Airline Pilot Forums

RA's proposed fleet untilization after DCC.

B-787 rumored Service 2010/2011

ATL- KIX
JFK-NRT
LAX-KIX
LAX-NGO

Possible network add
ATL-LAX-SYD 744
In 09 or 10
ATL-HKG 77L
ATL-JNB 77L
ATL-GLA 752
JFK-GVA 752
JFK-LIS 752
JFK-ARN 752
JFK-BHX 752
JFK-HAM 752
JFK-CPH 752
JFK-ZRH 763
DTW-DUB 752
DTW-ICN 772
DTW-MAN 752
DTW-ZRH 752

Possible Replacements
ATL-CDG 744 REP 764
ATL-EZE 764 REP 763
ATL-GRU 744 REP 764
ATL-FCO 333 REP 763
ATL-LHR 744 REP 764
ATL-MAD 333 REP764
ATL-NRT 744 REP 772
ATL-SCL 764 REP 763
ATL-ZRH 764 REP 763
JFK-CAI 332 REP 763
JFK-FCO 744 REP 763
JFK-GRU 764 REP 763
JFK-LHR 744 REP 763
JFK-MAD 333REP763
JFK-MXP 333 REP763
JFK-TLV 332 REP763
MSP-AMS 763 REP333
MSP-HNL 763 REP333
MSP-LHR 763REP333
MSP-NRT 772 REP744
PDX-AMS 763 REP332
PDX-NRT 763 REP332
BOS-AMS 763 REP333
DTW-AMS 763REP333
DTW-CDG 764REP333
DTW-FRA 763REP333
DTW-NGO 772REP744
DTW-NRT 772REP744
JFK-AMM 332REP763
JFK-ATH 764REP763

Possible terminations
AMS-BOM
AMS-BOS #2 752
AMS-DTW #4 752
AMS-EWR #2 752
AMS-MEM A 333
CVG-FRA 763
CVG-LGW 763
HNL-KIX 744
HNL-PDX 753
KIX-GUM 752
KIX-TPE 744
MSP-AMS #2 A333
MSP-NRT #2 744
NGO-GUM 752
NGO-MAN 744
NGO-SPN 752
NGO-GUM #2 752
NRT-HNL 744
NRT-HNL A333

I've heard that the GRU-ATL-NRT is a huge market as there are a ton of Japanese traveling to Brazil. Apparently, it may be done with the same flight number as there is currently no service from Japan to Brazil. Therefore it would be a one stop flight. The possibilities are very compelling.

And where did you get this little tidbit?

And where did you get this little tidbit?

A nice little birdie.

What's a '333' and '332?'

What's a '333' and '332?'

A330-200 and A330-300. The -300 is the stretched version. Of course, any NWA pilot can chime.

333-A330-300 which carries 298 people but less fuel, the 332-200 has center tanks and is capable of going much further distances (with less people though).

All I have to say is that is a very good list for the plans to date.

Now post the list for the 88, 73N,320 and 9 schedule changes. That one will make your little head swim.
Can we say equipment and or base change in the next three years.

Now post the list for the 88, 73N,320 and 9 schedule changes. That one will make your little head swim.
Can we say equipment and or base change in the next three years.

Can we say "fences" so we don't give the company the flexibility to put that much of a disruption on our lives?

Can we say "fences" so we don't give the company the flexibility to put that much of a disruption on our lives?

Fences dont stop them from moving aircraft around to other bases so a fence would be pointless in stopping the disruption. After all that was one of the "synergies" with the merger.

I've heard that the GRU-ATL-NRT is a huge market as there are a ton of Japanese traveling to Brazil. Apparently, it may be done with the same flight number as there is currently no service from Japan to Brazil. Therefore it would be a one stop flight. The possibilities are very compelling.

I think JAL flys to Sao Paulo. I saw JAL 747-400s there last time I was there.

Wow, you can really tell that they have the Continental guy on their route structure with all the JFK to Europe flight on the 752. That's all CAL does from EWR.

BTW, DTW-ZRH in a 752? Not bloody likely, that's a haul.

If you do see fences you will see our crew resources/planners making 12+ day international trips so that they can benefit from all different bases where the airplanes will be flying out of. It will take care of all of the DH issues.
(FWIW that is what they told me)

If it was one 12 day trip that paid 80 hours and I was done for the month, sign me up.

[quote=slinky;443439]If it was one 12 day trip that paid 80 hours and I was done for the month, sign me up.[/quote


THOSE ARE THE KIND OF TRIPS THAT WE HAVE AT NWA INTERNATIONALLY. NOT ALL BUT QUITE A FEW OF THEM AND HAVE BEEN DOING THEM FOR YEARS 20 YEARS TO BE EXACT.

Wow, you can really tell that they have the Continental guy on their route structure with all the JFK to Europe flight on the 752. That's all CAL does from EWR.

BTW, DTW-ZRH in a 752? Not bloody likely, that's a haul.

IF it's the right size aircraft for the market, great. Rumor had it we (DAL) weren't making much on the JFK-BRU market with the 767, and when it changed to a 757, the revenue went thru the roof. Hauenstein is the best management guy to come to DAL in the entire time I have been on the property... I know that ain't sayin' much, since we have had some real winners, but CAL really lost a good one with this guy...

If it was one 12 day trip that paid 80 hours and I was done for the month, sign me up.

Slinky,

Just got home from one. Thirteen day (were 12 pre-bankruptcy) 757 Guam and Saipan beach extravaganza. Went over on the 31st and done for the month. A commuters dream......but wife hates them (stuff always happens when your gone ya know).

Ferd

A nice little birdie.

A "highly placed source" I'll bet... sheeesh Fun to contemplate I'll admit, but worthless as information.

That birdie told me about the 747 going from Brazil through ATL to NRT. Agreed, much information from birds is worthless but on this one example he seemed correct.

IF it's the right size aircraft for the market, great. Rumor had it we (DAL) weren't making much on the JFK-BRU market with the 767, and when it changed to a 757, the revenue went thru the roof. Hauenstein is the best management guy to come to DAL in the entire time I have been on the property... I know that ain't sayin' much, since we have had some real winners, but CAL really lost a good one with this guy...

DTW-ZRH is 4255 mi. I'm not an expert on the 752, but w/out winglets, can it make that trip? What about with winglets?

Fences dont stop them from moving aircraft around to other bases so a fence would be pointless in stopping the disruption. After all that was one of the "synergies" with the merger.

I think they'll be very effective at keeping relative status quo for their duration. They won't stop the company from gaining the synergies they've talked about. They'll just have to be more creative.

I think they'll be very effective at keeping relative status quo for their duration. They won't stop the company from gaining the synergies they've talked about. They'll just have to be more creative.

Yeah but a fence doesnt stop them from moving planes around to different bases. In fact a fence could keep you out of the base you wanted. For instance the rumors of the MD90s coming out of SLC and moving to MSP where performance isnt as much of an issue and replacing that lift with Airbuses. Now if you were SLC based and wanted to stay in SLC but your aircraft just switched out of base and you were locked out of the bus you would be SOL on SLC. Same goes with any aircraft and any base. We just dont know what their plans are yet so its tough to say. My point is a fence may not keep status quo because it prevents people from bidding in to specific aircraft but doesnt prevent DAL mgmt from moving planes to different bases. Its going to be interesting how it all plays out thats for sure.

DTW-ZRH is 4255 mi. I'm not an expert on the 752, but w/out winglets, can it make that trip? What about with winglets?

Sorry, my comment was of a more general nature WRT to Hauenstein's aircraft selection for a given route, not specific to the ZRH route... . I go to work on Friday, and I'll see if I can get any information on the range of the 757, but I think that is a bit far. With the winglets, it can get right on up high, and it sips gas, so who knows? I'll let ya know if I fond out anything useful.

I'm pretty sure that the longest route that CAL flies on the 752 is EWR-SXF (Berlin) at 3995 mi. I can see DTW-ZRH making it to the destination, but with headwinds on the way back, that would require a fuel stop pretty often. Any help would be useful. Thanks.

Yeah but a fence doesnt stop them from moving planes around to different bases. In fact a fence could keep you out of the base you wanted. For instance the rumors of the MD90s coming out of SLC and moving to MSP where performance isnt as much of an issue and replacing that lift with Airbuses. Now if you were SLC based and wanted to stay in SLC but your aircraft just switched out of base and you were locked out of the bus you would be SOL on SLC. Same goes with any aircraft and any base. We just dont know what their plans are yet so its tough to say. My point is a fence may not keep status quo because it prevents people from bidding in to specific aircraft but doesnt prevent DAL mgmt from moving planes to different bases. Its going to be interesting how it all plays out thats for sure.

Your scenario costs money for retraining, a cost they need to avoid over the short term but would probably be acceptable if spread out over a long period of time. I expect to see a lot of routes flown "backwards" Example NRT-ATL-NRT rather than ATL-NRT-ATL on a 747-400 and some routes with deadhead on the front and back of the trip (DTW-ATL Deadhead to fly Sao Paolo with a 747-400)

I'm pretty sure that the longest route that CAL flies on the 752 is EWR-SXF (Berlin) at 3995 mi. I can see DTW-ZRH making it to the destination, but with headwinds on the way back, that would require a fuel stop pretty often. Any help would be useful. Thanks.

Apparently DAL is currently flying the 757ER from CVG-AMS. I don't know the difference in mileage but it probably isn't to much further to go to DTW-ZRH. Only the 757ER with winglets can do it. Besides, our domestic birds aren't ETOPS so those planes are out. I'm still wondering if we are going to procure the EOS birds that are sitting out on the TOC ramp.

CVG-AMS is 4142 miles, so I stand corrected. Still a haul for a single aisle scrawny bird like the 757. I guess that's about the best way to make a profit, though. Thanks for the info!

For those who are interested, you can find great circle distances at Great Circle Mapper (http://gc.kls2.com)

Heyas,

FWIW, we just got word that this "list" didn't come from either company.

It's probably some fanwank from a.net or something.

Nu

I heard we're gonna put winglets on the DC9s, and start flying them to the west coast and Mexico.:D;)

When they do BOS AMS if they don't terminate it, will they do it as a DTW BOS AMS like NWA currently does? Or will they just do BOS AMS BOS, no DTW?

Delta is going to put winglets on the 767ER's. They have ordered 30 shipsets. The first were supposed to have been delivered in June however they ran into structural problems. The test aircraft which is a American 767 is now flying the certification flights and Delta hopes to have aircraft flying the line by Dec before the winter winds set in. The 757 flying AMS-CVG is very marginal. We often depart FRA-JFK with full fuel and that flight has diverted a couple of times.

FWIW here are some of the rumors on the NW side.

No moving of aircraft to new bases for at least one year post-DCC.

A LOT of Deadeading to cover flying as they transition different Aircraft types to better fill the markets.

A-330 training was previously going to be flat for the rest of the year. NATCO has now been told to do MAX effor training on the A-330. This really made no sense to me because of two reasons. 1)The A-330 sim will be down for 5 weeks for software and hardware upgrades. We had to purchase sim time in Manchester, England to cover existing training. 2) Our next APA,( AE for you DAL guys) is for December 2008. In any case, we have apparently told Manchester that we want all the sim time they have between now and the end of the year.

A-330 wil be doing South America and Western Europe. It may or may not be doing Sao Paolo in lieu of the 747-400. No word on whether it will continue to fly routes from Left Coast to Japan and then south of Tokyo.

A-330 currently only has one pilot bunk so if they want to fly it over 12 hours they will either need a CONCESSION from the MEC or a new pilot crew rest area.

747-400 will probably end up going to JFK and ATL. Typical pattern/rotation will be DTW-NRT-ATL-JFK-NRT-NRT or some combo similar. Throw in some MSP layovers, not sure if it will continue LAX and HNL.

Sprinkle in a lot of deadheads to and from JFK and ATL to finish the picture.

More later as I continue to snoop around my UNRELIABLE sources. ;)

My recollection of the fence agreement when DAL purchased various parts of Pan Am is that the fence applied to an aircraft and base category.

For example: The Shuttle operation was acquired from Pan Am. A Delta pilot could bid into that category, however, as it was acquired from Pan Am, in the event of a displacement he could be displaced by a more junior Pan Am pilot.

Establishing an Airbus category in SLC (same with the MD-90 in MSP) would be a "new" category, and thus the fence rules would not apply. Of course this assumes my memory is correct, and that fences would be structured the same way.

DAL hates with a passion the concept of having to pay pilots to deadhead. Though it's fairly common, and initially necessary to maximize fleet efficiency, I strongly suspect realignment of aircraft and domiciles to happen fairly soon.

The A330 will require two bunks to go over twelve hours. The FAA requires a horizontal rest facility and has a published advisory circular on what the minimum standards for that entails. The MEC's can't waive FAR's. With the amount of very long haul flying the combined airlines will be doing we need to pay special attention to rest facilities on aircraft. Bombay to ATL is 17:55 minutes. We will have more flying like that in the future.

The A330 will require two bunks to go over twelve hours. The FAA requires a horizontal rest facility and has a published advisory circular on what the minimum standards for that entails. The MEC's can't waive FAR's. With the amount of very long haul flying the combined airlines will be doing we need to pay special attention to rest facilities on aircraft. Bombay to ATL is 17:55 minutes. We will have more flying like that in the future.The A330 currently has two rest facilities. one by the pit with one bunk for the relief pilot (our contract doesn't require a seat in business, but there is a seat in the rest facility), and one for the cabin crew down below the floor near Doors 3L and 3R. The Concession I was referring to would be to put a pilot in the lower facility, which has multiple bunks.:eek: We fought against this very hard when we first ordered the A330 and I would fight against it again.

On this week's web chat with Ed Bastian, a Delta employee with the screen name of "Borat" wrote that he had heard NWA's 747's would now fly to Glorious Country of Kazakhstan. Ed actaully replied and confirmed that, no, Delta will not serve Kazakhstan with 747's.

So now we know that part of the puzzle.

Well thank God.