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Northwest and Delta pilots plan to take contract proposal to management tomorrow

Associated Press - May 28, 2008 5:34 PM ET
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) - Northwest and Delta pilots plan to go to Delta management with a proposed joint contract tomorrow.
A new hot line message from Northwest's pilot union doesn't address the stickiest issue -- seniority. But pilots have said they expect that to be worked out later.
The message says Northwest pilots believe a joint contract can be achieved quickly.
Northwest and Delta airlines are aiming to combine into the world's largest carrier this year, if they get federal approval. They don't need pilot permission to combine, but merging the pilot groups will save the new airline money.
...

So... any opinions?

nothing about it on the DALPA sites...

Nothing on the NWA-ALPA site either...

We are always the last to know. Let me call my barber, I'm sure he knows all about it......

The big question is IF management will sign off on the pay raises that we want. If we get past this then the real fun starts.
My prediction is a ratio but if there is a furlough it will come equally from both sides.

Any confirmation available on this?

Any confirmation available on this?

No. Some of the higher ups are indicating that it is true though.

The Big Wigs on our message board are indicating that it is true, but of course no specifics are availiable.

Hope it's a goodin'

This contract is not going to happen like the last one. It will be many months before there is a agreement if one can be reached at all. The issue of the DC-9's is looming larger and larger with each fuel increase. Management is not going to agree to a no furlough clause and its going to bog the whole process down.

This contract is not going to happen like the last one. It will be many months before there is a agreement if one can be reached at all. The issue of the DC-9's is looming larger and larger with each fuel increase. Management is not going to agree to a no furlough clause and its going to bog the whole process down.


I guess I'll never pass up on a chance to defend the -9.

Sailing,

Why do you always single out the DC-9 as being in jeapordy?

What is the MD-88 fuel burn in comparison to the DC-9?

Also, what is the required stopping distance?

Just wondering?

By the way a no furlough clause is seldom worth the paper on which it is printed. When economic push comes to shove management will find a way to furlough. Something in the recent Delta past comes to mind........Force Majure.

lets not argue about the same bs thats on ALL the other threads. Our MEC has indicated they are meeting with mgmt today so lets hope they get this done so we can move forward. Cheers

I am sure that we will see protections for both groups in the event of a furlough. I think that both sides will take hits if it comes to this. It will be out of seniority order, but it may need to be what is done to get this done. I do not want an arbitrator deciding my fate for the next 32 years. Fact is that we all want this to be black and white. Fact is that both sides see it from all angles and no one wants to get screwed. Makes sense.
It will be a difficult process to get us together. Long term thinking is needed. We cannot look at the next 5-10 years we need to look at the next 15-20.
The SLI will result in many people being unhappy. It is what it is. Either way, let hope that we get enough "growth" aircraft so that we can easily get over the "injustices" done by the SLI.

This contract is not going to happen like the last one. It will be many months before there is a agreement if one can be reached at all. The issue of the DC-9's is looming larger and larger with each fuel increase. Management is not going to agree to a no furlough clause and its going to bog the whole process down.

Sailing,

You're wrong about the DC-9's. Outside analysts are confirming what I've been hearing for quite some time. The NWA DC-9's are particularly interesting at this time because of their flexibility. Since they are owned outright, they can be parked and they don't cost the company a penny. MD-88's (for example) can be parked also, but the company still owes the lease payments. Thus, parking MD-88's mean the loss of revenue plus the requirement to continue lease payments. Makes it a double whammy. This is why the DC-9's are still here. This is why (in my opinion) they will be here for quite some time. Their increased fuel burn is far outweighed by the flexibility inherent in them because of their no ownership cost, and their no cost to park.

Carl

Since they are owned outright, they can be parked and they don't cost the company a penny. MD-88's (for example) can be parked also, but the company still owes the lease payments. Thus, parking MD-88's mean the loss of revenue plus the requirement to continue lease payments. Makes it a double whammy. This is why the DC-9's are still here. This is why (in my opinion) they will be here for quite some time. Their increased fuel burn is far outweighed by the flexibility inherent in them because of their no ownership cost, and their no cost to park.


This statement doesn't keep the 9's flying it confirms the argument to park them...parking the 88's still costs the company money, parking the 9's saves money....you sure your a 400 CPT...

Lots of conflicting rumors about the DAL/NWA ability to withstand the current spike in jet fuel costs, all the way from needing to hire to immediate furloughs. Hoping you guys get it worked out and start hiring in the fall like it's projected on this site. What makes you think it won't work out that way?

Second hand news, but Flight Ops management has a lounge brief every Wednesday. At yesturday's briefing management admitted that fuel prices have put the DC9 under increased scrutiny and the question whether it remains in Delta's fleet is being evaluated.

Delta still supposed to be hiring around 400 this fall, pending an SLI agreement. With an SLI my understanding is that the status of future hiring is not currently known.

I'll defer to anyone who was actually at the meeting, since this all came to me second hand.

2007 GAl Fuel Burn / CASM (including aircraft acquisition costs, crew, maintenance, Taxes & Insurance)

DC9-30__ 762 / 11.1
DC9-40__ 797 / 9.5
DC9-50__ 867 / 8.8

MD88__ 884 / 7.5

747-200 _ 3321 / 6.6

A319 __ 703 / 6.1

737-8__ 778 / 5.6

7572 NWA__ 994 / 6.0
7572 DAL___ 976 / 5.4
753 NWA __ 1177 / 4.2

767300ER__ 1558 / 5.6
767400 __ 1676 / 4.5
A330__ 1816 / 4.3

B777___ 2220 / 5.9
B747400 _ 3335 / 5.0

Anyone heard rumors of a 737 order?

the dc9 and the md80 have different missions, thats what a lot of people leave out of the discussions. The DC9 is going to be good for replacing a couple 50 seaters.

Mesa got an injunction against Delta today. It does not look like Delta is going to be able to walk away from their DCI contracts. It would be hard to imagine Delta walking away from Comair after sinking more than 3Bn into that operation.

It may be that 50 seaters replace DC9's and today's little legal development did not help matters.

Mesa got an injunction against Delta today. It does not look like Delta is going to be able to walk away from their DCI contracts. It would be hard to imagine Delta walking away from Comair after sinking more than 3Bn into that operation.

It may be that 50 seaters replace DC9's and today's little legal development did not help matters.

The regional industry is about to go through a major overhaul just as the majors are. Its no surprise that the 50 seaters are on the chopping block, especially the older CRJs.

This statement doesn't keep the 9's flying it confirms the argument to park them...parking the 88's still costs the company money, parking the 9's saves money....you sure your a 400 CPT...

The key is flexibility. They can park them or they can fly them. If they park them, they save money. If they fly them their total cost of operation is about the same as other 100 seat airplanes that have to be leased. If you don't understand that, I can't help you.

Carl

Mesa got an injunction against Delta today. It does not look like Delta is going to be able to walk away from their DCI contracts. It would be hard to imagine Delta walking away from Comair after sinking more than 3Bn into that operation.

It may be that 50 seaters replace DC9's and today's little legal development did not help matters.

winning the injunction doesn't mean they have won the case...DAL could still "win" if the company can prove Mesa did not honor it's agreement.

And as far as the 9s go...posts on the DALPA boards say an FAA MX inspector who was on board an AC recently is one of the MX guys working on the combined plan and there are no -9s in it. Again...just rumor....

And as far as the 9s go...posts on the DALPA boards say an FAA MX inspector who was on board an AC recently is one of the MX guys working on the combined plan and there are no -9s in it. Again...just rumor....

thats funny i just heard a rumor from a FAA MX inspector that DAL was parking all their 22 year old 767s. Heard that on the NWA FA board, Again its just a rumor....;)

thats funny i just heard a rumor from a FAA MX inspector that DAL was parking all their 22 year old 767s. Heard that on the NWA FA board, Again its just a rumor....;)

I don't know about "all" of them but I believe there are a few that are going to be returned to the lessors if they can't re-negotiate a better deal on them. Those that are returned will be the non ER 300s.

The fleet flexibility created by the merger could give us tremendous flexibility. Right now, DAL has no in between aircraft on the 757-200 and the 767-300. However, the "new" DAL will have the 757-300s. They may be sufficient to replace some 767s. The 767ERs and some 777s will likely go to MSP and DTW and ATL may get the larger guage A330s and 747s. MD-80s may leave SLC for DTW and SLC gets A320s that are better suited for the longer haul flying out of there. Hard to say but adding the complexities of multiple fleet types may be offset by the flexibility we get from them.

I'm still trying to be optimistic about this even with the sabre rattling going on.

Super, and dtfl... why do guys continually post those kind of crap rumors? My wife's podiatrist's secretary's boyfriend said... I mean come on guys... give it a rest.

Super, and dtfl... why do guys continually post those kind of crap rumors? My wife's podiatrist's secretary's boyfriend said... I mean come on guys... give it a rest.


Don't leave us hanging...what did he say??? Was it confirmed by the crew bus driver?:D

Parking the DC-9's is not rumor. NWA's premerger fleet plan for 08 had them being reduced from over 100 aircraft to 68. Just a few years ago there were 160 DC-9's. Recent changes bring that number down to around 60 at the end of the year. That is a loss of over 40 aircraft this year. I don't think you could phase them out any faster if you wanted to.

Mesa got an injunction against Delta today. It does not look like Delta is going to be able to walk away from their DCI contracts. It would be hard to imagine Delta walking away from Comair after sinking more than 3Bn into that operation.

It may be that 50 seaters replace DC9's and today's little legal development did not help matters.

I think the injunction just means Delta can't terminate the contract prior to the case going in front of a judge. It buys them some time but I think that's it. I'm following the big money on this one and if DAL, a $20 billion annual revenue company with their legal department on retainer feel they can win this, than I bet they've done their homework. I don't think Mesa will be victorious. Here's hoping for three flights a day on mainline that will replace their 10 frequencies a day at subpar service.

Parking the DC-9's is not rumor. NWA's premerger fleet plan for 08 had them being reduced from over 100 aircraft to 68. Just a few years ago there were 160 DC-9's. Recent changes bring that number down to around 60 at the end of the year. That is a loss of over 40 aircraft this year. I don't think you could phase them out any faster if you wanted to.

Until they are in bubble wrap, yes, it is a "rumor". "If it ain't painted and sitting on the ramp, it's a rumor." Why don't we deal in tangible fact on this forum for a change?

Don't leave us hanging...what did he say??? Was it confirmed by the crew bus driver?:D

No.. .but the bus driver's mechanic said.....

thats funny i just heard a rumor from a FAA MX inspector that DAL was parking all their 22 year old 767s. Heard that on the NWA FA board, Again its just a rumor....;)

It was sarcasm on my part reread what i wrote(above post ^^^^), not to mention the ";)". I was doing just as you suggest, i was calling out his "rumor".:D

Super, and dtfl... why do guys continually post those kind of crap rumors? My wife's podiatrist's secretary's boyfriend said... I mean come on guys... give it a rest.

OK, then lets comment on confirmed facts.

Delta's remaining 767 fleet is no where near 22 years old. I think some may have come as late as 2001 to 03. These airplanes are getting winglet mods, they already have new FMC's and Delta is spending a Billion on new seats, inflight entertainment and other upgrades.

IMHO -

Mesa's injunction gives a strong indication of the merits of their case.

Injunctions are hard to get because the Court is acting BEFORE the trial. If the Court is willing to stop action preemptively that is a very strong indication that it believes that position will prevail.

I'm not sure if the Contracts with Mesa and Republic are bankruptcy proof, but I'm thinking the bankruptcy tool might get pulled out of the tool box again (for a variety of reasons) but mostly to deal with around 4 to 5 billion dollars worth of DCI contracts. The tail is wagging the dog.

IMHO this puts pressure on Comair (the RJ's that can be parked) and DC9's (the other, other, RJ's that can be parked).

IMHO this puts pressure on Comair (the RJ's that can be parked) and DC9's (the other, other, RJ's that can be parked).


Is that how yall felt about your "RJ" 737-200/300's?:rolleyes: The DC9s will be DAL aircraft soon and until we realize that its not ok to just park those and allow mgmt to get around our scope language the downward slide in our industry will continue. You seem to forget we have scope language to protect our -9s or the jobs they include. IF they are ALL parked its because DALs scope allowed it not NWA. The DC9 has a specific mission and it does a good job in it. The 34ish -50s will be sticking around for a while and i am sure the -40s will also. The -30s are a toss up, they are the 100 seaters that DAL says they need. I think they will be around until replacements can be found. we shall see. Either way there is going to be a big shuffle in aircraft and bases. We are on the same team so there is no reason to fight between groups.

The sooner we realize that we are on the same team the better off the "team" will be.Both groups have smart guys trying to get the best deal possible for their respective pilots. Let's hope they can compromise so we can be mad at them instead of some hooyah arbitrator. I,like everybody,don't want to lose seniority but I do want to play on a stronger team,I will have to compromise.Yes I am senior and I won't get too hurt regardless but I still want to fly to TLV.We all have issues.

IMHO -

Mesa's injunction gives a strong indication of the merits of their case.

Injunctions are hard to get because the Court is acting BEFORE the trial. If the Court is willing to stop action preemptively that is a very strong indication that it believes that position will prevail.

I'm not sure if the Contracts with Mesa and Republic are bankruptcy proof, but I'm thinking the bankruptcy tool might get pulled out of the tool box again (for a variety of reasons) but mostly to deal with around 4 to 5 billion dollars worth of DCI contracts. The tail is wagging the dog.

IMHO this puts pressure on Comair (the RJ's that can be parked) and DC9's (the other, other, RJ's that can be parked).


The court did not rule on the merits of the case which is the basis for Delta's appeal. The accepted the Mesa arguement that without an injunction Mesa would go out of business and therefore a trial would have no meaning or not happen at all. Delta feels it should be decided on the merits of the case.

You seem to forget we have scope language to protect our -9s or the jobs they include. IF they are ALL parked its because DALs scope allowed it not NWA. The DC9 has a specific mission and it does a good job in it. The 34ish -50s will be sticking around for a while and i am sure the -40s will also. The -30s are a toss up, they are the 100 seaters that DAL says they need. I think they will be around until replacements can be found. we shall see. Either way there is going to be a big shuffle in aircraft and bases. We are on the same team so there is no reason to fight between groups.

I agree with ya Super.. Hopefully the committees that are hashing out the joint contract are cherry picking the best parts of both contracts. I demand nothing less, as I am I sure do you. Not badmouthing the -9, but in a parallel universe where airlines can make some money, I would THINK the companies would be looking for a more fuel efficient follow-on. (as I would expect them to do with ALL assets) But then again, like the US congress, when they have cash flow, they never seem to be able to look toward the bad times... I'm glad I don't run my checkbook like that.

Ciao!

The key is flexibility. They can park them or they can fly them. If they park them, they save money. If they fly them their total cost of operation is about the same as other 100 seat airplanes that have to be leased. If you don't understand that, I can't help you.

Carl

You keep making his point. The "flexibility" of which you speak means they're easier and therefore more likely to get parked. If you don't understand that then I can't help you either.

That being said, I spoke with one of the higher ups (name changed to protect the innocent) the other day and he candidly said that while the 30's were to go by by in short order the 50's would very likely have a future as a stop gap measure in the 100 seat market as a gap exists and
they don't like any of the new product available in that seat range. (ERJ and such) He went on to say that in this environment any fleet plan would not only need a date stamp but a time stamp to be reliable, as it may change two or three times in any given day.

Just got an email from DALPA saying the meeting referenced here was not to present a completed joint contract but rather to agree on a three party frame-work for negotiating said agreement. Oh well.

IMHO -

Mesa's injunction gives a strong indication of the merits of their case.

Injunctions are hard to get because the Court is acting BEFORE the trial. If the Court is willing to stop action preemptively that is a very strong indication that it believes that position will prevail.

I'm not sure if the Contracts with Mesa and Republic are bankruptcy proof, but I'm thinking the bankruptcy tool might get pulled out of the tool box again (for a variety of reasons) but mostly to deal with around 4 to 5 billion dollars worth of DCI contracts. The tail is wagging the dog.

IMHO this puts pressure on Comair (the RJ's that can be parked) and DC9's (the other, other, RJ's that can be parked).

I dunno... seems to me that the injunction only prevents immediate CH 7 of Mesa, whereas NOT granting it is a death sentence. I don't think it is any indication of case merit, much less an indication of a strong position. Seems that it gives the lawyers a few more weeks to wring a few more million, and the so-called judges to review the case. JMHO though...

It was sarcasm on my part reread what i wrote(above post ^^^^), not to mention the ";)". I was doing just as you suggest, i was calling out his "rumor".:D


Sorry, my bad :o

^^^tsquare-No problem, i am with you. One Company One Contract^^^^^
Just got an email from DALPA saying the meeting referenced here was not to present a completed joint contract but rather to agree on a three party frame-work for negotiating said agreement. Oh well.

We got the same type of info. Stated they agreed to meet for 3 days in late June to hopefully finish it up. We shall see.

You keep making his point. The "flexibility" of which you speak means they're easier and therefore more likely to get parked. If you don't understand that then I can't help you either.

That being said, I spoke with one of the higher ups (name changed to protect the innocent) the other day and he candidly said that while the 30's were to go by by in short order the 50's would very likely have a future as a stop gap measure in the 100 seat market as a gap exists and
they don't like any of the new product available in that seat range. (ERJ and such) He went on to say that in this environment any fleet plan would not only need a date stamp but a time stamp to be reliable, as it may change two or three times in any given day.

The -30's have 100 seats.

The -50's have 125 seats.

The -40's have 110 seats.

I dunno... seems to me that the injunction only prevents immediate CH 7 of Mesa, whereas NOT granting it is a death sentence. I don't think it is any indication of case merit, much less an indication of a strong position. Seems that it gives the lawyers a few more weeks to wring a few more million, and the so-called judges to review the case. JMHO though...

That's exactly right. The injunction in this case is no indication of the probability that Mesa will prevail at trial.

thats funny i just heard a rumor from a FAA MX inspector that DAL was parking all their 22 year old 767s. Heard that on the NWA FA board, Again its just a rumor....;)


I don't know what you consider a rumor. You had 160 DC-9's 3 years ago. How many do you have today? How many did you have in Dec. How many will you have next Dec. Here is a article that is a little dated. A further reduction of 8 more nines was put out after this.

Northwest speeds up DC-9 reduction

var yahooBuzzArticleId = 'usatoday:http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2008/01/nwa-dc9.html?csp=34';yahooBuzzArticleIdBuzz up! (http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/usatoday/http%253A%252F%252Fblogs.usatoday.com%252Fsky%252F 2008%252F01%252Fnwa-dc9.html%253Fcsp%253D34)
Like this story? Share it with Yahoo! Buzz
Northwest plans to ground one quarter of its DC-9 jets this year as part of a fleet downsizing. But, despite the reductions, the airline says the move will not result in the loss of pilots' jobs. The Minneapolis Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/business/13910961.html) (free registration) writes NWA said "it expects to increase the use of the remaining planes in its fleet and hire 200 to 250 pilots by the year's end." Airline spokesman Roman Blahoski tells the paper extra flying with other aircraft in the NWA fleet "is projected to more than offset the reduction in required DC-9 staffing."
By the end of the year, NWA expects to have 68 DC-9s in its fleet, down from the current 92. The airline had already planned to eliminate some DC-9s this year, but the new projection accelerates that effort. "Everybody is evaluating fleet in the face of current oil prices," William Swelbar, a research engineer at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and author of the blog Swelbar on Airlines (http://www.swelblog.com/), tells the Star Tribune. The Memphis Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/stories/2008/01/21/daily2.html) (free registration) adds NWA's "fleet of DC-9s, which had interiors remodeled in the 1990s, average about 35 years old and are less fuel efficient than newer models. As oil prices climb, the carrier is hoping to save some money by grounding them."

The -30's have 100 seats.

The -50's have 125 seats.

The -40's have 110 seats.

I'm aware, I was just relaying what was said.

Hope you guys are right about Mesa.

I don't know what you consider a rumor. You had 160 DC-9's 3 years ago. How many do you have today? How many did you have in Dec. How many will you have next Dec. Here is a article that is a little dated. A further reduction of 8 more nines was put out after this.

Northwest speeds up DC-9 reduction

var yahooBuzzArticleId = 'usatoday:http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2008/01/nwa-dc9.html?csp=34';yahooBuzzArticleIdBuzz up! (http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/usatoday/http%253A%252F%252Fblogs.usatoday.com%252Fsky%252F 2008%252F01%252Fnwa-dc9.html%253Fcsp%253D34)
Like this story? Share it with Yahoo! Buzz
Northwest plans to ground one quarter of its DC-9 jets this year as part of a fleet downsizing. But, despite the reductions, the airline says the move will not result in the loss of pilots' jobs. The Minneapolis Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/business/13910961.html) (free registration) writes NWA said "it expects to increase the use of the remaining planes in its fleet and hire 200 to 250 pilots by the year's end." Airline spokesman Roman Blahoski tells the paper extra flying with other aircraft in the NWA fleet "is projected to more than offset the reduction in required DC-9 staffing."
By the end of the year, NWA expects to have 68 DC-9s in its fleet, down from the current 92. The airline had already planned to eliminate some DC-9s this year, but the new projection accelerates that effort. "Everybody is evaluating fleet in the face of current oil prices," William Swelbar, a research engineer at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and author of the blog Swelbar on Airlines (http://www.swelblog.com/), tells the Star Tribune. The Memphis Business Journal (http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/stories/2008/01/21/daily2.html) (free registration) adds NWA's "fleet of DC-9s, which had interiors remodeled in the 1990s, average about 35 years old and are less fuel efficient than newer models. As oil prices climb, the carrier is hoping to save some money by grounding them."


Sailing,

Even though there has been no SLI yet, "you" is quickly becoming "we." Those 100 seat aircraft are something that is unique to the Legacy Carriers right now - (Except US Airways EMB-195's). If we were smart, we would be trying to keep them.

How many DC-9 would NWA have next year? I can't say for sure, but I doubt if they would park them all. This may sound funny, but people do have to get from Traverse City and Minot to the hubs you know and they pay big bucks to do it. No matter how much you like the MD-88 or the 737, I doubt that it make sense to take those airplanes into places like that.

The argument to keep the -9s is that there is no real replacement out there for them except the EMB-195. Is it cheaper to keep the -9s or buy a brand new multi million dollar aircraft? I'll let the bean counters make that determination. But, whatever they decide, we as a union should do whatever it takes to keep that flying for the mainline carriers.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should not assume that NWA is planning on parking all of the DC-9s. If they do, they will have to replace them. Which is good for all of us.

New K Now

Sailing,

Even though there has been no SLI yet, "you" is quickly becoming "we." Those 100 seat aircraft are something that is unique to the Legacy Carriers right now - (Except US Airways EMB-195's). If we were smart, we would be trying to keep them.

How many DC-9 would NWA have next year? I can't say for sure, but I doubt if they would park them all. This may sound funny, but people do have to get from Traverse City and Minot to the hubs you know and they pay big bucks to do it. No matter how much you like the MD-88 or the 737, I doubt that it make sense to take those airplanes into places like that.

The argument to keep the -9s is that there is no real replacement out there for them except the EMB-195. Is it cheaper to keep the -9s or buy a brand new multi million dollar aircraft? I'll let the bean counters make that determination. But, whatever they decide, we as a union should do whatever it takes to keep that flying for the mainline carriers.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should not assume that NWA is planning on parking all of the DC-9s. If they do, they will have to replace them. Which is good for all of us.

New K Now

Well put. I hope we can all commit to making sure that ANYTHING north of 76 seats will here and forevermore be flown by mainline pilots, at mainline rates, with mainline paint. He11, I'd be on board for getting the 70s' back (or in the first place). I pray we all learned the scope lessen of the last decade. And yes I held this view when I was a turbo prop and rj driver.

Sailing,

Even though there has been no SLI yet, "you" is quickly becoming "we." Those 100 seat aircraft are something that is unique to the Legacy Carriers right now - (Except US Airways EMB-195's). If we were smart, we would be trying to keep them.

How many DC-9 would NWA have next year? I can't say for sure, but I doubt if they would park them all. This may sound funny, but people do have to get from Traverse City and Minot to the hubs you know and they pay big bucks to do it. No matter how much you like the MD-88 or the 737, I doubt that it make sense to take those airplanes into places like that.

The argument to keep the -9s is that there is no real replacement out there for them except the EMB-195. Is it cheaper to keep the -9s or buy a brand new multi million dollar aircraft? I'll let the bean counters make that determination. But, whatever they decide, we as a union should do whatever it takes to keep that flying for the mainline carriers.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should not assume that NWA is planning on parking all of the DC-9s. If they do, they will have to replace them. Which is good for all of us.

New K Now

Great Post!! Couldnt agree more!!

It would be great if they kept them. Sadly if you run even basic fuel numbers reality shows up in a hurry. The question for the union is how do we capture the follow on flying as the nines go away at the mainline. I am sure management wants that flying at Compass or another connection carrier. We have to fight to secure the replacement flying at the mainline. Its one of the reasons that a joint contract is going to take longer then most think!

It would be great if they kept them. Sadly if you run even basic fuel numbers reality shows up in a hurry. The question for the union is how do we capture the follow on flying as the nines go away at the mainline. I am sure management wants that flying at Compass or another connection carrier. We have to fight to secure the replacement flying at the mainline. Its one of the reasons that a joint contract is going to take longer then most think!

why would working together fighting for the same cause make a joint contract take longer? Both groups want to protect the mainline flying, seems like mutual concerns to me.

I don't know what you consider a rumor. You had 160 DC-9's 3 years ago. How many do you have today? How many did you have in Dec. How many will you have next Dec. Here is a article that is a little dated. A further reduction of 8 more nines was put out after this.


Since you don't seem to want to understand the concept of it being a rumor until the aircraft are actually parked, I've noticed that you don't post about how dangerous you think this merger is for DAL. I mean, as badly as you continually portray NWA, shouldn't you also warn DAL about the hazards of merging with such a stone-age airline?

And by the way, we've had a number of DC-9's come back from the desert shortly after being parked.

Carl

It would be great if they kept them. Sadly if you run even basic fuel numbers reality shows up in a hurry

Really? Since you've run the numbers, care to post them here? And be sure you run the numbers on total cost of ownership given that they are paid for. Or...maybe you didn't run THOSE numbers.

The question for the union is how do we capture the follow on flying as the nines go away at the mainline. I am sure management wants that flying at Compass or another connection carrier. We have to fight to secure the replacement flying at the mainline. Its one of the reasons that a joint contract is going to take longer then most think!

Why should that issue make negotiations take longer than last time? DAL folks (especially you) have done nothing but wave the bloody shirt of DC-9 retirements from day 1, yet last time DALPA and NWALPA negotiated a joint agreement (minus SLI) in less than a week.

Carl

Since you don't seem to want to understand the concept of it being a rumor until the aircraft are actually parked, I've noticed that you don't post about how dangerous you think this merger is for DAL. I mean, as badly as you continually portray NWA, shouldn't you also warn DAL about the hazards of merging with such a stone-age airline?

And by the way, we've had a number of DC-9's come back from the desert shortly after being parked.

Carl

I don't think this is a dangerous merger for DAL... Do you Carl?

Since you don't seem to want to understand the concept of it being a rumor until the aircraft are actually parked, I've noticed that you don't post about how dangerous you think this merger is for DAL. I mean, as badly as you continually portray NWA, shouldn't you also warn DAL about the hazards of merging with such a stone-age airline?

And by the way, we've had a number of DC-9's come back from the desert shortly after being parked.

Carl

Carl, Excepting that 35 to 38 year old inefficient aircraft are going to be parked does not portray NWA in a bad light. Its a simply reality. I have listened in two lounge briefs where management has discussed the aircraft. They are history. There will not be a DC-9 in the fleet within 36 months of the merger. Aircraft get retired all the time. Its the nature of the beast. Before the Delta/NWA merger was even announced you guys were phasing them out fast. You had 160 less then 3 years ago. I think you have about 80 today and you are parking a couple each month. These are the oldest most fuel inefficient aircraft at any major airline. There is going to be a major domestic pull down of flying by all US airlines. Greater then what is already been put out. Delta had DC-9's that they retired in the early 90's because of maintenance costs and fuel burn. They just retired 54 737-200's all built after 1983 for the same reason. The 737's were replaced with E-170's. My point is that we need to focus on that not happening with the nines and making sure the replacement flying is recaptured by the mainline. The nines are gone. They were going when you were a standalone airline and they are going with the merger. Who gets the replacement flying is the question.

I don't think this is a dangerous merger for DAL... Do you Carl?

I am increasingly of the belief that it is not the right move for both airlines. I've listened to Gary Kelly, Bob Crandall, Gordon Bethune and other airline analysts, and they all express their fear of spending 1 Billion dollars on combining two companies from the cash coffers that should probably be carefully guarded in this environment. It's a lot of money to spend on painting airplanes and moving headquarters' etc. Long term, it is probably a good thing. But you don't get to live in the long term if you die in the short term.

Some awfully smart people are saying they would not do it at this time, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of their logic.

Carl

Carl, Excepting that 35 to 38 year old inefficient aircraft are going to be parked does not portray NWA in a bad light. Its a simply reality. I have listened in two lounge briefs where management has discussed the aircraft. They are history. There will not be a DC-9 in the fleet within 36 months of the merger. Aircraft get retired all the time. Its the nature of the beast. Before the Delta/NWA merger was even announced you guys were phasing them out fast. You had 160 less then 3 years ago. I think you have about 80 today and you are parking a couple each month. These are the oldest most fuel inefficient aircraft at any major airline. There is going to be a major domestic pull down of flying by all US airlines. Greater then what is already been put out. Delta had DC-9's that they retired in the early 90's because of maintenance costs and fuel burn. They just retired 54 737-200's all built after 1983 for the same reason. The 737's were replaced with E-170's. My point is that we need to focus on that not happening with the nines and making sure the replacement flying is recaptured by the mainline. The nines are gone. They were going when you were a standalone airline and they are going with the merger. Who gets the replacement flying is the question.

You talk a great deal about things you do not know for certain. That is your right - but understand that is what you are doing. Only time will tell if your guesses are right.

Carl

Carl, Excepting that 35 to 38 year old inefficient aircraft are going to be parked does not portray NWA in a bad light. Its a simply reality. I have listened in two lounge briefs where management has discussed the aircraft. They are history. There will not be a DC-9 in the fleet within 36 months of the merger. Aircraft get retired all the time. Its the nature of the beast. Before the Delta/NWA merger was even announced you guys were phasing them out fast. You had 160 less then 3 years ago. I think you have about 80 today and you are parking a couple each month. These are the oldest most fuel inefficient aircraft at any major airline. There is going to be a major domestic pull down of flying by all US airlines. Greater then what is already been put out. Delta had DC-9's that they retired in the early 90's because of maintenance costs and fuel burn. They just retired 54 737-200's all built after 1983 for the same reason. The 737's were replaced with E-170's. My point is that we need to focus on that not happening with the nines and making sure the replacement flying is recaptured by the mainline. The nines are gone. They were going when you were a standalone airline and they are going with the merger. Who gets the replacement flying is the question.

Sailing,

Considering that the 9's represent the 100 seat market, if the 9's do get retired, what are they going to be replaced with? Basically I asking you to find out the earliest an airline can expect delivery of a brand new EMB-195 (try 50-75 of them). Or, do you think the company will just allow a gap in aircraft sizes to be between 70 seaters and 125 seaters with noting in between? While Northwest is parking many of the DC-9's, they are not retiring all of them.

To suggest a retirement of that many mainline airplanes when the company has:

- 3 billion dollars in cash,
-49% of Midwest Express,
-a narrowbody floor (per our crappy contract),
-a pilot group that feels it has given waaay to much to begin with,
-36 new RJ's for Mesaba, and
-new EMB-170's for Compass arriving every month,

is ridiculous.

In light of the above facts, for you to think that Northwest pilots would have allowed the company to park ALL the DC-9's means you don't know us very well....

New K Now

Sailing,

Considering that the 9's represent the 100 seat market, if the 9's do get retired, what are they going to be replaced with? Basically I asking you to find out the earliest an airline can expect delivery of a brand new EMB-195 (try 50-75 of them). Or, do you think the company will just allow a gap in aircraft sizes to be between 70 seaters and 125 seaters with noting in between? While Northwest is parking many of the DC-9's, they are not retiring all of them.

To suggest a retirement of that many mainline airplanes when the company has:

- 3 billion dollars in cash,
-49% of Midwest Express,
-a narrowbody floor (per our crappy contract),
-a pilot group that feels it has given waaay to much to begin with,
-36 new RJ's for Mesaba, and
-new EMB-170's for Compass arriving every month,

is ridiculous.

In light of the above facts, for you to think that Northwest pilots would have allowed the company to park ALL the DC-9's means you don't know us very well....

New K Now


very well said!!!

Carl, Delta has more then enough RJ capacity to replace the nines over the next 3 years. They have a mix of CRJ-900's and E-170 on order. As you pointed out in your post NWA also has DC-9 replacement aircraft coming. In addition Delta has 737-700's coming that could be used in the some of the markets.
I heard all the same things you are saying from Delta pilots when the 737-200 were going away. No way Delta could do, They have to have a 100 seat aircraft ect.... They did and did it fast!!
George

The narrow body floor on your contract will be a important and critical issue. It should give some negotiating leverage to procure the replacement flying at the mainline. I understand the floor was to be set sometime around May. Has it been set and what is the floor verses your current number of aircraft. When NWA annouced the reduction down to 68 aircraft by the end of the year did that comply with the floor?

I am increasingly of the belief that it is not the right move for both airlines. I've listened to Gary Kelly, Bob Crandall, Gordon Bethune and other airline analysts, and they all express their fear of spending 1 Billion dollars on combining two companies from the cash coffers that should probably be carefully guarded in this environment. It's a lot of money to spend on painting airplanes and moving headquarters' etc. Long term, it is probably a good thing. But you don't get to live in the long term if you die in the short term.

Some awfully smart people are saying they would not do it at this time, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of their logic.

Carl
I have no dog in this hunt but I have to agree with the capt here and to spend that kind of money in this enviro is risky to say the least.
Haste makes waste so to say and as far as the 9,s are concerned they are all payed off yes ?So I figure they still save money because they have no payments on them just fuel and mx .
BTW carl how many whales do you guys own outright?
Be real crazy not to keep them after the merger especially if they are making money .
As for painting the a/c ,why not just put a small DAL logo on NWA a/c and vice versa ,pax really dont care what an a/c looks like outside so why even bother wasting the money on repainting said a/c .
Just my 3 cents .:cool:

I am increasingly of the belief that it is not the right move for both airlines. I've listened to Gary Kelly, Bob Crandall, Gordon Bethune and other airline analysts, and they all express their fear of spending 1 Billion dollars on combining two companies from the cash coffers that should probably be carefully guarded in this environment. It's a lot of money to spend on painting airplanes and moving headquarters' etc. Long term, it is probably a good thing. But you don't get to live in the long term if you die in the short term.

Some awfully smart people are saying they would not do it at this time, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of their logic.

Carl

Carl-

Who cares what these men think. None of them want to compete against a powerful airline. Heck Bethune was touting mergers just a few months ago. He represents a hedge fund that wanted a DAL/UAL deal.

Did he believe that there would be no costs or fuel would not go up?

Bethune is not a genius, I worked at CAL and had dinner with him. He is refreshing because he doesn't talk like a ceo, swears a lot, former Navy mechanic etc, but the guy running the show now, Kellner, was the brains behind the turnaround.

The DAL/NWA deal will eventually be good, Air France is a good airline and eventually may own the whole lot of us. At least if things begin to turn for the worst, not that they are not bad already, Air France may be willing to kick in a few bucks to protect the alliance.

They express fear about spending money on a merger that will create the worlds largest carrier and has very little overlap? Sounds like jealousy to me, sour grapes, etc:) When has a ceo had fear about spending other peoples money?

Stop listening to the analysts. If we ever fly together, we won't ask the FA's for there opinion, I know they can be very smart people too. Lets just go around the thunderstorm and get to the layover and have a cold one:)

Stop worrying............

Air France is a good airline and eventually may own the whole lot of us.

God help us... French wine is overrated, and I am not a big escargot fan...

Oh, and I like shaved legs and pits :D

Ciao!

Carl, Delta has more then enough RJ capacity to replace the nines over the next 3 years. They have a mix of CRJ-900's and E-170 on order.

Unless DALPA and NWALPA discards our current scope clause, DAL won't be able to FLY any of those aircraft without increasing the narrow body fleet on the mainline side. To do anything else is a violation of our scope.

As you pointed out in your post NWA also has DC-9 replacement aircraft coming.

I've never pointed that out in any of my posts because NWA has not made a decision on the DC-9 replacement aircraft yet.

Carl

The narrow body floor on your contract will be a important and critical issue. It should give some negotiating leverage to procure the replacement flying at the mainline. I understand the floor was to be set sometime around May. Has it been set and what is the floor verses your current number of aircraft. When NWA annouced the reduction down to 68 aircraft by the end of the year did that comply with the floor?

NWALPA would not allow NWA to be in violation of our scope clause for one single second. The membership would simply not allow it.

Carl

I have no dog in this hunt but I have to agree with the capt here and to spend that kind of money in this enviro is risky to say the least.
Haste makes waste so to say and as far as the 9,s are concerned they are all payed off yes ?So I figure they still save money because they have no payments on them just fuel and mx .

They don't save money, but their overall cost of operation is similar to other narrow bodies. The reason they are being parked is because they are paid off, not because they burn too much fuel. When we park the DC-9's, it's a total cost saving. If they were leased, we would still owe the lease payments which mitigates any cost savings due to their removal from service. While it is ironic that their "paid off" status makes them first on the list for parking, it also makes it a snap to return them to service at a moment's notice whenever additional capacity is needed. We've done that a number of times already.

BTW carl how many whales do you guys own outright?

To my knowledge, none. Every one is leased.

Be real crazy not to keep them after the merger especially if they are making money .
As for painting the a/c ,why not just put a small DAL logo on NWA a/c and vice versa ,pax really dont care what an a/c looks like outside so why even bother wasting the money on repainting said a/c .
Just my 3 cents .:cool:

I didn't mean to put such emphasis on paint jobs. That is probably the smallest of the corporate integration costs. Combining headquarters and severance packages for managers are the real costs, and that is the worry. Because none of that brings additional revenue to the new company. If you're going to burn cash in this environment, it should be on assets that will bring in revenue.

Carl

Carl-

Who cares what these men think. None of them want to compete against a powerful airline. Heck Bethune was touting mergers just a few months ago. He represents a hedge fund that wanted a DAL/UAL deal.

Really? I just saw Bethune on CNBC and they ALWAYS mention when a guest has that kind of potential conflict of interest relationship - yet nobody mentioned that. What is your source for that assertion?

Did he believe that there would be no costs or fuel would not go up?

Bethune is not a genius, I worked at CAL and had dinner with him. He is refreshing because he doesn't talk like a ceo, swears a lot, former Navy mechanic etc, but the guy running the show now, Kellner, was the brains behind the turnaround.

My CAL friends disagree with you completely. They all say Bethune WAS a genius. I'm sure he had other talented folks on his team, but he did a remarkable job after Lorenzo's disastrous tenure.

The DAL/NWA deal will eventually be good, Air France is a good airline and eventually may own the whole lot of us.

The word eventually insinuates the longer term. As I've said previously, you don't get to live in the long term if you die in the short term. That is the concern.

At least if things begin to turn for the worst, not that they are not bad already, Air France may be willing to kick in a few bucks to protect the alliance.

Stop listening to the analysts. If we ever fly together, we won't ask the FA's for there opinion, I know they can be very smart people too. Lets just go around the thunderstorm and get to the layover and have a cold one:)

Stop worrying............

If we ever fly together, we'll avoid thunderstorms and stay out of danger not because we "stopped worrying", but because we realistically look at the threats that we face and use our experience to avoid them.

Carl

Carl, When NWA retired 70 DC-9's over the last few years where did the flying go and what aircraft replaced them. Large RJ's like the E-175's you have on order for compass. That is the replacement I am referring to.

Oh, and I like shaved legs and pits :D

Ciao!


Oh that is just an urban myth that the French don't shave there legs. Have you never watched the Tour De France? All the riders shave there legs.

Oh that is just an urban myth that the French don't shave there legs. Have you never watched the Tour De France? All the riders shave there legs.

Is it that they're shaved, or do steroids make your hair fall out?:confused:

Carl,

Bethune was hired as an advisor to Pardus management....a hedge fund (currently frozen) that has large investments in DAL and UAL. He (Bethune) was trying to get all of merger stuff moving last fall. Check "The Google" and I'm sure you'll find your answer.

I met Bethune several times at a previous carrier and if you ever get time read his book, "From Worst to First." Its basically the story of how he and Greg Brenneman (his #2 at the time...Kellner was #3 at best) turned CAL around. Bethune is a non-nonsense guy, but he's not a genius. What he is great at, however, is inspiring and motivating people...he gets the airline business and knows how to get out there and rally the troops. During the late 90s he was basically a rock star at CAL. He got people so excited about the $75 on-time bonus they might get in their paychecks, and made people so excited to work there, they'd forget they had industry lagging pay and benefits. He was also able to leverage his Boeing connections to modernize CAL's then-aging fleet. He did a great job....but he's no genius...when he got to CAL the bar was set so low, nobody could find it. When Gordon took over, they had 10 CEOs in 10 years...one even committed suicide. Anyway...just a little perspective.

I bet if some smart, motivated airline-oriented people got to take the reigns at UAL, things would drastically improve there. Hopefully its not too late.

Anyway...I've derailed this thread enough. But Bethune definitely works for Pardus, and he also worked for Delta for a bit a couple years ago as an advisor to Grinstein. He was back there hitting on a couple of our flight attendants. :)

These guys get around.

Carl,
He was back there hitting on a couple of our flight attendants. :)

These guys get around.

Wasn't on an international leg, was he? :p

If you're going to burn cash in this environment, it should be on assets that will bring in revenue.
I Agree and all the best to you folks over at NW ,compared to whats going on there ,its a bit boring here but then again who needs the added stress .just a bit too old for that lol.

Carl, When NWA retired 70 DC-9's over the last few years where did the flying go and what aircraft replaced them. Large RJ's like the E-175's you have on order for compass. That is the replacement I am referring to.

Listen carefully sailing because this is getting dull. We have a scope clause at NWA. That scope clause has restrictions on the number of RJ's without growth on the mainline narrow body side. Yes there have been DC-9's that have been parked. Yes DC-9's have returned from the parking lot. Some of those DC-9's were replaced by RJ's, but some were replaced by mainline narrow bodies because of our scope clause. Your attempt to paint all DC-9 retirements as having been replaced by RJ's is simply not true. If you want to keep spouting that, it's your right. But I'm done trying to set the record straight with you on this as facts don't seem to matter to you.

Carl

I met Bethune several times at a previous carrier and if you ever get time read his book, "From Worst to First." Its basically the story of how he and Greg Brenneman (his #2 at the time...Kellner was #3 at best) turned CAL around. Bethune is a non-nonsense guy, but he's not a genius. What he is great at, however, is inspiring and motivating people...he gets the airline business and knows how to get out there and rally the troops. During the late 90s he was basically a rock star at CAL. He got people so excited about the $75 on-time bonus they might get in their paychecks, and made people so excited to work there, they'd forget they had industry lagging pay and benefits. He was also able to leverage his Boeing connections to modernize CAL's then-aging fleet. He did a great job....but he's no genius...when he got to CAL the bar was set so low, nobody could find it. When Gordon took over, they had 10 CEOs in 10 years...one even committed suicide. Anyway...just a little perspective.

OK, let's assume for the sake of argument that Bethune is not a genius. You assert that the real genius' are Kellner and Brenneman. Let's accept that as well. Then why is it that these current genius' walked away from a merger stating (among other things) that now is not the right time to waste cash on consolidation costs? They preferred a strategic alliance with UAL, but ultimately couldn't even make that deal work.

Again, there are a lot of smart people taking a pass on traditional mergers in this environment. The fact that we are pursuing this strategy full speed ahead is troubling. It's a hell of a gamble. We could be big winners, or it could destroy both airlines.

Carl

Listen carefully sailing because this is getting dull. We have a scope clause at NWA. That scope clause has restrictions on the number of RJ's without growth on the mainline narrow body side. Yes there have been DC-9's that have been parked. Yes DC-9's have returned from the parking lot. Some of those DC-9's were replaced by RJ's, but some were replaced by mainline narrow bodies because of our scope clause. Your attempt to paint all DC-9 retirements as having been replaced by RJ's is simply not true. If you want to keep spouting that, it's your right. But I'm done trying to set the record straight with you on this as facts don't seem to matter to you.

Carl

I CANT BEGIN TO TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE TOLD PEOPLE THAT ON HERE AND FOR SOME REASON THEY SEEM TO EASILY FORGET IT. I HOPE YOU GET IT ACROSS BECAUSE I TO GET TIRED OF REPEATING IT!!!!

I CANT BEGIN TO TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE TOLD PEOPLE THAT ON HERE AND FOR SOME REASON THEY SEEM TO EASILY FORGET IT. I HOPE YOU GET IT ACROSS BECAUSE I TO GET TIRED OF REPEATING IT!!!!


Carl, I have asked several times and no one will answer a simple question. I know about your scope clause. I don't know how it works or what the limits are. When is the narrow body floor set and what will that limit be on airframes. How many total airframes do you have now?

I get it Carl.. and I am really hoping it is one of the cherry picked items in the joint contract... That and the commuting policy. What other items would ya'll say are worth keeping? I'm not saying our contract is perfect, but there are a few things I would want to keep from our side, as I am sure there are things you want to keepon yours... what are they?

I get it Carl.. and I am really hoping it is one of the cherry picked items in the joint contract... That and the commuting policy. What other items would ya'll say are worth keeping? I'm not saying our contract is perfect, but there are a few things I would want to keep from our side, as I am sure there are things you want to keepon yours... what are they?

Tsquare,

Great question....I'm actually thinking of starting a thread called something like "practical things" for all of us NWA guys. As I see it just about everything about my professional life will change, from where my wife drops me off for work to how I bid to how and when I do a check list. Lots of questions on my side for sure!

Some things just off the top of my head right now I can think of are:

Family Leave - I have elderly parents, and it's good to give my sister a break now and then.

NASAP - we all mess up every now and then..........10 years on the jet mean nothing when your tired.

Other work rule stuff I'd love to just sit and compare. I know our reserve guys want to keep our 75 hour rule.

Ferd

I CANT BEGIN TO TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE TOLD PEOPLE THAT ON HERE AND FOR SOME REASON THEY SEEM TO EASILY FORGET IT. I HOPE YOU GET IT ACROSS BECAUSE I TO GET TIRED OF REPEATING IT!!!!

Because for some people (like sailingfun) the basis of their argument as to why NWA pilots should gratefully and quickly accept the offer of a ratioed SLI is due to the DC-9's all being replaced by RJ's. When you point out our scope clause, their argument unravels - so they just ignore the scope clause. They don't forget it, they just ignore it out of necessity for the continuation of their position.

Carl

Carl, I have asked several times and no one will answer a simple question. I know about your scope clause. I don't know how it works or what the limits are. When is the narrow body floor set and what will that limit be on airframes. How many total airframes do you have now?

If you don't know anything about it, then why do you say these things:

"It would be great if they kept them. Sadly if you run even basic fuel numbers reality shows up in a hurry. The question for the union is how do we capture the follow on flying as the nines go away at the mainline. I am sure management wants that flying at Compass or another connection carrier. We have to fight to secure the replacement flying at the mainline. Its one of the reasons that a joint contract is going to take longer then most think!"

When you make these kinds of comments, shouldn't you know something about what you assert?

Carl

I get it Carl.. and I am really hoping it is one of the cherry picked items in the joint contract... That and the commuting policy. What other items would ya'll say are worth keeping? I'm not saying our contract is perfect, but there are a few things I would want to keep from our side, as I am sure there are things you want to keepon yours... what are they?

Those are great questions. I wish I knew more about Delta's contract. Our scope clause isn't what it used to be, but it still holds the company back from replacing too much of our flying with RJ's, so I wouldn't want that degraded at all. I have over 1,000 hours of sick leave, and I would sure like to keep that. We are paid the greater of scheduled block time versus actual block time on every leg. Reserve guarantee is 75 hours, and we have a half-assed long call reserve policy that I guess is better than nothing. The commuting policy is a good one and it works. In all the years we've had it, I've only had to use it once - but it is great to know its there.

You guys may already have stuff that is a lot better than this, but I would like to see these things retained or improved.

Carl

Carl, I have asked several times and no one will answer a simple question. I know about your scope clause. I don't know how it works or what the limits are. When is the narrow body floor set and what will that limit be on airframes. How many total airframes do you have now?

The narrow body floor establishes how many 76 seat RJ's that Northwest can get. If the number of narrow bodies is at or below the floor then Northwest can operate 55 76 seat jets or 90 as long as Compass stays in operation. If they exceed the narrow body floor then there is a one for one growth. There are also restrictions based on buying 100 seat jets.

Since Northwest will almost certainly be below the floor in the future and since Compass is still in operation, then the limit is 90. This limit only applies to operations in which Northwest has a direct fee for departure relationship. There are no limits on 76 seaters flown through a code share.

Being able to book a jumpseat 10 1/2 days in advance is a huge perk. Does Delta have this?

Have,nt been folowing this to close but I,m curious if you folks at NWA and DAL have done the ole I,ll show you mine if you show me yours in regards to pilots contracts?That way they are an open book for both sides and no one gets advantage over the other one , or perhaps i missed this along the way .


You can teach monkeys to fly !

Being able to book a jumpseat 10 1/2 days in advance is a huge perk. Does Delta have this?

Not as good as NWA, but not bad.

For those commuting TO work, you can book it 3 1/2 days in advance, not counting the day of travel. Example: your trip departs Friday, you can book the JS to work NET 1200 on Mon.

For those commuting FROM work, the window opens 2 1/2 days in advance. Same example, but you are finishing a trip on Fri. You can book the return jumpseat at NET 1200 on Tues.

For "personal" travel (i.e. not commuting to or from work) the window opens 1 1/2 days prior--you can figure it out.

The JS is booked strictly via a first-come first-served basis. Once you have it booked it can not be taken by a senior guy.

Still, sounds like NWA's JS might be better. What are the particulars?

We can book the JS 10 1/2 days in advance in all cases(going to/from work or personal travel). First come first served. Once you have it you cannot be bumped by a senior pilot.

Tsquare,

Other work rule stuff I'd love to just sit and compare. I know our reserve guys want to keep our 75 hour rule.



Ferd, I'm a NWA Rsv guy...I'd rather have the DAL 70 hr rsv....why? It's manning dude. 70 hr rsv requires more pilots than 75 hrs or 80 hrs. I'll wager that a DAL rsv pilot flys more than 70 hrs a month anyway:cool:

Ferd, I'm a NWA Rsv guy...I'd rather have the DAL 70 hr rsv....why? It's manning dude. 70 hr rsv requires more pilots than 75 hrs or 80 hrs. I'll wager that a DAL rsv pilot flys more than 70 hrs a month anyway:cool:

It actually depends on the category and the time of year. On the 767-ER, flying is plentiful in the summer, but really slow in the winter when we throttle back to less than daily service in some markets. (I'm speaking as a NY based captain... we are short FOs in the category, so I think tthey are always busy).

Hope this helps..

Steve

It actually depends on the category and the time of year. On the 767-ER, flying is plentiful in the summer, but really slow in the winter when we throttle back to less than daily service in some markets. (I'm speaking as a NY based captain... we are short FOs in the category, so I think tthey are always busy).

Hope this helps..

Steve

Don't you guys have partial reserve lines too, with some trips built in on them?

Don't you guys have partial reserve lines too, with some trips built in on them?

We did a long time ago (and it was great) but those went away with C2K. You either get a full month regular line or full month reserve. The only exception is when you finish training in a new category. You then have the option of taking a blank regular line (with no pay guarantee) for the remainder of the month after OE, regardless of your seniority in category. Then you can try and pick up time. Depending on the category and time of year that can be a good or bad thing. But that is contractual minutiae.

I can tell you this. In the last three months I have not credited over 40 hrs per month on reserve. You need to know how to play the system. I move off days a few days out. That way I am never at the top of the pile. I enjoy sitting at home as some guys enjoy being on the road. You can do both with this current system.

We can book the JS 10 1/2 days in advance in all cases(going to/from work or personal travel). First come first served. Once you have it you cannot be bumped by a senior pilot.

Is there any good deal for reserve pilots that get called out on a long call situation. For line holders, the 10.5 day reservation thing is awsome.. especially if you can follow it up with a PS seat if things go south. But what about the long call reserve guy sitting home, and he gets called out to fly tomorrow?:confused:

Ferd, I'm a NWA Rsv guy...I'd rather have the DAL 70 hr rsv....why? It's manning dude. 70 hr rsv requires more pilots than 75 hrs or 80 hrs. I'll wager that a DAL rsv pilot flys more than 70 hrs a month anyway:cool:

Good point......I'd offer something witty here, but my 6 maybe 8 weeks of sitting reserve in 13 years give me nothing :D. Needless to say, I will strongly support whatever the reserve guys say is best for them.

It's true what the old guys told me when I was a kid, commuting costs ya one seat up.

Ferd

It's true what the old guys told me when I was a kid, commuting costs ya one seat up.

Ferd

I always thought Christmas cost you one seat up.

Christmas, a.k.a. the $20,000 holiday.

Is there any good deal for reserve pilots that get called out on a long call situation. For line holders, the 10.5 day reservation thing is awsome.. especially if you can follow it up with a PS seat if things go south. But what about the long call reserve guy sitting home, and he gets called out to fly tomorrow?:confused:


That's why there is a risk w/sitting long call reserve. I can say that I don't see the jumpseat locked up more than a couple days out though. Usually there is always a way to get to work. My last resort is driving....which wouldn't be that bad if gas was cheaper.

Some things just off the top of my head right now I can think of are:

Family Leave - I have elderly parents, and it's good to give my sister a break now and then.

NASAP - we all mess up every now and then..........10 years on the jet mean nothing when your tired.

Other work rule stuff I'd love to just sit and compare. I know our reserve guys want to keep our 75 hour rule.

Ferd


Heyas Ferd and others,

GREAT thread. Nice to get past the he said/she said...

The 10.5 day JS really is NICE, and it lets you sleep at night knowing you'll get to work. At NWA, we can book it via automated phone (VRS) or the internet. There's even a 3rd party program that lets you book it unattended. VERY slick.

The "call in honest" helps also. Basically, you need a primary and a backup. If your back up is NWA, and if it looks like you're not going to get on, you make a call, and BINGO, you're on. No questions asked. The caveot is that if they have reserve coverage for your trip, they MAY say "well get here when you can, and you can pick up the rest of your trip" with no pay protection. No biggie, and worth the cost.

NASAP and FOQA. Simply THE most important two safety programs in the last 15 years. NASAP rocks, and it's not even fair comparing it to a NASA form.

I'm all for working less, so 70 hour reserve is good for me, as long as the days off are increased commensurate with the reduced guarantee. If you want more, sign up for more.

I'd like to retain the NWA APA system. It provides flexibility to move around if you want, rather than 3-4 times a year. Getting rid of the block-reserve positions may negate that somewhat.

The AtlasBid (our PBS) is pretty slick. Bids in by the 12th, and awards out by the 16th. No complaints there at all. Since we fixed the open time mess, it has gone back to being one of the best systems around.

Nu

That's why there is a risk w/sitting long call reserve. I can say that I don't see the jumpseat locked up more than a couple days out though. Usually there is always a way to get to work. My last resort is driving....which wouldn't be that bad if gas was cheaper.

Kind of a hike from Florida to NY :eek::(

Heyas Ferd and others,

GREAT thread. Nice to get past the he said/she said...

The 10.5 day JS really is NICE, and it lets you sleep at night knowing you'll get to work. At NWA, we can book it via automated phone (VRS) or the internet. There's even a 3rd party program that lets you book it unattended. VERY slick.

The "call in honest" helps also. Basically, you need a primary and a backup. If your back up is NWA, and if it looks like you're not going to get on, you make a call, and BINGO, you're on. No questions asked. The caveot is that if they have reserve coverage for your trip, they MAY say "well get here when you can, and you can pick up the rest of your trip" with no pay protection. No biggie, and worth the cost.

NASAP and FOQA. Simply THE most important two safety programs in the last 15 years. NASAP rocks, and it's not even fair comparing it to a NASA form.

I'm all for working less, so 70 hour reserve is good for me, as long as the days off are increased commensurate with the reduced guarantee. If you want more, sign up for more.

I'd like to retain the NWA APA system. It provides flexibility to move around if you want, rather than 3-4 times a year. Getting rid of the block-reserve positions may negate that somewhat.

The AtlasBid (our PBS) is pretty slick. Bids in by the 12th, and awards out by the 16th. No complaints there at all. Since we fixed the open time mess, it has gone back to being one of the best systems around.

Nu

If you have to call in honest, do there have to be seats available on the flight for you to get PS, or will they bump a revenue pax?

Our PBS is essentially the second iteration that we have been thru here at DAL. We learned a lot on the first one which was produced by AdOpt.. and that one sucked big beach balls.. This one is really good though. It will be interesting to cherry pick the two of these also. We have similar timelines.. in on 12 and usually out by the 15th or 16th +/-.

I'm new to reserve for the first time in 15 years, and the system has changed a lot here since then. The thing I most desperately want to see is a reserve system that recognizes seniority with respect to picking up trips, and also a short call system that has a logic. Currently the scheduler CAN place you on 8 SC days/month, and it is all at his/her whim. You can sit SC with only 1 day of availability, and they will not release you until (typically) the last commuter flight home has left for the day (Murphy's law). I want that changed too.

How about vacations? Does PBS place them on your line PRIOR to awarding your sched? This is essentially what ours does, so it can be good if you want to fly alot in a vacation month (mo money) or bad if you prefer mo time off... Catch 22 I guess.

Anybody got any other stuff that might be interesting?

How about vacations? Does PBS place them on your line PRIOR to awarding your sched? This is essentially what ours does, so it can be good if you want to fly alot in a vacation month (mo money) or bad if you prefer mo time off... Catch 22 I guess.

Anybody got any other stuff that might be interesting?

Our PBS puts EVERYTHING on your schedule (dates for checkride, vacation, etc) that is planned for the month BEFORE you put your bid in for the month. Then you build your schedule around your planned activites.

EX: If someone has vacation 7-14 Jul, those dates will reflect Vac and wont award a trip during those dates. BUT, we can also "shift" our vacation +/- 3 days. So, if a trip I really wanted started on the 13th, I could "shift" my vacation -2 days so it would now be Jul 5-12.

Clear as mud?

If you have to call in honest, do there have to be seats available on the flight for you to get PS, or will they bump a revenue pax?



Tsquare,

Yes, if you call in honest they will bump a paying passenger. The logic is the bumped passenger costs $ and the misconnected passengers or cancelled flight will cost $$$$ if you can't get to work on time. I've only called in honest twice over the years, and one of those I was ok anyway (open seats).

It's a great stress reducer, hope we can keep it.

Ferd

]If you have to call in honest, do there have to be seats available on the flight for you to get PS, or will they bump a revenue pax?[/B]

Our PBS is essentially the second iteration that we have been thru here at DAL. We learned a lot on the first one which was produced by AdOpt.. and that one sucked big beach balls.. This one is really good though. It will be interesting to cherry pick the two of these also. We have similar timelines.. in on 12 and usually out by the 15th or 16th +/-.

I'm new to reserve for the first time in 15 years, and the system has changed a lot here since then. The thing I most desperately want to see is a reserve system that recognizes seniority with respect to picking up trips, and also a short call system that has a logic. Currently the scheduler CAN place you on 8 SC days/month, and it is all at his/her whim. You can sit SC with only 1 day of availability, and they will not release you until (typically) the last commuter flight home has left for the day (Murphy's law). I want that changed too.

How about vacations? Does PBS place them on your line PRIOR to awarding your sched? This is essentially what ours does, so it can be good if you want to fly alot in a vacation month (mo money) or bad if you prefer mo time off... Catch 22 I guess.

Anybody got any other stuff that might be interesting?

They will bump a revenue passenger.

Does NWA uses a raw score system to keep track of how much flying a reserve pilot has credited so far in a month? i.e. The lowest raw score guy will be chosen to fly a trip before the higher raw score? Can somebody explain your reserve system in a nutshell? LC/SC?

At DAL, we can look at the reserve availability list for the next day and see how the raw score stacked up with other reserves, and you can pretty much tell if you'll get to fly or sit home for one more day. Very transparent to both scheduler and pilots. I think it's pretty fair.

another question for you dal guys, how is your medical coverage? Do you use deductibles or co-pays? avg cost for a married couple and 2 young kids? thanks

Does NWA uses a raw score system to keep track of how much flying a reserve pilot has credited so far in a month? i.e. The lowest raw score guy will be chosen to fly a trip before the higher raw score? Can somebody explain your reserve system in a nutshell? LC/SC?

At DAL, we can look at the reserve availability list for the next day and see how the raw score stacked up with other reserves, and you can pretty much tell if you'll get to fly or sit home for one more day. Very transparent to both scheduler and pilots. I think it's pretty fair.

rvr,

I know the NWA reserve system here all too well and I am doing you a favor by NOT trying to explain it to you. Just be grateful with the knowledge that that asinine system will NEVER be transfered to the 'New Delta.' (It's that bad)

New K Now

Hallelujah! Finally, a productive and informative discussion on our merger!

hate so say it but ours is asinine too. Used to be a lot better. It works well for the company.
Unless a category is crazy short (ATL MD-88B) you will never come close to breaking guarantee. I like it because I live in base, but for those that want to fly, it does not work. They sit in a crash pad waiting to fly.
It works out to a week in the air and a week waiting for a call. (At least that has been my experience)

Hallelujah! Finally, a productive and informative discussion on our merger!

Couldnt agree any more!! :D

It works out to a week in the air and a week waiting for a call. (At least that has been my experience)

Even when you put in yellow slips?

Even when you put in yellow slips... I think for the junior guys, breaking guarantee is most likely to be achieved during summer months, in NY 7er, or atl 88, otherwise just plan to getting a second job to supplement your income during winters!

The only feasible solution is to keep lower your raw score by 15, and put green slip continuously, maybe you'll get used more than normal. Otherwise, plan on having at least 5-6 extra days off each month:)

Heyas,

Yes, they WILL bump a paying passenger if they do not have reserve coverage...which is pretty much always.

Reserve short call is tiered...if given more than 2:30, you are expected to make report time for the trip. If you are given 2:30-2:00 you are expected to make push time. Anything less than 2:00, and it's "do your best, and we'll pay for parking at the terminal" (if you ask).

You can bid for RAPs and a 12:00 hour long call.

Reserves are put into SILOs which are pretty complex. I'm not on reserve, so I have zero idea how it works.

Monthly bidding has a variable cap. It changes from month to month from 75 to 86 hours (88 if they flex) depending on the company needs. This acts as a sort of absorber for changes in flying. The minimum is 12:00 below that. You can bid 4 credit windows: MIN, which is within 3 hours of the minimum, MAX, which is within 4 hours of the max, and WIDE, which is anything inbetween, and NORM, which is within 7 hours of the max.

Vacations are hard windows that are bid the year before. If you want, you can slide your vacation window +/- three days at the time of bidding OR you can simply accept the credit as ANY and the system will build you a schedule with the vacation credit time factored in. Used in conjuction with the "AVOID WORK" command, you can practically change your vacation to anything else in the month.

Unless senior, our open time system stinks. It's not real-time, and all open time is worked BY HAND, by the third shift schedulers starting at midnight. There is no notification if you are denied. You have to call to find out why.

There is a trip adjustment period during the last few days of the month for the next month.

There is NO way to out and out drop a trip. You can replace a longer trip with a shorter trip from open flying (if there is any), but if you fall below 7:00 from the monthly max, you get put on "time available", which is basically reserve, the last two days of the month (unless you are already working those days), even if you were below that point already.

There is an EXTREMELY limited form of junior manning called the involuntary call out list. It is limited to the bottom 10 percent of the blockholders in that position (with a hard cap of 10). If they call you, tag, your it, but it pays 200%. You can do a voluntary call out, and it pays 150%

Anything (credit or pay) over 80 pays 150%

If you are not in a trip hour and they call, there is no obligation to accept a trip.

There are a ton of bizzare, nit picky rules for trip trades and required availability, that date back to the old NWA days. I'd be more than happy to be rid of them.

Nu

hate so say it but ours is asinine too. Used to be a lot better. It works well for the company.
Unless a category is crazy short (ATL MD-88B) you will never come close to breaking guarantee. I like it because I live in base, but for those that want to fly, it does not work. They sit in a crash pad waiting to fly.
It works out to a week in the air and a week waiting for a call. (At least that has been my experience)

Ok. I'll try to explain it then, but I bet you concur that our system is the ABSOLUTE worst in the industry.

NWA has us using the SILO system, which means you get placed in a SILO according to the amount of reserve days you have left.

So, lets say you begin the month and have to sit reserve for the first week. You get put into the 7 day SILO.

You have 3 days of reserve left? You get put into the 3 day SILO.

12 Days? 12 day SILO.

Each day that goes by that you dont get called you move down to the next SILO. The 7 day SILO pilot moves to the 6 day SILO if he is not called on the first day.

What does this SILO represent? Well, when open trips come up scheduling will match the trips to the SILO. Let's say a 3 day trip comes up, then it goes to whoever is #1 in the 3 day SILO. LEt's say a 5 day trip comes up, it goes to whoever is #1 in the 5 day SILO. If there is no one in the 5 day SILO then they go to the 6 day SILO and look. No one there? Then the 7 day SILO pilot get's it.

How you get placed into each SILO rarely matters because there seldom is enough people in them to matter. They say it is supposed to go by who has the most time, but it mostly goes by who finished up their last trip first. You can aslo bid to go high or low in the SILO, but like I said, it really dosen't matter.

We also have a long call system, which in my opinion sucks as well. Yes, it's great that you don't have to be in base for 12 hours if you get it, but you also get put at the top of the list for ANY trip that comes open, so you rarely get to stay home long. There are also a lot of "gotchas" that are built into the long call system. (Think 8pm call for a tip after your last flight to base has left for an 8 am show)

As you can see the SILO system is bad. You never really can gauge when you will be called for a trip. I mean really, who can tell if the next trip to come up for a sick call wil be a 1 or a 5 day. It's a little easier for the widebody guys, but it could be much easier.

No way do you want that do you? :rolleyes:

New K Now

Ok. I'll try to explain it then, but I bet you concur that our system is the ABSOLUTE worst in the industry.

NWA has us using the SILO system, which means you get placed in a SILO according to the amount of reserve days you have left.

newKnow,

Unfortunately, I understood your explanation perfectly..........Delta does essentially the same thing. We went to that a couple of contracts ago, and I hate it. I'd flown reserve most of my career, but that was the deal breaker. I don't intend to ever be on reserve again.

Pineapple

newKnow,

Unfortunately, I understood your explanation perfectly..........Delta does essentially the same thing. We went to that a couple of contracts ago, and I hate it. I'd flown reserve most of my career, but that was the deal breaker. I don't intend to ever be on reserve again.

Pineapple


WOW!! We are not the worst reserve system? Well, that is one thing we have to change. I heard AA has a great reserve system. I think they can refuse trips or something.

Good luck to us getting rid of the SILO reserve system.

Does NWA uses a raw score system to keep track of how much flying a reserve pilot has credited so far in a month? i.e. The lowest raw score guy will be chosen to fly a trip before the higher raw score? Can somebody explain your reserve system in a nutshell? LC/SC?

At DAL, we can look at the reserve availability list for the next day and see how the raw score stacked up with other reserves, and you can pretty much tell if you'll get to fly or sit home for one more day. Very transparent to both scheduler and pilots. I think it's pretty fair.

The CROC and RAW score thingy is retarded... it makes about as much sense as NFL quarterback ratings. I guess it's fair in a way, but it is still stupid.

Tsquare,

Yes, if you call in honest they will bump a paying passenger. The logic is the bumped passenger costs $ and the misconnected passengers or cancelled flight will cost $$$$ if you can't get to work on time. I've only called in honest twice over the years, and one of those I was ok anyway (open seats).

It's a great stress reducer, hope we can keep it.

Ferd

Cool... let's keep this provision... fer sure.:cool: And the sliding vacation concept is pretty wicked too. Thanks guys for all the gouge.

I agree with the frustrations regarding the NWA reserve system. You have to bid for long call on a day by day basis, so you might get long call one day and then short call the next, then long call, etc, etc. This means you have to commute back to base in the middle of a reserve stretch since you got a short call day in there. I think we should do it like they do over at CAL. I believe they bid for the entire month either short call or long call. Long call at CAL (I think) has a reduced guarantee however. This is the price you pay for not having to sit in a crashpad in base waiting for a call, well worth it for 5 hours or so of pay IMO. Real time trip trading would be nice as well, and an upgrade to the software we use to make it more user friendly. On the upside, the commuter policy at NWA is great, we should definitely keep that.

Does DAL pay for moving expenses? This is one thing that we have to keep in the contract, esp. for those wishing to move or change bases....

First. We use the RAW score system. Seniority does not matter. It all goes on how little you fly. It is a complicated formula that basically gives you two points for every hour of credit. The lower your score the higher up on the list you are. We also have a "SILO" type deal that ranks pilots in order of days. The difference is that Domestically we have avail days with the max of four. So a guy with six days of availability can be below a guy with four days. Slightly different weight system, but in essence the same thing.
You can put in a yellow slip, but on reserve it really doesn't do much for you. They will fly you right up to 70 hrs. A buddy of mine was six minutes shy of breaking guarantee last month and they did not fly him for the last six days. He had a yellow slip in, reduced his RAW score and had every type of green slip in. Point is that unless you are their last option you will sit. More than likely on Short Call. They cannot use you, but they are not going to let you off the hook either.
This happened to me last week. Flew a five day with 32 hrs of credit and 26 hrs of block. On day six I was on short call.
We do not bid on short call. It is up to the schedules to decided who gets it and who does not. You can get up to eight periods in a month. I normally have four to six. Some months I get all eight.

On the moving deal. We get paid moving up to a certain weight. (Do not remember, but I think it is 20K lbs) You only get this if you are voluntary displaced or within six months of a new base opening. This changed with our pre bankruptcy concessions.

Really? I just saw Bethune on CNBC and they ALWAYS mention when a guest has that kind of potential conflict of interest relationship - yet nobody mentioned that. What is your source for that assertion?



My CAL friends disagree with you completely. They all say Bethune WAS a genius. I'm sure he had other talented folks on his team, but he did a remarkable job after Lorenzo's disastrous tenure.



The word eventually insinuates the longer term. As I've said previously, you don't get to live in the long term if you die in the short term. That is the concern.



If we ever fly together, we'll avoid thunderstorms and stay out of danger not because we "stopped worrying", but because we realistically look at the threats that we face and use our experience to avoid them.

Carl

Carl-

I don't get on this board much, but your lack of basic knowledge that Bethune represents a hedge fund ( CNBC DIDN"T TELL YOU! HA) that has a vested interest in UAL and DAL shows how misinformed and ignorant you are about the the statements you make.

I worked at CAL, I read his book, From Worst to First, had dinner with him and still have many friends that work at CAL, yet somehow I am misinformed. You say I am misinformed because CNBC never mentioned his connection with Pardus, unbelievable!

You seem to want to listen to "analysts" and these genius CEO's who say DAL should not merge because____________! I have informed myself through my MEC, Roadshows and have listened to independent E&FA and believe the acquisition of NWA (YES I SAID ACQUISITION) is good for DAL.

UAL is culling its fleet and parking.....gasp..... 747's. The DC9's will be gone too, they have to go in this environment. It is being mentioned more regularly now by VP's in the pilots lounge during their visits.

Carl, you have been whining and B$*ching the whole time on this thread. You are a 747 captain and feel you are being slighted in your career. I certainly don't feel for you, no one wants to take a thing from you, no loss of seniority, no displacement from your seat, a pay raise, a stronger company with an envious international reach, and you are upset.

No Carl, Kellner (CAL) walked away from UAL beacuse UAL is not a good "fit" ,but so did DAL. Kelly at SWA is running a domestic carrier with not one international route. Yet somehow these oh so smart men are saying merging is a bad idea. There are no other options for them, this is the best combination plain and simple, not all mergers make good combinations.

The Asian Pacific route structure NWA services is not being fully realized. The combination between DAL and NWA will allow more revenue to be captured. DAL and Air France are the founding members of the Skyteam alliance. Air France is a good partner and has tacitly approved this merger and was/is willing to invest in this endeavor to see it succeed.

So who is right Carl? Your CNBC analysts, G. Buthune, Kelly and Kellner or the individuals ( DAL/NWA and Air France) who have been looking at the internal analysis?

I take it back about flying with you, you're a drag and will never see good in anything; all the while you sit at the pinnacle of your career flying your 747 looking down at everyone else.

As an aside, are you leaving at 60?

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post

Really? I just saw Bethune on CNBC and they ALWAYS mention when a guest has that kind of potential conflict of interest relationship - yet nobody mentioned that. What is your source for that assertion?

Oh, I don't know Carl, I just make stuff up. You really have very little credibility Carl.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/18/bloomberg/bxair.php

Did you say "ALWAYS".................

Carl wrote:

I am increasingly of the belief that it is not the right move for both airlines. I've listened to Gary Kelly, Bob Crandall, Gordon Bethune and other airline analysts, and they all express their fear of spending 1 Billion dollars on combining two companies from the cash coffers that should probably be carefully guarded in this environment. It's a lot of money to spend on painting airplanes and moving headquarters' etc. Long term, it is probably a good thing. But you don't get to live in the long term if you die in the short term.

Some awfully smart people are saying they would not do it at this time, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of their logic.

Carl

"Combining the two is a "more civilized" approach than other options because there is "very little overlap" between routes and hubs, Bethune said. That would allow United and Delta to gain from expansion with less of an impact on their work forces, he said."

source:http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/18/bloomberg/bxair.php

Hey Carl, this was just a little over six months ago. Sounds a lot like the NWA/DAL deal. He sure is awfully smart!

Well said, Hiflyer.
To build on your "full disclosure" point regarding Bethune, I'm beginning to suspect Carl is not legitimate.

Perhaps he is a plant from the NALPA fringe, trying to muddy the waters and stir up trouble in an effort to distract NWA pilots from the lack of foresight on the part of their MEC.

As most pilots from both groups have accepted this merger as inevitable and are trying to cooperate, Carl has grown increasingly negative and irrational.

In fact, I'm going so far as to label Carl a troll and add him to my ignore list.

Nice try Carl...

Does DAL pay for moving expenses? This is one thing that we have to keep in the contract, esp. for those wishing to move or change bases....

DAL only pays your move if you are cancelled out of a base- i.e. a base closing or you are bumped out of base due to a Mandatory Displacement. You are NOT paid for a move if you bid that base or category voluntarily.

There is an exception for "new categories"- i.e. when we recently created the NYC 777 category, the first six months was a paid-move window.

So, your next question might be would the respective airline's domiciles be considered "new" for each other? Well, going by Pan Am and Western precedents, the answer is no.

Soup

DAL only pays your move if you are cancelled out of a base- i.e. a base closing or you are bumped out of base due to a Mandatory Displacement. You are NOT paid for a move if you bid that base or category voluntarily.

There is an exception for "new categories"- i.e. when we recently created the NYC 777 category, the first six months was a paid-move window.

So, your next question might be would the respective airline's domiciles be considered "new" for each other? Well, going by Pan Am and Western precedents, the answer is no.

Soup


Then we need to keep the NWA moving benefits especially with the possible aircraft redeployment's to other bases. NWA will pay your move for a number of different reasons in some cases you might get a seat lock though.

NWA ALPA moving policy is: Bid a vacancy that you are awarded, you live 300 + miles from new base and you can get a paid move if you move within 150 miles from base. All new hires based in ANC or HNL get paid move. Plus .22 cents per mile per car only 2 cars allowed, meals and hotels. Up to 20,000 lbs and 60 days in storage. I think the moving is covered for a year after your new position. I hope we keep that...

Also Carl-


"If Northwest were to buy Delta, that would put Continental in a very bad position because of the size of the new company. The larger your network, the less vulnerable you are to incursions into your marketplace," Bethune said.

Well Carl, DAL bought NWA and as I eluded to before, these ceo's have a vested interest in their airline, not DAL and NWA. They will say whatever to put this deal in a negative light. Run the stock down with comments about the "risks". There are always risks, but with risks come rewards and this is a powerful combination.

Here is another such quote:

"But some rivals are skeptical that Delta's aggressive international expansion will work. Among the critics: Continental President Jeff Smisek, who panned Delta's global ambitions at a Bear Stearns Companies Inc. (BSC ) conference last May. "They are throwing a lot of capacity into the market. I predict they will lose their shirts on it," he told the gathered investors."

Source: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_49/b4012081.htm?chan=search


source: http://www.thedeal.com/dealscape/2008/02/bethune_air_canada_comment_on.php

The statement was made by Jeff Smisek of Continental Airlines while DAL was investing heavily in international expansion.

Here is what you stated:

"My CAL friends disagree with you completely. They all say Bethune WAS a genius. I'm sure he had other talented folks on his team, but he did a remarkable job after Lorenzo's disastrous tenure."

Really Carl, how smart was that statement, don't expand, DAL will lose their shirts! Well Carl, DAL did not lose their shirts and have been very successful.

So lets listen to these smart men and do what they say............

NWA's monthly schedule bidding program is great! I am not sure what DAL has but our works well and most guys can get pretty much what they want, even when junior. Now I am not saying if jumior you can have Christmas and such off, but you can pretty much get any non-holiday you want off if you bid correctly.

NWA's monthly schedule bidding program is great! I am not sure what DAL has but our works well and most guys can get pretty much what they want, even when junior. Now I am not saying if jumior you can have Christmas and such off, but you can pretty much get any non-holiday you want off if you bid correctly.



Not to mention you can trade days with yourself or someone else. I have done that almost every month so far. If i need a day off that i didnt get originally i can either trade it online with myself or call scheduling and they will do it. That has been very helpful.

NWA ALPA moving policy is: Bid a vacancy that you are awarded, you live 300 + miles from new base and you can get a paid move if you move within 150 miles from base. All new hires based in ANC or HNL get paid move. Plus .22 cents per mile per car only 2 cars allowed, meals and hotels. Up to 20,000 lbs and 60 days in storage. I think the moving is covered for a year after your new position. I hope we keep that...

I hope we keep it too. It was an item the company wanted way back to get us out of the commute mode. I had a commuting discussion with a chief pilot awhile back and when I got the old "commuting is a priviledge not a right" I reminded him that if they had to move us everytime they moved flying around (like the military) it would cost them millions. Commuters actually save them money....or at least I think so;).

On to another question........If your a MSP based pilot and get a new award that requires training, NWA assumes you live in MSP and doesn't cover your hotel during training. So, what commuters have to do is bid over to DTW, bid your new jet, and then get the award so you don't get stuck with the hotel bill. Is it the same at Delta? Do they assume an ATL guy lives there?

Ferd

Not to mention you can trade days with yourself or someone else. I have done that almost every month so far. If i need a day off that i didnt get originally i can either trade it online with myself or call scheduling and they will do it. That has been very helpful.

The biggest difference for me is that scheduling doesn't seem out to get you. Everyone that has had to deal with me has been more then helpful. Last month, I was on an early call window. I checked my sched. the night before and found out I was to DH to IND, my home, fly to MCO and back then DH to DTW and finish. I got permission to early DH and delay DH, so I went home the night before. The best part on my way to the airport, I get a call from scheduling, I hope you are still at home, your MCO flight canceled, so you can just go back home and you are off for the day!!! The person went as far to say that they were sorry they didn't get ahold of me earlier. Just one great person I have dealt with.-+

NWA's monthly schedule bidding program is great! I am not sure what DAL has but our works well and most guys can get pretty much what they want, even when junior. Now I am not saying if jumior you can have Christmas and such off, but you can pretty much get any non-holiday you want off if you bid correctly.

At DAL we use NavTech PBS, which if I'm not mistaken is the same as NWA uses. Ours might be a bit newer version with more preferences, but that's a good thing.

And I agree- it's really nice.

Soup

Not to mention you can trade days with yourself or someone else. I have done that almost every month so far. If i need a day off that i didnt get originally i can either trade it online with myself or call scheduling and they will do it. That has been very helpful.

Yep, we have that at DAL too- a pilot-to-pilot online Swap board. Alternately, you can put your trip out for pickup if you just want time off- i.e. you don't necessarily need to swap.

Note that that applies to regular lineholder trips- I'm not sure about swapping Reserve days (I haven't sat reserve in years, but maybe a DAL reserve could chime in?)

Soup

At DAL we use NavTech PBS, which if I'm not mistaken is the same as NWA uses. Ours might be a bit newer version with more preferences, but that's a good thing.

And I agree- it's really nice.

Soup

Next!!!!!! :D

The biggest difference for me is that scheduling doesn't seem out to get you. Everyone that has had to deal with me has been more then helpful. Last month, I was on an early call window. I checked my sched. the night before and found out I was to DH to IND, my home, fly to MCO and back then DH to DTW and finish. I got permission to early DH and delay DH, so I went home the night before. The best part on my way to the airport, I get a call from scheduling, I hope you are still at home, your MCO flight canceled, so you can just go back home and you are off for the day!!! The person went as far to say that they were sorry they didn't get ahold of me earlier. Just one great person I have dealt with.-+

Not like the regionals is it!:D Everyone in scheduling has been fantastic and they routinely go out of their way to help. I even got a gift certificate and a nice letter from the CP for helping out the other day. Not to mention a call from the scheduling supervisor thanking me. I have been very impressed thus far.

On to another question........If your a MSP based pilot and get a new award that requires training, NWA assumes you live in MSP and doesn't cover your hotel during training. So, what commuters have to do is bid over to DTW, bid your new jet, and then get the award so you don't get stuck with the hotel bill. Is it the same at Delta? Do they assume an ATL guy lives there?

Ferd

No. If you are an ATL based pilot, you are contractually allowed a hotel room for all training events. You just call the hotel person and tell em you need a room. You actually don't even have to be a commuter. Say a guy lives 1-2 hours away but has an "A" period sim (0530 show,) Instead of having to get up at 0200 or there abouts, he just gets a room at the training hotel and gets to sleep a little while longer.

Not like the regionals is it!:D Everyone in scheduling has been fantastic and they routinely go out of their way to help. I even got a gift certificate and a nice letter from the CP for helping out the other day. Not to mention a call from the scheduling supervisor thanking me. I have been very impressed thus far.

Apparently there are some NW schedulers hanging out with the DL schedulers this week in ATL, getting a feel for the ops. The intergration has begun.

I hope we keep it too. It was an item the company wanted way back to get us out of the commute mode. I had a commuting discussion with a chief pilot awhile back and when I got the old "commuting is a priviledge not a right" I reminded him that if they had to move us everytime they moved flying around (like the military) it would cost them millions. Commuters actually save them money....or at least I think so;).

Well, I agree with you in theory, but alas, here at Delta, we've proven to our management time and again that they can move flying anywhere they want, and enough pilots will bid it voluntarily- and hence not cost Delta a paid move (with exception of new categories). Our own worst enemies it seems...

On to another question........If your a MSP based pilot and get a new award that requires training, NWA assumes you live in MSP and doesn't cover your hotel during training. So, what commuters have to do is bid over to DTW, bid your new jet, and then get the award so you don't get stuck with the hotel bill. Is it the same at Delta? Do they assume an ATL guy lives there?

At DAL you get a hotel for training regardless of your domicile. In other words, you could be an ATL 737 pilot, and bid ATL 767, you would still get a paid hotel if you request it. Only exception is for recurrent training, which does not get you a hotel if you are ATL based already (other bases of course get hotel for recurrent training in ATL).

Soup

Only exception is for recurrent training, which does not get you a hotel if you are ATL based already (other bases of course get hotel for recurrent training in ATL).

Soup

You sure about that? I could be wrong, (to lazy to go find my contract copy,) but I just had recurrent and was asked if I needed a room when I called to find out why they forgot to schedule me. I'm ATL based too.

You sure about that? I could be wrong, (to lazy to go find my contract copy,) but I just had recurrent and was asked if I needed a room when I called to find out why they forgot to schedule me. I'm ATL based too.

Pretty sure.

Looking at 5.E.1.b
1. The Company will provide adequate and comfortable single occupancy lodging for a
pilot who is...
b. at his base, when undergoing qualification training (including the night prior to the first day of training, but not including the night of the last day of training) provided he submits a request for such lodging to Flight Training Planning not later than seven days before the date of the initial line awards for the bid period in which the training is scheduled or the date of notification of his scheduled training, whichever is later...

Operative term being "qualification training". i.e. Initial, Requal, or Transition. They have always used those to distinguish them from recurrent or "continuing qual".

But, I could be wrong on this, so anyone with recent gouge?

Soup

Pretty sure.

Looking at 5.E.1.b
1. The Company will provide adequate and comfortable single occupancy lodging for a
pilot who is...
b. at his base, when undergoing qualification training (including the night prior to the first day of training, but not including the night of the last day of training) provided he submits a request for such lodging to Flight Training Planning not later than seven days before the date of the initial line awards for the bid period in which the training is scheduled or the date of notification of his scheduled training, whichever is later...

Operative term being "qualification training". i.e. Initial, Requal, or Transition. They have always used those to distinguish them from recurrent or "continuing qual".

But, I could be wrong on this, so anyone with recent gouge?

Soup

Wow!! That is great......

In the mean time, guess I'll bid over to DTW to get ready for -400 FO school, what is it they say 'bout time'n. But, no more Saipan for me I guess:(

Ferd

Wow!! That is great......

In the mean time, guess I'll bid over to DTW to get ready for -400 FO school, what is it they say 'bout time'n. But, no more Saipan for me I guess:(

Ferd

NOSAIPANFORYOU!

NEXT!

Soup :D

NOSAIPANFORYOU!

NEXT!

Soup :D

Noooooooooooooooo pleasssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeee I can beggggg!

Yup, going to miss giving the bad boy tour;)

Ferd

Noooooooooooooooo pleasssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeee I can beggggg!

Yup, going to miss giving the bad boy tour;)

Ferd

So no Saipan, but now you have Manila!!!! You can get into enough trouble there, bad boy. :D

So no Saipan, but now you have Manila!!!! You can get into enough trouble there, bad boy. :D

hehehehehehehehhe <---------dirty old man laugh :eek:

You sure about that? I could be wrong, (to lazy to go find my contract copy,) but I just had recurrent and was asked if I needed a room when I called to find out why they forgot to schedule me. I'm ATL based too.

If you are based where you have recurrent, you do NOT get a hotel. You DO get a hotel for qualification training, even if you do the training where you are based (i.e. 99% of the time ATL).

Either the planner made an error, or perhaps you were one of the guys going to DEN for recurrent?

BTW, for all the NWA guys, we used to not have the provision of getting a hotel room for qualification training, so a lot of ATL commuters would have to play the same game--for example bid CVG on an Advance Entitlement (the term we use for an upgrade bid to a different plane or base), then on the next AE bid back to ATL. That way you could get a paid hotel for training...or if you didn't play that game you had a crappy crashpad and/or serious $$ outlays if you paid for the hotel yourself.

Getting the paid hotel for in-base qualification training was one of the best things we ever negotiated.

Getting the paid hotel for in-base qualification training was one of the best things we ever negotiated.

Heck yes- it almost offsets our 42% paycuts and loss of our pensions! :(

Off to my second job...

Soup

Apparently there are some NW schedulers hanging out with the DL schedulers this week in ATL, getting a feel for the ops. The intergration has begun.

Heyas,

I had heard that there are a TON more NWA schedulers than there are DAL, simply because we still do a lot of manual work for scheduling, and our schedulers handle a LOT of ancillary duties, like working open time and swap requests. There are also crew coordinator positions, which handle crews during trip hours.

So a question for you DAL guys...how automated is "interaction" with scheduling?

We have a VRS (phone) based system that lets you handle almost all scheduling chores, but it can be a PITA to use for SOME things, like to listen to open time (imagine someone READING you the open time). It's pretty nice, though, to be able to listen to your next months schedule or listen to the SILO list without using a computer.

The system will automatically call you with any schedule changes. You can set it up for up to 4 numbers (you can even set it to block out certain hours, like rest time), plus email and a text message number.

We also have access (from home, via the internet) for the same system we have at work. It's kind of an old interface, but there's a lot you can do with it.

If we call in sick, we actually have to call and talk to a scheduler. I know some places you can just call in with your PIN and be done with it.

Nu

About the same here. We have an automated system that will take you about anywhere you need to go. From Scheduling to training, to the CPO. It works fairly well, but with everything there are issues. I use it a lot to acknowledge my trips. I have not talked to a scheduler unless I have made the call.
The only exception was a reroute last weeks. I got a call in the hotel room. He was just being nice, and giving me notice so that someone could drop off more clothes in ATL if I needed them.
We are slated to change from E-crew to I-Crew later this year. What we have now is an internet application and take a ton of time to load up. I-crew is to be a web page where as it does not need some of the application software. (It may be a little different but that is how an IT guy explained it to me)
We really have about the same schedule, except Open Time, Swaps, Personal Drops etc are taken care of by the computer. All the schedulers do is set min staffing levels and it does the rest. It can be good and bad.

We really have about the same schedule, except Open Time, Swaps, Personal Drops etc are taken care of by the computer. All the schedulers do is set min staffing levels and it does the rest. It can be good and bad.

Heyas ACL,

Yea, I know what you mean. Sometimes the schedulers can "massage" your open time request if it bails them out of another bad situation the computer might not see.

I had a deal like that a few months ago. Our book puts some restrictions on beginning/end of month swaps. It's a left over from the old transition period that was eliminated with the shift to PBS.

Anyway, a computer swap probably would have just denied it, but they had a BUNCH of open trips on the day I was trying to swap into, and they approved it because, big picture wise, it made things better.

Nu

[quote=NuGuy;397750]Heyas,


So a question for you DAL guys...how automated is "interaction" with scheduling?

Remember that movie "2001 - A space Odyssey?" Ever wonder what that computer "HAL" has been up to post 2001? He now runs scheduling at DAL.
:) Scoop

HAL really does not like it when "human" schedulers intervene, and I for one, would not want to get on his bad side.

Heyas ACL,

Yea, I know what you mean. Sometimes the schedulers can "massage" your open time request if it bails them out of another bad situation the computer might not see.

I had a deal like that a few months ago. Our book puts some restrictions on beginning/end of month swaps. It's a left over from the old transition period that was eliminated with the shift to PBS.

Anyway, a computer swap probably would have just denied it, but they had a BUNCH of open trips on the day I was trying to swap into, and they approved it because, big picture wise, it made things better.

Nu

We used to have this type of situation going on all the time at Delta. The problem with it however is that in general such deals violate the contract and while it might benefit you and the company it could be hurting another pilot. The Delta computer system is programed to honor the contract. It works very well. If a scheduler manually does something the automated system won't do usually it is a contractual violation. Years ago the pilots never even knew that type of thing happened as there was no real way to check. With the computer systems in place at Delta today pilots can monitor most of the steps in trip coverage. The pilot denied a trip via a deal with a scheduler by another pilot will be quick to file a grievance since the process is now open for all to view. Schedules knows this so they are very reluctant to do it. If a emergency in trip coverage is going on they will make deals however they then have to go back and pay the pilot who should have been awarded the flying.