Airline Pilot Forums

Hey here's an idea, start by bringing pay rates down to near "Line Pilot" rates for the national officers. Not one of them has had to share the financial pain the rest of their "union brothers and sisters" have. They failed miserably protecting pensions and now they want to take a grab at 401K? I guess that would be fine when they can negotiate a 50% pay increase.

No F'in way.

In light of the recent or impending loss of a large number of pilots from ALPA, including those from US Airways, America West, Skyway, Aloha, ATA, and Champion, ALPA faces a significant shortfall in its operating budget from diminished dues revenues. The ALPA Executive Council and Executive Board, at its recent meeting this week, took action on two items that will help close the gap on this funding shortfall.

The first initiative passed by the Council and the Board were the adoption of two resolutions to change both the Constitution and By-Laws and the Administrative Manual to allow 401(k) contributions to be subject to ALPA dues for all ALPA pilots. Current policy exempts 401(k) contributions from dues if a 401(k) plan is the only form of retirement plan available to a pilot group.

If a pilot group had access to a Defined Contribution or similar plan, their 401(k) contributions would be subject to dues. With the freezing or elimination of virtually all of these available plans at those carriers, the pilots of those carriers find themselves paying dues on 401(k) contributions while that plan is their sole remaining retirement vehicle. In the interest of fairness and with consideration of the fiscal shortfall, the Council and Board adopted the proposed resolutions to subject all 401(k) contributions to ALPA dues. This change will not take effect until it is approved by a 2/3 majority vote of the Board of Directors.

That's absolutely disgusting.

How can they keep the same budget and salary without cutting back?

How can we get rid of these irresponsible, greedy, irrelevant clowns? They are freeloading on an already strapped group of professional pilots. They certainly aren't representing us. They are no better than airline management. At least airline management is accountable to someone. Apparently ALPA national is not.

Enjoy my money, you selfish bastards.

I remember seeing a news article last year about union president's salaries. The ALPA president is paid over $700,000 per year.

Here's an old link - not $700K but still way more than any line pilot.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=5309

Wouldn't you know the shortfall in union revenue is that required to fund the ALPA Herndon staff's pension. UFB.

Does anyone else see the irony in ALPA haters complaining about the lack of salary concessions at the top of an organization...designed to prevent salary concessions???

Does anyone else see the irony in ALPA haters complaining about the lack of salary concessions at the top of an organization...designed to prevent salary concessions???

Ah, yes..."designed to prevent salary concessions." Yet another failure of those greedy, bloated bureaucrats.

There's no irony here. Only avarice. ALPA National finds a way to extract more money from those they have failed, all to make sure they continue to retain the same (non-concessionary) pay/benefits for themselves.

Does anyone else see the irony in ALPA haters complaining about the lack of salary concessions at the top of an organization...designed to prevent salary concessions???

You are exactly right.. but it seems the only prevention of salary compensation is for the big boys at the top. Seems they have caught the DC virus where all of us are equal.. just some are more equal than others.

First they agree to do away with the DB plans and now this. Unconscionable and devoid of any leadership or principle.

If that situtation ever comes to fruitation, I would not be surprised at all to see other carriers dump ALPA and form their own.....

If that situtation ever comes to fruitation, I would not be surprised at all to see other carriers dump ALPA and form their own.....

we can only hope

How exactly is ALPA supposed to replace the loss of dues from Aloha, ATA, Champion, Skyway, US Air and possibly more airlines going under?

While I find the top end of the ALPA pay-scale excessive, the resources that ALPA provides make the dues I pay worthwhile.

I think the inclusion of 401k contributions is the lesser of two evils. The only other option I can see is to raise the dues percentage which would hurt much more...

How exactly is ALPA supposed to replace the loss of dues from Aloha, ATA, Champion, Skyway, US Air and possibly more airlines going under?

Just like any business should - get costs in line with income (revenue). LECs are budgeted $44 per YEAR for each pilot they represent, so what is this budget crisis?

ALPA has some prime real estate that they can sell, staff who can forego a raise (didn't say pay cut), and officers who should take a pay cut. There is a highly paid IT department who provide a the most useless web experience to the membership possible. Ditch the world's most expensive magazine subscription - or at least sell advertising. The list goes on and on, but instead they want to go after pilot retirements. UFB

If there was a leader who could actually get the unions financial house in order by making tough decisions I'd be more prone to listen to them whine about Airline Management's inability to do the same.

I think it's apparent that pilot's don't run the union - it's the staffers and they are going to give in without a fight.

Agreed--the website is very 1994...the IT department actually gets paid?? It's not high school computer science deptartment charity case?

And the magazine simply SUCKS. Absolutely WORTHLESS. The paper is worth less with ALPA crap printed on it, than without it.

There's .5% of my salary each year...greedy bastards. You would have been sh!tcanned long ago in the "real world," ALPA National.

p.s....Prater, if you're willing to make the commitment.. I'd probably support your NutriSystem diet for a couple of months if you wanted to give it a try.

No? how about Atkins or South Beach? Please?

Reminds me when the countless office workers at ALPA HQ went on strike for more pay.

The good news is they are working on age 70. Who needs retirement?

How exactly is ALPA supposed to replace the loss of dues from Aloha, ATA, Champion, Skyway, US Air and possibly more airlines going under?

While I find the top end of the ALPA pay-scale excessive, the resources that ALPA provides make the dues I pay worthwhile.

I think the inclusion of 401k contributions is the lesser of two evils. The only other option I can see is to raise the dues percentage which would hurt much more...

The UAW, Machinists, Iorn workers, Steel workers and pipefitters have done just fine without reaching further into their members' pockets. How do they do it?

Thats because the steel workers have branched out they now represent the ramp rats and flight attendants for Pinnacle.

If there are significantly less pilots to work for, then less staffing, less office space and resources needed, correct?

If there are significantly less pilots to work for, then less staffing, less office space and resources needed, correct?

Wrong.

While there undoubtedly will be some job cuts, major job cuts are just what some airline managements would love so that ALPA has its hands tied by a lack of resources available to it.

Wrong.

While there undoubtedly will be some job cuts, major job cuts are just what some airline managements would love so that ALPA has its hands tied by a lack of resources available to it.

I'll bet more than a few ALPA members which some of National's hands were tied behind their back with this money grab.

First thing an individual or family does when finances are trimmed is CUT BACK ON EXPENSES. Thus far, I have not read one tiny notation of National doing anything different. There is something basically WRONG with that approach.
There is ALWAYS fat in the budget, especially in ANY organization that has been around for a few decades and just like fat guys who don't want to concede the extra pounds, National obviously has no intention of going on a diet.

This is from an ad for a job slot at National. The date was not included but 2 for 1 matching 401K? Does any airline have this generous benefit? And health care after 18yrs of service?

ALPA offers competitive salaries with superior benefits, including:

* 26 days paid vacation and holidays per year,
* generous sick and bereavement leave,
* company-paid premiums for family health care (medical, dental, and vision for employee, spouse, and dependent children) and life insurance,
* $2 for $1 matching 401(k) retirement savings plan,
* flexible spending accounts, and
* retiree health plan eligibility after 18 years of service (over 45% of our employees have been here ten years or more

I'll bet more than a few ALPA members which some of National's hands were tied behind their back with this money grab.

First thing an individual or family does when finances are trimmed is CUT BACK ON EXPENSES. Thus far, I have not read one tiny notation of National doing anything different. There is something basically WRONG with that approach.
There is ALWAYS fat in the budget, especially in ANY organization that has been around for a few decades and just like fat guys who don't want to concede the extra pounds, National obviously has no intention of going on a diet.

This is from an ad for a job slot at National. The date was not included but 2 for 1 matching 401K? Does any airline have this generous benefit? And health care after 18yrs of service?

You will see significant cutbacks by the end of the summer. Unfortunately, this will not be enough to cover the significant loss of dues. Without cutting back to the point that ALPA can not be effective, there are only two choices: raise the dues percentage outright or deduct the current percentage based on income prior to 401k contributions. The latter is the lesser of two evils in my opinion.

You will see significant cutbacks by the end of the summer. Unfortunately, this will not be enough to cover the significant loss of dues. Without cutting back to the point that ALPA can not be effective, there are only two choices: raise the dues percentage outright or deduct the current percentage based on income prior to 401k contributions. The latter is the lesser of two evils in my opinion.

Since you see nothing wrong and you want ALPA to maintain everything, why dont you donate,say 20% -25% of your salary to ALPA National?

Since you see nothing wrong and you want ALPA to maintain everything, why dont you donate,say 20% -25% of your salary to ALPA National?

Thats an unproductive comment. I never said I wanted ALPA to "maintain everything". I have said before that I believe some of the top pay scales are excessive. I also mentioned that there will be job cuts by the end of the summer.

My point is that there is only so much that can be cut before it affects ALPA's ability to function effectively. The loss in dues caused by the reduction in membership can not be covered exclusively by budget reductions. For example, the MCF, Air Safety, and Legal departments are just a few examples of areas where budget cuts would be devastating.

My point is that there is only so much that can be cut before it affects ALPA's ability to function effectively.

Function effectively?

I'd hardly consider whatever national does in DC right now anything remotely resembling "effective."

Are you telling me Prater earns whatever exorbitant salary he's paid? Has it gone down commensurate with salaries industry-wide?

Maybe now is the time to "furlough" the current fat cats and get some folks in there who are going to advocate for the rank-and-file, and not their own selfish interests.

Folks,

ALPO is like a country club in more ways than one. When expenses exceed income the exec board calls for an assessment of the (remaining) membership to pay the bills. Just like if ALPO gets sued and they were to loose, national will not suffer....only the schmucks who pay the bills. At one time the eb was considering whether or not to attempt to "attach" members assets in order to finance some percieved (real or not) threat. It is time to get out while the gettin's good. It could get real ugly if another major (NWA or UAL) were to leave the fold.
IMHO.

Trust ALPA, they have thier memberships best interests at heart.

Folks,

ALPO is like a country club in more ways than one............................................... .................................................. ..................................It could get real ugly if another major (NWA or UAL) were to leave the fold.
IMHO.

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ALPO like a country club???

Oh, sure, I see it now. Just like the inflatable advertisements at the masters on the side of the green, likewise ALPA inflates a rat, screams underneath it. Good point. I've always enjoyed the "high classy life" that comes along with my ALPA magazine.

Dude -------> It is nothing like a country club, that's why American Airlines, America West, and USAirways all quit.

Thats an unproductive comment. I never said I wanted ALPA to "maintain everything". I have said before that I believe some of the top pay scales are excessive. I also mentioned that there will be job cuts by the end of the summer.

My point is that there is only so much that can be cut before it affects ALPA's ability to function effectively. The loss in dues caused by the reduction in membership can not be covered exclusively by budget reductions. For example, the MCF, Air Safety, and Legal departments are just a few examples of areas where budget cuts would be devastating.


A percentage increase is much more paletable. If you use a little common sense, as you gain more seniority, change seats, and otherwise increase your gross pay, you are able to contribute progressively more towards your retirement plan. Allowing anybody, even ALPA, to asses based upon gross pay is wrong. Even the Government doesn't tax our retirement contributions. This is just plain wrong. Additonally, there are several airlines that do not even have retirement plans.... they have savings plans in a 401k format. If ALPA needs money, let them raise the percentage taken from the net.

What is the legality of basing union dues on gross pay and not post IRA/401k contributions? The government can't tax the money, how can a union? Lastly, this association is one of few that actually use a percentage... most that I am aware of use a flat weekly/monthly fee. Why should a 15 year Capt be paying $2,000 a year and an FO be paying $500 a year? Does one get better representation than the other?

Why should a 15 year Capt be paying $2,000 a year and an FO be paying $500 a year? Does one get better representation than the other?
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At FDX, most definitely. I would change it to 55+ year old Capt though.

They need to lose that magazine. Most go direct to the trash anyway.

We need to dump agency shop on this next contract as well since money is the only tool we have for keeping national accountable. I pay dues for service, not dis-service.

This sickens me!

It may sicken you...but does it surprise you?

ALPA has become impotent and irrelevant and is now feeling the pain the rest of us have for years. The only difference is, they can go find more money to support their lack of an efficient business model and excessive salaries...sounds sort of like airline management.

Why should a 15 year Capt be paying $2,000 a year and an FO be paying $500 a year? Does one get better representation than the other?



Why does a person making 150k per year pay taxes at a higher percentage rate than a person making 30k per year?

Your question is stupid; the answer is obvious; and nobody really cares anyway.

other than that.... great point :eek:

Why does a person making 150k per year pay taxes at a higher percentage rate than a person making 30k per year?



Because Congress knows they can pass laws where in you take from a minority to please a majority. It's not rocket surgery. The bulk of personal income taxes are paid by a small minority of US citizens.

And Congress knows that the average person believes anyone making more should pay more. And they also know that many believe anyone who is 'rich' (usually defined as someone making twice what you are making) is probably not earning it but rather gaining it via nefarious means so the gov should take some of it.

And to further the point, those who pay the most get the least in return while those who pay little to nothing avail themselves of more services.

Because Congress knows they can pass laws where in you take from a minority to please a majority. It's not rocket surgery. The bulk of personal income taxes are paid by a small minority of US citizens.

And Congress knows that the average person believes anyone making more should pay more. And they also know that many believe anyone who is 'rich' (usually defined as someone making twice what you are making) is probably not earning it but rather gaining it via nefarious means so the gov should take some of it.

And to further the point, those who pay the most get the least in return while those who pay little to nothing avail themselves of more services.

Exactly III Corps. The top ten percent of taxpayers are now saddled with over 70% of the income tax burden. Government sponsored slavery and economic discrimination is alive and well.
Everyone wants equal rights, but few will step forward and claim equal responsibility.
I would tell ALPA to come and get it if they think they can, which I very much doubt.

And the magazine simply SUCKS. Absolutely WORTHLESS. The paper is worth less with ALPA crap printed on it, than without it.

I disagree, I've been using it to line the bottom of my bird cage for quite a while now. Maybe I should save the shat on linings and FedEx them all back someday. :D

On a more serious note, what can we really do about this? At the end of the day, they're gonna go through with this whether we like it or not. Prater did pick the right slogan though... "Taking it back," from the pilot group, that is.

How long till ALPA flies West???

What a crock! I just sit back and shake my head for guys who fall for all this brotherhood BS!! Your a brother if you work for ALPA, your outsider if you fly the line, they just want your money! These guys are getting paid captain pay to sit home, be with their families, play golf, play on the computer along while I'm out there spending my time on the road away from my family. And now you them supporting a the idea of taking away the secret ballot. Why? So they can harrass you.