Airline Pilot Forums

This should be entertaining and informative.

This should be entertaining and informative.

But not scientific.

This should be entertaining and informative.






Yes you're right. However, I'd say half the people responding are not even Delta or Northwest pilots...

This should be entertaining and informative.

Great idea!

Looking at the trend above, it looks like it will pass by a landslide at both airlines...

only 4 posts on this ?63 votes? and how many NWA and DAL folks do we have in here?:)





One more round for the house !

only 4 posts on this ?63 votes?

What, we can't vote more than once?

What, we can't vote more than once?
Rofl ,of course you can lol!:eek:

I have not voted yet. There are strong reasons to vote no and strong reasons to vote yes. For someone at NWA its a no brainer. They were already locked into a contract of similiar duration with no raises or other improvements. If you are at Delta the situation is very different. The contract pre LOA 19 had raises from 1.5 to 6% each year and was amendable in Spring 2010. Openers were to be exchanged next spring. Why give that up for a long duration contract with minimal improvements. A yes or no vote has nothing to do with NWA verses DAL. Its the lack of real improvements for the Delta pilots that has many thinking of voting no. The duration is also a big factor.

Real Improvements? Look at the industry right now, these are real improvements. This is an opportunity for all of us to prosper with this new airline. By pushing it off you only delay the inevitable, divide the soon to be 12000 strong unified pilot group, and possibly get less improvements as the industry continues to nosedive. Our negotiating leverage is only going down, the idea of getting more right now realistically isnt going to happen imho. This is the time to take it and run while also bringing together our 2 pilot groups and move forward so we can get real improvements when the negotiating arm is strengthened. Read what your MEC put out, the ability to get more is not there and honestly they do have ALL the facts to make that judgement.

Discuss ;)

I have talked with my MEC reps at length. They agree we have given up the chance of a retirement restoration for dead zoners with this contract. Its a bitter pill to swallow. At the combined airline there will be over 100,000 employees. Only the original Delta pilots will have sacrificed their retirement. Does not seem quite right if you are one of those individuals.

the big issue i have seen from the NWA and DAL side is that if this gets voted down it pretty much means any chance of a negotiated SLI will go out the window and force on arbitration. None of us want that.

the big issue i have seen from the NWA and DAL side is that if this gets voted down it pretty much means any chance of a negotiated SLI will go out the window and force on arbitration. None of us want that.

Both groups approving the JPWA does not guarantee a negotiated SLI, SP92.

Far from it. I'd rather have a more substantial contract--even if it's just COLA+, shorter amendable date, and far more aggressive profit-sharing.

I'm fairly confident in the outcome, should arbitration become necessary.

I'm not at all confident in the JPWA.

Agreed, Spiff, but it really comes down to how you want this pilot group to be unified. Nothing more. Not anti-ALPA, not we deserved more, etc. It really is just about how bad someone wants good blood instead of bad blood.

I understand. I am fairly anti-JPWA and will vote against it, but if it passes (as I it probably will) and when the SLI has been decided, I will be very glad to move along as one company without bitterness or a grudge.

Until we get there, though, I wish my union would be more concerned about the pilots they are representing (i.e., you and me), and less concerned with helping managment and NALPA.

I have to agree with sailingfun when he says that for a NWA guy this contract is a "no brainer". Vote NO!

Under this agreement we lose the following:

1. Reserve guarantee drops 5 hrs/mo
2. Over 80 hr. premium pay
3. For many, sick leave balances in excess of 1500 hrs
4. Substantial increase in retirees medical insurance
5. No "call-in-honest" program
6. A sub-par jumpseat policy
7. No FMLV. (Unless the current Legislation passes)
8. Single category bidding (Not seperate Block/Reserve)
9. Monthly Maximums reduced which negates any pay raise
10. Contributions to the DC Fund reduced or eliminated until later years

As far as retirement goes, it is true that the NWA guys still have their DB plan. For some it is adequate. For many it is not. This benefit could very well be terminated in the event of another BK filing by DL.

Also, please remember that the DAL pilot group chose to terminate their DB plan so that the senior guys would leave and allow the more junior quys to move up. The NWA guys voted for a worse contract to keep their DB plan in tack with the expectation that their targeted DC plan would make up the difference for the more junior guys.

Having said all this, I still believe this will pass but it is not the windfall for NWA pilots that our Delta Brothers whould like us to believe it is.

Sounds like somebody's trying to prep the arbitration battlefield...good luck. :rolleyes:

Both groups approving the JPWA does not guarantee a negotiated SLI, SP92.

Far from it. I'd rather have a more substantial contract--even if it's just COLA+, shorter amendable date, and far more aggressive profit-sharing.

I'm fairly confident in the outcome, should arbitration become necessary.

I'm not at all confident in the JPWA.

NO, but it does guarantee arbitration. If it gets voted down by one side the SLI process will go to the traditional integration process, and you will be leaving your fate up to arbitration. Then we'll have to listen to you whine even more.:rolleyes:

Sounds like somebody's trying to prep the arbitration battlefield...good luck. :rolleyes:


Do you read anything your MEC puts out? It doesnt appear that you do fwiw. Honest question?

SP92, it doesn't matter what anyone does (or does not) read, or what the facts are (or aren't)...in your world, you're always right on everything! It does get a bit old. :p

SP92, it doesn't matter what anyone does (or does not) read, or what the facts are (or aren't)...in your world, you're always right on everything! It does get a bit old. :p

MR. SPLIFF,
What gets old is people shooting from the hip and assuming the worst (you :p) and people who aren't discipline enough to educate themselves on the goings on. I DO read everything and i mean NWA and DAL information. It DOES matter if you read it or not. If you dont you're worthless in an educated debate. Its not about ME or YOU being right its about ALL of us reading and UNDERSTANDING what is going on. Simple as that :p

MR. SPLIFF,
What gets old is people shooting from the hip and assuming the worst (you ) and people who aren't discipline enough to educate themselves on the goings on. I DO read everything and i mean NWA and DAL information. It DOES matter if you read it or not. If you dont you're worthless in an educated debate. Its not about ME or YOU being right its about ALL of us reading and UNDERSTANDING what is going on. Simple as that


Thanks for the lecture, perfesser.

I've told you this numerous times: Just because someone disagrees with your narrow (and rather biased) view, does not mean he is wrong, stupid, or uninformed.

Really. [insert disingenuous emoticon here]

Thanks for the lecture, perfesser.

BTW, I can assure you I am every bit as informed as I possibly can be.

I've told you this before: Someone who disagrees with your narrow view is not necessarily wrong.

LMAO you couldnt resist a jab could you? You just had to go back and edit your post!! Wake up champ we are all about to be on the same team. I dont care if you have a difference of opinion. I just ask you to explain your perspective and you assume that means i think you CANT have a difference of opinion. Stop acting childish Mr. Spliff.

I hope so. Question: do you think your MEC isnt being honest with you that this is the best deal we can get right now? Do you think they aren't working in your best interests? I just wonder why you disagree with their educated perspectives and opinions? Thanks for an honest answer and good discussion

I think "my" (and I use the term "my" loosely) MEC is trying too hard to address management's and NALPA's shortcomings--at the expense of their constituents (DAL pilot group).

I think "my" (and I use the term "my" loosely) MEC is trying too hard to address management's and NALPA's shortcomings--at the expense of their constituents (DAL pilot group).


Who apparently, in your eyes, can do no wrong.:rolleyes:

No...I'm just saying, DALPA should be, first and foremost, concerned with getting DAL pilots, not NWA pilots, the best possible deal.

I don't really care one way or the other whether current NWA pilots like/dislike whatever JPWA is up for approval. And neither should my MEC.

No...I'm just saying, DALPA should be, first and foremost, concerned with getting DAL pilots, not NWA pilots, the best possible deal.

I don't really care one way or the other whether current NWA pilots like/dislike whatever JPWA is up for approval. And neither should my MEC.


Fortunately YOUR MEC has integrity and is acting like a union. After all we are in the same union right? Thats the problem with ALPA having separate MECs per pilot group because of people like you like to pin one against the other when it comes time to work and act like a union together. Thanks for proving my conclusions that you are only concerned with YOU and not the Company, the union, or whats best for the collective pilot group.

No...I'm just saying, DALPA should be, first and foremost, concerned with getting DAL pilots, not NWA pilots, the best possible deal.

I don't really care one way or the other whether current NWA pilots like/dislike whatever JPWA is up for approval. And neither should my MEC.


The me, me, me attitude that continues to contribute to the destruction of the industry. And your MEC, based on the current economic conditions, got one of the best deals they can. Look around, wake up. The economy is in the toilet. Whether you like it or not, we will all be DAL pilots soon. And your(and I use the term loosely:rolleyes:) MEC has to NEGOTIATE. That means take some, and GIVE some.

After all we are in the same union right?

OK, SP:

When you were skeptical of DALPA after they negotiated LOA 19--when NALPA (and you) were out in the cold--we were "all in the same union" at that time too, right? Not according to you. You were fairly militant in your condemnation of LOA 19 and DALPA.

I don't remember you being terribly "fraternal" or conciliatory at that time. So kindly spare me your "teamwork" whitewash. You were quite concerned with yourself at the time, were you not?

Amazing "attitude adjustment" after you got a few bucks pointed in your direction.

That means take some, and GIVE some.

Or "take nothing, give everything."

You were also not on board with LOA 19, and felt free to bash DALPA...until it profited you personally.

Now you lecture me on "doing what's best for the team?" You, sir, are a hypocrite.

Anyone who says he's not in this for his personal enrichment is a liar.

I didn't join this industry to make management--or other pilots--rich at my expense. How about you?

No...I'm just saying, DALPA should be, first and foremost, concerned with getting DAL pilots, not NWA pilots, the best possible deal.

I don't really care one way or the other whether current NWA pilots like/dislike whatever JPWA is up for approval. And neither should my MEC.

Is it possible that you got the "best possible deal" with LOA 19 and now the JPWA is mainly for the NWA pilots to have a post merger announcement agreement in place also?

Not to put you on the spot, but what would make this a deal that you would vote for? Keep in mind that most of your pre JPWA posts were all about how great DAL management and the DAL MEC were. They were so trustworthy and would NEVER do any harm to even the smallest member of the Delta family. You know, how they would take care of you and you were one big happy family. Remember it was:

-Our planes,
-Our growth,
-Our money,
-Our finances,
-Our routes,
-Our pilots,
-Our management team,
-Our CEO

I mean EVERYTHING was great at Delta Air Lines and they could do no worng. Now all of a sudden you don't trust them.

So what's changed? LOA 19 is still in place and is effectively the agreement you are voting on now with this JPWA. So, what is so different about the JPWA and LOA 19 that you would vote against it now?

I know you voted for LOA 19 because you were the main chearleader for it when it came out. So now you are against the JPWA? Come on dude, admit it. Whats changed? The only thing that has changed is your perception of who is on top for the SLI process.

Once you get past that, you can stop making excuses for why you won't vote for the JPWA- because you want the upper hand in the SLI.

New K Now

OK, SP:

When you were skeptical of DALPA after they negotiated LOA 19--and NALPA (and you) were out in the cold--we were "all in the same union" at that time too, right? Not according to you. You were fairly militant in your condemnation of LOA 19 and DALPA.

I don't remember you being terribly "fraternal" or conciliatory at that time. So kindly spare me your "teamwork" whitewash. You were quite concerned with yourself at the time, were you not?

Amazing what happened after you got a few bucks headed your way.

Well that is what i just said isnt it? I clearly stated that i was skeptical. I am impressed now though that both mecs are working together.

It has nothing to do with a pay raise for me. I honestly dont care if we get a pay raise or not. Whats important to me RIGHT NOW is that our two pilot groups dont get divided and that OUR company becomes a viable company for all of us to hang our hats. I am a more interested in getting this career back in the drivers seat as far as the control we could have. Our soon to be large pilot group, if united, could really prove to be an industry and union changer. That to me is more impressive then short term financial gains. A strong union and pilot group enables us to truly become successful long term. Its about looking past your nose.

If we become a united pilot group you better believe we will and should get an industry leading contact when the time comes. When all 12000+ thousand of us go for contract talks I will be right there next to you looking for big gains. Unite the groups, build the warchest, build a great company and that my friend is true success that will lead to more money for us all ;)

I was not a cheerleader for LOA 19 as a final draft. I was a cheerleader for having an insurance policy against a disgruntled, irrational, and hypocritical MEC (NALPA).

LOA 19 was meant to be an insurance policy and a baseline, not a joint contract.

I honestly dont care if we get a pay raise or not.

Bull****!!! Do you honestly expect anyone to buy that?? If so, you're the only one at your company who thinks that.

Or "take nothing, give everything."

You were also not on board with LOA 19, and felt free to bash DALPA...until it profited you personally.

Now you lecture me on "doing what's best for the team?" You, sir, are a hypocrite.

Anyone who says he's not in this for his personal enrichment is a liar.

I didn't join this industry to make management--or other pilots--rich at my expense. How about you?

Wow you have no concept of Unity or being part of a union do you? Most of us our looking at both long and short term gains while you are looking at very short term gains. A strong pilot group will make you more successful throughout your career than a divided USAIR mess. Thats not hard to figure out.

Bull****!!! Do you honestly expect anyone to buy that??

I dont expect you to believe it because you only believe in whats best for YOU. Its called integrity, i want whats best for YOU and I. Is it really that hard to figure out?

We are much better off working together, wake up! Your mentality is exactly whats wrong with this industry needs to go away. Like it or not I want that mentality changed so we can rebuild this career.

Its called integrity

Yes, tell me more about this "integrity." You seem to be an expert.

I'm not afraid to admit I'm primarily interested in results that benefit me. I'm up front about it. Frankly, I don't trust anyone who claims otherwise.

You expect someone to believe you're more interested in the collective good than what's best for yourself? I call BS. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but communism doesn't work.

The only difference between your argument and mine is that you expect to get a payoff several years down the road. I think we should get a payoff now. How does that associate to more "integrity" on your part? It doesn't.

Try reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. It might help you grasp the significance of market forces acting in their own best interests, and how that propels a capitalistic economy.

Enough of your sermons, SP92. We're tired of them.

Originally Posted by Superpilot92 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/28419-poll-yes-no-dal-nwa-jpwa-post426219.html#post426219)
I honestly dont care if we get a pay raise or not.


Bull****!!! Do you honestly expect anyone to buy that?? If so, you're the only one at your company who thinks that.

Ahhh, Space.

To tell you the truth, I don't really care either. The pay raise is nice, true. But, I've got friends at United, CAL , and American. Look around. Who really cares about a pay raise if you are on the street furloughed?

I look at this JPWA for:

-Furlough protection
-Increased Scope
-Recovery of pension benefits

Pay is secondary for me and almost all of the guys I guys I fly with, since they are the ones who will get furloughed if the company decides to.

I know the senior pilots are only concerned about retirement benefits. One just tole me yesterday that that was the only part of the agreement that he looked at. Pay, you see, wouldn't affect him. Increased insurance payments from $550 to $1900 per month would.

So, maybe if you take the time to think before you type, you will realize that there are a lot of issues out there that people will vote on that don't include pay.

Also, if you thought LOA 19 was a bridge to a better agreemnt, I'm sorry to dissapoint you. It was only a way to allow your Delta Family to be able to announce the merger as soon as possible. They didn't tell you? I'm shocked. But, you can still trust them. :rolleyes:

New K Now

Yes, tell me more about this "integrity." You seem to be an expert.

I'm not afraid to admit I'm primarily interested in results that benefit me. I'm up front about it. Frankly, I don't trust anyone who claims otherwise.

You expect someone to believe you're more interested in the collective good than what's best for yourself? I call BS. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but communism doesn't work.

The only difference between your argument and mine is that you expect to get a payoff several years down the road. I think we should get a payoff now. How does that associate to more "integrity" on your part? It doesn't.

Try reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. It might help you grasp the significance of market forces acting in their own best interests, and how that propels a capitalistic economy.

Enough of your sermons, SP92. We're tired of them.


Well you have said your only looking out for you, WE get it.

I stand by what i said in regards to wanting whats best for US.

Nuff said We're tired of OUR bickering. Lets get back to debating whats going on instead of bashing one another. We have a difference opinion that is all. Cya around the water cooler ;)

Originally Posted by Superpilot92
I honestly dont care if we get a pay raise or not.

I look at this JPWA for:

-Furlough protection
-Increased Scope
-Recovery of pension benefits

Please don't tell me you think furlough "protection" is worth anything with oil this high. That clause is nothing more than eyewash.

What pension benefits you are looking to recover again?

Originally Posted by Superpilot92 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/28419-poll-yes-no-dal-nwa-jpwa-post426219.html#post426219)
I honestly dont care if we get a pay raise or not.




Ahhh, Space.

To tell you the truth, I don't really care either. The pay raise is nice, true. But, I've got friends at United, CAL , and American. Look around. Who really cares about a pay raise if you are on the street furloughed?

I look at this JPWA for:

-Furlough protection
-Increased Scope
-Recovery of pension benefits

Pay is secondary for me and almost all of the guys I guys I fly with, since they are the ones who will get furloughed if the company decides to.

I know the senior pilots are only concerned about retirement benefits. One just tole me yesterday that that was the only part of the agreement that he looked at. Pay, you see, wouldn't affect him. Increased insurance payments from $550 to $1900 per month would.

So, maybe if you take the time to think before you type, you will realize that there are a lot of issues out there that people will vote on that don't include pay.

Also, if you thought LOA 19 was a bridge to a better agreemnt, I'm sorry to dissapoint you. It was only a way to allow your Delta Family to be able to announce the merger as soon as possible. They didn't tell you? I'm shocked. But, you can still trust them. :rolleyes:

New K Now

Well said and i Agree completely.

Come on guys--we are NOT at UAL, CAL or wherever. We're about to merge, and management expects to reap HUGE financial rewards from this "synergy."

Management wants us to think we're under the gun. But our situation is vastly different than the rest of the industry right now..because they need us sooner rather than later to make that money for themselves.

We need a bigger cut.

Yes, tell me more about this "integrity." You seem to be an expert.

I'm not afraid to admit I'm primarily interested in results that benefit me. I'm up front about it. Frankly, I don't trust anyone who claims otherwise.

You expect someone to believe you're more interested in the collective good than what's best for yourself? I call BS. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but communism doesn't work.

The only difference between your argument and mine is that you expect to get a payoff several years down the road. I think we should get a payoff now. How does that associate to more "integrity" on your part? It doesn't.

Try reading "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. It might help you grasp the significance of market forces acting in their own best interests, and how that propels a capitalistic economy.

Enough of your sermons, SP92. We're tired of them.

You are a piece of work. So, if they come up with a plan that makes you the number #1 pilot at the New Delta for the rest of your life while the other 7200 Delta pilots get stappled to the bottom of the list, you are ok with that. Great.

I wonder what you would do if you had to ditch or evacuate an airplane that was on fire?

Ever see the Seinfeld episode where George pushed aside a whole crowd of people -women, children, old lady- when there was a fire in the kitchen?

Spacemen Spliff as George Costanza, I knew it. :cool:

Come on guys--we are NOT at UAL, CAL or wherever. We're about to merge and management expects to reap HUGE financial rewards from this "synergy."

Management wants us to think we're under the gun. But our situation is vastly different than the rest of the industry right now..because they need us sooner rather than later to make that money for themselves.

We need more of a cut.

Most of us are thinking WAY beyond the pay. We're thinking of long term survival of the company. And once again, if you think you can do better than your MEC(because you've been doing this for soooo long) then maybe you should get buddy, buddy with Moak and he'll let ya in on negotiations. Then you can tell management that even though there are multiple companies that shut their doors along with others on the verge, as well as companies fuloughing, that we deserve more money. Please, if you think that YOU can do better than your MEC, then go get involved with ALPA. Quit complaining, and do something about it.

Spacemen Spliff as George Costanza, I knew it. :cool:

Shoot, I always thought of myself as "Eric the Clown..."

P.S. I'm sick of the hypocrisy here. If a pilot group wanted to look out for everyone on its seniority list (as St. SuperPilot92 and St. NewKnow advocate) there would never be any furloughs--senior guys would take pay cuts, accept line reductions, etc to ensure junior guys were never put on the street.

I don't seem to see anything in the JPWA whereby senior guys will give up anything to protect junior guys from being furloughed due to force majeur, if its necessary. Do you?

Nothing will stop folks from looking out for themselves first.

We've seen how well that concept has worked in this industry. For guys to associate "integrity" with taking care of everyone on the seniority list is a complete farce.

Please don't tell me you think furlough "protection" is worth anything with oil this high. That clause is nothing more than eyewash.

What pension benefits you are looking to recover again?

Yeah, yeah. The furlough protection language is worth nothing. I'm not even in the mood to look up your past post to see if you relied on the same language to protect you in LOA 19 and spout off that NWA would have to furlough because DAL couldn't.

Anyway, the agreemnt specifically mentions high fuel prices. That's good enough for me. If they furlough anyway, it's up to the judge to decide why. Good enough for me, because it's better than anything anyone else has out there. Can the judge stop them form being furloughed? Probably not. But, can he order the company -- your family -- to shell out some cash to the affected pilots. Yes he can.

I originally wanted EVERYONE to have the old pensions back (especially DAL pilots). But, I was shot down so hard by many of you on this board that I said, forget it. I understand that you guys are gun shy on pensions. So, I won't even begen to detail what I would have liked to see. But, take note that American pilots still have their pensions and they don't seem to be too worried about losing it.


New K Now

I'm not even in the mood to look up your past post to see if you relied on the same language to protect you in LOA 19 and spout off that NWA would have to furlough because DAL couldn't.



I'll save you the trouble. I've always felt LOA 19 "furlough protection" language was little more than eyewash.

Yes, tell me more about this "integrity." You seem to be an expert.

I'm not afraid to admit I'm primarily interested in results that benefit me. I'm up front about it. Frankly, I don't trust anyone who claims otherwise.

You expect someone to believe you're more interested in the collective good than what's best for yourself? I call BS. Maybe you didn't get the memo, but communism doesn't work.

.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e392/christopher_92/forums/SiskoAnimated-1.gif

Oooh, neat. A multimedia rebuttal. How profound. :cool:

St. New K Now says that he would be all for sacrificing to make sure NO junior guys/gals get furloughed. He fly's with them all the time and thinks THEY are part of the NWA soon to be DAL pilot family.

St. New K Now thinks Spaceman Spliff would sacrifice nothing to save anyone. He only flies with people who are senior to him and thinks Richard Anderson is his family.

Wake up dude. You will never fly with Anderson. NWA pilots and those junior to you are the ones you have to rely on, not only in flight but on the ground as well. So, why not join us here on earth?

If you only look out for yourself you will find yourself alone rather quickly.

Good luck with that attitude.

I originally wanted EVERYONE to have the old pensions back (especially DAL pilots). But, I was shot down so hard by many of you on this board that I said, forget it.

You'd be hard pressed to find ANY DAL pilot with ANY interest in a DB retirement plan. And I am pretty sure you won't find ANY that would waste any negotiating capital on it. I know I wouldn't. Show me the money.. and put it in MY account.

You'd be hard pressed to find ANY DAL pilot with ANY interest in a DB retirement plan. And I am pretty sure you won't find ANY that would waste any negotiating capital on it. I know I wouldn't. Show me the money.. and put it in MY account.

See. That's what I thought.

See what a lil prompting will do ?:)

St. New K Now says that he would be all for sacrificing to make sure NO junior guys/gals get furloughed. He fly's with them all the time and thinks THEY are part of the NWA soon to be DAL pilot family.



So you're on record as willing to accept pay cuts, fewer hours, a slide back to FO, displacement, or whatever measures are necessary to prevent furloughs...and you've conveyed that message to your MEC?

I'm willing to bet they probably haven't received any correspondence to that effect.

So you're on record as willing to accept pay cuts, fewer hours, a slide back to FO, displacement, or whatever measures are necessary to prevent furloughs...and you've conveyed that message to your MEC?

I'm willing to bet they probably haven't received any correspondence to that effect.

You assume wrong.

At the risk of giving away who I am, I conveyed that message to my MEC in 2001, post 9/11. So, you would lose that bet.

You know what happens when you assume things don't ya, Space?

Don't put people in your selfish little box just because that's where you belong. Ok?

New K Now

I'm not afraid to admit I'm primarily interested in results that benefit me. I'm up front about it. Frankly, I don't trust anyone who claims otherwise.

Does that mean you would be a SCAB Spaceman? Because that is the exact mantra of the few scabs we had at NWA.

You expect someone to believe you're more interested in the collective good than what's best for yourself? I call BS.

Again, another classic example of scab mentality.

I know that DAL management has never pushed DAL pilots to a strike, but if they ever do, you should understand something: NOT CROSSING A PICKET LINE IS ALL ABOUT DOING WHAT IS RIGHT FOR THE COLLECTIVE... YOU DULLARD! Every single scab got his pay during the strike AND enjoyed the benefits of the new contract that they did NOT strike to achieve. It was simply a decision on what was best for them and to hell with the collective good.

So Spaceman, do you care to revise and extend your remarks?

Carl

Before you have a coronary, Carl--no, I would not cross a picket line. You should probably pop a couple nitro tablets now, before you have a blowout.

Wow, it sure is eye-opening that so many pilots are working for the "collective good," and not out of the desire to earn a decent living for themselves and their families.

Who knew that becoming an airline pilot meant foregoing the American dream and becoming a communist? Next you're going to tell me we all have to live on a collective farm and harvest crops on our days off. Give me a break.

ATLANTA (AP) - Delta Air Lines Inc. said Wednesday it swung to a hefty loss in the second quarter despite a strong increase in sales, pushing its red ink to more than $7 billion since the start of the year.

The results, hit by unprecedented fuel costs and a decline in the company's market value, still beat Wall Street estimates when one-time items are excluded.

The Atlanta-based company also said it expects to achieve $2 billion in cost savings by 2012 from its acquisition of Northwest Airlines Corp. That is double what it estimated when it announced the deal on April 14.

It also said it expects to spend only $600 million in cash to integrate the two companies, compared to an earlier projection of $1 billion.

Now tell me again why we are in a rush to rubber stamp this POS TA? Looks like there's plenty left to tap into.

The company is already predicting even bigger savings by 2012, i.e., before the JPWA is amendable. We need a bigger piece NOW.

Four years? Is that the standard timeline for a contract? Then you add a few more years for negotiations and all of a sudden, it's 2014. 2014? That's enough time to recover from this slowdown, go through a bull market and start negotiations just in time for the next round of economic slowdown. Would people like this TA more if it were amendable after maybe 2 years? Is this even possible?

Four years? Is that the standard timeline for a contract? Then you add a few more years for negotiations and all of a sudden, it's 2014. 2014? That's enough time to recover from this slowdown, go through a bull market and start negotiations just in time for the next round of economic slowdown. Would people like this TA more if it were amendable after maybe 2 years? Is this even possible?

From Moak's brief to an all-committee meeting yesterday:

"Duration, this is by far one of the biggest downers for the nay-sayers. The MEC made a strategic decision to have this agreement go out to end of 2012. These decisions were and are based on information that the MEC received based on signed confidentiality agreements. If we were privy to this information then we would see the wisdom of their ways. Remember, from above, SOC (single operating certificate) will not happen until end of 2010 or beginning of 2011. At that time, we will have about 2 years to realize the synergies from a completely merged airline with an SOC. Strategically the MEC believes that we will have the potential to be most profitable at this time and have the greatest chance of improving our pay and working conditions. We can begin Section 6 negotiations 9 months prior to the amendable date as well."



Kevin

Before you have a coronary, Carl--no, I would not cross a picket line. You should probably pop a couple nitro tablets now, before you have a blowout.

Wow, it sure is eye-opening that so many pilots are working for the "collective good," and not out of the desire to earn a decent living for themselves and their families.

Who knew that becoming an airline pilot meant foregoing the American dream and becoming a communist? Next you're going to tell me we all have to live on a collective farm and harvest crops on our days off. Give me a break.

Space,

The Airline Pilot profession is what is is today because of the many pilots who worked for the "collective good," who came before you.

In fact, this country -- you know the American dream thing -- is in its present form because of people who worked together for the "collective good."

I can see now why Carl is somewhat disenchanted with some of you on here.

But, no lecture from me today. If you think that doing something to benefit the collective good is communist, then good for you.

I'm just glad that so many who came before us had a different take on things.

New K Now

I have to agree with sailingfun when he says that for a NWA guy this contract is a "no brainer". Vote NO!

Under this agreement we lose the following:

1. Reserve guarantee drops 5 hrs/mo
2. Over 80 hr. premium pay
3. For many, sick leave balances in excess of 1500 hrs
4. Substantial increase in retirees medical insurance
5. No "call-in-honest" program
6. A sub-par jumpseat policy
7. No FMLV. (Unless the current Legislation passes)
8. Single category bidding (Not seperate Block/Reserve)
9. Monthly Maximums reduced which negates any pay raise
10. Contributions to the DC Fund reduced or eliminated until later years

As far as retirement goes, it is true that the NWA guys still have their DB plan. For some it is adequate. For many it is not. This benefit could very well be terminated in the event of another BK filing by DL.

Also, please remember that the DAL pilot group chose to terminate their DB plan so that the senior guys would leave and allow the more junior quys to move up. The NWA guys voted for a worse contract to keep their DB plan in tack with the expectation that their targeted DC plan would make up the difference for the more junior guys.

Having said all this, I still believe this will pass but it is not the windfall for NWA pilots that our Delta Brothers whould like us to believe it is.

Got a couple of questions and corrections for ya:

First. "The DAL pilots CHOSE to terminate our DB plan so..." is total unadulterated moronic bullsqueeze. Chose? What planet are you on? Were you asleep when YOU went thru bankruptcy? Sorry for the rant, but I am getting sick of hearing this drivel. The guys that took the money, (and the resultant run on the bank) have resulted in about 300 +/- guys now being gone more than would have retired under normal circumstances (age 60). How again have we benefitted from that?

I believe that DAL's jumpseat policy is as good as anybody else's unless you know something I do not, in which case I would appreciate an education.

I DO agree with you that your commuting policy is much better than ours in that if you can't make the flight you have planned, you can get PS. Much much better than our plan.

The over 80 hour premium pay thing.. I really think the double pay greenslip pay we have is a much better system. It will result in much more coin.

Your rant about monthly maximums display just how little you know about our contract. You can fly as much as you want. (to FAA limits basically) The ALV is only for line construction purposes.

I don't know why you view single category bidding as a concession, but OK.. that's your opinion..

I'm not a huge fan of the TA either.. but I really don't see that voting it down... especially now.. is going to benefit anyone. Knock yourself out...

See. That's what I thought.

Was that a dig, or just an acknowledgement ? Anybody in this country that would waste any time fighting for a retirement plan that can evaporate in an 1113 filing isn't playing with a full deck anymore. Things have changed at corporate America. It's all about part time employees. IF McClown gets elected... watch health care benefits go the same way. That's exactly what his "plan" will do. I'm not sayin the other guy is any better.. but I KNOW what Johnny boy has in store for Americans.. and it ain't pretty.

Hey tsquare chill out!.

The reason for my post was to point out to sailingfun that that this contract is not the windfall for NWA guy's that most DAL pilots believe it is. If that perception is wong, please correct me.

I don't believe I was ranting about anything. I was simply pointing out some contractural changes in this TA that I believe are inferior to the current NWA contract but that is what negotiations are all about.

To answer some of your questions/ corrections:

1. If I read your post correctly, you said that 300+/- pilots senior to you have left early. Please explain how anyone junior to them did not benefit by their leaving.

2. We can book the jumpseat up to 10 1/2 days prior to the flight,first come/first served without regards to the reason

3. I agree that the green slip program has the potential for more money provided there are trips available after bidding. My point is that if I get my schedule for the month and am at 85 hrs, I know I will be grtting 5 hrs at time and a half without waiting for a trip to become available later. This is also why the lower monthly max at bidding MAY result in less money.

4. The single category bidding is a little more complicated. Prior to our merger with Republic that is how NWA bidded. Since then we have bid seperate Block/Reserve positions. As a result of our 20yr fences/protected positions (bad idea by the way) we now have reserve pilots who are senior to blockholder pilots (not by choice) Once we go to a single category process and bid in senority (good idea) many of the junior blockholders will either have to be on reserve or bid down to a lower paying position to stay off reserve. We are a large commuting airline, so knowing that when you bid a position you will either have a schedule or be on reserve you can plan accordingly.

I hope that helps. Haven't voted yet. Still trying to get educated!!!

Hey tsquare chill out!.

The reason for my post was to point out to sailingfun that that this contract is not the windfall for NWA guy's that most DAL pilots believe it is. If that perception is wong, please correct me.

I don't believe I was ranting about anything. I was simply pointing out some contractural changes in this TA that I believe are inferior to the current NWA contract but that is what negotiations are all about.

To answer some of your questions/ corrections:

1. If I read your post correctly, you said that 300+/- pilots senior to you have left early. Please explain how anyone junior to them did not benefit by their leaving. Yeah, they benefitted, but they also lost their DB. The 300 didnt leave so that others could move up, it was strictly about getting half their retirement in a lump sum before BK.

2. We can book the jumpseat up to 10 1/2 days prior to the flight,first come/first served without regards to the reason This never ceases to amaze me! We can book it 31/2 days in advance commuting to work, 21/2 from work, and 11/2 personal travel, thus giving commuters priority over pleasure travelers--you dont agree with that philosophy? are you a commuter? If everybody can book the jumpseat 10 1/2 days in advance {or 20 1/2 days, or 30 days or 6 months, or any other arbitrary time period} -what, praytell, is the advantage? When the window opens for advanced JS booking, people will be primed to reserve a JS regardless of the arbitrary time in advance that they can book it! Thus, you have no better chance of being successful in booking your desired JS. {this is not rocket science!} This is a no cost item for the company, so they could care less--this is about our respective pilot groups philosophy concerning the JS.

3. I agree that the green slip program has the potential for more money provided there are trips available after bidding. My point is that if I get my schedule for the month and am at 85 hrs, I know I will be grtting 5 hrs at time and a half without waiting for a trip to become available later. This is also why the lower monthly max at bidding MAY result in less money.

4. The single category bidding is a little more complicated. Prior to our merger with Republic that is how NWA bidded. Since then we have bid seperate Block/Reserve positions. As a result of our 20yr fences/protected positions (bad idea by the way) we now have reserve pilots who are senior to blockholder pilots (not by choice) Once we go to a single category process and bid in senority (good idea) many of the junior blockholders will either have to be on reserve or bid down to a lower paying position to stay off reserve. We are a large commuting airline, so knowing that when you bid a position you will either have a schedule or be on reserve you can plan accordingly.

I hope that helps. Haven't voted yet. Still trying to get educated!!!
Maddog-- perhaps the TA is not a windfall for NW, so you can imagine it is even less impressive for DL. But might you consider it a "good deal" or certainly a "much better deal than we had considering our old contract wasnt renewable until 2011?"

3. I agree that the green slip program has the potential for more money provided there are trips available after bidding. My point is that if I get my schedule for the month and am at 85 hrs, I know I will be grtting 5 hrs at time and a half without waiting for a trip to become available later. This is also why the lower monthly max at bidding MAY result in less money.

I hope that helps. Haven't voted yet. Still trying to get educated!!!

FWIW, on the 19th, on the 76ER Captain side in JFK, there are 8 trips in open time, and only 2 reserves available. 6 of them (potentially) will go our as greenslips. When they go to double pay... ka ching!

The bad thing about GS at dbl pay is that the one good deal reserves now have will dry up. Rolling thunder allows reserve pilots to fly on off days, and get pay (no credit) above the reserve guarantee. You've probably heard other guys talk about this here, but if your timing is good, and you are little lucky, you can get paid well in excess of 100 hours or a whole lot more.. and only work 3 or maybe 4 trips. It IS a great deal, but once the regular line holders can get dbl pay for a GS, I am sure they will start bidding them a lot more.

Oh, and yes we did benefit by 300 guys leaving, but that is a small part of what happened. We grew a LOT internationally, and finally got a route guy that actually has a clue about the world. THAT was by far more beneficial than the guys taking an early out.

Sorry about the other thing.. It looked like you were pingin on us... my bad.

As for voting.. I haven't voited yet either, but I can really see no advantage in voting no at this point.

Was that a dig, or just an acknowledgement ? Anybody in this country that would waste any time fighting for a retirement plan that can evaporate in an 1113 filing isn't playing with a full deck anymore. Things have changed at corporate America. It's all about part time employees. IF McClown gets elected... watch health care benefits go the same way. That's exactly what his "plan" will do. I'm not sayin the other guy is any better.. but I KNOW what Johnny boy has in store for Americans.. and it ain't pretty.

No dig, TS. When I dig I include this: :cool:. (Which is pretty much only getting used on Spaceman or his kid or whoever he is letting post for him) :cool:

I was acknowledging that you guys jumped all over me for suggesting the old style pension for NWA & DAL pilots after you guys complained that NWA pilots still had theirs.

I know they are on shaky ground and that companies can pretty much terminate them at will (bankrupcy). But, for some reason AA pilots on here seem pretty secure in the knowledge that they will get theirs. Anyone know why?


Also, can someone point me to the place in the K where it says that the company cannot furlough because of fuel prices, a bad economy, ect? Yes, I know that is not worth the paper it is written on. I just want to see it. Thanks.

New K Now

P.S., TS: We can book our jumpseat 10 1/2 days in advance and no one can take it away (except a Fed) as long as we show up 15 (or maybe it's 20) minuets prior to departure. It's jumpseating without the rush and uneasy felling you get as you approach the gate to see if someone beat you there. Our FA's have it too. It's great.

P.S., TS: We can book our jumpseat 10 1/2 days in advance and no one can take it away (except a Fed) as long as we show up 15 (or maybe it's 20) minuets prior to departure. It's jumpseating without the rush and uneasy felling you get as you approach the gate to see if someone beat you there. Our FA's have it too. It's great.

The same is true at DL, except we do it 3 1/2 days prior for going to work, 2 1/2 days prior for going home and 1 1/2 days prior for pleasure travel. This is a good system because it give the advantage to commuters going to work. And like your system, it is first come first serve and you can't get bumped unless it's a Fed or for operational reasons (ie. line check).

Under your system, a guy planning to hang out with a college buddy could reserve the jumpseat instead of you trying to get to work simply by being on the phone one second faster than you.

3 1/2 days (which is actually 4 1/2 days because it does not count the day of your trip starts) is plenty of advance time to feel secure about having the jumpseat or making alternate plans.

I see no advantage to booking it 10 1/2 days in advance. In fact, I see a disadvantage. You have a much clearer outlook on the weather 4 days out versus 10 or 11 days. That might change your commuting plans (ie. earlier flight). If it looks like 4 days prior the wx goes to crap, under your system that jumpseat might already be taken. Not at Delta.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I think that once you're used to the system, you'll see it works well and appreciate the benefits of it.

IF we had the same policy as NWA concerning "calling in honest," whereby you get PS'ed if you can't get on your "to work" flight, I would agree with a free-for-all jumpseat booking policy--whether it is 10.5 or 3.5 days (not sure why the time matters.)

Minus the company's willingness to PS commuters, keeping the system as-is (prioritizing jumpseat listings for those commuting to work) seems to be a no-brainer.

The same is true at DL, except we do it 3 1/2 days prior for going to work, 2 1/2 days prior for going home and 1 1/2 days prior for pleasure travel. This is a good system because it give the advantage to commuters going to work. And like your system, it is first come first serve and you can't get bumped unless it's a Fed or for operational reasons (ie. line check).

Under your system, a guy planning to hang out with a college buddy could reserve the jumpseat instead of you trying to get to work simply by being on the phone one second faster than you.

3 1/2 days (which is actually 4 1/2 days because it does not count the day of your trip starts) is plenty of advance time to feel secure about having the jumpseat or making alternate plans.

I see no advantage to booking it 10 1/2 days in advance. In fact, I see a disadvantage. You have a much clearer outlook on the weather 4 days out versus 10 or 11 days. That might change your commuting plans (ie. earlier flight). If it looks like 4 days prior the wx goes to crap, under your system that jumpseat might already be taken. Not at Delta.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I think that once you're used to the system, you'll see it works well and appreciate the benefits of it.

You guys must have a really good meterology department.

For me 3 1/2 days is not as good as 10 1/2 days. I like knowing that I have the jumpseat home when my trip is over. If I can only book it 3 1/2 days prior at lot of times that is during the same trip I'm trying to get home from. On the DC-9 thats waaay to hectic. We barely have enough time to eat you know. :) Space is right, other than that the time doesn't matter.

Also, under the NWA system, there is no worrying about getting to work. The "call in honest policy" allows us to come to work on the flight before the last flight that gets you into work in time for check in.

In fact, what they have been doing recently is declaring wx events. So, if they see a snowstorm approaching a hub, the day before they will call the pilots who are supposed to be checking in that day and offer them a hotel room and Y1 pass if they come to work early.

When you combine the call in honest policy with being able to book the jumpseat, what the weather looks like 4 days out becomes immaterial. Our system works well, too. I think we should be trying to get the call in honest policy. :)


New K Now

Vey good point. I am not sure how long the DAL international trips are but NWA has mostly 9-12 day trips. This does make booking you flight home a lot harder if your are 1. not in a hotel with internet or 2. Don't lug around a computer.
As you all know, both the J/S policy and Call-in-Honest progrmas are LOA'S and not contractural. They are QOL enhancements.
I do like the idea of commuters having first crack at the Jumpseat. Lets work to get DAL's 3 1/2 made 10 1/2; 2 1/2 made 9 1/2 and 1 1/2 made 8 1/2.
That combined with the Call-in-Honest program would make everyones life better. I would hope that is everyone's goal.

I do like the idea of commuters having first crack at the Jumpseat. Lets work to get DAL's 3 1/2 made 10 1/2; 2 1/2 made 9 1/2 and 1 1/2 made 8 1/2.
That combined with the Call-in-Honest program would make everyones life better. I would hope that is everyone's goal.

I don't think you'll find any DAL guys opposed to those ideas.

The question is, how can we slip them into the current TA--and since that's probably not possible, how do we get LOAs to that effect in place ASAP???

These all seem like small potatoes compared to what the company stands to gain from the merger, and, like you said, huge QOL boosters, especially for commuters (and in-base reserve guys who don't want to get "the call.")

Maddogmax. Your statement on retirement is so far from reality that I don't know where to start. First the pilots who left early left early well before the plan was terminated. Most were in their last few years. The net gain for pilots today is less then 400 numbers. Review the timeline. The wave of retirement started in 02 and ended in 05 when the plan went below required funding limits to allow lump sums. There was not even a whisper of giving up the plan at that point. In fact everyone was fighting to save it. We agreed to a hard freeze and other changes after the retirements to try and retain the plan. Only later in Chapter 11 was the choice made to drop the plan.

The other items you mention with regard to the contracts have been looked at. I understand that after comparing the two contracts and how many credit hours each contract generated per pilot and the quality of life items there was a unanimous choice by both MEC's to work off the Delta contract. Much of your objections like the lower cap at Delta are pure myth. Since you will work under the contract I suggest you get a copy of it.

Maddogmax. Your statement on retirement is so far from reality that I don't know where to start. First the pilots who left early left early well before the plan was terminated. Most were in their last few years. The net gain for pilots today is less then 400 numbers. Review the timeline. The wave of retirement started in 02 and ended in 05 when the plan went below required funding limits to allow lump sums. There was not even a whisper of giving up the plan at that point. In fact everyone was fighting to save it. We agreed to a hard freeze and other changes after the retirements to try and retain the plan. Only later in Chapter 11 was the choice made to drop the plan.

The other items you mention with regard to the contracts have been looked at. I understand that after comparing the two contracts and how many credit hours each contract generated per pilot and the quality of life items there was a unanimous choice by both MEC's to work off the Delta contract. Much of your objections like the lower cap at Delta are pure myth. Since you will work under the contract I suggest you get a copy of it.


Speaking of a copy of the K, once again, can anyone point me to the part of it that states that the company can't furlough for a bad economy, fuel prices, ect.; Like page number, or section. Thanks. :)

P.S., TS: We can book our jumpseat 10 1/2 days in advance and no one can take it away (except a Fed) as long as we show up 15 (or maybe it's 20) minuets prior to departure. It's jumpseating without the rush and uneasy felling you get as you approach the gate to see if someone beat you there. Our FA's have it too. It's great.

Yeah I know all about this policy. IMHO, the negotiators (on both sides) fell down on this by not getting it in the new contract. The problem here is that.. unfortunately.. we are also negotiating for benefits for the FAs. If we got a JS policy that would give us PS to go to work, the 50,000 FAs would get it too. All the MCO-ATL, MCO-JFK flights would then become negative revenue flights since so many live here and commute there... I hate the attitude, but it is an unfortunate fact at a non-unionized airline.

Yeah I know all about this policy. IMHO, the negotiators (on both sides) fell down on this by not getting it in the new contract. The problem here is that.. unfortunately.. we are also negotiating for benefits for the FAs. If we got a JS policy that would give us PS to go to work, the 50,000 FAs would get it too. All the MCO-ATL, MCO-JFK flights would then become negative revenue flights since so many live here and commute there... I hate the attitude, but it is an unfortunate fact at a non-unionized airline.


Really? Wow! I didn't know that. :eek:

Just a question. If the Jumpseat policy was improved by a LOA to our contract and the FA's are non-union how could they expect to get the same benefit.

Just a question. If the Jumpseat policy was improved by a LOA to our contract and the FA's are non-union how could they expect to get the same benefit.

The company tends to give them a lot of the good deals we get; this shows the F/As that there is no need to organize. It's worked pretty well for them so far.

Just a question. If the Jumpseat policy was improved by a LOA to our contract and the FA's are non-union how could they expect to get the same benefit.
Not picking on you here, but it's interesting the different mindsets involved here==it is inconceivable to a "firmly established" unionist corporate culture that anyone not in a union could possibly enjoy anything remotely resembling "benefits"....afterall, benefits to working people can only be had through unions, and not through the good will or "common sense" of corporate leaders...not that they are in danger of being canonized any time soon, but who is?....pilots?

Just a question. If the Jumpseat policy was improved by a LOA to our contract and the FA's are non-union how could they expect to get the same benefit.
Not picking on you here, but it's interesting the different mindsets involved here==it is inconceivable to a "firmly established" unionist corporate culture that anyone not in a union could possibly enjoy anything remotely resembling "benefits"....afterall, benefits to working people can only be had through unions, and not through the good will or "common sense" of corporate leaders...not that they are in danger of being canonized any time soon, but who is?....pilots?

Yeah I know all about this policy. IMHO, the negotiators (on both sides) fell down on this by not getting it in the new contract. The problem here is that.. unfortunately.. we are also negotiating for benefits for the FAs. If we got a JS policy that would give us PS to go to work, the 50,000 FAs would get it too. All the MCO-ATL, MCO-JFK flights would then become negative revenue flights since so many live here and commute there... I hate the attitude, but it is an unfortunate fact at a non-unionized airline.


FWIW, both the 10.5 day JS listing and the call-in-honest programs are NWA Policy, NOT contractual.

It would be very easy for DAL to do the same thing.

Nu

I actually prefer the Delta window since I trade trips often. Usually 10 days out I don't know what I might be flying. With the 3 day window to work it still gives me a chance to get a jumpseat to work before pilots grab it for personal use. The window does not include the day of travel or day of listing so it is actually 5 days in advance.

Well, just got back from the NWA roadshow in Tokyo. The presentation was about 1.5 hours and the Q&A was another 2 hours. For the NWA guys that haven't been to a show yet, here's my take:

1. The pay increases are great, but they are nearly all consumed by the much higher medical insurance premiums and lower line values. To get a real "take home" pay increase, you will have to game the system via the open board.

2. In the out-years of the contract, there will be real take home pay increases - assuming medical premiums don't increase further

3. The no-furlough protection is weak to non-existent - as usual (in my opinion).

4. The combined airline is going to be one of the toughest competitors in the world. And we get Richard Anderson back. When he left for United Healthcare, I felt it was a bad loss for NWA. Now we'll have one of the smartest CEO's around that knows the company he is merging with like the back of his hand.

While I'm disappointed that there will be no noticeable take home pay increase for quite a while, the fact that we will be the strongest carrier with incredible management makes me a YES vote.

I also think Moak is right when he says 2012 will probably be excellent timing for the next round of negotiations as it will most likely coincide with the turn around of our industry.

Carl - Soon to be hat-wearin, widget-accessorised yankee/bubba :eek::confused::D

Well, just got back from the NWA roadshow in Tokyo. The presentation was about 1.5 hours and the Q&A was another 2 hours. For the NWA guys that haven't been to a show yet, here's my take:

1. The pay increases are great, but they are nearly all consumed by the much higher medical insurance premiums and lower line values. To get a real "take home" pay increase, you will have to game the system via the open board.

I keep reading about the higher medical premiums. While that's true for retirees because Delta doesn't combine the groups while you guys pay a "blended" pool rate, it's not true for actives. You guys are bringing your Blue Cross plan over with its current premium as a medical option and you get all the Delta options. As far as lower line values, there's less than one hour difference in lines per pilot. Gaming isn't required.


4. The combined airline is going to be one of the toughest competitors in the world. And we get Richard Anderson back. When he left for United Healthcare, I felt it was a bad loss for NWA. Now we'll have one of the smartest CEO's around that knows the company he is merging with like the back of his hand.



I sure hope so. We both need this to work.

Well, just got back from the NWA roadshow in Tokyo. The presentation was about 1.5 hours and the Q&A was another 2 hours. For the NWA guys that haven't been to a show yet, here's my take:

1. The pay increases are great, but they are nearly all consumed by the much higher medical insurance premiums and lower line values. To get a real "take home" pay increase, you will have to game the system via the open board.

2. In the out-years of the contract, there will be real take home pay increases - assuming medical premiums don't increase further

3. The no-furlough protection is weak to non-existent - as usual (in my opinion).

4. The combined airline is going to be one of the toughest competitors in the world. And we get Richard Anderson back. When he left for United Healthcare, I felt it was a bad loss for NWA. Now we'll have one of the smartest CEO's around that knows the company he is merging with like the back of his hand.

While I'm disappointed that there will be no noticeable take home pay increase for quite a while, the fact that we will be the strongest carrier with incredible management makes me a YES vote.

I also think Moak is right when he says 2012 will probably be excellent timing for the next round of negotiations as it will most likely coincide with the turn around of our industry.

Carl - Soon to be hat-wearin, widget-accessorised yankee/bubba :eek::confused::D

Just for some info...we have more options for insurance than the plan in the contract. I can't see how our premiums are much higher than yours. I am paying $222 a month for a family including dental.

Just for some info...we have more options for insurance than the plan in the contract. I can't see how our premiums are much higher than yours. I am paying $222 a month for a family including dental.

All I can tell you is what was said at the road show. Their PowerPoint presentation showed that DAL has one plan that is equivalent to our plan and its premiums are over double per month. You can pick one of the "HMO Like" plans and get far lower service than the NWA plan for about the same cost as the NWA plan. But if you want the same as your current NWA plan, the cost is double. While irritating, not enough to vote NO.

Carl

As far as lower line values, there's less than one hour difference in lines per pilot. Gaming isn't required.

That's not what the road show showed. And when it comes to guys on reserve, they'll go from a 75 hour guarantee to a 70 hour guarantee. That's 5 hours less pay per month. Couple that with the double insurance premiums and reserve guys will actually see a minor take home pay cut.

But again, if you take all the positives into consideration, I still think it is a YES vote...just not because of more money.

Carl

Carl, The average pilot at Delta gets more credit hours paid then the average pilot at NWA. I saw the numbers posted. It think it was 7 hours more. You will see a raise not a cut in total paid hours. You don't have to game the system for extra flying. You simply pick up a trip. The really strange part is hearing having a lower line construction window as bad. Those of us who don't want to fly a lot are not forced to fly and the need for pilots goes up which will help prevent furloughs.

I just logged on and looked at my pay hours for the last 4 months. I averaged 120 hours pay and worked an average of 15 days each month. When we go to double pay for overtime that number would have been closer to 130 hours. Talk to me in a year about your take home being less. I take home a lot more then several NW pilots I know flying the same amount of days and they are on the 330.

1. The pay increases are great, but they are nearly all consumed by the much higher medical insurance premiums and lower line values. To get a real "take home" pay increase, you will have to game the system via the open board.

2. In the out-years of the contract, there will be real take home pay increases - assuming medical premiums don't increase further

3. The no-furlough protection is weak to non-existent - as usual (in my opinion).

4. The combined airline is going to be one of the toughest competitors in the world. And we get Richard Anderson back. When he left for United Healthcare, I felt it was a bad loss for NWA. Now we'll have one of the smartest CEO's around that knows the company he is merging with like the back of his hand.

While I'm disappointed that there will be no noticeable take home pay increase for quite a while, the fact that we will be the strongest carrier with incredible management makes me a YES vote.

I also think Moak is right when he says 2012 will probably be excellent timing for the next round of negotiations as it will most likely coincide with the turn around of our industry.

Carl - Soon to be hat-wearin, widget-accessorised yankee/bubba :eek::confused::D

Thanks for the report.

- You may see less in the way of compensation increases than the average NWA pilot since you are maxed out on aircraft size. I think the average NWA pilot will see much greater career earnings because he or she will have access to a fleet of many more larger, higher paying aircraft than they expected at NWA. The bulk of the fleet is 757/767s and nothing here pays less than the MD-88.

- Did they say anything about fences?

- I look forward to working with you guys. I'm just hoping we can get the next phase (SLI) out of the way with minimum ugliness. Take care.

That's not what the road show showed. And when it comes to guys on reserve, they'll go from a 75 hour guarantee to a 70 hour guarantee. That's 5 hours less pay per month. Couple that with the double insurance premiums and reserve guys will actually see a minor take home pay cut.

But again, if you take all the positives into consideration, I still think it is a YES vote...just not because of more money.

Carl


Hi Carl,

You are fairly close to the mark. I went to the MSP roadshow, and they went VERY in-depth about the health care plans.

For those of us who despise HMO-type health plans, the cost will double. I was on one of the plans when I lived in MSP, and I vowed I'd never, EVER, belong to one of those type plans ever again.

The green-slip thing is fine, I guess. But the way I've heard it explained, it's only for flying the next day that comes up and can't be covered, which removes a lot of flexibility for commuters. From the sounds of it, you pretty much have to live in base, or be willing to risk a last minute commute.

The anything-over-80 premium pay was much more flexible, but since I never pick up extra time and always try to fly the absolute minimum, it's not something I'm hard over about.

The jumpseat thing is an easy fix. It's covered by policy, not contract, so a wave with the magic wand and bingo. If you want to keep the preferential treatment of going to work, that's an easy fix, too. 4.5 days out is too short, and even less for going home is worse. If you commute, chances are you're flying longer trips, which means you'll be on a trip when trying to book. Better hope you're on the ground when the window opens. Not knowing if I can get to work until 4 days out would drive me nuts.

Getting rid of JS booking on the internet is also a major step backwards. Hopefully this is an IT issue, and will be fixed when NWA brings over it's CIO to the new Delta.

Did ya see the new head honchos? Seemed like 7-8 out of the 9 were NWA or ex-NWA, so hopefully they'll understand some of the NWA-centric issues.

Nu

so hopefully they'll understand some of the NWA-centric issues.

Nu

"NWA-centric issues?" Such as...?

Don't worry, the ATL crew lounge (including the men's room) is currently undergoing renovations. I hear they're doubling the number of sit-down fixtures and removing some of the urinals, in anticipation of the the large number of NWA pilots they're expecting to bid down here.

So that's one "NWA-centric" problem they can cross off the list. :cool:

Spaceman

Dude.....why? Give it a rest.

"NWA-centric issues?" Such as...?

Don't worry, the ATL crew lounge (including the men's room) is currently undergoing renovations. I hear they're doubling the number of sit-down fixtures and removing some of the urinals, in anticipation of the the large number of NWA pilots they're expecting to bid down here.

So that's one "NWA-centric" problem they can cross off the list. :cool:


And you successfully continue to make yourself look like a jerk, way to go.

Greenslips are normally awarded by about 10 am the day prior. Unless you have a really long commute that is plenty of time to get to work. I commute and basically can fly one any time I want in the summer. In the winter they are not as available on international but I still get one about every other month and I generally limit putting one in to a few days a month. I made 190k last year with a base pay rate of 155 an hour and most months worked 12 days. Its not all bad!

As for the NWA reserve guys we will get a bump in take home pay. A current 330 FO makes 110 an hour x 75=8250/mo. new contract 130hr x 70= 9100 minus 250 more for medical insurance your still grossing 600 more a month. Plus much better work rules in being able to pick up trips.

Rumorville: 7:5 ratio (which is relative seniority for fellow public school kids) but with a dynamic list, giving credit to each side's attrition.

Keep in mind that very few reserves only make the reserve minimum. In most categories you can expect to work. You can also put in to fly on days off and it is paid on top of the cap and you get the days off back. I no one pilot who bid reserve all last year and was paid for 1480 credit hours. He made more then some Captains on the same aircraft.

As for the NWA reserve guys we will get a bump in take home pay. A current 330 FO makes 110 an hour x 75=8250/mo. new contract 130hr x 70= 9100 minus 250 more for medical insurance your still grossing 600 more a month. Plus much better work rules in being able to pick up trips.

Rumorville: 7:5 ratio (which is relative seniority for fellow public school kids) but with a dynamic list, giving credit to each side's attrition.

I would not mind that type of list however it would be brutal on the bottom of the NWA list when the Delta retirements kick in. They would really stagnate mid career when you need to be moving up.

It depends on how one looks at it. If you are a junior NWA pilot you will be moving up a lot as the average age at NWA is somewhere between 52-53 so they will be moving up on the NWA side. Everybody would keep their current status quo however as more NWA guys retire a NWA pilot would surpass a DAL and then when a DAL pilot retires the DAL pilot would move up etc.

I do believe there is going to be enough international flying that there will be a lot of opportunities across the list. We have (NWA) a lot of unused route authority in the pacific that R.A wants to utilize so, not to sound like a cool aid drinker, this may turn into a great place to work all things considered.

Thanks for the report.

- You may see less in the way of compensation increases than the average NWA pilot since you are maxed out on aircraft size. I think the average NWA pilot will see much greater career earnings because he or she will have access to a fleet of many more larger, higher paying aircraft than they expected at NWA. The bulk of the fleet is 757/767s and nothing here pays less than the MD-88.

- Did they say anything about fences?

- I look forward to working with you guys. I'm just hoping we can get the next phase (SLI) out of the way with minimum ugliness. Take care.

They didn't say anything about fences, but they said that the meetings thus far have been really, really good. They really like their counterparts and respect them. They feel the same respect in return. One of them told me afterward that we are very, very close on the SLI. The remaining issues are really very narrow.

Carl

Hi Carl,

You are fairly close to the mark. I went to the MSP roadshow, and they went VERY in-depth about the health care plans.

For those of us who despise HMO-type health plans, the cost will double. I was on one of the plans when I lived in MSP, and I vowed I'd never, EVER, belong to one of those type plans ever again.

The green-slip thing is fine, I guess. But the way I've heard it explained, it's only for flying the next day that comes up and can't be covered, which removes a lot of flexibility for commuters. From the sounds of it, you pretty much have to live in base, or be willing to risk a last minute commute.

The anything-over-80 premium pay was much more flexible, but since I never pick up extra time and always try to fly the absolute minimum, it's not something I'm hard over about.

The jumpseat thing is an easy fix. It's covered by policy, not contract, so a wave with the magic wand and bingo. If you want to keep the preferential treatment of going to work, that's an easy fix, too. 4.5 days out is too short, and even less for going home is worse. If you commute, chances are you're flying longer trips, which means you'll be on a trip when trying to book. Better hope you're on the ground when the window opens. Not knowing if I can get to work until 4 days out would drive me nuts.

Getting rid of JS booking on the internet is also a major step backwards. Hopefully this is an IT issue, and will be fixed when NWA brings over it's CIO to the new Delta.

Did ya see the new head honchos? Seemed like 7-8 out of the 9 were NWA or ex-NWA, so hopefully they'll understand some of the NWA-centric issues.

Nu


I agree with you Nu. I think a lot of things that are no-cost items are going to be really easy to fix with simple policy changes. When it comes to non-contract issues though, I think we have to understand the cultural differences that are going to be there between the two groups. Things that might make perfect sense to us NWA guys, may not at all to the DAL guys. But to the extent that both sides' no-cost items also make common sense to both sides, a wave of the wand should do it.

Carl

"NWA-centric issues?" Such as...?

Don't worry, the ATL crew lounge (including the men's room) is currently undergoing renovations. I hear they're doubling the number of sit-down fixtures and removing some of the urinals, in anticipation of the the large number of NWA pilots they're expecting to bid down here.

Since you are the resident Men's Room expert, are you that guy that keeps waving his foot underneath the other guy's stall?

Carl

I would not mind that type of list however it would be brutal on the bottom of the NWA list when the Delta retirements kick in. They would really stagnate mid career when you need to be moving up.

I agree it seems like thats how it will play out. It also creates a potential bump and flush scenario down the road as well. Basically, a new hire at NWA will have to bid the best they can when the retirements dry up and hope they don't get bumped or flushed(base changes and reductions) when the Delta retirements are at full throttle. I'm not sure what the answer is but the dynamic list is not good for the new hires 15 to 20 years down the line.

Greenslips are normally awarded by about 10 am the day prior. Unless you have a really long commute that is plenty of time to get to work. I commute and basically can fly one any time I want in the summer. In the winter they are not as available on international but I still get one about every other month and I generally limit putting one in to a few days a month. I made 190k last year with a base pay rate of 155 an hour and most months worked 12 days. Its not all bad!

None of that was explained at the road show. Probably because it's anecdotal. If what you say is really possible, then it would be great because the fat guys could stay in the hammock and the hungry guys could just pull up a chair in front of the trough. :D

Carl

It depends on how one looks at it. If you are a junior NWA pilot you will be moving up a lot as the average age at NWA is somewhere between 52-53 so they will be moving up on the NWA side. Everybody would keep their current status quo however as more NWA guys retire a NWA pilot would surpass a DAL and then when a DAL pilot retires the DAL pilot would move up etc.

I do believe there is going to be enough international flying that there will be a lot of opportunities across the list. We have (NWA) a lot of unused route authority in the pacific that R.A wants to utilize so, not to sound like a cool aid drinker, this may turn into a great place to work all things considered.

I don't think you're a Kool-Aid drinker Opus, I really think there's a chance you're right.

Carl

I agree with you Nu. I think a lot of things that are no-cost items are going to be really easy to fix with simple policy changes. When it comes to non-contract issues though, I think we have to understand the cultural differences that are going to be there between the two groups. Things that might make perfect sense to us NWA guys, may not at all to the DAL guys. But to the extent that both sides' no-cost items also make common sense to both sides, a wave of the wand should do it.

Carl


Hi Carl,

Yea, a lot of guys are having kittens over the health care, the sick time and the ramp up in the DC.

As a single guy, with a middling amount of sick bank and a fair slice of the TDC, these issues are really non-issues for me. What matters most for me are the QoL items.

I don't have much heartburn with the 70 hour reserve guarentee. From the road show, there seemed to be a couple of days less availability, which works better for commuters and guys who want to be on the hook less. OTOH, there is opportunity for reserves to fiddle with their schedule AND pick up open time, which will easily make up for the 5 hours. Overall, I think it will be a very nice change.

It was sad to lose the SL instructors. Not only do I think they provide a better "product", but it provides a nice alternative for guys tired of flying the line, looking to try something different.

There WILL be a culture change at DAL. You don't integrate a near equal number of pilots together and not get it. Hopefully the Redtails will remember what worked really well, and bring those items back up to the negotiators when the time is right.

Nu

"NWA-centric issues?" Such as...?

Don't worry, the ATL crew lounge (including the men's room) is currently undergoing renovations. I hear they're doubling the number of sit-down fixtures and removing some of the urinals, in anticipation of the the large number of NWA pilots they're expecting to bid down here.

So that's one "NWA-centric" problem they can cross off the list. :cool:

Wow Space,

Seems like you are going out of your way to cause ill will between the two pilot groups. Why is that?

So how many more quarters can you guys at DAL lose a BILLION dollars?:eek:

So how many more quarters can you guys at DAL lose a BILLION dollars?:eek:

Clearly you did not read the actual earnings report. The loss was a writedown for the decrease in stock value. Delta actually reported a 137 million dollar profit for the quarter. Only one other airline is expected to report a 2Q operating profit and that is SWA. Cash on hand went up to 4.3 Billion. The 2Q performance was actually outstanding and exceeded all expectations. The stock is up over 40% since the results were annouced. We can have quarters like this for the next 100 years and lets hope we do!!!!!!!

A lot of people just read the headlines and not the articles. :)

Hi Carl,

Yea, a lot of guys are having kittens over the health care, the sick time and the ramp up in the DC.



I still don't get it. The new contract picks up the NWA health plan along with all the Delta plans at their current rates. What's to have a kitten over? You've got the same thing you've got now if you want it. Also, Delta did away with HMO a couple of years back. The other plans aren't anything like HMO. The HSA is a very cool plan that provides a way for a family to hide about $6 grand from the taxman. The only guys that have a complaint are those that retire after the merger. Their insurance cost will go way up, as Delta charges retirees and actives separate, rather than "blending" the pool of insurance charges. With the change to age 65, how significant is that anyway?

You guys have a sick bank. We get 240 hours every year, while you guys get 60. We pay into DPMA that provides 24 additional months of income protection. You guys get a reduction in premium based on your sick bank. If a guy has two years of sick leave saved up, he gets full pay for two years at no cost. If a guy has 1 year of sick leave saved up, he gets two years of pay protection at half cost. If a guy already burned all his sick leave, he gets two additional years of pay protection at the same cost as a Delta pilot. Sick time shouldn't be an issue for you.

DC ramp up. Last time I checked you still had a DB plan that was underfunded by $1.5 billion. You're bringing that with you, and it costs money to fund. During this contract you'll be getting 6% more than your contract called for, and you're getting your DB funded from a more secure source. We're getting 3% more, and no DB funding. Where's the complaint?

None of that was explained at the road show. Probably because it's anecdotal. If what you say is really possible, then it would be great because the fat guys could stay in the hammock and the hungry guys could just pull up a chair in front of the trough. :D

Carl

Hi Carl!

The Delta guys have quite a history of parking themselves in front of the trough. We have always worshipped the W-2 here...

You are obviously not being told the full story, anecdotal or not. At Delta, if you are senior in category you have the potential for earnings well beyond your seat/category.

e.g. - I am a mid-level B-777 first-officer who routinely makes more in a month than a narrow-body captain, all while flying less days. This month I'm working 13 days for 97 hours = approximately $12,800 gross. An MD-88 captain working 15-16 days for 80 hours = approximately $11,400 gross, and that's not counting green-slips...




Kevin

DC ramp up. Last time I checked you still had a DB plan that was underfunded by $1.5 billion. You're bringing that with you, and it costs money to fund. During this contract you'll be getting 6% more than your contract called for, and you're getting your DB funded from a more secure source. We're getting 3% more, and no DB funding. Where's the complaint?

Heyas SP,

As as typical, you either completely mis-understand or mis-represent the situation.

Sure, there is a frozen DB, but the number of guys who will see anything like a full %60 FAE (or even %50) is extremely limited. Many, many pilots have a limited amount of money due to them, and it's not indexed for inflation or COLA at all. My paltry DB sum will probably amount to beer money by the time I hit 60.

There are a lot of older guys/gals, who are targeted at zero, and the DC plan takes another 2-3 years for them to even see anything. It's no wonder they're crabby.

While the underfunding is still true, the pension protection act limits the amount of funding to an almost trival amount per year, to the tune of 10-15 million dollars AT MOST, depending on the fund performance, and that's assuming guys go at 60. Once past 60, the actuarials are signficantly more favorable.

As I said, none of this really bothers me, but I DO see why guys are ****y about it. I was more ****ed about the loss of some 200 instructor positions.

Nu

I still don't get it. The new contract picks up the NWA health plan along with all the Delta plans at their current rates.

That's not the case. The NWA plan is not picked up at its current rate. There is just one plan at DAL that is more or less the same as NWA's best plan. The rate for that DAL plan is just over double what we pay at NWA. The PowerPoint presentation had it all spelled out down to the dollar.

Like I said earlier, the good outweighs the bad - in my opinion.

Carl

That's not the case. The NWA plan is not picked up at its current rate. There is just one plan at DAL that is more or less the same as NWA's best plan. The rate for that DAL plan is just over double what we pay at NWA. The PowerPoint presentation had it all spelled out down to the dollar.



Then your roadshow guys got it wrong. Here's the contract language from the JCBA:

Amend Section 25 A. to add the following definitions (new):
17. "DPMP Option N" means the medical and dental benefit option offered under the DPMP effective January 1, 2010 that is equivalent to the NWA Health Plan as it existed on January 1, 2008 (other than the basis for calculating the total projected costs).

Amend Section 25 B. 2. to delete the superfluous center columns from the two tables therein, and to insert a new third table after the second table, and before the Exception, as follows:
29

DPMP Option N
2010 and thereafter
27% of total projected costs for the applicable year
The Delta DPMP is 40% of cost. The NWA health plan will become DPMP option N and be 27% of cost. The Delta HRA and HSA plans are about 22% of cost. All plans will exist, with different structures and premiums.

Did they provide any handouts at the roadshow?

Then your roadshow guys got it wrong. Here's the contract language from the JCBA:

Amend Section 25 A. to add the following definitions (new):
17. "DPMP Option N" means the medical and dental benefit option offered under the DPMP effective January 1, 2010 that is equivalent to the NWA Health Plan as it existed on January 1, 2008 (other than the basis for calculating the total projected costs).

Amend Section 25 B. 2. to delete the superfluous center columns from the two tables therein, and to insert a new third table after the second table, and before the Exception, as follows:
29

DPMP Option N
2010 and thereafter
27% of total projected costs for the applicable year

The Delta DPMP is 40% of cost. The NWA health plan will become DPMP option N and be 27% of cost. The Delta HRA and HSA plans are about 22% of cost. All plans will exist, with different structures and premiums.



Did they provide any handouts at the roadshow?


Slow,

I appreciate your posting of the JCBA, but it's not responsive. The point is that it will cost NWA guys over double to get into that plan. They didn't have handouts, just a dollar for dollar comparison via PowerPoint.

Carl

Heyas SP,

As as typical, you either completely mis-understand or mis-represent the situation.

I don't think I misunderstand or misrepresent, but that's for you to judge.


Sure, there is a frozen DB, but the number of guys who will see anything like a full %60 FAE (or even %50) is extremely limited. Many, many pilots have a limited amount of money due to them, and it's not indexed for inflation or COLA at all. My paltry DB sum will probably amount to beer money by the time I hit 60.

I think you're factually wrong on your numbers, but correct me please! To get better than 48% FAE under the NWA plan you would have to have been hired prior to January 31, 1986. According to a seniority list running around on the ALPA boards there are 890 NWA pilots and 740 Republic guys that would exceed that amount. I don't think that's "extremely limited." All the Republic guys had their own plan prior to NWA as well. And your "paltry DB" is why you're getting TDC, and you'll get way more because of this merger.



There are a lot of older guys/gals, who are targeted at zero, and the DC plan takes another 2-3 years for them to even see anything. It's no wonder they're crabby.

Yeah, I feel for them. If they're getting zero in TDC it means they've got a 50% or better retirement based on pre-bankruptcy rates. I'll take 50% of Whale Captain at $250 per hour rather than 60% of $200 at the end of this contract, and we're not getting anywhere close to that in percentage! Those "hard frozen" DB's are far better than what a guy getting average TDC will receive in a career. Plus, with this contract the zeros start getting DC at least two years sooner than they otherwise would have and it's a lot more in dollars.

I acknowledge that DC is money in my name, and that has its own value. I had a DB once, and wouldn't want to go back.


While the underfunding is still true, the pension protection act limits the amount of funding to an almost trival amount per year, to the tune of 10-15 million dollars AT MOST, depending on the fund performance, and that's assuming guys go at 60. Once past 60, the actuarials are signficantly more favorable.

Hogwash. The Pension Protection Act is like an adjustable rate mortgage. Our R&I guys said it cost $26 million to fund last year. This year it probably cost less than $10 million because the market did so well in 2007. Now that all those gains have been given back it'll cost a heckuva lot more next year, probably $50 million. That doesn't take into account what happens when the funding relief expires. Overnight the assumed rate of return will go from 9% down to 6.5%. How's that adjustable rate mortgage going to look? By the way, how many of your guys are going at 60 and how many are staying?

I'm not trying to pick a fight here. If my facts are incorrect, let me know.

Slow,

I appreciate your posting of the JCBA, but it's not responsive. The point is that it will cost NWA guys over double to get into that plan. They didn't have handouts, just a dollar for dollar comparison via PowerPoint.

Carl

I still say they got it wrong. Our guys said it would be a lower cost alternative to the current DPMP. The point you highlighted was explained to us as the active/retiree vs blended pool thing. The only guys getting hit by the higher Delta premiums in this are those NWA guys that retire after DCC. They don't get the mixed rate they used to have.

Tell you what, when your premiums come out in 2010, will you treat me as well as Danny Newnan if I'm right?

slowplay,

once again I see you're stirring the pot again. It's been months since I last responded to anything you wrote but I will endeavor to bang my head against the wall again to refute the noise you put out.

First, our pension is close to be fully funded and is on track to being fully funded by 2012, coincidental date, further a good portion of the retired pilots are not actualizing their pensions to the accounting date of liability, meaning they die. Our pension is tied to variety of markets from bonds to stocks. One of the reasons we took a larger paycut, or so it was sold to us, was to protect the pension for our retired and close to retired pilots. I have a good friend who retired from DAL in Dec 03 and he is getting jack now! Is that right?

You want to complain about the domain of 17-50 million a year that our pension will costs, if it is that, then you are looking for things to complain about. You should be glad that NWA kept their pension as this will increase the probability that our pilots will leave the property at age 60. As for how many pilots we have been kicking out since January, I believe the number is 78% but you can look for yourself on ezopenboard.com, plug for you Steve! It is free and just look up where's waldo and it will show you who, per position not by name,is leaving. (this also does not include the perp program which is targeting close to 300 pilots to leave)

So, here you have it. I hope you don't represent the average DAL pilot as this would make for a miserable integrated cockpit, excuse me flight deck.

I still say they got it wrong. Our guys said it would be a lower cost alternative to the current DPMP. The point you highlighted was explained to us as the active/retiree vs blended pool thing. The only guys getting hit by the higher Delta premiums in this are those NWA guys that retire after DCC. They don't get the mixed rate they used to have.

Tell you what, when your premiums come out in 2010, will you treat me as well as Danny Newnan if I'm right?

Our MEC (just like your MEC) really wants this thing to happen. So does Anderson and Bastian etal. I don't see why our MEC would exaggerate a negative when they are trying to sell it. All I can do is go by what I read.

Be the ball slowplay....beeee the baaall!

Carl

Our MEC (just like your MEC) really wants this thing to happen. So does Anderson and Bastian etal. I don't see why our MEC would exaggerate a negative when they are trying to sell it. All I can do is go by what I read.

Carl

I guess that's my confusion. Our guys told us the NWA health plan was one of the good things of this JCBA. Your guys are telling you you're losing it.

I sure hope my guys are right. Losing that health plan would be bad.

Hey Delta Pilots,

This "green slip flying," is it awarded on a first come first serve basis, or do the schedulers give it to you after a certain time?

For example, if I'm looking on the "open board" and see a trip at 12 noon and call the scheduler at 12:01, can he/she give it to me right then? Or, do they have to wait until 9 pm to award it to the most senior bidder?

Or, even better, is the scheduler even involved at all? Can you do it on the computer, human free?

Also, how do you book your jumpseats? Computer, phone, human operator? I ask, because I wonder who enforces this crazy 4 1/2, 3/1/2 and whatever other restriction applies system?

Thanks.

Hey Delta Pilots,

This "green slip flying," is it awarded on a first come first serve basis, or do the schedulers give it to you after a certain time?

For example, if I'm looking on the "open board" and see a trip at 12 noon and call the scheduler at 12:01, can he/she give it to me right then? Or, do they have to wait until 9 pm to award it to the most senior bidder?

Or, even better, is the scheduler even involved at all? Can you do it on the computer, human free?

Also, how do you book your jumpseats? Computer, phone, human operator? I ask, because I wonder who enforces this crazy 4 1/2, 3/1/2 and whatever other restriction applies system?

Thanks.


Scheduler is involved, and it goes strictly by seniority...

When a trip come into open time, Skeds looks at reserve coverage, etc. If they decide they don't have enough reserves it goes to "green-slip"...

The scheduler pulls the list of those who have volunteered for a green-slip and goes right down the list from senior to junior calling...

You have 10 minutes to respond or he moves to the next pilot on the list...

Seniority is not always respected in that a senior guy may have a green slip in but not be called due to FAR/contractual issues...

If you don't answer the phone, you don't get it...

That's good because then you have 10 minutes to decide if you really want the green-slip...





Kevin

The 10 minute rule I believe is for less the 12 hours coverage. If they are calling you the day prior they seem to allow a lot of time. You can look at the open time for the next day. They usually start covering the next days trips about 8 am. The automated coverage list is run at 7 am. It does not include GS trips. They are still manually done. Depending on how busy they are they can be done by 9 or as late as 1 pm. Normally all the next days trips are covered by about 10 am. If a trip pops up for next days coverage during the day it is normally covered right away. You can watch all this in the computer real time as it happens if you are having a very boring day.

The jumpseat is done over the phone, using the VRU. The system is smart enough to look at your schedule and know when you're starting or ending a trip. So, if you're trying to book a js 3 1/2 days prior but there's no trip on your schedule that meets the timeframe, it won't give it to you since it assumes you're going to js for personal travel.

There's also a live person that works a jumpseat desk who you can talk to if there are any problems.

I wish we could reserve on the computer. Maybe that will be one of the "synergies" we'll get from the merger.

Also, in an earlier post I wrote that I didn't see the advantage of booking the js 10 days in advance. I didn't realize you guys had so many long rotations. Now it makes more sense. We have a few long trips (I'm doing a 7-day Africa jaunt in a couple of weeks) but there aren't too many. You'll have to teach your wife/gf/whatever how to use the VRU to get the js for you.

The jumpseat is done over the phone, using the VRU. The system is smart enough to look at your schedule and know when you're starting or ending a trip. So, if you're trying to book a js 3 1/2 days prior but there's no trip on your schedule that meets the timeframe, it won't give it to you since it assumes you're going to js for personal travel.

There's also a live person that works a jumpseat desk who you can talk to if there are any problems.

I wish we could reserve on the computer. Maybe that will be one of the "synergies" we'll get from the merger.

Also, in an earlier post I wrote that I didn't see the advantage of booking the js 10 days in advance. I didn't realize you guys had so many long rotations. Now it makes more sense. We have a few long trips (I'm doing a 7-day Africa jaunt in a couple of weeks) but there aren't too many. You'll have to teach your wife/gf/whatever how to use the VRU to get the js for you.

We can list for the jumpseat online now on the NWA side and i agree its very nice to have that ability.

We can list for the jumpseat online now on the NWA side and i agree its very nice to have that ability.

I have no idea what I'm going to to without ezopenboard.com.

I hope the creator can e something like it done on the DAL computer system. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the info DAL guys/gals!!

After watching the roadshow,I think I'm moving from undecided to a guarded "yeah, ok."

I hope the New Delta will be as great as they think it will be.

Prediction though:

I think the NWA side will see A LOT of early retirements in the next 6 months, then everyone will go at 60. The difference in health care costs for going early is punishing!!! If I were 55+, I would be gone! :eek: (Or more accurately, on my boat)


New K Now

I flew with Steve (creator of ezopenboard) last month and he felt pretty confident that when we do switch over to DAL he will be able to adapt to DAL computer system. He didn't forsee the tech guys having a problem with it.

I have no idea what I'm going to to without ezopenboard.com.

I hope the creator can e something like it done on the DAL computer system. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the info DAL guys/gals!!

After watching the roadshow,I think I'm moving from undecided to a guarded "yeah, ok."

I hope the New Delta will be as great as they think it will be.

Prediction though:

I think the NWA side will see A LOT of early retirements in the next 6 months, then everyone will go at 60. The difference in health care costs for going early is punishing!!! If I were 55+, I would be gone! :eek: (Or more accurately, on my boat)


New K Now

I didnt think yall would have that many reirements due to the fact that the guys are making good $ and will get an equity payout...but healthcare might do it.

Now, if there is a way folks can keep your old healthcare and get the equity, etc....they might stay?

I didnt think yall would have that many reirements due to the fact that the guys are making good $ and will get an equity payout...but healthcare might do it.

Now, if there is a way folks can keep your old healthcare and get the equity, etc....they might stay?

The buzz in the crew rooms from alot of the senior guys as well as ALPA is that the leaving before merger equals more money than what would be recieved in equity. The perps close in a little over a week so we should know soon what the verdict will be.

We continue to have retirements now even without the perps. So not everyone is concerned about the early out or equity. We'll see how it all plays out.

I guess that's my confusion. Our guys told us the NWA health plan was one of the good things of this JCBA. Your guys are telling you you're losing it.

I sure hope my guys are right. Losing that health plan would be bad.

Maybe we've just been talking past each other here. We did keep the good NWA health plan in the JCBA. I think DAL guys will find it to be a good thing about the JCBA. The problem is that an NWA pilot will have to pay over double for it. Our guys say they simply could not negotiate the cost down to our current level.

Carl

I didnt think yall would have that many reirements due to the fact that the guys are making good $ and will get an equity payout...but healthcare might do it.

Now, if there is a way folks can keep your old healthcare and get the equity, etc....they might stay?

We talked about this quite a bit at the Tokyo road show. Our guys were befuddled by the huge increase in early retiree health care premiums. Their take on it was two-fold: First was that it will probably result in a big spike in early retirements before the TA is signed so that guys can retire under the old system. Second though, was that it would put a damper on retirements in the future because people couldn't afford 1,900 per month for the insurance premiums.

I think we need to do everything we can to "assist" us old farts out the door. Paying such a huge penalty for early retirement health care does not do that. Maybe they could exempt the top 1,000 guys. There has to be some way to accomplish what everybody wants, we just need to devise the solution and implement it.

Carl

I didnt think yall would have that many reirements due to the fact that the guys are making good $ and will get an equity payout...but healthcare might do it.

Now, if there is a way folks can keep your old healthcare and get the equity, etc....they might stay?


Yeah. Healthcare is it. For NWA guys the difference is:

Early retire before the merger goes thru pay close to $600 for health care.

Early retire after the merger goes thru: pay over $1900 for healthcare.

And I hope that's per month.

Either way, that would do it for me.

Yeah. Healthcare is it. For NWA guys the difference is:

Early retire before the merger goes thru pay close to $600 for health care.

Early retire after the merger goes thru: pay over $1900 for healthcare.

And I hope that's per month.

Either way, that would do it for me.

That's true in the short term, but that huge premium increase is a disincentive for pilots who wish to retire early in the future.

Carl

That's true in the short term, but that huge premium increase is a disincentive for pilots who wish to retire early in the future.

Carl

Yes. That's my prediction (post 125).

A flood of early retirements in the next 6 months. Then everyone after will be age 60 retirements.

I have to wonder if the "NO" voters on the DAL side read LOA 19. If either pilot group votes no on the JPWA, it could unravel the whole merger. Certainly if one MEC is opposed to the deal without joint consent, a no vote by the opposite group will give them ample ammunition to say that "the pilots do not support this merger and thus cost savings due to synergies will not be realized." LOA 19 has an effective date of DCC. In other words if there is no DCC, LOA 19 is worthless. Just a thought.

I have to wonder if the "NO" voters on the DAL side read LOA 19. LOA 19 has an effective date of DCC. In other words if there is no DCC, LOA 19 is worthless. Just a thought.

If YOU had read LOA 19, you would know that you are wrong.

I If either pilot group votes no on the JPWA, it could unravel the whole merger.

I think it's highly unlikely that a "no" vote would scuttle this merger.

Which part am i Not understanding?

A.
Purpose
This Letter of Agreement sets forth modifications to the PWA that will apply to pilots upon
the date of corporate closing (DCC) of Delta’s acquisition of Northwest Airlines Corporation.
B.
Applicability
This LOA will take effect on the DCC. If and to the extent that a corporate transaction
between Delta and Northwest includes the creation of a new corporation which becomes the
employer of the pilots formerly employed by Delta, or if such a new corporation is formed
following such corporate transaction, then Delta will not enter into, conclude, or implement
the transaction, or the subsequent formation of such corporation, unless it does so in
accordance with Section 1 F. including that the new corporation agrees, in writing, as a
material and irrevocable condition of the transaction or such formation to assume and be
bound by the PWA.

A No vote with a promise of a US/AWA type merger can weigh heavily on Wall Street.

So, we starting a pool on this or what?

Nu

Scheduler is involved, and it goes strictly by seniority...

When a trip come into open time, Skeds looks at reserve coverage, etc. If they decide they don't have enough reserves it goes to "green-slip"...

The scheduler pulls the list of those who have volunteered for a green-slip and goes right down the list from senior to junior calling...

You have 10 minutes to respond or he moves to the next pilot on the list...

Seniority is not always respected in that a senior guy may have a green slip in but not be called due to FAR/contractual issues...

If you don't answer the phone, you don't get it...

That's good because then you have 10 minutes to decide if you really want the green-slip...





Kevin

Just to add a little additional info... The GS "list" is generated 3 times/day. You must have a GS request in prior to 7am, noon, and 6pm. If, as in the example above where he saw a trip at noon, and put in a request at 12:01, the pilot would be inserted into the GS list at the bottom of the list. If you see it at 11:55, and get in a GS at 11:59, when the list is generated at noon, you should be in your proper seniority rank. Believe me.. I have had this happen. But... you can leave a blanket GS request in for the entire month, and if your seniority, and availablilty warrant, you will be in the running. As far as being awarded a GS for a specific trip, you had better see that trip in open time prior to those windows, or as I said above, you would go to the bottom of the list (if you GS that SPECIFIC trip). I hope this helps.

The standing qualifiers work well. I have had a few this month. About 20 hrs of overtime.

Deleted......harsher than I ment it to sound.