we could have completed the SLI along with the previous joint contract, but I beleive in time all of this will be worked out. I think what I see as a 5% pay raise in January will be a very nice pay raise for the NWA guys. Considering the current economic climate, it's better than nothing.

I look forward to flying with the NWA guys.....

Tomcat,
LAX 767B

Amen, acl65. I'm on the NWA side of the fence. For us junior guys (and gals) we are going to be at the bottom of this mess no matter how it turns out. No one will look out for us!

Posts like your's are really irritating to us "senior" guys. How would you define "looking out for you?" Would you define it as - taking the new defined contribution pension money from the top half of the list and distributing it to the bottom half of the list to try to even out the pension plans? Or maybe paying COBRA benefits to our furloughed pilots for 5+ years?

I know you are probably young, but you need to wise up. NWALPA has been a model (as has DALPA) in looking out for their more junior pilots. When you don't see that, and then whine that nobody's looking out for you, it is both ignorant and ungrateful. I'm still glad we're doing it because I think most junior NWA pilots understand what has been done and is continuing to be done.

Carl

Posts like your's are really irritating to us "senior" guys. How would you define "looking out for you?" Would you define it as - taking the new defined contribution pension money from the top half of the list and distributing it to the bottom half of the list to try to even out the pension plans? Or maybe paying COBRA benefits to our furloughed pilots for 5+ years?

I know you are probably young, but you need to wise up. NWALPA has been a model (as has DALPA) in looking out for their more junior pilots. When you don't see that, and then whine that nobody's looking out for you, it is both ignorant and ungrateful. I'm still glad we're doing it because I think most junior NWA pilots understand what has been done and is continuing to be done.

Carl

Thank you Carl, for including DALPA in a complimentary post

and it's quit simple to see that you left nwa behind and negotiated without them. hence the aunt and uncle senerio...

crash helmet--short bus--funny

Eric.. this is the last electron I will waste on you, because I don't believe that you are a pilot, much less one that works for either company. I think your sole purpose is to try to stir the pot a little... but really dude... why don't you find a forum where you have a modicum of a clue as to the subject... Or just go outside and go skateboarding, or whatever you do in your spare time.

Eric.. this is the last electron I will waste on you, because I don't believe that you are a pilot, much less one that works for either company. I think your sole purpose is to try to stir the pot a little... but really dude... why don't you find a forum where you have a modicum of a clue as to the subject... Or just go outside and go skateboarding, or whatever you do in your spare time.

I'm still waiting patiently for Eric to post the prom pics from last week on here.:) Come on Eric, it shouldn't take this long.

:eek:That is the whole point of the post. Finally APLA, well 2 large MEC's, have a chance to set the bar if they work together. Now that DALPA has paved their own path vs having the airline in the hands of the worker. This is what I am most afraid of DALPA doing whats best for themselves vs the whole pilot group.


THis is What DELTA alpa ia capable of and we are supposed to think that we are going to get a fair SLI and Deal.


Gentlemen:

Great Web Site!

I share your frustration.

After reading what you are attempting to do, I thought you might like to hear a little history of the most recent acquisition and seniority list integration.

I am one of the Pan Am pilots who was "acquired" (Delta term) in 1991. I write this email to you as a warning about what can happen in your quest for a combined list. Do not trust Delta. Do not trust ALPA. We call one another brothers at ALPA until it is a choice between you or a mainline Delta pilot...then there is no choice. You will be sold out by ALPA or used by ALPA for the benefit of the Delta mainline pilots. I speak from experience.

In 1991 we (Pan Am) pilots were told by Delta management (Sr VP Flt Opns Captain Harry Alger and Captain Dave Greenberg) that we would be integrated into the seniority list in a "fair and equitable manner". This was Delta's terminology. Alger and Greenberg asked Captain Sheldon, Delta ALPA MEC Chairman to put together a merged seniority list. A committee was formed to investigate the two pilot groups and form a proposed seniority list. At this point I should point out that just one month before this exercise began, when the PanAm acquisition was a done deal, the ALPA executive committee voted to remove language in ALPA's merger policy stating mergers should be accomplished in date of hire! Captain Sheldon was a member of this committee. [N2264J note: The Delta MEC had a member who sat on the Board of Directors and would know months in advance if Delta were planning an acquisition then maneuver to change ALPA merger policy before hand. That happened again at the ALPA BOD in 1998, just a four months before Delta announced the purchased ASA.] The merger committee did it's job and formed a proposed seniority list. The list ratio'd Pan Am pilots into the Delta seniority list which resulted in a loss of seniority of approximately 10 years in the worst case. This seniority list was to be presented to Delta Flight Ops management at the next MEC meeting.

The next MEC meeting was attended by Dave Greenberg and Harry Alger. The proposed seniority list was presented to Alger/Greenberg who did not even look at it. Instead, they threw on the table what they termed the "company list". When the MEC looked at this list Alger/Greenberg presented, they were amazed. The worse case loss of seniority to a Pan Am pilot was over 23 years! Immediately, they recognized Delta wanted this list and would negotiate to get it. When asked what Delta ALPA would get should it accepted this list, Alger/Greenberg responded by offering agency shop agreement and a 2% pay increase. Sheldon and his MEC bought it! It is interesting to note that Delta Flight Ops management stated in prior years that there would never be an agency shop agreement at Delta. Many Western pilots dropped out of ALPA after their merger with Delta because of the seniority list integration. The Delta MEC had to assume the Pan Am pilots would also be upset with the integration. The combination of the two groups and the other non-members represented millions of dollars. The Delta offer solved a major economic and control problem of the Delta MEC. Thus, the Pan Am pilots were sold out for a 2% pay increase and agency shop by our "brothers in ALPA". So much for brotherhood between two ALPA represented major airlines.

The Delta "company list" started integrating the Pan Am pilots into the combined list at approximately the senior man on the 767. Their rational was that we were bringing over aircraft that were similar to the 767 so this is where we should start appearing on the list. If one accepts this rational for integration, then it would also be fair to come up from the bottom to the most junior man on the 727 and integrate all Pan Am airmen into the list between the most senior 767 airman and the most junior 727 airman, since we did not bring any airplane over smaller than a 727 - (Delta had DC-9's). Not so. A ratio was established at 1:11 starting at the 767 senior captain until reaching to co-pilots where it reverted to 1:13 until all airman were inserted into the list. But guess what? Delta ran out of Delta pilots. So what Delta flight operations management did is insert 13 X's into the list after the last Delta pilot then a Pan Am pilot, another 13 X's - a Pan Am pilot until finally all Pan Am pilots were accounted for as follows:
Last Delta Pilot
Pan Am Pilot

I won't go into your whole post but there are a few items that should be cleared up. First ALPA merger policy never stated mergers should be accomplished by DOH. It was one of half a dozen factors that could be used and considered in constructing a list. It was removed as one of those factors in 1991. UAL was the driving force behind that change.
The second point about Pan Am is that Delta bought only a portion of the airline. In the portion they purchased they applied the Delta contract and work rules in deciding how many pilots to bring over. This resulted in almost 200 additional slots for Pan Am. Since they were buying only a portion of Pan Am it resulted in a most of the senior people from Pan Am coming over leaving the junior people at the old Pan Am. Hard to use DOH when you take the top half of the list for the most part. No Pan Am pilot had to come over to Delta. They could have stayed at Pan Am. They knew the method of seniority integration before coming over. Those that came over saw there pay more then double in the next 3 years while every single aircraft that came over with them was removed from the Delta fleet in that time frame.
The other half of Pan Am was sold to American Airlines where they offered employment to exactly zero Pan Am pilots.

Keenster... ASk that PAA pilot about the bloodbath over at PAA prior to the acquisition... Never hear about THAT do ya...? union brotherhood and all.

Carl,

As a Delta pilot I strongly beg to differ on "Dalpa's being a model looking out for the junior pilot".

As a result of Delta's Chapter 11 filing, ALPA was complicit with DAL management in giving up the defined benefit pension plan. Without going into great detail, pilots age 53 and over on the date of plan termination get a he** of a lot more from the PBGC than those under 53.

When ALPA came up with the methodology to distribute both the $2.1 B pre-petition claim, and the $550 M note the junior pilots got royally screwed in comparison to the senior pilots.

The history of ALPA at Delta (at least during my tenure) is one of ALPA protecting the senior pilots and selling out the junior ones.

Wasatch, You should put some numbers to your post. Keep in mind the note money was paid as a condition of the termination of the retirement plan. The money was scheduled to be paid in proportion to the loss each pilot had in the terminated retirment plan. When DALPA ran the numbers giving each pilot his fair share based on what they had in the plan the junior pilot got almost nothing from the note. That made sense since they had little in the retirement plan. Dalpa however decided to try and give them more of the pot and decided to plus every pilot up to a assummed 205,000 FAE regardless of what they really had and then reran the numbers. Still the junior pilots got very little so they added a years of service credit and ran the numbers again. That was the final method they used to distribute the money. The committee that decides how to distribute the money was composed of mostly junior pilots. None were in the top 2000. When all the numbers were run the junior pilots will end up with a higher retirement then the senior pilots based on the new 11% DC plan going forward. If there is any improvement in the DC plan then the junior pilots benefit even more.

Eric,
Either you are unaware that the LOA pay increases do not start until January 1, 2009 or just trying to stir the pot. That gives us about 7 months before anyone can be left behind. ;)
Scoop

scoop I've said that if a joint contract and SLI can be accomplished in the next 7 months then no one will be left behind. If it doesn't get accomplished however, then the nwa pilots will be getting left behind. There are people who are claiming, we need to work together NOW, but you didn't work together in the recent past. To me I think a persons actions speak louder than their words and right now those actions seem to be contrary to what the delta mec was saying back when negotiations first started.

I hope you guys can get it all worked out in the next few months...

The other half of Pan Am was sold to American Airlines where they offered employment to exactly zero Pan Am pilots.

That's incorrect. The majority of what was left of Pan Am was their vast network of Pacific routes. Those routes were purchased by United. Those Pan Am pilots were integrated into the UAL list.

Carl

Posts like your's are really irritating to us "senior" guys. How would you define "looking out for you?" Would you define it as - taking the new defined contribution pension money from the top half of the list and distributing it to the bottom half of the list to try to even out the pension plans? Or maybe paying COBRA benefits to our furloughed pilots for 5+ years?

I know you are probably young, but you need to wise up. NWALPA has been a model (as has DALPA) in looking out for their more junior pilots. When you don't see that, and then whine that nobody's looking out for you, it is both ignorant and ungrateful. I'm still glad we're doing it because I think most junior NWA pilots understand what has been done and is continuing to be done.

Carl

if you were looking out for the junior pilots how do you explain that both nwa and delta have given up scope and probably caused those junior pilots to be on the street longer. I have to say that it is quit ignorant not to see how 50 and 70 seaters have drastically hurt all the current junior and future pilots to come.

paying medical benefits was a good thing but my regional payed those as well and we were making quit a bit less then the majors.

Carl,

As a Delta pilot I strongly beg to differ on "Dalpa's being a model looking out for the junior pilot".

As a result of Delta's Chapter 11 filing, ALPA was complicit with DAL management in giving up the defined benefit pension plan. Without going into great detail, pilots age 53 and over on the date of plan termination get a he** of a lot more from the PBGC than those under 53.

When ALPA came up with the methodology to distribute both the $2.1 B pre-petition claim, and the $550 M note the junior pilots got royally screwed in comparison to the senior pilots.

The history of ALPA at Delta (at least during my tenure) is one of ALPA protecting the senior pilots and selling out the junior ones.

Wasatch,

Here's the difference between you and me. When I was junior (and I was 25 years ago) I knew my pension had very little in it. I knew I wasn't even vested for 5 years. I knew there would be huge penalties until I reached 25 years. I didn't feel screwed by it, I knew it going in. I also knew that if it went away, I had more time to recover than some old fart (now I am one). You newer pilots seem to think that there should be pension equity and years of service shouldn't matter at all. You're wrong. Everyone from Congress to the PBGC says you're wrong also. Is this what our "entitlement generation" has come to?

I fully stand by my statement of DALPA. They've not been perfect, but no union is. I've seen first hand their committment over the years to zealously look out for everyone on their list. You need to rethink the concept of DALPA screwing you over an under funded pension that was subsequently terminated.

Carl

if you were looking out for the junior pilots how do you explain that both nwa and delta have given up scope and probably caused those junior pilots to be on the street longer. I have to say that it is quit ignorant not to see how 50 and 70 seaters have drastically hurt all the current junior and future pilots to come.

paying medical benefits was a good thing but my regional payed those as well and we were making quit a bit less then the majors.

OK...listen very carefully Eric. Here's the explanation. Giving up scope was voted on by the membership. That vote was overwhelming. The vast majority of junior pilots voted for this scope "relaxation." Why? A no furlough clause.

Since AMR began this concept with AmericanEagle, all other major carriers have been under pressure by their managements. The concern was that our management would just sub-lease the 50 seat flying to Eagle. The vast majority of our membership (and of other majors) decided that the better part of valor was to keep the flying within the broad corporate parent, and push for no furlough clauses and limits on 50 seat flying.

Again, this was not senior people throwing junior people away - it was junior people and senior people VOTING for it.

Carl

PS: When you call someone ignorant, you should take care on how you spell the word previous to it.

Eric.. this is the last electron I will waste on you, because I don't believe that you are a pilot, much less one that works for either company. I think your sole purpose is to try to stir the pot a little... but really dude... why don't you find a forum where you have a modicum of a clue as to the subject... Or just go outside and go skateboarding, or whatever you do in your spare time.

I've heard that one before...:rolleyes:

sailingfun,
I beg to differ. You state: "The money was scheduled to be paid in proportion to the loss each pilot had in the terminated retirement plan."

If that were the case, and the distribution methodology were equitable, there should have been a reduction in the calculation for a PC-3 pilot (over age 53) so that a 52 year old and 53 year old pilot should be approximately equal, in dollar terms, when they retire and you add their pension payments and their claim allocation adjusted for a reasonable growth rate until they retire.

ALPA did no such thing. The PC-3 pilot will receive roughly 80% of his qualified benefit. The 52 year old will get the PBGC guarantee which is a probably over a thousand bucks a month less. And this is fair?

Carl,

Let's take quick look at scope and DALPA's "great" job at holding the line. Scope, as it applies to RJ's, affects the junior pilot more than the senior one.

DALPA (through the Wilson Center) as well as through lounge visits, road shows, and questionaires was told LOUD AND CLEAR that the pilot group did not want any changes to the scope clause, and did not want anyone but Delta Pilots flying any aircraft larger than 70 seats.

Lee Moak and company capitulated, allowing the 76 seat RJ to be operated by regional carriers. Please explain how this is "looking out for the junior pilot"

OK...listen very carefully Eric. Here's the explanation. Giving up scope was voted on by the membership. That vote was overwhelming. The vast majority of junior pilots voted for this scope "relaxation." Why? A no furlough clause.

Since AMR began this concept with AmericanEagle, all other major carriers have been under pressure by their managements. The concern was that our management would just sub-lease the 50 seat flying to Eagle. The vast majority of our membership (and of other majors) decided that the better part of valor was to keep the flying within the broad corporate parent, and push for no furlough clauses and limits on 50 seat flying.

Again, this was not senior people throwing junior people away - it was junior people and senior people VOTING for it.

Carl

PS: When you call someone ignorant, you should take care on how you spell the word previous to it.

do you guys even have limits on the 50 seaters? why loosen the scope beyond the 36 avro's? did the majors not learn from the 50 seaters? the ones that got hurt the worst were the most junior pilots which include the regionals and everyone to come.

as with my spelling...oops. If I thought i was a great speller then I would be ignorant about that fact but I'm aware of it. we both know that's not what we were talking about.

That's incorrect. The majority of what was left of Pan Am was their vast network of Pacific routes. Those routes were purchased by United. Those Pan Am pilots were integrated into the UAL list.

Carl

Carl, The Pacific operation was sold to UAL well before Delta bought the Atlantic operation. At the time of the Delta purchase their operation was split about half and half between the Atlanta and South/Central America. New York being the Atlantic hub and Miami being the other hub. American purchased that portion of Pan Am and it formed the basis for the now huge Miami Hub and South American operation. When the purchased that half they took no Pan Am pilots or Airman. That portion of Pan Am was in Chapter 11 at the time however.

Sailingfun wins the prize,he has posted the correct sequence of PA's demise.

Ok fellas lets take the next exit off memory lane and turn on the the future expressway. The past is the past, maybe ALPA should look at all the mistakes they have made in the past and learn from them. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome defines insanity. These groups have a chance to change the ALPA family tree. I am fully aware that I am a Jr. guy and when the lists are merged I expect to be a Jr. guy with the same bright future as I have at NWA. I am also aware of the belief of some of the DAL guys that they are doing us some big favor and allowing us to join thier group of elite pilots. Well, DAL guys, I don't think it is like that, I think that the new Delta pilot group has a chance to be the group that everyone says, "thank god they got their act together and put their egos aside and signed a record deal..." As a former Comair guy that went on strike for 89 days to set the regional pay bar, only to see other pilot groups fold like a house of cards. That strike wasn't worth it b/c it didn't change anything. We have a chance to make this job a profession again. We NWA need to forget about red, green and blue and see the future. DAL guys, some of you need to get on board and learn that there is power in numbers.

sailingfun,
I beg to differ. You state: "The money was scheduled to be paid in proportion to the loss each pilot had in the terminated retirement plan."

If that were the case, and the distribution methodology were equitable, there should have been a reduction in the calculation for a PC-3 pilot (over age 53) so that a 52 year old and 53 year old pilot should be approximately equal, in dollar terms, when they retire and you add their pension payments and their claim allocation adjusted for a reasonable growth rate until they retire.

ALPA did no such thing. The PC-3 pilot will receive roughly 80% of his qualified benefit. The 52 year old will get the PBGC guarantee which is a probably over a thousand bucks a month less. And this is fair?

Carl,

Let's take quick look at scope and DALPA's "great" job at holding the line. Scope, as it applies to RJ's, affects the junior pilot more than the senior one.

DALPA (through the Wilson Center) as well as through lounge visits, road shows, and questionaires was told LOUD AND CLEAR that the pilot group did not want any changes to the scope clause, and did not want anyone but Delta Pilots flying any aircraft larger than 70 seats.

Lee Moak and company capitulated, allowing the 76 seat RJ to be operated by regional carriers. Please explain how this is "looking out for the junior pilot"

See post #45

Carl

do you guys even have limits on the 50 seaters? why loosen the scope beyond the 36 avro's? did the majors not learn from the 50 seaters? the ones that got hurt the worst were the most junior pilots which include the regionals and everyone to come.

as with my spelling...oops. If I thought i was a great speller then I would be ignorant about that fact but I'm aware of it. we both know that's not what we were talking about.

Try not to keep changing the subject Eric. Your thesis was that changes to scope amounts to senior guys not looking out for the junior guys. I responded to you by reminding you that junior guys voted it in along with everyone else. I'm not saying it was a good thing to vote that way, but that's how they voted. That's the subject. That's the topic.

As far as your spelling, everyone makes errors. I just thought it ironic that you would insult me and then misspell the insult.

Carl

sailingfun,

Not to pick on you, but your recollection of the break-up of Pan Am is in error.

You are correct that Pan Am sold it's Asian routes (along with aircraft and pilots) to United (I think Pan Am transferred some L-1011's to United as part of that deal. United subsequently sold those L-1011's to DAL.) United also purchased Pan Am's London-Heathrow routes (I'm not sure about aircraft and pilots).

When Delta bought Pan Am's shuttle and North Atlantic routes in 11/91, Pan Am still operated it's Miami hub. At the time Delta had agreed to fund that operation, to a maximum of $100 M, and to feed the Miami hub. They also had the right to purchase Pan Am's Miami operation at some point in the future.

It turned out, less than a month later, that Pan Am was losing money hand-over-fist in Miami and Delta quit funding it. Pan Am then ceased operations. Delta was sued for $2.5 B by Pan Am and its creditors for breach of suit

American's Latin American operation was not purchased from Pan Am, but rather from Eastern, for over $300 M. That's where American got the A-300's that they operate, from Eastern.

United bought Pan Am's Latin American route authority in bankruptcy court for $135 M after Pan Am ceased operations

Carl,

It's true that the membership at Delta voted for the scope clause that we now have. I don't have access to voting demographics to be able to confirm or deny that the junior pilots voted for it. Based upon comments made to me by junior pilots at the time, they felt completely sold out by ALPA. Most of these individuals had recently returned from furlough.

Letter 51, which is what that agreement was called, was a yes or no vote to the whole agreement at the 11th hour. I stand by my statement that "Lee Moak and company capitulated..."

sailingfun,
I beg to differ. You state: "The money was scheduled to be paid in proportion to the loss each pilot had in the terminated retirement plan."

If that were the case, and the distribution methodology were equitable, there should have been a reduction in the calculation for a PC-3 pilot (over age 53) so that a 52 year old and 53 year old pilot should be approximately equal, in dollar terms, when they retire and you add their pension payments and their claim allocation adjusted for a reasonable growth rate until they retire.

ALPA did no such thing. The PC-3 pilot will receive roughly 80% of his qualified benefit. The 52 year old will get the PBGC guarantee which is a probably over a thousand bucks a month less. And this is fair?


You might want to do a little more research on what happened before you post...

Look at ADC Dispatch 07-09 again. What you said ALPA "should" do is exactly what ALPA "did" do on one silo of that model. The other silos had FAE's raised and years of service calculations. All in all it was very fair. The only guys with real losses were guys like me that lost a portion of non-qualified benefits, but even those were treated like every other bankruptcy claim.

I think Troy Kane, the bottom guy who hadn't flown a flight as a Delta pilot, got about $150K from the bankruptcy returns. Don't know how long you've been here, but after 20 years and being 20% on the list I got about $300K. Tell me again how ALPA didn't take care of the junior guy?:rolleyes:

Try not to keep changing the subject Eric. Your thesis was that changes to scope amounts to senior guys not looking out for the junior guys. I responded to you by reminding you that junior guys voted it in along with everyone else. I'm not saying it was a good thing to vote that way, but that's how they voted. That's the subject. That's the topic.

As far as your spelling, everyone makes errors. I just thought it ironic that you would insult me and then misspell the insult.

Carl

who put the loosening scope language in the contract to vote on?

I would consider any pilot who would most likely never fly a 50 or 70 seater a senior pilot. that would cover about 75% of a pilot group and I think that might be a generous number.

you mentioned that the senior guys covered cobra for furloughed pilots. was it one specfic group of pilots or all of the remaining pilots that covered the cost? at my company everyone who wasn't furloughed helped out. maybe it was different at nwa.

slowplay,

IIRC there were four silos. An "adjustment" on one of the four silos does not come close to making up the difference I was talking about.

From what you said, "The only guys with real losses were guys like me who lost a portion of their unqualified benefits", it looks like you are a PC-3 guy, so of course you think it's fair.

After DALPA announced the distribution methodology, many guys were upset that, once again, the senior pilots were rewarded. DALPA's justification was something like this: "Well the $2.1 B claim was not for the loss of our retirement plan. It was for our contract concessions. If we modeled it after retirement losses the PBGC would sue us to get at that money." Remember that?

I think your estimation of what Troy Kane got is off by about $100K. I know some co-pilots who got about $50K, at least that's what they told me.

If you want another example of DALPA's sellout of the junior pilot: Remember contract '96 and the early retirement program that was going to produce "unprecedented growth"?

Again IIRC, Delta put up $200 M and guaranteed 500 pilots would "retire early". Many pilots walked away with the early retirement bonuses and left on their normal retirement date. How does that help the junior pilot? Bill Brown (MEC Chairman at the time) and Company "got theirs" and the rest of us got hosed.

who put the loosening scope language in the contract to vote on?

I see. Forget about the fact that junior pilots voted for scope changes. The real problem was who put the language there in the first place? I actually don't know who "put" the language in there - I would be speculating. I do give ALL pilots more credit than you however. I think all of them are adults capable of making an informed voting decision.

I too have grown weary of trying to explain fairly basic things to you. You are obvioiusly new to the industry, so I have an old saying that you may want to consider: "Better to remain silent and have others wonder if you are a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Good luck on your decision.

Carl

Wasatch, You are correct it was UAL. My mistake. However they still did not take a single Pan Am pilot. Every aircraft Pan Am brought over was gone in 3 years. Delta agreed to provide Pan Am funding as you mentioned. They were given around 25 million which was expected to get them through the next 4 to 6 months. Less then a month after getting the cash Pan Am asked Delta for another 25 million. Delta wanted a accounting for where the first 25 million went. Pan Am could not account for most of the money. It has simply dissappeared. Delta declined to provide further funding until they could account for the missing money. A lawsuit was filed but it never went anywhere.

Ok fellas lets take the next exit off memory lane and turn on the the future expressway. The past is the past, maybe ALPA should look at all the mistakes they have made in the past and learn from them. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome defines insanity. These groups have a chance to change the ALPA family tree. I am fully aware that I am a Jr. guy and when the lists are merged I expect to be a Jr. guy with the same bright future as I have at NWA. I am also aware of the belief of some of the DAL guys that they are doing us some big favor and allowing us to join thier group of elite pilots. Well, DAL guys, I don't think it is like that, I think that the new Delta pilot group has a chance to be the group that everyone says, "thank god they got their act together and put their egos aside and signed a record deal..." As a former Comair guy that went on strike for 89 days to set the regional pay bar, only to see other pilot groups fold like a house of cards. That strike wasn't worth it b/c it didn't change anything. We have a chance to make this job a profession again. We NWA need to forget about red, green and blue and see the future. DAL guys, some of you need to get on board and learn that there is power in numbers.

Well said. You'd be amazed how similar our pilot groups are in some sense. I was fortunate enough to have job offers from both nwa/dal, and most of the folks I know from both airlines really want the same thing from their careers. As a DAL newbie, i'd never for a second think we're any better than other fellow aviators. Our DAL pride runs deep in our history, and it shows everyday, but some may think us as ignorant, self-evolving tools that ask for wind-check on every landings. Trust me, the new blood that is infusing into Delta is changing it day by day, and we want to be as successful as we can be.

It's time to stop reciting history lessons and start working together!

Wasatch, You are correct it was UAL. My mistake. However they still did not take a single Pan Am pilot.

I hope you're not referring to UAL as having not taken a single Pan Am pilot. Because of course UAL took over 500 Pan Am pilots.

Carl

Carl, They did not take a single Pan Am pilot when they picked up the South American operation. That is what we were discussing not the Pacific operation.

Carl, They did not take a single Pan Am pilot when they picked up the South American operation. That is what we were discussing not the Pacific operation.

OK...since you said South America the "they" you must be talking about is AMR not UAL. That was my question.

Carl

Carl,

If you look at post 54 you'll see that UAL bought Pan Am's Latin American route authority in bankruptcy court after they had ceased operations. As such, ALPA's fragmentation policy didn't apply, and UAL didn't take any aircraft or pilots.

AMR's Latin American operation was purchased from Eastern, not Pan Am.

I see. Forget about the fact that junior pilots voted for scope changes. The real problem was who put the language there in the first place? I actually don't know who "put" the language in there - I would be speculating. I do give ALL pilots more credit than you however. I think all of them are adults capable of making an informed voting decision.

I too have grown weary of trying to explain fairly basic things to you. You are obvioiusly new to the industry, so I have an old saying that you may want to consider: "Better to remain silent and have others wonder if you are a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Good luck on your decision.

Carl

back to throwing insults...nice

I never said the "real" problem was who put in the language, it's just part of the problem. sorry that it's tough to face, but the majority of your pilots would never fly the 50 or 70 seater so the importance factor drops when voting. I'm sure that some very junior people voted for it as well.

I do agree with you that it gets old trying to explain very simple things to you as well. I know that you're a little older. did you forget to drink your ensure?

those adults that made an informed voting decision sold out the junior and future pilots.

by the way what's the decision I need luck on???

Hummmm....

What happened to the last 10-15 posts that were on here before?

I wish the best for all the NWA/DAL folks in this merger but history, with respect to this scenario, is heavily laden pain and suffering on all sides. The pre-emtive move by DAL MEC , which I completely understand, will not make it smooth, trust me.

WG