Airline Pilot Forums

Now I know I can't base my life on the on the input from an internet message board and should really follow my dreams, but hear me out. :)

I grew up in an aviation family, with a father who did some flight training back in the '50s and then went on to be a machinist for UAL at SFO for almost 40 years. I used to walk through the maintenance bases with him at SFO back when security was lax, and have always had a passion for aviation. Somehow back when I was considering college, I guess I was under the impression that the only way into the pilots seat was via the military. Had I known otherwise I may have done some things differently.

Long story short, I have a four year engineering degree from the University of California at Santa Cruz, and currently work as an engineer for Cisco Systems here in San Jose, CA. I'm 28, make a salary in the low six figures, live pretty comfortably, but I'm really looking for change. And before you jump all over me, six figures doesn't get you much out here...I could never dream of buying a single family home on my income alone unless I could make it elsewhere.

In March 2007 I started working on a PPL at a local flying club mainly as a hobby, and with the hopes that it could eventually turn into a career at some point. I'm starting to really think that I'd like to ramp up my training efforts and take stab at a flying career more than I had originally anticipated.

My main questions are the following:

-For someone who is a quick learner, and already has a four year degree under their belt, how long (best and worst case) could it take to get hired with a regional, move to a major commercial or cargo, and make a decent above average wage? Am I talking 5 years after I earn all my ratings...10? :) Remember also that I'm more than happy to leave CA, so an above average wage is relative to wherever I'd be moving to.

-How does the living situation work when entering this career? When you start work for a regional, do you pretty much have to pack up and move wherever they dictate, or is it usually doable while staying put? Are there desirable places to live which would give the most options for both regionals, and transitioning to a major? Generally is it a safe bet to locate near one of the major hub airports, like DFW for example?

-Aside from breaking into the majors, what other paths can be taken that are financially lucrative, and not a dead-end? Does flying for a corporate outfit work out pretty well, or is it on par with flying for a regional? What are the ups (no-pun intended) and downs of working for a cargo carrier vs working for a commercial airline?

Basically I've done my reading and understand the ****storm I'll be stepping into for a period of my life, making under 1/5 what I currently do. I'm just trying to figure out whether the light at the end of the tunnel is worth it, and which direction I'd want to head.

Thanks so much in advance for any guidance you can provide!
--James

In all honesty it would probably take at least 10 years or longer to match your current salary if at all. You could conceivably get a commercial within a year if you have a private and work hard-unless you quit working and fly full time, but I would not recommend that. Get a cfi and ready for the regionals within another year or so and then at least 5 years to move on.
Its a tough time in the business right now So many companies went t/u recently and more furloughs on the way even from the big guys. Also a lot of competition from unemployed high-time pilots. What really helps you get hired is a friend in the right place.

Alot depends on if your married, do you have kids? Can you sell your house?How much can you, or are you willing to sacrific for your career? I started around your age and made it to a major so I dont think your to old. However I lived like a gypse and my life up untill 35 was no different then when I was in college. While all of my friends where living like adults with houses, wives, kids, and ect I was living in a dumpy old crash pad being transfered every 6 months and could only afford a POS 1986 honda.

If money, and or security makes you happy dont work in aviation. If you have a passion for flying, make the leap.

this will be an interesting thread.......

Rama is probably right...unless your fairy god mother comes down and grants you a wish you would be looking at at least 10 years... if ever .....of reaching parity in todays dollars..... you would need left seat or many years in the right seat on average to get there... and remember we are talking todays dollars.

If you arent married and have some cash put aside.... maybe..but that would only be after some soul searching....seriously. This business is not for the faint of heart and over the next 3-10 years the market will be flooded with thousands of guys with alot more experience. Even for those AT the regionals already it will be a difficult move to "greener" pastures......Good luck.

If you have to do it for a year to see what it's like, then do it. It'll cost you a lot of money, but maybe it's something you have to try. I guess some people, myself included, just have an insatiable desire to know how it feels being the one on the other side of the closed door with all those gauges. However, I also think that with your UC engineering degree and the money you're making now, you'll probably realize that the glamour of airline piloting is mostly illusion and end up changing careers again.
And I'd say it's probably 15 years before the stats say you should be making 100k+ again. Could be shorter, but it's just a gamble that you have no control over.

What did that old gentleman on the dock, say to Forrest Gump, when he found out Forrest bought the shrimpin' boat?

What about flying in the military? Not sure of the age cutoff. You could go active duty or fly reserves and keep your current job. Being single has it's advantages in the big picture, achieving your goal because it will be a financial sacrifice at first.

-For someone who is a quick learner, and already has a four year degree under their belt, how long (best and worst case) could it take to get hired with a regional, move to a major commercial or cargo, and make a decent above average wage? Am I talking 5 years after I earn all my ratings...10? :) Remember also that I'm more than happy to leave CA, so an above average wage is relative to wherever I'd be moving to.

It's impossible to put a time line on an aviation career. This business is so dynamic. Last year, when oil was still trading around $50/barrel, everyone thought we were entering another golden age in airline hiring. Look at the situation now. Also, right after 9/11 people thought it would be years before anyone would hire again and that a low-time pilot wouldn't have a chance with all the experienced people on the street. Well, regionals were hiring 2 years after 9/11 and thousands of low-time pilots have been hired by them since.

I'm a new hire at Delta. It took me 20 years to get this far. Why? Because of a recession in the early 90s, a temporary career change as a result of that, then 9/11. However, in my Delta class was a guy who had just turned 25, learned to fly after 9/11, was lucky enough to get hired at a regional with quick upgrades and will retire #1 at Delta. Just as I would have never thought back in 1987 when I started this career that it would have taken me this long to get where I am, I'm sure my classmate would never have thought back in 2002 that he'd be working for a major in 2008. It's all about timing.

Also keep in mind that I have many friends still at my old regional that have been there 8+ years, not for lack of trying to get out. A 4-year degree and some PIC time is not an automatic ticket to the majors.


-How does the living situation work when entering this career? When you start work for a regional, do you pretty much have to pack up and move wherever they dictate, or is it usually doable while staying put? Are there desirable places to live which would give the most options for both regionals, and transitioning to a major? Generally is it a safe bet to locate near one of the major hub airports, like DFW for example?

It depends on the regional. Many of the bigger ones allow you to commute because they operate schedules that are similar to the majors and have domiciles in large cities. Some of the smaller ones, like Colgan and Great Lakes, may have domiciles in smaller cities (ie. Roanoke, VA) and/or may fly nothing but day trips. This would make commuting virtually impossible.

Living in base certainly has its advantages. One thing to consider at the regional level, though, is that your flying is always going to done at the customer's whim, which means that bases come and go much more frequently than at the major level. It would not be unheard of for a regional to open a domicile in a large city only to have it get shut down a year or so later because its part of the flying has shifted to another part of the country.

The other thing too is that living in a hub city that's not yours can also bring its own difficulties as you are competing with tons of others commuting to and from work.


-Aside from breaking into the majors, what other paths can be taken that are financially lucrative, and not a dead-end? Does flying for a corporate outfit work out pretty well, or is it on par with flying for a regional? What are the ups (no-pun intended) and downs of working for a cargo carrier vs working for a commercial airline?

Some corporate jobs are great, some are not. It's impossible to answer. I'm sure the pilots for Cisco are pretty happy but that's because they work for a large, successful company. But what if you end up at a small company with a single Citation II? There's no job security there. Some are careers, others are stepping stones. I also think that corporate flying takes a specific mindset that not everyone has. I did a little bit of corporate flying and it just isn't for me. You, on the other hand, may love it.

A popular option these days is Netjets. I've had several friends from my regional go there as a career.

Cargo is hit and miss. I flew freight for a while building time and enjoyed it. However, I'd only go to UPS or Fedex, simply because these are stable companies, fly their own work and have schedules that somewhat resemble an airline schedule (albeit on the back side of the clock). Most of the other cargo companies basically do charter work. In other words, they are vendors. If the customers cancels the contract, you have the potential to get hosed, so to speak. Also, many have schedules that have you on the road for weeks at a time. Some like this, not me.


Basically I've done my reading and understand the ****storm I'll be stepping into for a period of my life, making under 1/5 what I currently do. I'm just trying to figure out whether the light at the end of the tunnel is worth it, and which direction I'd want to head.

Thanks so much in advance for any guidance you can provide!
--James

The financial expectations many have getting into this business are no longer there. At the current rate, it will probably be 10 years, if not more, for me to crack $100,000. I certainly did not expect this when I started down this path. But I'm personally okay with that. Having done other things outside this field, for me this is still the best job I have ever had. So my house is a little smaller than I originally had hoped, I drive a Honda instead of a Lexus and I rent a boat instead of buy one. But career wise, I wouldn't change one thing.

Good luck with your decision.

You really are in an enviable position. You have worked hard and are always going to be very marketable with an engineering degree, though it too has its cycles. If flying is truly your passion, then you know what to do. Don't let anyone stop you from pursuing your goals and it isn't about the timeline to your ultimate "goal" job, its enjoying the ride.
I went through college on an ROTC scholarship back in the seventies without any strong yearning to be a pilot. My exposure to the Air Force fixed that. After graduation, I had almost a year until UPT and worked as an engineer for NASA at the Kennedy Space Center. I hated it! It was static and the workplace social and political entanglements were BS. It was cool to be at the Cape and I was able to do and see some neat things, but the thought of 40 years of that was nauseating. Luckily, I went to pilot training and enjoyed the Air Force and reluctantly separated and was hired at a major. I am now in my second merger, one strike, one bankruptcy, paycuts, concessions yadda yadda. I still love what I do. And that is what it is all about My only other advice would be to consider medical school. After serving as a rescue pilot in the Air Force, I had the addiction to the drama and purpose of altering a life threatening situation to a positive outcome. Working in an ER would fill that purpose and reward you personally. Whatever you choose to do, it is your life, go for it and don't look back!

If you are married and have children then I would say that your ship has sailed in regards to aviation. Let it go and forget it.

Outside of that last Saturday on the NBC nightly news the oil situation was described as an "Industry Killer". No one can say exactly what will happen however it seems like an awfully bad time to be considering this profession.

In any case you are facing huge obstacles and long odds. I would consider working until you are financially independent and then consider a career change into aviation.

SkyHigh

Now I know I can't base my life on the on the input from an internet message board and should really follow my dreams, but hear me out. :)

I grew up in an aviation family, with a father who did some flight training back in the '50s and then went on to be a machinist for UAL at SFO for almost 40 years. I used to walk through the maintenance bases with him at SFO back when security was lax, and have always had a passion for aviation. Somehow back when I was considering college, I guess I was under the impression that the only way into the pilots seat was via the military. Had I known otherwise I may have done some things differently.

Long story short, I have a four year engineering degree from the University of California at Santa Cruz, and currently work as an engineer for Cisco Systems here in San Jose, CA. I'm 28, make a salary in the low six figures, live pretty comfortably, but I'm really looking for change. And before you jump all over me, six figures doesn't get you much out here...I could never dream of buying a single family home on my income alone unless I could make it elsewhere.

In March 2007 I started working on a PPL at a local flying club mainly as a hobby, and with the hopes that it could eventually turn into a career at some point. I'm starting to really think that I'd like to ramp up my training efforts and take stab at a flying career more than I had originally anticipated.

My main questions are the following:

-For someone who is a quick learner, and already has a four year degree under their belt, how long (best and worst case) could it take to get hired with a regional, move to a major commercial or cargo, and make a decent above average wage? Am I talking 5 years after I earn all my ratings...10? :) Remember also that I'm more than happy to leave CA, so an above average wage is relative to wherever I'd be moving to.

-How does the living situation work when entering this career? When you start work for a regional, do you pretty much have to pack up and move wherever they dictate, or is it usually doable while staying put? Are there desirable places to live which would give the most options for both regionals, and transitioning to a major? Generally is it a safe bet to locate near one of the major hub airports, like DFW for example?

-Aside from breaking into the majors, what other paths can be taken that are financially lucrative, and not a dead-end? Does flying for a corporate outfit work out pretty well, or is it on par with flying for a regional? What are the ups (no-pun intended) and downs of working for a cargo carrier vs working for a commercial airline?

Basically I've done my reading and understand the ****storm I'll be stepping into for a period of my life, making under 1/5 what I currently do. I'm just trying to figure out whether the light at the end of the tunnel is worth it, and which direction I'd want to head.

Thanks so much in advance for any guidance you can provide!
--James

Don't take something you love and turn it into a "JOB" I too am 28 and what I would give for a "low six figure income". How would you like to be making an average of 40k for the next 8 years at a regional then when you get lucky enough to get a job with CAL, UAL after piling up debt for the first year (LIKE SO MANY HAVE), then guess what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yay Furloughs in the fall. Go to work to make money, fly on the weekends..............

That being said I wont quit until I am either at CAL, SWA, UPS, or FEDEX, preferably SWA.

I say I would give anything for $100,000.00 a year but M-F 9-5 is for suckers I can hold day trips and 17-18 days off a month :). Of course I will be an F/O here forever and living on $50,000.00 a year is tough n the Northeast, but life is way to precious to spend in an office, even if you make a lot of money enjoying all that it can buy for 2 days week is BS



OIL WILL NOT STAY THIS HIGH............. Don't base your future career on todays economic environment. Airline will figure it out, or the government will for them.

If you want to fly, then do it. But forget about the money. 100k will be nearly impossible at the airlines for years. There is a possibitly you'll never make that much in an aviation career.

If you want to fly, then do it. But forget about the money. 100k will be nearly impossible at the airlines for years. There is a possibitly you'll never make that much in an aviation career.


I don't know why people say that, its not "nearly impossible" at all....................

SAAB,

You are right, 100k is very attainable. My friend has been flying for Skywest for seven years, and makes around 110K. He knows how to work the schedule, and still has a ton of days off.

SAAB,

You are right, 100k is very attainable. My friend has been flying for Skywest for seven years, and makes around 110K. He knows how to work the schedule, and still has a ton of days off.

Problem is, your buddy is going to retire at 65 from Skywest still making 100k. It won't buy much by then.

Jimmy: Do not even consider becoming a pilot. Whether you do or don't, doesn't affect me at all, but unless you can live at your parents house for the next 10 plus years, on and off again, then forget it. The money blows and it will never come back to the pax side of things. Very few barriers to entry (for the airlines) and the internet equals very low wages for pax pilots.

Let it go and forget it.

Don't let the sour grapes get you. I think that's rather invasive and presumptive ... everyone has their own value systems.

That said, things will be very tough depending on your values. Like you said, ****storm and pay cuts. Guaranteed. With the impending furloughs all kinds of things are in flux. There are companies, including mine that have just hired, are hiring, have new aircraft, and have aircraft on order. I've had setbacks and lost a huge chunk of lifetime earnings, and am very happy where I am. I have substantial pay bumps already lined up and am positive future opportunities will be more than adequate if I choose to pursue them.

This business is very much timing, networking, and presentation. While it is who you know, who you know could be the person whose hand you just shook for the first time.

you'll probably realize that the glamour of airline piloting is mostly illusion

That is something worth considering. Whether it's the TSA or the pax or the CEO or his kids, someone's gonna be testing your patience. I have had more second thoughts based on this than on the money. (Haven't flown cargo ...) But my non aviation work has had many of the same issues without the satisfaction of flying to balance it.

I'd seriously consider taking your engineer work anywhere where your money buys you more, including savings. Probably could be somewhat scientific about that. Offset as much aviation training as possible with a lower cost of living ...

has been flying for Skywest for seven years

I'm positive ... and will remain so ... but it's important to distinguish between someone who has 0 TT today and someone who's already burning jet fuel. That's the real 100k question.

SAAB,

You are right, 100k is very attainable. My friend has been flying for Skywest for seven years, and makes around 110K. He knows how to work the schedule, and still has a ton of days off.

I'm year 9 on the payscale at SkyWest. Last year I averaged 105 hours of credit a month and still didn't break six figures. I typically picked up 2-3 days of additional flying above my awarded schedule and this included around 50 hours at time and a half last year. This year I'm not picking up anything extra and I won't come close to 100K.

Is it possible to work the system and make 110-120 in the seven year range with a lot of time off. Sure, but it's not typical, and this year will be even harder with the overstaffing. Time and a half has for the most part dissapeared, lines are built to lower credit now, and everyone is looking for stuff to pick up. Put a 5 hour local or standup on the swap board and it disapears in minutes, last year it could be on there for days and may not have been picked up.

Living on 100K+ in Cali is better than 20-30K elsewhere in the U.S. If you want to pursue your ratings, do so. Don't give up the golden goose in the meantime though! I'd find out where your company's hangar is and go talk to their pilots. Maybe if you network right, you could slide in there down the road. Better yet, buy a Pitts, Stearman, Cub, etc., and fly for the pure enjoyment of it!

Living on 100K+ in Cali is better than 20-30K elsewhere in the U.S. If you want to pursue your ratings, do so. Don't give up the golden goose in the meantime though! I'd find out where your company's hangar is and go talk to their pilots. Maybe if you network right, you could slide in there down the road. Better yet, buy a Pitts, Stearman, Cub, etc., and fly for the pure enjoyment of it!

I agree, nothing in the world compares to an early morning flight in a Cub, no doors, no radio, no ATC.....................its amazing.


Nothing more aggravating then missing important LIFE EVENTS becuase your ground stopped to Newark, or get Junior manned over a Holiday weekend.............

Now I know I can't base my life on the on the input from an internet message board and should really follow my dreams, but hear me out. :)

I grew up in an aviation family, with a father who did some flight training back in the '50s and then went on to be a machinist for UAL at SFO for almost 40 years. I used to walk through the maintenance bases with him at SFO back when security was lax, and have always had a passion for aviation. Somehow back when I was considering college, I guess I was under the impression that the only way into the pilots seat was via the military. Had I known otherwise I may have done some things differently.

Long story short, I have a four year engineering degree from the University of California at Santa Cruz, and currently work as an engineer for Cisco Systems here in San Jose, CA. I'm 28, make a salary in the low six figures, live pretty comfortably, but I'm really looking for change. And before you jump all over me, six figures doesn't get you much out here...I could never dream of buying a single family home on my income alone unless I could make it elsewhere.

In March 2007 I started working on a PPL at a local flying club mainly as a hobby, and with the hopes that it could eventually turn into a career at some point. I'm starting to really think that I'd like to ramp up my training efforts and take stab at a flying career more than I had originally anticipated.

My main questions are the following:

-For someone who is a quick learner, and already has a four year degree under their belt, how long (best and worst case) could it take to get hired with a regional, move to a major commercial or cargo, and make a decent above average wage? Am I talking 5 years after I earn all my ratings...10? :) Remember also that I'm more than happy to leave CA, so an above average wage is relative to wherever I'd be moving to.

-How does the living situation work when entering this career? When you start work for a regional, do you pretty much have to pack up and move wherever they dictate, or is it usually doable while staying put? Are there desirable places to live which would give the most options for both regionals, and transitioning to a major? Generally is it a safe bet to locate near one of the major hub airports, like DFW for example?

-Aside from breaking into the majors, what other paths can be taken that are financially lucrative, and not a dead-end? Does flying for a corporate outfit work out pretty well, or is it on par with flying for a regional? What are the ups (no-pun intended) and downs of working for a cargo carrier vs working for a commercial airline?

Basically I've done my reading and understand the ****storm I'll be stepping into for a period of my life, making under 1/5 what I currently do. I'm just trying to figure out whether the light at the end of the tunnel is worth it, and which direction I'd want to head.

Thanks so much in advance for any guidance you can provide!
--James


What you should do is get a job doing engineering work here in ICT at one of the manufacturers (Cessna, Hawker, Spirit). These three have flying clubs that are VERY cheap to earn your ratings in. Once you have enough time you might get a slot in test, demo etc. The beauty of this plan is that you are still getting paid a great wage, you continue benefits (health, 401k etc.) and make contacts while flying your butt off way cheaper than you could elsewhere.

Try Cessnajobs.com and the Hawker site, there are tons of engineering gigs available. Housing is great here as well. Shoot me a PM as I know several people who got their certs this way and most are on to bigger things.

Thank you for all the great input; it's great to hear everyone's different points of view. To answer some of the questions, I'm not married (although most likely will be shortly), have no kids, and do not own a home. My only debt is my car, and I'm hoping to pay for all my ratings on my own as the money shows up from my current job. I know for a fact that I don't want to enter an aviation career in debt...that seems to be the nail in the coffin for most people.

As much as I enjoy being an engineer right now, I can't see myself doing it for the rest of my life. Plus I'm not so keen on having new projects all the time, and a more or less undefined job role. I think I'd be a lot more happy knowing that each time I go to work, I more or less know what I'll be running into. As for $100k being good in CA, I partly agree. Yes it's nice from the standpoint that I can live pretty comfortably, eat out a lot, drive a nice car etc....BUT the housing situation is pretty demoralizing. A typical 1bdrm apartment runs $1800/month anywhere within a 30min commute for me, and any single family home under $600k is borderline on being condemned. Basically I'm stuck being a renter, and paying a ton for it. Plus I really do want a more rural lifestyle with some land and my own place.

I'll have to look into whether Cisco has a flight department, but based on how most of the company is run, I'm doubting it. I would guess they charter flights through another company since they do everything else that way. But yeah....if I could fly for Cisco that would be amazing since it really is a great company.

I am you my friend. I did the engineering thing. Ever see "office space"? I'd bet we have a lot of stories in common. And I was an engineer in ICT too....

If you are going to do it, go to a school that will get you through quickly. Seniority is everything so get your ratings as quick as possible with as much multi time as you can (such as ATP - I didn't go there though) and get on with a good regional (not someplace like mesa).

There is a ton of negativity in this profession. Most of the people have never worked in a cubicle so they won't understand where we are coming from. Every time I mention that I left engineering for flying, I get grief about it. But I don't regret leaving the big salary at all. Money isn't everything and it will come around.

Feel free to PM me with any questions!

If you're going to consider Wichita, I highly recommend looking into Prairie Air Service. There's at least one Raytheon demo pilot that lives at the airport(1K1)...

I'm sure you know this - but make sure you're soon to be wife knows what you are bringing her into. You will be gone a lot, and instability is the name of the game. Money will be very tight - and you'll either have to move every few years or commute, which means even more time gone. There are exceptions, but this career is a marriage breaker. It takes a very strong couple to endure what gets thrown at you. Hell, it's tough enough in a normal situation to keep it together, being gone so much doesn't help.

FWIW: I'm also an engineer, also 28, also in the Bay Area, also with a "six figures" salary. (But no, I'm not at Cisco. :) )

I looked at becoming a pilot back in 2002-03, even before all the current sh*t hit the fan, and even back then I decided it wasn't worth it. I finished my private about a year ago, and mainly fly for fun, on the weekends. I still have idle fantasies of becoming a professional pilot and flying the big iron, but after reading this (and other) boards, I know I made the right choice.

The way I see it, I make enough extra money as an engineer that I can fly fairly frequently if I want to, and I get to do it on my terms... over the Golden Gate and out to Half Moon Bay at sunset, rather than the 11pm Saturday night run from Fresno to Bakersfield.

That said, YMMV. If it's truly your dream, follow it. But choose wisely. :-)

I thought this was going to be a thread about getting out of aviation.

I'm sure you know this - but make sure you're soon to be wife knows what you are bringing her into. You will be gone a lot, and instability is the name of the game. Money will be very tight - and you'll either have to move every few years or commute, which means even more time gone. There are exceptions, but this career is a marriage breaker. It takes a very strong couple to endure what gets thrown at you. Hell, it's tough enough in a normal situation to keep it together, being gone so much doesn't help.

Negative,,,,,Oh so Negative. Turn that frown upside down mister. Instead of saying "Money will be very tight" you could say that "pilots enjoy frugal living". And in place of "You will be gone a lot" you could say that "you will get to be home sometimes".

Marriage breaker or single life maker !! Its all in how you phrase it. :)

Skyhigh

If it's truly your dream, follow it. But choose wisely. :-)

This is starting to sound eerily like the Temple of Doom. LOL

Funny you post this - I was once a victim of Tasman Drive, stuck between the tax man and the landlord, wondering how the big number on the top of my paycheck ended up being the small number in my savings at the end of the month.

So I cashed in some stock and I bailed.

Smartest thing I ever did. Life's too short to fly a desk.

Negative,,,,,Oh so Negative. Turn that frown upside down mister. Instead of saying "Money will be very tight" you could say that "pilots enjoy frugal living". And in place of "You will be gone a lot" you could say that "you will get to be home sometimes".

Marriage breaker or single life maker !! Its all in how you phrase it. :)

Skyhigh

Oh crap. I never thought I'd see the day I'd be called negative by SH :D

Basically I've done my reading and understand the ****storm I'll be stepping into for a period of my life, making under 1/5 what I currently do. I'm just trying to figure out whether the light at the end of the tunnel is worth it, and which direction I'd want to head.

As long as you understand the risk vs reward going into this then you should consider yourself briefed on what to do. Keep in mind that many people start out very motivated and glamour-focused, only to spend all of their spare time complaining on some internet message board years down the road about how much their job sucks.

Seriously, I would stay where you are at. Making 100K at 28 years old is amazing. As you add seniority at Cisco, you salary should get even better. Getting all you ratings could set you back $50k or more. And for what...to start out at $24K a year for a very long time. Stay financially secure (which does not include an entry level at the airlines) and fly on the side for fun. Get your basic ratings and buy a plane. Have a few kids, and take them flying in YOUR plane. Just my opinion. Good luck with your decision.

Think about benefits, too. I would imagine a company like Cisco has some pretty swanky bennies. Most of your airlines (except the usual 3: UPS, FDX, SWA) have di%k. (I know, AA still has a pension. Yeah, like anybody starting out today will see that...)

Also, consider this. I did 99% of my flying in the military, where the goal was to wh&re yourself out for every flying opportunity you could get yourself into. Hours was everything, more flying = more happiness.

Then I went to AA where the goal was (and I would argue this is applicable to just about every other airline out there) to fly as little as possible. Suddenly, more flying = more work = less happiness. The airlines are very accomplished at taking all the fun out of flying and making it seem a whole lot like work.

Dreams don't have a cost benefit analysis attached to them.

Money isn't everything.

Do you want to be 40 years old sitting in the back of an ambulance dying, wishing you had chased that dream?

Only you can answer what will make you happy! We all only have one shot at this thing called life! What are you going to do with your one shot?

That being said. Listen to what many people have said, go into it with your eyes wide open and a positive mental attitude.

This is a tough industry, with a ton of time away from home, but seniority has it's priveledges, so if you jump do it as quickly as you can.

No, money isn't everything and money can't buy happiness. But, money can buy you things that can make you happy! And I wouldn't say that being an airline pilot is that dreamy of a job. FWIW...

I make and have made around 100 k for the last 10 years for 3 different companies. It took me about 10 years to reach that point, which seems about average with my friends.

I think I would die in a week if I was an engineer for Cisco, with due respect to the skilled folks who chose that path.

But, If you don't feel that strongly about it, in other words if emotion is not outweighing a lot of rational concerns, I would recommend a very cautious approach. I have seen career changes work, and I have seen them fail miserably.

Good Luck-it's great to live in a society that gives us so many options.

What are you going to do with your one shot?



already blew it on aviation.....

JimmyZ80--

I'd like to respond to your question via PM but you can't receive them. PM me if you get a chance.

--S.B.

Dreams don't have a cost benefit analysis attached to them.

Money isn't everything.

Do you want to be 40 years old sitting in the back of an ambulance dying, wishing you had chased that dream?

Only you can answer what will make you happy! We all only have one shot at this thing called life! What are you going to do with your one shot?

That being said. Listen to what many people have said, go into it with your eyes wide open and a positive mental attitude.

This is a tough industry, with a ton of time away from home, but seniority has it's priveledges, so if you jump do it as quickly as you can.

I guess that all depends upon your dreams. If your sole goal in life is to fly planes and you don't care about your financial future or personal life then by all means fly planes.

However if your life goals include; growing a family, building wealth to care for yourself in retirement and to life a life of your own design then perhaps aviation isn't a good choice.

We can't have it all in life. Aviation absorbs a huge amount of ones life resources. As for myself I would hate to be dying in the back of an ambulance thinking about how I wasted my days in the front of an airplane and missed out on many of the best things in life. Flying is a huge part of my life but it is not everything to me.

A job is supposed to make your personal life possible and not to be your life. At one time this was a great profession that offered a better life than a plumber.

SkyHigh

"A job is supposed to make your personal life possible and not to be your life'

50 hours flown so far this year. It's working out well for some that stuck it out and didn't quit. Best part time job around....

I guess that all depends upon your dreams. If your sole goal in life is to fly planes and you don't care about your financial future or personal life then by all means fly planes.

However if your life goals include; growing a family, building wealth to care for yourself in retirement and to life a life of your own design then perhaps aviation isn't a good choice.

We can't have it all in life. Aviation absorbs a huge amount of ones life resources. As for myself I would hate to be dying in the back of an ambulance thinking about how I wasted my days in the front of an airplane [:eek: *** man]and missed out on many of the best things in life. Flying is a huge part of my life but it is not everything to me.

A job is supposed to make your personal life possible and not to be your life.
At one time this was a great profession that offered a better life than a plumber.

SkyHigh

You assume money is happiness? I'm not saying it's not a huge piece, but you seem a little fixated.
It's clear this industry has fallen in terms of financial rewards. A) it's still very decent, B) it has unique aspects totally incomparable to any other job.

I went from a management job outside aviation to flying for a higher annual income and now work about 10-20% as much.
I have way more time to live a life of my design. And every day I go to my "job" feels like home.

In high school health class they wisely taught us that "people do drugs not because the wish to destroy their lives but because drugs are fun". Their point was that by ignoring the consequences and only focusing on the "fun" people were hurting themselves.

The debate over money and its importance has been discussed on this forum many times. Research proves that though money does not buy happiness it does make life easier and more likely find happiness.

Aviation is seductive. It can lure people into the destruction of their personal lives or not to be able to even have one at all. Often it takes most of a lifetime to be able to recognize what has been lost.

I sincerely wish that everyone here (myself included) could reach their dream job while still young enough to benefit from it. In addition it is almost as important to be able to keep that job throughout a career.

The reality is that at some point most people will have to let go of the dream in order to salvage what it left of their lives. Aviation is fun and sadly that is about all that most of us will get out of it.

Skyhigh

"A job is supposed to make your personal life possible and not to be your life'

50 hours flown so far this year. It's working out well for some that stuck it out and didn't quit. Best part time job around....

You know you keep saying that as if all one has to do is to stick around long enough and magic will strike. I have a lot of friends who are still out there and what should I tell them? Does it take 5 years? 25 years? If they are in their late 50's by the time they make it to a major does it really matter anymore?

You must admit to yourself in private that you hit the jackpot. Back when you got hired at UPS no one would have guessed that it was going to become the king of the hill. Back then UPS was not on anyones dream list. No amount of trying could have gotten you to where you are. Pure luck was a leading factor.

You are one out of one hundred. You are the sole person on this entire forum who truly has hit it big and has it made. You are the king. The odds of someone starting today of reaching the same heights in pay, status, time off and career accomplishments has to be one in a few thousand to nill.

It is inaccurate and false advertising for you to suggest that others can achieve similar results in the future. Maybe you should qualify your statements? What does making it mean to you? I am sure that people will still be flying 757's in 20 years (maybe) and that they will wear uniforms and stay in hotels, but will they earn the same income? Will pilots enjoy the same time off, schedules, union rules as you?

If simply reaching a 757-200 qualifies as having made it then I was there.

Gambling paid off for you however for the rest the house usually wins.

SkyHigh

"You are the sole person on this entire forum who truly has hit it big and has it made."

Oh Please....

It ain't just little old me....

Every one of this site's leadership has made the big time while you walked away. I'd say each Fedex and UPS pilot has made it to the big house while you decided it wasn't worth your time.

In fact, anyone who is happy with the choice to stick with the career "has hit it big". Each person has their own "hit it big" scale based on their personal opinion. What's worthy to one person might not be worthy to Sky.

Honestly, in spite of Sky's rants, I don't personally know one person who wouldn't do it over. And that includes Aloha's, Mesa's, America West's, Delta's, UPSers, and several guys that keep emailing me at the regionals.

As low as the cycle has gone, there are those who find it worth their time to be optimistic for the future. One of those guys will have my job in 12 years....

"You are the sole person on this entire forum who truly has hit it big and has it made."

Oh Please....

It ain't just little old me....

Every one of this site's leadership has made the big time while you walked away. I'd say each Fedex and UPS pilot has made it to the big house while you decided it wasn't worth your time.

In fact, anyone who is happy with the choice to stick with the career "has hit it big". Each person has their own "hit it big" scale based on their personal opinion. What's worthy to one person might not be worthy to Sky.

Honestly, in spite of Sky's rants, I don't personally know one person who wouldn't do it over. And that includes Aloha's, Mesa's, America West's, Delta's, UPSers, and several guys that keep emailing me at the regionals.

As low as the cycle has gone, there are those who find it worth their time to be optimistic for the future. One of those guys will have my job in 12 years....


Some of my points on this forum are about definitions.

Definition of success in aviation. Some people will continue to take a beating in this industry until they have lost everything. Is that success? Is it a good idea? When does logic and self preservation come into play? Not everyone will make it to FedEx. It's a fact. Whats more who says that in 15 years FedEx will even be the place to be by then? How does making it to your dream job at 50 make it a successful career in regards to the other facets of life?

To me the definition of success in aviation is to be able to earn more money and have a better and more secure life than if you hadn't gone through the effort it took to get there. To me a career that demands as much as aviation should offer a substantial return other than just job satisfaction. Most people who want to should be able to get hired at UPS while still in their 20's.

Definition: If an occupation does not offer compensation that is worthy of the investment that it took to get there then it is a hobby. I will not argue that your friends who have just been laid off at Aloha are not happy with their profession. My point is that when compared to most other professions aviation looses far more than it gains.

When considering the odds and comparing aviation to other ways to spend your life is it still a valid profession or just a working hobby with a hail Mary chance at the big time?

SkyHigh

My vote goes with skyhigh, if I had it to do over I would have done something else. But for now I am stuck albeit planning my exit. By the way even cargo airlines still have lost spending power since the 1978 bench mark. What a UPS or FEDEX captain makes in inflation adjusted terms now does not compare well with the earning power of a captain at Flying Tigers or Trans International. Or Saturn, or Slick Bros. Or the rather significant amounts of UPS contracted cargo moved in the 1970's by World Airways, or Overseas National, or Airlift International. The huge dive taken after de-reg has many conducting an excercise of "The reasonable frog is the one who gets boiled".

I don't want to get out of aviation without a pretty good fight first. It's a pipe dream, but I would personally love it if all of us 121 pax pilots stopped going to work for a week or so.

Who cares whether it's legal or not. We all know management doesn't play by the rules, why should we? You gotta hit 'em hard w/ what they can understand, this coming to the negotiating table and negotiating in good faith has gotten most in this profession nowhere.

We can't expect meaningful change in this industry if we're not willing to take great risks and make great sacrifices. We can't just sit by and wait for it to happen, we're all going to have to make it happen.

Just read that the median CEO salary in this country is about $8 million/year. This sort of greed has got to stop. I can deal w/ the high oil prices and other difficult changes we've seen in this industry over the last several years, however, I cannot come to terms w/ the fact that despite all the sacrifices employees in this industry have made, the CEOs and upper management types have walked away w/ their bonuses and other perks. Take a look at United, that's the most tragic story I've seen in my career so far.

Well the best thing we can say about all of this is that its..OPINIONS .... and opinions are like your posterior ....everyone has one.... and their are ( in my opinion ) only three that matter... MINE ( for me ) my wifes.... and my god's..... the rest of them ... are just that someone else's.

"A job is supposed to make your personal life possible and not to be your life'

50 hours flown so far this year. It's working out well for some that stuck it out and didn't quit. Best part time job around....

And millions of hours spent as a moderator on two different message boards. Gee, how is your life outside of the cockpit defined? :rolleyes:

I don't want to get out of aviation without a pretty good fight first. It's a pipe dream, but I would personally love it if all of us 121 pax pilots stopped going to work for a week or so.


I've pondered that. We could all go out on Nov 20th, and not come back until our demands were written into federal law....

-Single national seniority list, based on years of 121 service (ie somebody who was furloughed in 2001 after 4 years at AA and has not flown since could come back with four years seniority. Certified scabs would get a seniority penalty.

- All 121 pilots are federal employees with appropriate benefits and pensions.

- Payscales would be "squeezed" towards the middle...nobody making $17K and nobody making $300K. A range of $60K - $180K, achievable with work rules and lavish federal per diem. This way you make the same average total over your career, but you get more money sooner (investing works better if you start sooner), avoid late-career tax penalties, and avoid public outrage at $300K pilots.

- Equipment/domicile/seat based on seniority.

- Pay based on equipment size/seat.

- Grandfather existing top-end pilots with higher pay so they don't get penalized (much).

- Fences to prevent mainline FO's from getting bypassed by regional lifers.

- Cargo can participate, or stay private, their choice.

- Airlines pay the government for the use of the pilots. The government can charge whatever they want. Pilots can change companies, but there would be a "company lock" in addition to equipment/seat locks to protect training investments.

- Military guys would get partial seniority credit for relevant military service as a fixed-winged aviator. Just to maintain some status quo.

- Initial hiring would be done by the government...similar process to military officer selection. Probably require a 4-year degree and PPL to apply (shows aptitude, motivation, and initiative)

- Training would be provided by a national academy, with several campuses to provide exposure to different Wx, terrain, and airspace environments.

- College scholarships could be provided if needed to encourage applicants.

- All pilots would be FFDO's.

Why should we have anything less than the TSA screeners???

You know you keep saying that as if all one has to do is to stick around long enough and magic will strike. I have a lot of friends who are still out there and what should I tell them? Does it take 5 years? 25 years? If they are in their late 50's by the time they make it to a major does it really matter anymore?

You must admit to yourself in private that you hit the jackpot. Back when you got hired at UPS no one would have guessed that it was going to become the king of the hill. Back then UPS was not on anyones dream list. No amount of trying could have gotten you to where you are. Pure luck was a leading factor.

You are one out of one hundred. You are the sole person on this entire forum who truly has hit it big and has it made. You are the king. The odds of someone starting today of reaching the same heights in pay, status, time off and career accomplishments has to be one in a few thousand to nill.

It is inaccurate and false advertising for you to suggest that others can achieve similar results in the future. Maybe you should qualify your statements? What does making it mean to you? I am sure that people will still be flying 757's in 20 years (maybe) and that they will wear uniforms and stay in hotels, but will they earn the same income? Will pilots enjoy the same time off, schedules, union rules as you?

If simply reaching a 757-200 qualifies as having made it then I was there.

Gambling paid off for you however for the rest the house usually wins.

SkyHigh
Well said Sky. Very few of us will have the lifestyle or paycheck of those at UPS or Fedex...

50 hours flown so far this year. out and didn't quit. Best part time job around....

Please keep stuff like that to yourself. It's very hard for that not to sound a bit like gloating.

In high school health class they wisely taught us that "people do drugs not because the wish to destroy their lives but because drugs are fun". Their point was that by ignoring the consequences and only focusing on the "fun" people were hurting themselves.

The debate over money and its importance has been discussed on this forum many times. Research proves that though money does not buy happiness it does make life easier and more likely find happiness.

Aviation is seductive. It can lure people into the destruction of their personal lives or not to be able to even have one at all. Often it takes most of a lifetime to be able to recognize what has been lost.

I sincerely wish that everyone here (myself included) could reach their dream job while still young enough to benefit from it. In addition it is almost as important to be able to keep that job throughout a career.

The reality is that at some point most people will have to let go of the dream in order to salvage what it left of their lives. Aviation is fun and sadly that is about all that most of us will get out of it.

Skyhigh

Thank you for calling me an addict. That's really wonderful.
I have gotten fulfillment, quality of life, and substantial livelihood out of aviation. And will continue to.
I am not where I should be based on skill, ability, or experience. Nonetheless, my job is ideal and I deceive myself less than the average cubicle monkey. I know lots of those.

You take the worst of the worst in bad pilot attitudes and just lawn dart it beyond compare.

Peace.

I've pondered that. We could all go out on Nov 20th, and not come back until our demands were written into federal law....

-Single national seniority list, based on years of 121 service (ie somebody who was furloughed in 2001 after 4 years at AA and has not flown since could come back with four years seniority. Certified scabs would get a seniority penalty.

- All 121 pilots are federal employees with appropriate benefits and pensions.

- Payscales would be "squeezed" towards the middle...nobody making $17K and nobody making $300K. A range of $60K - $180K, achievable with work rules and lavish federal per diem. This way you make the same average total over your career, but you get more money sooner (investing works better if you start sooner), avoid late-career tax penalties, and avoid public outrage at $300K pilots.

- Equipment/domicile/seat based on seniority.

- Pay based on equipment size/seat.

- Grandfather existing top-end pilots with higher pay so they don't get penalized (much).

- Fences to prevent mainline FO's from getting bypassed by regional lifers.

- Cargo can participate, or stay private, their choice.

- Airlines pay the government for the use of the pilots. The government can charge whatever they want. Pilots can change companies, but there would be a "company lock" in addition to equipment/seat locks to protect training investments.

- Military guys would get partial seniority credit for relevant military service as a fixed-winged aviator. Just to maintain some status quo.

- Initial hiring would be done by the government...similar process to military officer selection. Probably require a 4-year degree and PPL to apply (shows aptitude, motivation, and initiative)

- Training would be provided by a national academy, with several campuses to provide exposure to different Wx, terrain, and airspace environments.

- College scholarships could be provided if needed to encourage applicants.

- All pilots would be FFDO's.

Why should we have anything less than the TSA screeners???

I agree w/ all of your thoughts here, good ideas. How do we make it happen...how could it be organized? What a monumental task that would be.

From my perspective, there came a time when I simply realized that airline flying is a drip, drip, drip slow spiral downward. I love flying and being around airplanes. But I want to move forward every paycheck -- meaning that I am one step further along toward maxing out this year's 401K and IRA. If you're lucky, maybe you have an Executive Supplemental Savings Plan as well. My non-retirement account has $20-$30K minimum. I am one step further toward paying off my mortgage by the time I'm 50. I am also one step closer to working by choice when I'm 55. If it's time to buy a new car, I pay cash. We all want toys -- how does a new Ranger 185 Reata with a Yamaha 150 HP four-stroke sound -- but you can't do it with tens of thousands of dollars in debt hanging around your neck.

I was astonished during my training to learn that a number of my classmates (some who were in their 30s and should have known better) had six-figure debts. Unless they had inheritance coming their way, they're screwed indefinately. I couldn't understand that they would risk financial purgatory just to wear a uniform and sleep in a hotel bed. For me, I am getting very close to affording fractional share ownership in a new Cirrus 22 to satisfy my urge to fly 125+ hours per year in a high-performance jalopy. In the mean time, I aim a new 172 with glass (soon to be glass with synthetic vision) around the sky. We all know that lazily preflighting at a 3500-foort strip early on a weekday morning, or perhaps after dinner when the day has quieted down, is way cooler than pushing back on time yet being number 18 in line at PHL.

My point is that flying for a career was too unstable for my tastes -- couldn't establish a life gameplane doing it. Money isn't everything. Your health, for one, is more important. So, too, is your marriage and family -- or it should be. I've noticed that SkyHigh, as a general rule, comes across as a bit negative. But his common theme is similar to what I'm saying. At what point do all of you 28-year-olds take the first step toward recovery and admit that your lack of control in your professional life (and by extension in your personal life) really is an elephant in the living room?

Being a professional aviator has never been for the faint at heart. It's for the most part, about being lucky.... But you have to have the balls to hang in long enough for the luck to come your way.

Being a professional aviator has never been for the faint at heart. It's for the most part, about being lucky.... But you have to have the balls to hang in long enough for the luck to come your way.

Many people hang in there till its way too late. Regionals are full of 50 year old guys who are still waiting for their ship to come in. Dreams do not always come true. Pilots get furloughed. Companies shut down, mergers distroy senority. Luck is a huge part but take a look at the down side if a pilot fails.

Where should a reasonable person draw the line? When does this profession become redicolous in the face of such difficult odds?

SkyHigh

Thank you for calling me an addict. That's really wonderful.
I have gotten fulfillment, quality of life, and substantial livelihood out of aviation. And will continue to.
I am not where I should be based on skill, ability, or experience. Nonetheless, my job is ideal and I deceive myself less than the average cubicle monkey. I know lots of those.

You take the worst of the worst in bad pilot attitudes and just lawn dart it beyond compare.

Peace.

I am happy for you. If you have found what you are looking for then great. I don't know how long you have been in the indutry but others are not so fortunate. Perhaps you havent had to experience some of the hardships that I write about yet.

Many pilots have thought that they had it made before. Things change.

Skyhigh

From my perspective, there came a time when I simply realized that airline flying is a drip, drip, drip slow spiral downward. I love flying and being around airplanes. But I want to move forward every paycheck -- meaning that I am one step further along toward maxing out this year's 401K and IRA. If you're lucky, maybe you have an Executive Supplemental Savings Plan as well. My non-retirement account has $20-$30K minimum. I am one step further toward paying off my mortgage by the time I'm 50. I am also one step closer to working by choice when I'm 55. If it's time to buy a new car, I pay cash. We all want toys -- how does a new Ranger 185 Reata with a Yamaha 150 HP four-stroke sound -- but you can't do it with tens of thousands of dollars in debt hanging around your neck.

I was astonished during my training to learn that a number of my classmates (some who were in their 30s and should have known better) had six-figure debts. Unless they had inheritance coming their way, they're screwed indefinately. I couldn't understand that they would risk financial purgatory just to wear a uniform and sleep in a hotel bed. For me, I am getting very close to affording fractional share ownership in a new Cirrus 22 to satisfy my urge to fly 125+ hours per year in a high-performance jalopy. In the mean time, I aim a new 172 with glass (soon to be glass with synthetic vision) around the sky. We all know that lazily preflighting at a 3500-foort strip early on a weekday morning, or perhaps after dinner when the day has quieted down, is way cooler than pushing back on time yet being number 18 in line at PHL.

My point is that flying for a career was too unstable for my tastes -- couldn't establish a life gameplane doing it. Money isn't everything. Your health, for one, is more important. So, too, is your marriage and family -- or it should be. I've noticed that SkyHigh, as a general rule, comes across as a bit negative. But his common theme is similar to what I'm saying. At what point do all of you 28-year-olds take the first step toward recovery and admit that your lack of control in your professional life (and by extension in your personal life) really is an elephant in the living room?

I think that since 9-11 there has been a fundamental change in the attitudes of new pilots and in pilots in general. Back when I started pilots got into aviation because we loved to fly but also because there was reasonable potential to make a much better living than most other professions. We all knew most of the risks and hardships however the reward was within reach and was well worth the sacrifice.

Today pilots just seem thankful simply fly a plane and are braced for a life of poverty and loss. They are not taking into consideration the realities that a career of low wages, frequent moves and consistent periods of unemployment will bring. Often is seems that the promise of flying a new RJ puts people in a trance that is only broken after their first year on the line. By then the money is gone and there are few ways out.

People who let themselves get 100K in debt over flight training are either choosing to ignore the obvious or they think that everyone gets a job with SWA within a year of two after graduation from flight school. To me there is no other explanation for it. Back when I started there were no student loans for flight training. We earned every dollar one hour at a time. I painfully knew how much my training was costing me. Perhaps the ease of signing a loan and getting to play with airplanes before having to pay it back makes is responsible for the current flood of people who have such romantic ideals and little regard for themselves?

Back when I started if you were to have announced to the class that airline pilots in the future would make less than plumbers everyone would have walked out. Money isn't everything but unless you are earning enough to be worthy of the investment and risk made then it is a working hobby and you should expect a net loss over your career.

SKyHigh

I agree w/ all of your thoughts here, good ideas. How do we make it happen...how could it be organized? What a monumental task that would be.

Probably impossible without an industry catastrophe, followed by bankruptcies, liquidations, masive furloughs, and wholesale cuts in labor compensation.

Basically things would have to get so bad that most pilots could longer justify coming to work. If you have nothing to lose, what the heay!

Probably impossible without an industry catastrophe, followed by bankruptcies, liquidations, masive furloughs, and wholesale cuts in labor compensation.

Basically things would have to get so bad that most pilots could longer justify coming to work. If you have nothing to lose, what the heay!

So in other words, sometime towards the end of this summer?

So in other words, sometime towards the end of this summer?

Maybe.
.......

From my perspective, there came a time when I simply realized that airline flying is a drip, drip, drip slow spiral downward. I love flying and being around airplanes. But I want to move forward every paycheck -- meaning that I am one step further along toward maxing out this year's 401K and IRA. If you're lucky, maybe you have an Executive Supplemental Savings Plan as well. My non-retirement account has $20-$30K minimum. I am one step further toward paying off my mortgage by the time I'm 50. I am also one step closer to working by choice when I'm 55. If it's time to buy a new car, I pay cash. We all want toys -- how does a new Ranger 185 Reata with a Yamaha 150 HP four-stroke sound -- but you can't do it with tens of thousands of dollars in debt hanging around your neck.

I was astonished during my training to learn that a number of my classmates (some who were in their 30s and should have known better) had six-figure debts. Unless they had inheritance coming their way, they're screwed indefinately. I couldn't understand that they would risk financial purgatory just to wear a uniform and sleep in a hotel bed. For me, I am getting very close to affording fractional share ownership in a new Cirrus 22 to satisfy my urge to fly 125+ hours per year in a high-performance jalopy. In the mean time, I aim a new 172 with glass (soon to be glass with synthetic vision) around the sky. We all know that lazily preflighting at a 3500-foort strip early on a weekday morning, or perhaps after dinner when the day has quieted down, is way cooler than pushing back on time yet being number 18 in line at PHL.

My point is that flying for a career was too unstable for my tastes -- couldn't establish a life gameplane doing it. Money isn't everything. Your health, for one, is more important. So, too, is your marriage and family -- or it should be. I've noticed that SkyHigh, as a general rule, comes across as a bit negative. But his common theme is similar to what I'm saying. At what point do all of you 28-year-olds take the first step toward recovery and admit that your lack of control in your professional life (and by extension in your personal life) really is an elephant in the living room?


I totally agree with you and SKYHIGH. I don't think SKYHIGH comes across to negative sometimes, I think he tells the truth and most people are either to nieve or just don't wan't to hear the truth. My father use to tell me how things use to be. I look at how things are today and I really feel sorry for you guys, airtravel use to be a luxury and not a neccesity. I will go no further, because I will just be stating information that has been posted and reposted. I love aviation with all my heart BUT I love being rewarded for my work even more!!

So in other words, sometime towards the end of this summer?
Yes, make it right about the election for an SOS. Either that or King George's last day in office, he can order us back to work and we can tell him to pound sand.

I'm with eyels and skyhigh as well. I'm not bitter, either are these other guys. Sky has good stories and i'm sure eyels does as well. I've been there, done that. spent 6 yrs at a Frac. Before that, flew charter, and part 91 on a Sabreliner and Learjet 55. Turns out i'm a homebody. I don't mind being in my "cubicle" when there is torrential rain outside. Now, I just kind of laugh to myself and thank god I don't have to dodge TS's anymore. I miss flying tremendously, and might even join a club or something for fun, but folks who get into it these days don't think of the lifestyle associated with it. The career changers fly their planes on the weekend, and then DRIVE HOME after their trip! Of course that is exhilarating. You get to go home after you fly! Please understand what it's like to have to commute, eat in a cramped cockpit (three times per day). Please understand the 3 am wakeup calls for junior manning.

I think that since 9-11 there has been a fundamental change in the attitudes of new pilots and in pilots in general. Back when I started pilots got into aviation because we loved to fly but also because there was reasonable potential to make a much better living than most other professions. We all knew most of the risks and hardships however the reward was within reach and was well worth the sacrifice.

Today pilots just seem thankful simply fly a plane and are braced for a life of poverty and loss. They are not taking into consideration the realities that a career of low wages, frequent moves and consistent periods of unemployment will bring. Often is seems that the promise of flying a new RJ puts people in a trance that is only broken after their first year on the line. By then the money is gone and there are few ways out.

People who let themselves get 100K in debt over flight training are either choosing to ignore the obvious or they think that everyone gets a job with SWA within a year of two after graduation from flight school. To me there is no other explanation for it. Back when I started there were no student loans for flight training. We earned every dollar one hour at a time. I painfully knew how much my training was costing me. Perhaps the ease of signing a loan and getting to play with airplanes before having to pay it back makes is responsible for the current flood of people who have such romantic ideals and little regard for themselves?

Back when I started if you were to have announced to the class that airline pilots in the future would make less than plumbers everyone would have walked out. Money isn't everything but unless you are earning enough to be worthy of the investment and risk made then it is a working hobby and you should expect a net loss over your career.

SKyHigh

mods, can we make this post a sticky? this guy says everything i'm thinking, only better! How's about another career change section? Maybe call it "leaving Aviation" or something like that? There seems to be an increase in the amount of folks finding other joys in their lives when deciding to leave flying for a living from all of the websites I go to, not just this one. What do you think? Maybe folks can see what other pilots are doing now after they left. What industry their in. Maybe they are still in aviation, but in a different role(like me)?

mods, can we make this post a sticky? this guy says everything i'm thinking, only better! How's about another career change section? Maybe call it "leaving Aviation" or something like that? There seems to be an increase in the amount of folks finding other joys in their lives when deciding to leave flying for a living from all of the websites I go to, not just this one. What do you think? Maybe folks can see what other pilots are doing now after they left. What industry their in. Maybe they are still in aviation, but in a different role(like me)?


I vote no to make any of SkyHigh's posts as a "sticky". He does state certain truths about the downside of an aviation career. However, it is about his misguided and negative sense of proportion and perspective. His message is that in all cases, outside of being independently wealthy or having a sugar spouse, an aviation career is not viable. This is not true for the majority of working pilots.

I don't actually think there is a risk of the mods making his post a sticky as the mods are level headed enough not to give the extremists on any issues a special voice.

I think that since 9-11 there has been a fundamental change in the attitudes of new pilots and in pilots in general. Back when I started pilots got into aviation because we loved to fly but also because there was reasonable potential to make a much better living than most other professions. We all knew most of the risks and hardships however the reward was within reach and was well worth the sacrifice.

Today pilots just seem thankful simply fly a plane and are braced for a life of poverty and loss. They are not taking into consideration the realities that a career of low wages, frequent moves and consistent periods of unemployment will bring. Often is seems that the promise of flying a new RJ puts people in a trance that is only broken after their first year on the line. By then the money is gone and there are few ways out.

People who let themselves get 100K in debt over flight training are either choosing to ignore the obvious or they think that everyone gets a job with SWA within a year of two after graduation from flight school. To me there is no other explanation for it. Back when I started there were no student loans for flight training. We earned every dollar one hour at a time. I painfully knew how much my training was costing me. Perhaps the ease of signing a loan and getting to play with airplanes before having to pay it back makes is responsible for the current flood of people who have such romantic ideals and little regard for themselves?

Back when I started if you were to have announced to the class that airline pilots in the future would make less than plumbers everyone would have walked out. Money isn't everything but unless you are earning enough to be worthy of the investment and risk made then it is a working hobby and you should expect a net loss over your career.

SKyHigh

SH -

It may be time for another installment of 'THE GOOD TIMES IN THE LIFE OF SKYHIGH.'
What do you say???;)

USMCFLYR

I vote no to make any of SkyHigh's posts as a "sticky". He does state certain truths about the downside of an aviation career. However, it is about his misguided and negative sense of proportion and perspective. His message is that in all cases, outside of being independently wealthy or having a sugar spouse, an aviation career is not viable. This is not true for the majority of working pilots.

I don't actually think there is a risk of the mods making his post a sticky as the mods are level headed enough not to give the extremists on any issues a special voice.

I've read some of your other posts. To call people cowards like you did Skyhigh a few months ago is pitiful. Oh, btw i've got a sugar spouse and still got out! Yes, I lurk these boards because I like to. Yes, I do miss alot of my past experiences, but the family is happier that i'm home.

A few months ago, the FO on a London flight came back to talk to me during his break. He had been a captain on an MD80, but was not working right seat on a 777. He's 48 years old and been with the company something like 18 years. He's plenty nervous because, if he were to be furloughed, he has no other marketable skills, his wife is a schoolteacher making low 20s, and he has two children that are still a few years from graduating high school.

This touched off a conversation -- how do you protect yourself from being left out in the cold if you lose your job and have no other skill sets whereby you can earn a living? I think it sure would help if today's 20-year-olds got better advice -- no, correction, an unmistakable kick in the rear not to put all of their eggs in one basket.

A much younger friend of mine had trouble passing her airline interviews last year. At that time she was really bummed, But today, she's working locally in dispatch for a Fortune 500 company, and is now flying part-time right seat on one the smaller company jets. Home at night. Local employment. Getting her flight kicks flying jets. And making in her first year what it would have taken 5+ years to make at a regional. I understand that she is also pursuing a basic meterology degree. Still in aviation with multiple skill sets. Not bad.

I've noticed SkyHigh's comments for the two years in which I've been reading this forum and in many cases he's been told he should take his comments elsewhere because many think he's hostile. Now, I don't presume to speak for SkyHigh, but allow me to say this. Pilots are passionate about flying and airplanes. It's just that it really ****es me off that I'm better off in another profession because it doesn't pay (literally and figuratively) to fly professionally. In fact, it's stupid. We're all very competent, disciplined and dedicated workers. Yet, management treats us like low lifes. I don't need that.

For those of you who are not so young any more, I hope seniority carries you through to retirement. For the rest of you who are on the younger side, create a fall-back position in case you find yourself out of a job.

I've read some of your other posts. To call people cowards like you did Skyhigh a few months ago is pitiful.

.......as I think your blind allegiance to SH is pitiful. I make no apologies about my opinion of him. I said it then and I'll say it now. Leaving the career is one thing. I can respect that. However, leaving the career and making summarily negative commentary to anyone considering starting a career because he gave up shows lack of integrity and spinelessness. Thus, cowardly.

Bottom line: there are no guarantees. Hard work and perserverance do not necessarily pay off in the airline game. Some will win, some will lose; some are going to sing the blues.

After 16 years in the airline business I am again a regional FO and making about $40k. Even with my time at a major prior to 9/11, I never have made more than $60k. Now my carrier is reducing again, so what I had hoped would be just another year or two in the right seat clinging to the dream is now likely to become a half dozen based on various factors coming into play here in the next 5 years. (Btw, in 16 years and 5 airlines I've managed one, yes one cumulatively, as a Captain. Wrong places wrong times.) I have watched my savings dwindle steadily since 9/11, all while "perservering and paying more dues". Admittedly, a big part of the problem is me. I'm simply not willing to commute (or move right now for that matter) and give up watching my kids grow up. Like someone else said, it appears that I am a homebody. Having a home and family is simply not a good formula for success in this biz. What is great at 25 can suck at 40.

So I've been there and done that, got the t-shirts to prove it. Now I guess I'm somewhat validating Skyhigh's theories and looking to get out before it's too late to salvage my financial life and the ability to provide a good life for my wife and kids. But, I can't wait to save a few hundred bucks and earmark them for some spring evening sunset viewing from 500' AGL in a Cub.

Best of luck to all in (or joining) the business.

.......as I think your blind allegiance to SH is pitiful. I make no apologies about my opinion of him. I said it then and I'll say it now. Leaving the career is one thing. I can respect that. However, leaving the career and making summarily negative commentary to anyone considering starting a career because he gave up shows lack of integrity and spinelessness. Thus, cowardly.

Whatever you think of SH, his point of view is good reading for the youngsters. Most people who wind up in SH's position DON''T share their experiences on the forums...they just get on with their lives.

What you end up with is more people who have GOOD experiences reveling in their success.

Kind of like talking to military veterans to help yourself decide whether to join up...the perspective you get will be skewed towards the positive because the ones who had the worst experiences can't share THEIR perspective :eek:

Multiple skill sets are critical in this line of work though.....

Whatever you think of SH, his point of view is good reading for the youngsters. Most people who wind up in SH's position DON''T share their experiences on the forums...they just get on with their lives.

I disagree. His views are not good for youngsters because there is no antitheses to his opinion......which would be some happy go lucky overly optimistic everything is just great view. Of course there isn't one because such a positive view would be pretty unrealistic.


What you end up with is more people who have GOOD experiences reveling in their success.

Kind of like talking to military veterans to help yourself decide whether to join up...the perspective you get will be skewed towards the positive because the ones who had the worst experiences can't share THEIR perspective :eek:

On the contrary, I think this board is pretty well balanced without SH. There are plenty of people that talk about the bad with the good, myself included.

The reason SH is so appealing is because these aren't the best of times. One cannot look at one downturn alone to make a career decision. If this was 1998, more people would be telling SH to shut up.

I'm with eyels and skyhigh as well. I'm not bitter, either are these other guys. Sky has good stories and i'm sure eyels does as well. I've been there, done that. spent 6 yrs at a Frac. Before that, flew charter, and part 91 on a Sabreliner and Learjet 55. Turns out i'm a homebody. I don't mind being in my "cubicle" when there is torrential rain outside. Now, I just kind of laugh to myself and thank god I don't have to dodge TS's anymore. I miss flying tremendously, and might even join a club or something for fun, but folks who get into it these days don't think of the lifestyle associated with it. The career changers fly their planes on the weekend, and then DRIVE HOME after their trip! Of course that is exhilarating. You get to go home after you fly! Please understand what it's like to have to commute, eat in a cramped cockpit (three times per day). Please understand the 3 am wakeup calls for junior manning.

Interesting, you and I sound a lot a like. I have realized I too am a homebody. When on a trip, all I long for is to go home. And I'm bored to tears - so that doesn't help. So tired of hotels, going to bars, going to malls, walking around seeing sights with people I barely know, and of missing out on so much of what really matters with those who matter most to me back home. I know many people are frustrated with the pay aspect of the industry, but for me it's the lifestyle I'm sick of. If Emirates were to hire me today, I'd turn it down. And unfortunately it seems that's where the future of this industry is - overseas. No thanks.

Oh, and I second the suggestion of a forum section for those wanting out, or who have gotten out, or looking for help getting out. We need a home ;)

walking around seeing sights with people I barely know, ;)

forgot about this one!! Where do you want to eat? I don't know, whatever you want....I'm going to the mall, you want to go? I always joke to my wife when I see a couple of dudes eating together in a restaraunt....either gay or pilots! And then you look closer and see the "million air TEB" t shirt:).

Interesting, you and I sound a lot a like. I have realized I too am a homebody. When on a trip, all I long for is to go home. And I'm bored to tears - so that doesn't help. So tired of hotels, going to bars, going to malls, walking around seeing sights with people I barely know, and of missing out on so much of what really matters with those who matter most to me back home. I know many people are frustrated with the pay aspect of the industry, but for me it's the lifestyle I'm sick of. If Emirates were to hire me today, I'd turn it down. And unfortunately it seems that's where the future of this industry is - overseas. No thanks.

Oh, and I second the suggestion of a forum section for those wanting out, or who have gotten out, or looking for help getting out. We need a home ;)


Flying is a difficult lifestyle. It is no fun to experience the best parts of your life in pictures, video and over the phone. Only then to come home to unpaid bills and an empty house because everyone else is at work or school.

It would be much easier to take if the money was still there. At least then you could feel good about providing for your family.

The prospect of selling out your country to stay in the saddle does not sit well with me either. I am not comfortable placing my family in harms way in the middle east or India while I flew off to Europe for overnights in the western world. They wouldn't be happy with that either.

SkyHigh

hardships

I have a lot to read to catch up but let me just stop right here. You have no idea the hardships I've seen. I don't need to share them, but I can assure you that's a lousy tack.

Back when I started

I call BS. I only have 1.5 decades to work with, but I know many who were "braced" for hardship since times long past. They made measured decisions and were in it for more than money. You reveal your own disillusionment more than confirm others'.

I have a lot to read to catch up but let me just stop right here. You have no idea the hardships I've seen. I don't need to share them, but I can assure you that's a lousy tack.

I don't know much about you that is why I only guessed that you had not seen much of the down side of aviation yet. Your past posts seem to suggest that you have not been in the industry very long. If I am wrong about that then I am sorry, however you have not shared your situation very much. Usually that means a new person to the industry.


SkyHigh

I call BS. I only have 1.5 decades to work with, but I know many who were "braced" for hardship since times long past. They made measured decisions and were in it for more than money. You reveal your own disillusionment more than confirm others'.

Sure the hardships and challenges were there but the return was also worth it then.


SkyHigh

Yes, I actually favor great discretion when posting online.

I hear that you were greatly disappointed by aviation. And rightly point out that many others have reason to be. However, this doesn't mean that aviation work isn't the right or even ideal opportunity for others. Still.

I don't work in 121 aviation any more so maybe that's why I'm not as negative as I could be ... however, my experience there runs a full gamut of industry standard hardships. My one time peers now fly much larger craft and have larger wallets ... some of the setbacks were more personal than I prefer.

Maybe my words don't count because of "airline" in the url ... but aviation is a great place for me to work. And I know I could make more elsewhere. Whatever you say, it is right that Plan B should always be a consideration for anyone working in aviation.

Maybe I'm too humanist compared to the average pilot, but I'd say many need to consider a big picture where all things ebb and flow on a global level. I'd love to get paid more and would and will fight when right, however, there's a much bigger picture here. Much.

I think regional salaries are insulting but have heard too many a pilot (who merits better pay) who's happy to have just bought that cheapo ticket online. Correlation ... not the strongest with many. But really that illustrates a problem that this entire country needs to confront. Aviation, as often, is a great indicator. Canary in a coal mine ...

Yes, I actually favor great discretion when posting online.

I hear that you were greatly disappointed by aviation. And rightly point out that many others have reason to be. However, this doesn't mean that aviation work isn't the right or even ideal opportunity for others. Still.

I don't work in 121 aviation any more so maybe that's why I'm not as negative as I could be ... however, my experience there runs a full gamut of industry standard hardships. My one time peers now fly much larger craft and have larger wallets ... some of the setbacks were more personal than I prefer.

Maybe my words don't count because of "airline" in the url ... but aviation is a great place for me to work. And I know I could make more elsewhere. Whatever you say, it is right that Plan B should always be a consideration for anyone working in aviation.

Maybe I'm too humanist compared to the average pilot, but I'd say many need to consider a big picture where all things ebb and flow on a global level. I'd love to get paid more and would and will fight when right, however, there's a much bigger picture here. Much.

I think regional salaries are insulting but have heard too many a pilot (who merits better pay) who's happy to have just bought that cheapo ticket online. Correlation ... not the strongest with many. But really that illustrates a problem that this entire country needs to confront. Aviation, as often, is a great indicator. Canary in a coal mine ...

An important point where our opinions differ.

Aviation is doing fine and will survive this latest slowdown.

It's pilots wages and industry respect that is going over the horizon. I am glad that you have a job that you like. If you are home every night and earn a fair wage then you are doing better than most pilots.

SkyHigh

An important point where our opinions differ.

Aviation is doing fine and will survive this latest slowdown.

It's pilots wages and industry respect that is going over the horizon. I am glad that you have a job that you like. If you are home every night and earn a fair wage then you are doing better than most pilots.

SkyHigh

I'm not sure what point that is. If it's the Plan B thing ... Anytime you could be violated because someone got out of bed wrong, yeah, it's prudent. Anytime you need someone, particularly a government agency, to give you medical approval 2x a year, yeah, it's prudent. Etc, etc. It has ALWAYS taken diligence and vigilance.

You are not the mouthpiece for most pilots. I know many who are happy. Granted they could be happier. Couldn't we all :)

diligence and vigilance

Those two attributes won't be much good with $150 (or more?) per barrell oil.

Being a blacksmith, at one time, was probably a pretty good career but things have changed, just as they have for the airline industry - stuff nobody can control, no matter how diligent and how vigilant.

Call SH a "dooms dayer" if you want, I think he's just being pragmatic and seems to me to be correct in his assessments.

Those two attributes won't be much good with $150 (or more?) per barrell oil.

Being a blacksmith, at one time, was probably a pretty good career but things have changed, just as they have for the airline industry - stuff nobody can control, no matter how diligent and how vigilant.

Call SH a "dooms dayer" if you want, I think he's just being pragmatic and seems to me to be correct in his assessments.

It's not pragmatism to state one's opinion as a statement of facts based on presumption of another's values. Certain observations and judgements may be correct for individuals but are not gospel.

Blacksmithing? (I actually know some that make a living with it! :eek:) Yeah, I don't think that's as crucial to the modern world as aviation. Granted between oil and telecom, aviation may have a very different niche in the future. But even by mister doomsday's assessment aviation will survive. And then with those attributes already mentioned one will have the possibility of earning a living depending on one's standards. I for one don't have a problem with competition.

I still think it's a lot of unilateral assertion of subjective experience. And not even experience, disillusionment. Sour grapes. So it doesn't work for you or him (eg). Doesn't mean it doesn't work for me or that guy (eg). This industry represents my best current gain / expense option by a substantial factor. As it does for many others. I know pilot's with <1/3 calendar time making substantially more than me. It makes me a little grumbly sometimes, but my eyes are open and my steps are my own.

Oh wait, aviation does suck. Everyone quit. My leg.

I still think it's a lot of unilateral assertion of subjective experience. And not even experience, disillusionment. Sour grapes. So it doesn't work for you or him (eg). Doesn't mean it doesn't work for me or that guy (eg).

You're right about that. Everyone's view of the world is colored by their experiences. Mine were not good regarding the airline career topic at hand (F'd from AA 6 months after being told I'd retire rich).

I guess by virtue of the fact that these statements and discussions are posted on an internet board, in my view, makes them opinions by default. I don't take anything I read on the web as "fact" or unilateral assertions. They are opinions backed up by experiences. Your mileage may vary.

Back to the topic at hand - for a person just starting out on a career path, I think aviation is full of risk in terms of it's "pay out" at the end of the day (or end of your career). That risk may be worth taking depending on your love of flying, intestinal strength, family finances, luck at playing the lottery, etc.

At the very least I think we all agree a solid "Plan B" is a must.

I know someone who lost his high-paying computer job and couldn't get a steady job for a few years. Finally got one as a school teacher making less than half what he made before. No matter what age or what industry, a plan B is an excellent idea. Now I need to go find mine...

I know someone who lost his high-paying computer job and couldn't get a steady job for a few years. Finally got one as a school teacher making less than half what he made before. No matter what age or what industry, a plan B is an excellent idea. Now I need to go find mine...


As far as someone considering changing careers to aviation right now I would say that a good plan "A" is not to.

As for the rest of us having plans A through F would be a good idea. It is important to stay ahead of the changes if you can.

SkyHigh

You know there are parts of the aviation industry which are doing well and growing?

A successful aviation career isn't a fairweather pursuit. As with actual flying, it requires a detailed balance sheet of choices. I know those who went through many of these same hardships in every decade since WWII. And they probably knew some with the same stories before that (although actual life expectancy was more of an issue then). There are wildcard factors in this day and age (eg, oil), but there have been those as well.

If aviation ceases to be an crucial part of the 21st century world turning, we have much bigger things to worry about.

This is a pretty narrow margin industry for everyone ... (well except for mister golden parachute of course.) Act accordingly.

All pitfalls mentioned already are worthy of consideration. If it's the right job for you, do it. If you only want to do it to be rich, well, yeah, do something else.

As far as someone considering changing careers to aviation right now I would say that a good plan "A" is not to.

As for the rest of us having plans A through F would be a good idea. It is important to stay ahead of the changes if you can.

I know doctors, lawyers, and engineers who are beholden to their education for the next 2+ decades.

Me, a couple more years and paid off ... all from flying jobs ... makes about a decade of payments. And yes, a couple hardship deferments. Done at junior to middle seniority pay scales, and waaaaayyyy more time to live my life. Waaaaaaaaaayyyyy more. I consider myself prudent in finances. And able to ride out the industry as it was advertised to me before the last huge boom. As extremely variable.

Been having computer problems.

Someone said I gloat when I mention how great my job is. Skyhigh preaches the career isn't a worthy endevor. Should I keep quiet about my personal experience which is 180 degrees opposite from his?

I don't think so.

Times are tough right now. People say "leave the flying career, it's easy to make 100K and be home every night doing something else". I just don't know. I think times are tough all over and when you contrast the downfall of the career since the good old days, you could make the same argument for many careers since the Walmartization of America started. We need more of those have left aviation to come out, like Skyhigh, and tell us how great it is on the outside in today's world. I'm not buying it.

As far as a new forum for threads dealing with leaving the career. I'd be all for it. Great idea. Talk to the admins.

Been having computer problems.

Get a MacBook! Seriously.

Alright hijack over sorry.

Been having computer problems.

Someone said I gloat when I mention how great my job is. Skyhigh preaches the career isn't a worthy endevor. Should I keep quiet about my personal experience which is 180 degrees opposite from his?

I don't think so

I don't see anything wrong with any of us sharing the positive aspects of our career. However, I think some tact should be exercised when phrasing what needs to be said. Don't take this the wrong way, but I too have interpreted more than one of your posts as gloating. It also came off as a little egotistical.

With a lot of carriers flirting with the idea of furloughs, many on furlough or out of work completely, and many more facing the prospect of furlough in the not too distant future, I think the exercise of some sensitivity would be very prudent the next time you decide to share your "only 50 hours of flying" and how much you made last year. Personally, I think that should be kept to one's self, but that is just my opinion.

I also think we do a disservice to many people by encouraging them to spend or borrow tens of thousands of dollars to pursue an airline career that most likely will not pay off for them. If you want to share your QOL and salary experience with them as a way to encourage entering this profession, you should also balance it with the negatives associated with entering it as well. And right now the negatives far outweigh the positives for someone entering this career field.

I'm just as blessed as you to have one of the most secure and best jobs in the industry, but I'm not going to encourage someone to pursue this by showing them how much I made or how much or how little I flew.

We need more of those have left aviation to come out, like Skyhigh, and tell us how great it is on the outside in today's world. I'm not buying it.
You and I are among the few who still have a very desirable position in this field. When I visit threads other than those associated with the box haulers, life isn't as rosy over there. So in many instances life "on the outside" may very well be much better.

Personally, I think that should be kept to one's self, but that is just my opinion.



At the risk of piling on, I wholeheartedly agree that to divulge one's income or other such details is in extremely bad taste, even on an anonymous forum.

Some folks are more fortunate than others in terms of working conditions and/or compensation. But at the end of the day, none of it matters. We're all spinning around on this blue marble for but a few short years, all to meet with the same fate eventually. At that time, one doesn't judge one's life based on one's W-2s.

Been having computer problems.

Someone said I gloat when I mention how great my job is. Skyhigh preaches the career isn't a worthy endevor. Should I keep quiet about my personal experience which is 180 degrees opposite from his?

I don't think so.

Times are tough right now. People say "leave the flying career, it's easy to make 100K and be home every night doing something else". I just don't know. I think times are tough all over and when you contrast the downfall of the career since the good old days, you could make the same argument for many careers since the Walmartization of America started. We need more of those have left aviation to come out, like Skyhigh, and tell us how great it is on the outside in today's world. I'm not buying it.

As far as a new forum for threads dealing with leaving the career. I'd be all for it. Great idea. Talk to the admins.

I have yet to find a job that meet my experience level with that kind of salary.....and having me home every night.

My point is that when all the factors are taken into consideration aviation is a highly risky occupation that requires a large investment in time and money that does not offer a balanced return for the effort.

Not only do pilots face medicals, check rides and risk FAA violations; but we then have to run the gauntlet of mergers, furloughs, shutdowns and other professional hazards. Most of the outcome of your career lies totally into the hands of fate. All this to hopefully reach a major airline before you are 40 years old to maybe earn as much as a plumber.

From a purely financial stand point it simply is not worth the effort anymore. Especially when you take into consideration the path airline wages and benefits are taking. The outside world is definitely not easy however your efforts stand a much higher chance of receiving a worthwhile return and offers a future that is more able to be influenced by you.

Skyhigh

Not everybody chooses to fly based on the notion of making $200,000 a year.

My point is that when all the factors are taken into consideration aviation is a OFTEN highly risky occupation that requires a large investment in time and money that does not ALWAYS offer a balanced return for the effort.

Not only do pilots face medicals, check rides and risk FAA violations; but we then SOMETIMES have to run the gauntlet of mergers, furloughs, shutdowns and other professional hazards. Most of the outcome of your career lies totally into the hands of fate [SO DOES LIFE]. All this to hopefully reach a major airline before you are 40 years old to maybe earn as much as a plumber.

From a purely financial stand point it simply is not ALWAYS worth the effort anymore. Especially when you take into consideration the path airline wages and benefits are taking AT PRESENT. The outside world is definitely not easy however your efforts MIGHT stand a much higher chance of receiving a worthwhile return and offers a future that is more able to be influenced by you.

Skyhigh

ALWAYS with the hard statements aren't you SkyHigh. Guess you decided not to share another of the more uplifting stories from your youth and continue to spout only the negatives - and not even the possibility of good fortune - within the aviation industry. Heck - forget *good fortune* - how about making a nice wage and still enjoy their job? Imagine what you would say if I got on this thread and ONLY SAID GOOD THINGS about aviation.

USMCFLYR

If you have your PPL go to allatps.com 3 months and your instructing..6 months later yu can be on wth a regional...5 years your captain 10 and your making ok money...but you could reasonablybe on with a carrier by next january if youdo it right.

If you have your PPL go to allatps.com 3 months and your instructing..6 months later yu can be on wth a regional...5 years your captain 10 and your making ok money...but you could reasonablybe on with a carrier by next january if youdo it right.

Yep, and you'll only walk away about $70K in debt for a min wage job...:rolleyes:

aviation ... does not offer a balanced return for the effort.

I feel like I'm getting trolled something wicked here, but, this statement is just not true. It may not offer a particular person a balanced return. That's true of many things in life.

Please, SkyHigh, tell me what careers do offer a balanced return for the effort.

(By quick math I'm currently making 15% more and working 77% less (than outside aviation) ... roughly 5:1 advantage for my personal time)

"If you want to share your QOL and salary experience with them as a way to encourage entering this profession, you should also balance it with the negatives associated with entering it as well."

That's Skyhigh's job.

"Personally, I think that should be kept to one's self, but that is just my opinion."

When I make comments like that, they are DIRECTLY to refute a Skyhigh comment about how stupid we all are for being pilots. Take it in that context.

"but I'm not going to encourage someone to pursue this by showing them how much I made or how much or how little I flew"

Again, that's not what I'm trying to do nor were my comments in that context.

By the way folks. Take note that this thread has been moved to the new "Plan B" forum. This is the place to talk about leaving the career and/or how you have done since you left aviation.

Enjoy.

I feel like I'm getting trolled something wicked here, but, this statement is just not true. It may not offer a particular person a balanced return. That's true of many things in life.

Please, SkyHigh, tell me what careers do offer a balanced return for the effort.

(By quick math I'm currently making 15% more and working 77% less (than outside aviation) ... roughly 5:1 advantage for my personal time)

There are lots of careers that offer a much better balance of efforts to return. Plumber, electrician, Cop, Firefighter, accountant, army private to name a few because they require little investment for what they receive in return. There are plenty of enlisted military on this forum who not only have a nice and real retirement after 20 years but the military paid for college and grad school as well.

Pilots sit in the airplane 6 to 8 hours a day but then at the end of the day they usually don't go home but to a hotel instead. All time away from base counts as work. To suggest that it does not is like telling a security guard that since they sit and watch TV all night that it really isn't working either. Any hour that you give to the company is working. As such pilots work an average of 360 hours a month or 4320 hours a year. A typical 9 to 5er works 160 hours a month or 1920 hours a year.

Per Diem isn't pay. A 401K is not a real retirement. Increasingly pilots are being paid in job satisfaction and not in kind to the effort it took to get there.

SkyHigh

ALWAYS with the hard statements aren't you SkyHigh. Guess you decided not to share another of the more uplifting stories from your youth and continue to spout only the negatives - and not even the possibility of good fortune - within the aviation industry. Heck - forget *good fortune* - how about making a nice wage and still enjoy their job? Imagine what you would say if I got on this thread and ONLY SAID GOOD THINGS about aviation.

USMCFLYR


Sorry for the misunderstanding. I love aviation but honestly do not have much to offer other than that LSA seems cool. I don't believe that GA is going to be around in any meaningful way for the average guy in 20 years. I do not feel that airline flying has much of a future other than it will be easier to get a job doing whatever you want because the wages will drive away prospective pilots.

Things are changing rapidly. An airline career as I grew up with is going away (gone). I personally do not have any friends who after 20 years of effort are better off because of aviation. A few are still employed as pilots however a few others are dead now because of it too. Just about everyone who I maintain regular contact with is currently facing a furlough, seat loss or shutdown currently.

It isn't coming back either. we still haven't recovered yet from 9-11 and here we go again. As you know I was forced out of the industry five years ago and in that time I have discovered to my surprise that the outside world, in general, has a much better deal. I am on the sidelines with my rose colored glasses removed and offer a perspective that bridges both worlds. I just do not believe that the profession offers enough to be worth the price of entry anymore.


SkyHigh

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I love aviation but honestly do not have much to offer other than that LSA seems cool. I don't believe that GA is going to be around in any meaningful way for the average guy in 20 years. I do not feel that airline flying has much of a future other than it will be easier to get a job doing whatever you want because the wages will drive away prospective pilots.

Things are changing rapidly. An airline career as I grew up with is going away (gone). I personally do not have any friends who after 20 years of effort are better off because of aviation. A few are still employed as pilots however a few others are dead now because of it too. Just about everyone who I maintain regular contact with is currently facing a furlough, seat loss or shutdown currently.

It isn't coming back either. we still haven't recovered yet from 9-11 and here we go again. As you know I was forced out of the industry five years ago and in that time I have discovered to my surprise that the outside world, in general, has a much better deal. I am on the sidelines with my rose colored glasses removed and offer a perspective that bridges both worlds. I just do not believe that the profession offers enough to be worth the price of entry anymore.


SkyHigh

There is no misunderstanding here. I've followed your posts for quite some time. I know exactly what you are going to write on most posts. It is a repetitive mesage - a broken record as I forum member said. But once again I took the challenge to point out that your story is extremist in one way - far left or far right - I don't know in the aviation world which it is - but as I have told my kids - extremism in any manner is a bad thing - and you are hard over extreme in a bad way. I agree with some on here that say that what you have to say is worth sharing; especially to new people coming into the business, but you never portray anything else which is wrong. The edited version of what you said in the original post would at least make your point clear yet leave room for someone to think that there could be happiness - and there can.

You said this in the earlier post:
"...[an] army private to name a few because they require little investment for what they receive in return. There are plenty of enlisted military on this forum who not only have a nice and real retirement after 20 years but the military paid for college and grad school as well.

Pilots sit in the airplane 6 to 8 hours a day but then at the end of the day they usually don't go home but to a hotel instead. All time away from base counts as work."

I would submit that Army Private made quite an investment when he joined and will continue to make that investment through his initial commitment or beyond in the case that you point out, all the way to retirement; so he stayed around for 20 years of investment and in that time he put up with the things that you're average civilian airline pilot couldn't even imagine.
You want to talk work days or work hours? What do you think an Army Private would say to work working 6-8 hours a day right now, then spending the night in a hotel somewhere? How do you think that 360/month and 4320/year sounds to the guy who is finishing up his 12th month in country and just found out that they are staying for an additional month? And those are the war time deployment extremes, but there are plenty of long hours and time away from home during the peacetime years too.

My stats for the last month:
I flew 24 times in May for a total of 34.1 hours. Out of that 31 day month, I worked 26 days and was gone away from home 9 of those days (followed immediately by 6 more days in the beginning of June).

By your assessment I should be hating life and ready to move on to being a plumber where I can at least make a descent wage, spend more quality time at home, and feel like I am contributing something to humanity. But I'm not ready to leave yet. If I could - I'd spend the next 20 years doing the exact same.

So I'm not sure what your metric for a successful and satisfying career is but obviously it isn't the same for everyone. How about for once you end a post with something along the lines of "The current aviation career field isn't for me but it may be for you." I actually like the quotes that say 'Your [gas] mileage may vary"

I know what your response will be to this post. You and I have had this conversation before. For three posts now I have asked you to share another of your more uplifting stories from your past. But either you used up your one success story the first time or you just can't bring yourself to say anything good about the industry; which if that is the case makes your opinions tainted. I would MUCH better understand your point of view and get something out of your posts if I felt that you could pass on the goods and the others of the industry to an aspiring professional pilot. We all need to hear both sides to make that informed decision and then decide what is best for US.

Balanced coverage SkyHigh. Why is that so hard for you to communicate?

USMCFLYR

There is no misunderstanding here. I've followed your posts for quite some time. I know exactly what you are going to write on most posts. It is a repetitive mesage - a broken record as I forum member said. But once again I took the challenge to point out that your story is extremist in one way - far left or far right - I don't know in the aviation world which it is - but as I have told my kids - extremism in any manner is a bad thing - and you are hard over extreme in a bad way. I agree with some on here that say that what you have to say is worth sharing; especially to new people coming into the business, but you never portray anything else which is wrong. The edited version of what you said in the original post would at least make your point clear yet leave room for someone to think that there could be happiness - and there can.

You said this in the earlier post:
"...[an] army private to name a few because they require little investment for what they receive in return. There are plenty of enlisted military on this forum who not only have a nice and real retirement after 20 years but the military paid for college and grad school as well.

Pilots sit in the airplane 6 to 8 hours a day but then at the end of the day they usually don't go home but to a hotel instead. All time away from base counts as work."

I would submit that Army Private made quite an investment when he joined and will continue to make that investment through his initial commitment or beyond in the case that you point out, all the way to retirement; so he stayed around for 20 years of investment and in that time he put up with the things that you're average civilian airline pilot couldn't even imagine.
You want to talk work days or work hours? What do you think an Army Private would say to work working 6-8 hours a day right now, then spending the night in a hotel somewhere? How do you think that 360/month and 4320/year sounds to the guy who is finishing up his 12th month in country and just found out that they are staying for an additional month? And those are the war time deployment extremes, but there are plenty of long hours and time away from home during the peacetime years too.

My stats for the last month:
I flew 24 times in May for a total of 34.1 hours. Out of that 31 day month, I worked 26 days and was gone away from home 9 of those days (followed immediately by 6 more days in the beginning of June).

By your assessment I should be hating life and ready to move on to being a plumber where I can at least make a descent wage, spend more quality time at home, and feel like I am contributing something to humanity. But I'm not ready to leave yet. If I could - I'd spend the next 20 years doing the exact same.

So I'm not sure what your metric for a successful and satisfying career is but obviously it isn't the same for everyone. How about for once you end a post with something along the lines of "The current aviation career field isn't for me but it may be for you." I actually like the quotes that say 'Your [gas] mileage may vary"

I know what your response will be to this post. You and I have had this conversation before. For three posts now I have asked you to share another of your more uplifting stories from your past. But either you used up your one success story the first time or you just can't bring yourself to say anything good about the industry; which if that is the case makes your opinions tainted. I would MUCH better understand your point of view and get something out of your posts if I felt that you could pass on the goods and the others of the industry to an aspiring professional pilot. We all need to hear both sides to make that informed decision and then decide what is best for US.

Balanced coverage SkyHigh. Why is that so hard for you to communicate?

USMCFLYR

I believe that my role is to provide balance. The average line pilot is not going to waste another minute of his life on anything else that is aviation related. Guys who have been forced or choose to quit generally do not feel like sharing their experiences either. They are usually more interested in trying to forget their aviation background as fast as they can.

People who venture onto aviation forums I believe are mostly over the top aviation guys who do not represent the average opinion or experience of professional pilots. As such it is my job to be here to provide some balance against the cheer staff.

My guess is that you have a very satisfying job in the military and you do not worry about paying your bills or if you will have a job next week. Working 27 days a month is much easier to take when your other needs are being met. I am certainly not against working hard however there needs to be adequate compensation in trade. Right now there are a few hundred guys out there who are your age and have similar aviation background who are on the street with little hope of being able to replace their former incomes as pilots. Your perspectives change a lot under those circumstances.

My suggestion is that you can not relate to what I am writing about since you have not had to experience it yet.

SkyHigh

I believe that my role is to provide balance.

People who venture onto aviation forums I believe are mostly over the top aviation guys who do not represent the average opinion or experience of professional pilots. As such it is my job to be here to provide some balance against the cheer staff.

My guess is that you have a very satisfying job in the military and you do not worry about paying your bills or if you will have a job next week. My suggestion is that you can not relate to what I am writing about since you have not had to experience it yet.

SkyHigh

AH! And therein lies the rub SkyHigh. You are NOT balanced. You are drastically one sided. There is NO ONE on this forum who is the "CHEER STAFF" the way you are the negative nelly. Those who speak well of the aviation industry always throw in the "your mileage may vary" disclaimer. They speak of how things have worked for them and that it might not work out that well for everyone. They admit that luck and good fortune might have played into the mix somehwere along the line.

"People who venture onto aviation forums I believe are mostly over the top aviation guys who do not represent the average opinion or experience of professional pilots."

Really? I doubt I have been on this forum for as long as you but I feel that just about every experience level possible is on this forum. The good and the bad. The cheery and the glum; but most will tell it from both sides. Not you though.

"My guess is that you have a very satisfying job in the military and you do not worry about paying your bills or if you will have a job next week. My suggestion is that you can not relate to what I am writing about since you have not had to experience it yet."

You're right. So far I have had a very satisfying career. I don't even have many money worries right now. My mom taught me financial responsibility at an early age and I've put those teachings to good use so far. I also chose a first career field that for the most part had job stability. But I worry about my transition just like most military to civilian folks. I worry about going into a field that is struggling right now and the future is uncertain. I worry that I don't have a Plan B-F like you suggested sometime ago.

You miss the point in this thread entirely saying that I can't relate to what you are writing because I am writing about your opinion and the way that you express it - biased - not balanced. I don't know much of anything about about the civilian aviation world; that is why I joined this forum to learn and be better prepared for what I hope is a successful second career. But I'm old enough and experienced enough to have an opinion about how you express yourself and the unbalanced advice that you give those people on this forum who are trying to make an informed decision.

I really hate to say this - but you know what you remind me of? You remind me of those young EX-military kids that got into trouble and then get out and go back home and all they can do it tell all their friends how messed up the military is and how they can't do anything right and how the leadership is so screwed and they don't care and blah blah blah. When the real truth is that they were nothing but trouble immature teens who couldn't handle the responsibility given to them and constantly got into trouble and were most often NJP'ed so many times that they were eventually characterized as unfit for military service.
When I talk to young people about the military - I like to think that I paint both sides of the coin. This is one reason why I'll never be a recruiter. I tell them the good along with the bad - but at least it is balanced. The military folks on this forum will speak poorly of that Commander that only fills their ears with all the good stuff about the military for instance - but the person who spouts only the negative is someone who is held up as telling the truth and presenting the other side of the story. Now that is balanced.:rolleyes:

USMCFLYR

As I stated earlier I really don't have anything good to say. I though you would have picked up on that by now. I am sure that there are some good things but I don't have any to offer right now, so I will leave that up to you.

I do not believe that aviation (civilian world) is a good plan at all from the lifestyle and financial perspective. I have nothing positive to say in that regards at all except that aviation is like the lottery in that occasionally people are able to hit the jackpot. The occasional winner is then paraded in front of the masses to inspire another generation of gamblers.

I also will add that there are people in this world who fit aviation like a glove and I have nothing against that either. However from the perspective of the average job who wishes to have a career that offers security, financial rewards and the promise of good family life QOL then aviation is a big risk.

I don't know anything about you personally however I have a long time friend who is an ex-fighter jock who just left a good job at the majors to return to a full time desk job with the military. When I asked him why he told me that he wanted to have a better home life and to gain a better retirement than what the airlines offered.

SkyHigh

You know there are parts of the aviation industry which are doing well and growing?

I'm not debating anything.

I'm just going to throw this in every so often for that balanced effect ...

I have a 5:1 pay and time advantage on my prior non-aviation job, not including per diem or 401k or other financial benefits. I spend about 1 night away every two weeks. I am on my first year pay scale. I stand to double this in three years and work at a growing company.

"aviation is like the lottery in that occasionally people are able to hit the jackpot. The occasional winner is then paraded in front of the masses to inspire another generation of gamblers"

Well, I don't see it that way. It's not nearly that bad. But I'm not in Sky's shoes, so whatever....

Really. Being "a winner" is so different for so many folks. There are guys making 25% of what a UPS Capt makes that enjoy their jobs. They are winners in my eyes. To each his own.

It would have been very difficult for Sky to have been happy in this biz considering his expectations. Even being a pilot for Southwest isn't worthy of his time. Very high expectations, indeed....

"aviation is like the lottery in that occasionally people are able to hit the jackpot. The occasional winner is then paraded in front of the masses to inspire another generation of gamblers"

Well, I don't see it that way. It's not nearly that bad. But I'm not in Sky's shoes, so whatever....

Really. Being "a winner" is so different for so many folks. There are guys making 25% of what a UPS Capt makes that enjoy their jobs. They are winners in my eyes. To each his own.

It would have been very difficult for Sky to have been happy in this biz considering his expectations. Even being a pilot for Southwest isn't worthy of his time. Very high expectations, indeed....

Maybe my expectations were too high? All I really wanted was three legs a day, the promise of an eventual base in the northwest, to make more than a firefighter or UPS driver and to be able to be home more than away.

Skyhigh

Dreams don't have a cost benefit analysis attached to them.

Money isn't everything.

Do you want to be 40 years old sitting in the back of an ambulance dying, wishing you had chased that dream?

Only you can answer what will make you happy! We all only have one shot at this thing called life! What are you going to do with your one shot?

That being said. Listen to what many people have said, go into it with your eyes wide open and a positive mental attitude.

This is a tough industry, with a ton of time away from home, but seniority has it's priveledges, so if you jump do it as quickly as you can.

Hey! There's another option... I call it the "Deferred Life Plan". I'm 42. I've raised my kids (one in college this year spending money I saved; one in college year after next, spending money I saved) I've owned 12 different airplanes; still own a Pitts. No debt to speak of. My wife (3rd one) is supportive of flying. I now have my ATP and 4,000+ hours of hard-earned time, mostly Part91. I bought my time, my tickets, and even an A&P. I'm a Vice President for a massive software company that most people would recognize...Yes, I make WAY more that low six-figures. And, I intend to execute the plan I've had since my first wife declared that she decided not to get a job to let me go fly 15yrs ago...

My Grandfather was a TWA Captain at 23...He had three sons; my Dad was the Oldest and became an industrial engineer and hated it all his life. His two younger brothers? One was a Navy P3 guy who got out and went to Braniff...furloughed twice...Carnival Airlines (yuck)...and finally Southwest, where he retired last year. The youngest brother flew as a CFI, then a Turbo Commander 135, then Saudi Arabian Airlines (where he had to hide in the E&E to get out the country at the end of his contract), then hired by National, who was bought by Pan Am, who was bought by Delta, where he's a happy 767ER Capt out of ATL.

I have one younger brother, who at age 32 quit his industrial engineering job with UPS to go to Comair Academy to get all his ratings and is now a very happy FO for Chatauqua (sp?). So don't think you can't do whateve the h*ll you decide to do, (and have company doing it).

I'm not where I think I need to go fly for a regional...maybe. But, if I can get on with a corporate or crew leasing company now that my kids are almost grown and thriving, I'll be very happy. No, I don't have massive amounts (or even modest amounts) of money saved. I spent it on two divorces and my sons (who've always lived with me).

You can fly anytime, at any age. Today I was lucky enough to check-out in the MD-11 (my best friend is an instructor). It was awesome...And, if I can say so...I didn't embarass myself too much. So, fire away. I know there are some huge lumps that we take being apart of this avaition community. It's not the life my Grandfather enjoyed flying Connies Trans-Atlantic. But, aviation is still an addiction that's only treated by repeatedly advancing the throttles and rotating!

I now have my ATP and 4,000+ hours of hard-earned time, mostly Part91. :rolleyes::confused:



Today I was lucky enough to check-out in the MD-11 (my best friend is an instructor). It was awesome...And, if I can say so...I didn't embarass myself too much. So, fire away. !

What do you mean you "checked out" in an md-11? maybe getting you're type in one is getting checked out.

To some aviation is a dream. To others the dream can transform into reality. And, that reality can evolve into a nightmare.

I love flying. As a dream it is sublime. However when trying to support a family on what it provides and the lifestyle that comes with it is not so fun.

I think that aviation is best served as a hobby job after a solid retirement is in the bank and the kids are gone.

SkyHigh

I got into flying because I thought that it was a worthy profession that would support my family and I to a level that was better than if I hadn't taken the effort in the first place. I thought that it would result in more time at home and a overall better quality of life. I expected employers to respect and appreciate my efforts and to be rewarded for my service.

I had no idea what a test of endurance and open ended sacrifice the profession would be and become. In no way was I ever interested in a quest. As with my college peers I expected to work for a few years out of college at experience building then move on to a solid income producing job while still in my mid-20's.

Instead what I experienced was living like a college student into my 30's while my non-aviation friends were buying homes and funding retirement accounts. Opportunities for the better jobs are scarce. Luck, contacts and perseverance play the largest roles in ones career outcome.

As a dream and hobby flying is difficult to beat. However as a place to invest your financial future and to build a healthy middle class life upon it is a poor choice.

SKyHigh

More of the same Sky. It didnt work out for YOU.... and many others. I bet if we went and looked in the right places we could find lots of EX policeman and fireman or nearly any other profession... WHY... because many times those going in at an early age really do not know what they are getting into....and that goes for MANY professions across the board....

Herc, back about 20 years ago, I DID know what I was getting into. Back when regional jobs were hard to get, and you HAD to flight instruct to move on to the next level. I DID understand what the salaries were, and the qol that the majors offered. The salaries were high including generous pensions, and big fat 401k building capabilities. There were no pilot mills yet. There was only Embry Riddle, and a few others. Back then, I would have died knowing i'd be able to fly a Shorts 360 someday. Nowadays, there are numerous CRJ captains in their 20's who complain about everything under the sun. There WAS a much better outlook than their is now. Having said that, and I'll say it again, I would never turn anyone away from this profession. There is a love that only a pilot can know for aviation and flying. That can't be taken away from the young folks, or the older career changers.

Heck, even Sky himself said he's always thinking of ways to get back into flying everyday. I am too. (even though i'm kinda still in it being a sim/ground instructor). And Sky, my man, you should find a way to at least fly part time. Some of the folks on here are correct. It ain't THAT bad in aviation. Although i'm seeking other opportunities right now such as finishing my degree, and looking to get into some kind of small business to own, I'm keeping my options open if the right flying opportunity comes along. SkyHigh, I think you ought to keep your flying options open too. It might help you have some more peace. Maybe when your beautiful kids get older? Maybe sooner than that. USMC, and the others, i'm excited for you, and wish you success.

Nowadays, there are numerous CRJ captains in their 20's who complain about everything under the sun.

True. Most, or at least many, have never had a "real" job until they got hired by an airline. I would love to have an airline pilot's schedule. I don't think I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I had more than five days off in a month.

$60k and 13 days off a month? Only a dream.

More of the same Sky. It didnt work out for YOU.... and many others. I bet if we went and looked in the right places we could find lots of EX policeman and fireman or nearly any other profession... WHY... because many times those going in at an early age really do not know what they are getting into....and that goes for MANY professions across the board....

It didn't work out for you either until you had an outside source of income. Like my post mentioned aviation is better as a hobby job. You are living proof of that example.

I do no think it is fair or accurate of you to sell a contradictory position to mine. You are an airline refuge just like the rest of us. I too have had opportunities to fly as an FO for a part 135 outfit but I need to make a living for my family.

Aviation dose not work out for many because the pay, lifestyle and future are inadequate. Other professions have their challenges as well but nothing like what flying demands. You might be enjoying the fun side of flying now, but if you were in your mid-30's and trying to support a stay at home wife and kids on what the profession offers you would not be very happy.

Skyhigh

True. Most, or at least many, have never had a "real" job until they got hired by an airline. I would love to have an airline pilot's schedule. I don't think I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I had more than five days off in a month.

$60k and 13 days off a month? Only a dream.

It is a dream for most pilots as well. However to be fair some are getting every day off right now (furlough).

Get a job that works 4 ten hour shifts a week and you will have much more quality time off than most airline pilots. You could also work double shifts and take the rest of the week off.

Skyhigh

"Aviation dose not work out for many because the pay, lifestyle and future are inadequate."

But just above,

"$60k and 13 days off a month? Only a dream."

My problem with Skyhigh is that he bashes the career, without exception, and without realizing that not everyone is in his shoes. Not everyone needs to be home every night not everyone has to work for an airline with a base in their home state. These are nice things to have, but some will find the sacrifice worth the reward, and might be quite pleased with the career that Skyhigh so desperately considers unworthy.

To each his own....

Herc, back about 20 years ago, I DID know what I was getting into. Back when regional jobs were hard to get, and you HAD to flight instruct to move on to the next level. I DID understand what the salaries were, and the qol that the majors offered. The salaries were high including generous pensions, and big fat 401k building capabilities. There were no pilot mills yet. There was only Embry Riddle, and a few others. Back then, I would have died knowing i'd be able to fly a Shorts 360 someday. Nowadays, there are numerous CRJ captains in their 20's who complain about everything under the sun. There WAS a much better outlook than their is now. Having said that, and I'll say it again, I would never turn anyone away from this profession. There is a love that only a pilot can know for aviation and flying. That can't be taken away from the young folks, or the older career changers.

Heck, even Sky himself said he's always thinking of ways to get back into flying everyday. I am too. (even though i'm kinda still in it being a sim/ground instructor). And Sky, my man, you should find a way to at least fly part time. Some of the folks on here are correct. It ain't THAT bad in aviation. Although i'm seeking other opportunities right now such as finishing my degree, and looking to get into some kind of small business to own, I'm keeping my options open if the right flying opportunity comes along. SkyHigh, I think you ought to keep your flying options open too. It might help you have some more peace. Maybe when your beautiful kids get older? Maybe sooner than that. USMC, and the others, i'm excited for you, and wish you success.


I have had some flying opportunities over the last few years. One place hired me and sent me through king air school but did not end up buying the plane. Another place offered to hire me instead but the pay was 30K per year and I had to work in the potato shed when I wasn't flying.

I had a job offer a few summers ago to do some seasonal contract flying, but they would not give me the time off I needed. During a training mission the plane crashed and the guy who took my job died along with a few other company principals.

I could go on. The problem is that most part time local jobs demand too much for to little. I can't afford to sit around an FBO all day waiting for students and I am not in a position to be able to leave at the drop of a hat for a charter flight that pays $22 a flight hour.

Yesterday I flew my 150. I climbed up to 8000 feet and encountered a bird the size of a robin flying up there. I found it as extremely odd. The bird was alone. It was early in the day and there were no thermals, no wind. I wonder just what he was doing up there.

SkyHigh

"Aviation dose not work out for many because the pay, lifestyle and future are inadequate."

But just above,

"$60k and 13 days off a month? Only a dream."

My problem with Skyhigh is that he bashes the career, without exception, and without realizing that not everyone is in his shoes. Not everyone needs to be home every night not everyone has to work for an airline with a base in their home state. These are nice things to have, but some will find the sacrifice worth the reward, and might be quite pleased with the career that Skyhigh so desperately considers unworthy.

To each his own....

I realize that some people do not feel the need to be home. They may not care about money or retirement. Others would eagerly leave the country and live in a foreign land in order to satisfy their flying dreams. and to each his own.

However my point is that most are evaluating aviation against other more normal professions. Flight schools and flying magazines allow people to assume income and lifestyle expectations. The average person would not wish to leave home, does have real income needs and assumes that they will have a bright and stable financial future.

People need to know what they are getting into. Aviation is not like most other professions that demand a similar level of sacrifices. I would not dream of dissuading the fringe element that thrives on what an aviation career can offer. However others are blowing a fortune and many years of their lives on a dead end.

SkyHigh

My 150 has an IFR capable GPS. All it needs is a GPS CDI to make it IFR legal. It would cost around $1500 to get installed and certified. Is it a waste of money in a Cessna 150M?

Skyhigh

My 150 has an IFR capable GPS. All it needs is a GPS CDI to make it IFR legal. It would cost around $1500 to get installed and certified. Is it a waste of money in a Cessna 150M?

Skyhigh

All depends on where you live...

I've gone back and forth on airplane ownership, and an IFR 150 would be my first choice given budget limits.

I'm at sea level in a temperate clime, so power would not be critical, but the marine layer makes a non-IFR bird useless. I'm not sure I'd want to use a 150 for anything more demanding the penetrating a 1000' deck.

All depends on where you live...

I've gone back and forth on airplane ownership, and an IFR 150 would be my first choice given budget limits.

I'm at sea level in a temperate clime, so power would not be critical, but the marine layer makes a non-IFR bird useless. I'm not sure I'd want to use a 150 for anything more demanding the penetrating a 1000' deck.

Yea, that is how I feel about it. I live in a mountainous area and would not like to tempt actual IFR in a 150 however it would make a heck of an IFR trainer with a VOR, ILS, Marker beacon and IFR GPS.

The prices of Cessna 150's are on the rise I have been told. The price of fuel, cheap dollar and possibility of being included into the LSA category have put upwards pressure on prices.

I have heard that foreign countries have been buying up 152's and 150's since the dollar was so weak and taking them out of the country.

Skyhigh