Airline Pilot Forums

101 pilots applied for perps (NWA early out program) as of noon today. (2% of the pilot group) Quite a bit for a 30 day period.

Good news. When is the deadline for filing PERP application?

Good news. When is the deadline for filing PERP application?

I think it's 5 pm today, Mecca time. :)

So what? they won't be off the property for a year at least...

So what? they won't be off the property for a year at least...

Dude. If they have any sick time, they won't be back on property.

Dude. If they have any sick time, they won't be back on property.

Yup. They're gone. They'll all be spending Thanksgiving at home.

Nu

No, the perps are for September so all who participate will be out for September flying. They get 5 months of pay plus other benefits but they will be officially retired.

115 was the closing number.

where did you guys see the numbers? The next big question is how many will leave prior to DCC that weren't eligible or weren't awarded a PERP? Also is there any info about what positions had the most people awarded?

Superpilot,

Go to the nwa alpa message board, pilot to pilot section, and click on perps.

thanks .

101 pilots applied for perps (NWA early out program) as of noon today. (2% of the pilot group) Quite a bit for a 30 day period.



Another board is putting out that NWA only approved 50 of 115 PERP applications, and that many of those approved were LTS. Is that true?

I don't know about the long-term sick part, but the number 50 is true.

Maybe they think many will leave regardless or the perps. That or they think we could be short people in the near term if this moves quickly.

My guess we have a lot of people put in for retirement outside the PERPs prior to the DCC> We'll see.

51 actually, but that was just for September there will be more approved for Oct/Nov.

So, will these guys be out before the SLI is done, or will they be in the pecking order still?

My guess is out.

Well, if the SLI team is currently meeting, and they are using the latest seniority list, these guys are on it. My thinking is they'll be on it when the new list is made (assuming it's done this month) and even though we aren't yet merged, NWA guys below them on the current NWA list will lose out slightly on the merged list, whereas if the list is not completed until November, they might be gone and it will improve our relative position by at least a few numbers. Or, will the SLI team have the foresight to take these pilots who were approved for early retirement out of the equation now? Selfish, I know, and I apologize, but I'm really just concerned about what's in it for me :-)

Aren't we all to some extent.

Well, if the SLI team is currently meeting, and they are using the latest seniority list, these guys are on it. My thinking is they'll be on it when the new list is made (assuming it's done this month) and even though we aren't yet merged, NWA guys below them on the current NWA list will lose out slightly on the merged list, whereas if the list is not completed until November, they might be gone and it will improve our relative position by at least a few numbers. Or, will the SLI team have the foresight to take these pilots who were approved for early retirement out of the equation now? Selfish, I know, and I apologize, but I'm really just concerned about what's in it for me :-)

the question was brought up during the Perp Q&A and they said it was being "looked into". We'll see

My guess is that this will go to arbitration and they will be out.

Guess we will all find out after the JPWA ratification window closes.

51 actually, but that was just for September there will be more approved for Oct/Nov.

Is there a new application window, or will only the original 115 be allowed to participate?

Gone is good, for both sides...;)

should be a new window and anyone not allowed should be able to reapply. 51 people this round are gone by the end of the month.

Perhaps a senior NWA pilot can comment on why only 115 applied for the program. We have been hearing over and over again that a huge number were ready to leave. It seems like there would have been a lot more applications. Does NWA offer a lump sum on their retirement? If no then what are the advantages of staying if you planned on leaving in the next year or so?

Perhaps a senior NWA pilot can comment on why only 115 applied for the program. We have been hearing over and over again that a huge number were ready to leave. It seems like there would have been a lot more applications. Does NWA offer a lump sum on their retirement? If no then what are the advantages of staying if you planned on leaving in the next year or so?


I'm not that senior, but keep in mind that thoase who were eligible had to decide -- in a matter of weeks -- if they were going to have their last flight sometime in August. Combine that with the factors like:

1. A lot of those guys have a couple of thousand hours of sick time.
2. Almost all have 15 hours of negative bank to fly back. (Not sure if the PERP dealt with that)
3. PERP is a rolling offer that will be extended every month, at least until the end of the year.

I would probably wait, too.

More telling about the PERP awards is that they gave none to -400 or 330 captains, which tells me that they are anticipating being short in those positions in the near term. Ie. new staffing requirements.

New K Now

Perhaps a senior NWA pilot can comment on why only 115 applied for the program. We have been hearing over and over again that a huge number were ready to leave. It seems like there would have been a lot more applications. Does NWA offer a lump sum on their retirement? If no then what are the advantages of staying if you planned on leaving in the next year or so?

First of all, they offered no PERPS to 747-400 or A330 Captains. That was a surprise. Second is the huge hit in early retirement medical coverage. If you leave early, family coverage costs $1,900 per month. I definitely think that unwelcome surprise has made some folks pause.

There is no lump sum offer for our retirement. The only lump sum is the 5 months of pay for PERPing out.

I still believe a lot of folks will want to PERP out, but that medical coverage cost really needs to change. We ought to be incentivising senior folks to leave, not punishing them for leaving.

Carl

First of all, they offered no PERPS to 747-400 or A330 Captains. That was a surprise. Second is the huge hit in early retirement medical coverage. If you leave early, family coverage costs $1,900 per month. I definitely think that unwelcome surprise has made some folks pause.

There is no lump sum offer for our retirement. The only lump sum is the 5 months of pay for PERPing out.

I still believe a lot of folks will want to PERP out, but that medical coverage cost really needs to change. We ought to be incentivising senior folks to leave, not punishing them for leaving.

Carl

Welcome to the new world of working through retirement. This is no different than the plight regarding medical benefits faced by non-airline soon to be retirees like my parents. While I agree it should be less, as a younger pilot in my upper 30s who has subsidized the senior pilots for 12 years I don't feel like paying anymore through reduced wages so they can have lower health care. The fact is that if you're retiring, the kids have left the house and you enjoyed the most lucrative career seen by airline pilots. You are going out with a pension, a paid for house, and years of making top dollar that should have been invested.

It should be no surprise that health care costs have risen. $1900 for a family seems incredibly high to me but is that for a family of five or you and your wife? However, what is a realistic amount? $500/month. If so, that's $1400 per pilot per month that will need to come from somewhere. I would rather put that in my pocket so I can save for a retirement funded by me or pay off a house, or simply make back the 50% paycut taken over the past three years.

The A330/747-400 issue is probably the result of the new work rules. There will have to be a lot more Captains on the 400 and some additional on the 330 if the rumors are true about the 330 picking up some of the ER over 12 flying.

Not all of it. Some of it. Most of the 330's do not have the range needed if they carry full payload.
From the boys over on VA. Ave they will see a lot of South America, Western Europe and a few other places, but there is a place for the ER for some time to come.

I'm not that senior, but keep in mind that thoase who were eligible had to decide -- in a matter of weeks -- if they were going to have their last flight sometime in August. Combine that with the factors like:

1. A lot of those guys have a couple of thousand hours of sick time.
2. Almost all have 15 hours of negative bank to fly back. (Not sure if the PERP dealt with that)
3. PERP is a rolling offer that will be extended every month, at least until the end of the year.

I would probably wait, too.

More telling about the PERP awards is that they gave none to -400 or 330 captains, which tells me that they are anticipating being short in those positions in the near term. Ie. new staffing requirements.

New K Now

Combine that with the fact that the company probably feels alot of those guys on the 330 and 400 will retire on their own and not have to pay them the 5 months pay. Those guys are the more senior and typically the older guys that have alot of incentives to leave prior to DCC even without the PERP.

My guess is we see more guys put their papers in early next month. Via the PERP Q&A there were a number of guys that said they were leaving even if they didnt get the perp. One of the popular questions was when should i submit so i get my paperwork in before DCC. We'll see.

Welcome to the new world of working through retirement. This is no different than the plight regarding medical benefits faced by non-airline soon to be retirees like my parents. While I agree it should be less, as a younger pilot in my upper 30s who has subsidized the senior pilots for 12 years I don't feel like paying anymore through reduced wages so they can have lower health care.

If you have to work through retirement, why retire? And as far as subsidizing goes, when you've been with Delta for 25 years and you hear some young idiot say what you just said, you'll wish you had more sense back then.

The fact is that if you're retiring, the kids have left the house and you enjoyed the most lucrative career seen by airline pilots. You are going out with a pension, a paid for house, and years of making top dollar that should have been invested.

What I've highlighted is exactly the point. Non-medical early retirement is a CHOICE. I would have thought it a good idea not to punish pilots who make that CHOICE. But since you think the concept of not punishing pilots who voluntarily retire early amounts to more "subsidization" on the part of junior pilots...fine. Senior pilots should just stay til 60 or 65. Wouldn't want anybody "subsidizing" anyone now would we.

Carl

Combine that with the fact that the company probably feels alot of those guys on the 330 and 400 will retire on their own and not have to pay them the 5 months pay. Those guys are the more senior and typically the older guys that have alot of incentives to leave prior to DCC even without the PERP.

My guess is we see more guys put their papers in early next month. Via the PERP Q&A there were a number of guys that said they were leaving even if they didnt get the perp. One of the popular questions was when should i submit so i get my paperwork in before DCC. We'll see.

I think you're exactly right Super. Early retirements before the DCC won't be subject to the 1,900 per month medical insurance premiums. After the DCC, retirements could be much less than anyone thought.

Carl

If you have to work through retirement, why retire? And as far as subsidizing goes, when you've been with Delta for 25 years and you hear some young idiot say what you just said, you'll wish you had more sense back then.



What I've highlighted is exactly the point. Non-medical early retirement is a CHOICE. I would have thought it a good idea not to punish pilots who make that CHOICE. But since you think the concept of not punishing pilots who voluntarily retire early amounts to more "subsidization" on the part of junior pilots...fine. Senior pilots should just stay til 60 or 65. Wouldn't want anybody "subsidizing" anyone now would we.

Carl

Carl, not being able to retire is precisely my point. My parents are 65 and are working and will continue to work for the forseeable future because among other things they can't pay for health insurance. I am completely upset by the fact that their/your generation may not be able to retire as did their parents and enjoy the golden years. However, why am I an idiot? Because I don't want to take a paycut AGAIN? Please, when the furloughees at NWA hit the street how much of your salary did you volunteer to some furlough fund for their QOL? Did it amount to $1900/month per furloughee? I can categorically state that you did not because none of my NWA friends who were furloughed received such a benefit. As a result, the senior guys benefited from no paycuts maintaining their $240/hour schedules while the junior guys took 100% paycuts with kids, mortgages, etc. I realize that's the nature of the beast but calling me an idiot? Come on Carl.

If you have to work through retirement, why retire? And as far as subsidizing goes, when you've been with Delta for 25 years and you hear some young idiot say what you just said, you'll wish you had more sense back then.



What I've highlighted is exactly the point. Non-medical early retirement is a CHOICE. I would have thought it a good idea not to punish pilots who make that CHOICE. But since you think the concept of not punishing pilots who voluntarily retire early amounts to more "subsidization" on the part of junior pilots...fine. Senior pilots should just stay til 60 or 65. Wouldn't want anybody "subsidizing" anyone now would we.

Carl

And by the way, I rent a house, choose not to have kids because I don't want to put them through this insane lifestyle, drive old cars, etc. I'm saving and investing as much as I can so at 25 years, I'm out on my accord. I won't care what the young pilot thinks because I won't need him for my financial well being. That's something I've learned as a youngster that you older guys would be wise to heed.

Just so you know(not that you will believe something that is inconvienient to your point) but at NWA we paid an assessment that paid the COBRA payment so our furloughees had health insurance. We did not pull up the ladder on our junior pilots. If your friends didn't or claim not to have had health insurance I would recheck their honesty. By the way the most senior positions took the largest paycuts in the CHapt 11 and OUR pay was below the management opener in the 1113C proceedings in order to prop up the junior position pay rates. (relative to the MGT opening positions). By the way I second Carl's opionion.

I think you're exactly right Super. Early retirements before the DCC won't be subject to the 1,900 per month medical insurance premiums. After the DCC, retirements could be much less than anyone thought.

Carl

Not to mention that there will be an equity payout somewhere along the way too...

DAL4EVER,

Lets not get into a junior/senior fray here over something that is out of our hands. Carl is an easy target here, also so its not fair to single him out...he never said junior people need to pay for or offset his health care. Also, I am positive that all the ALPA legacy carriers chipped in for COBRA payments post 9/11 to some degree.

This is a National problem....the health care system is broken and its not Carl's fault. Actually I blame the Baby Boomers in general for all of our problems...heheheh. But I digress....

Its pretty insane that someone would have to pay $2000/month for "insurance" of any kind. How the heck are you supposed to plan for that when just 10 years ago none of us paid a dime for this coverage?

Anyway, I'm a 30-something with a house, kid, no pension but I'm not throwing rocks at the senior guys just because they have a pension and had better career earnings than I did. I just encourage them to eat lots of cheese.

As Spalding would say, "are you gonna eat your fat?"

However, why am I an idiot? Because I don't want to take a paycut AGAIN?

I don't think you are necessarily an idiot. Sometimes even smart people say idiotic things. For example, your statement that because the entire airline took across the board paycuts - it really amounted to junior pilots subsidizing senior pilots. I hope by now that even you see that as a statement to be retraced.

Please, when the furloughees at NWA hit the street how much of your salary did you volunteer to some furlough fund for their QOL? Did it amount to $1900/month per furloughee? I can categorically state that you did not because none of my NWA friends who were furloughed received such a benefit.

Utter nonesense. You haven't a clue of what you are talking about.

As a result, the senior guys benefited from no paycuts maintaining their $240/hour schedules while the junior guys took 100% paycuts with kids, mortgages, etc.

$240/hour schedules??? We took an even larger percentage paycut so that our junior people had a smaller percentage paycut. So mine wasn't a $240/hour schedule, it was a $175/hour schedule. A significant percentage paycut as anyone can see. In our case, many of our furloughed pilots did not get a 100% pay cut. They are now flying for UPS, FEDEX, NetJets, etc., and are NOT coming back. So, again...you haven't a clue of what you are talking about.

I realize that's the nature of the beast but calling me an idiot? Come on Carl.

Again, I did not call YOU an idiot. I said you've said some idiotic things. And by the way, with this latest post of your's, you're not showing much sign of improvement.

Carl

Anyway, I'm a 30-something with a house, kid, no pension but I'm not throwing rocks at the senior guys just because they have a pension and had better career earnings than I did. I just encourage them to eat lots of cheese.

As Spalding would say, "are you gonna eat your fat?"

Now that's funny. :D

Carl

I don't think you are necessarily an idiot. Sometimes even smart people say idiotic things. For example, your statement that because the entire airline took across the board paycuts - it really amounted to junior pilots subsidizing senior pilots. I hope by now that even you see that as a statement to be retraced.



Utter nonesense. You haven't a clue of what you are talking about.



$240/hour schedules??? We took an even larger percentage paycut so that our junior people had a smaller percentage paycut. So mine wasn't a $240/hour schedule, it was a $175/hour schedule. A significant percentage paycut as anyone can see. In our case, many of our furloughed pilots did not get a 100% pay cut. They are now flying for UPS, FEDEX, NetJets, etc., and are NOT coming back. So, again...you haven't a clue of what you are talking about.



Again, I did not call YOU an idiot. I said you've said some idiotic things. And by the way, with this latest post of your's, you're not showing much sign of improvement.

Carl


You implied I was an idiot by saying the "young idiot" at DAL. But rather than let this get into a stupid eighth grade school yard fight I am willing to concede that my post was incendiary and was perhaps an insult. I apologize as I try to avoid those games particularly when we all hide behind our airlinepilotforums identities.

I agree with a previous post that this is a national problem. On a prior post I indicated I see my parents suffering from this as well as my wife's parents. They are unable to retire because they will lose their benefits. In essence we are becoming indentured servants to corporate America. Get old, rather than be rewarded for your hard work and effort you are told to make way for the cheaper, newer worker and lose the ability to support yourself. So people find a menial job that merely tides them over for benefits but insults their experience and talents.

I have no idea what the solution is. National health care? I don't think that's the answer. Is anyone happy the way the FAA is run, how are infrastructure is maintained, waiting hours at a DMV, the school system, etc. Now, have the very same ineptitude run our health care? Scares me. However, the system is broken and I can't pretend to know how you fix it. I do know, that these years will go by quick and that we should all be frightened that if a family is paying $1900/month for premiums what will it be like in 20 or 30 years?

Again I apologize for my previous posts as they were offensive. I guess I had to much sun on a California layover. No excuse though.

Again I apologize for my previous posts as they were offensive. I guess I had to much sun on a California layover. No excuse though.

Gladly accepted bud. :):D

Carl

Is anyone happy the way the FAA is run, how are infrastructure is maintained, waiting hours at a DMV, the school system, etc. Now, have the very same ineptitude run our health care?

Do you have a problem with the police department or the fire department? They are socialized programs that work.

Do you have a problem with the police department or the fire department? They are socialized programs that work.

Looks like someone saw Sicko. :rolleyes:

(Yes, this thread is now dead because it will descend into the nastiest political discussion imagined.)

National health care is fire on here!!!

I'll save this thread. Green book PERPS rule! I don't even know what I'm saying but this is sure to get us back off the health care deviation.

Funny.
Never talk religion or politics. I try not to unless I know the person I am talking to agrees with me.

Yes!!! Green book PERPS rule!!!! You saved it and believe it or not, you made sense. :D