Airline Pilot Forums

This is only a test. :) I'm practicing my outrage.

:) Very nice!

This is only a test. :) I'm practicing my outrage.

I'm outraged that your outraged! :)

Ferd

I'm outraged that you're outraged that he's outraged! What are we talking about again?

What are we talking about again?

How the three of you were going to go take a drive and look at the leaves and sing Kumbaya for all of us.

Leaves sound good...........this holding pattern is killing me. Would somebody, anybody just get cleared direct?

One guy who was there yesterday said it was real boring, with no real fireworks. An exNWA VP for international (or something) explaining the Narita hub was interesting........

Reading the last sets of transcripts remined me of my jury duty days, just a debate contest between lawyers. No right or wrong, just win or lose.

All the leaves are brown.........
Ferd

I'm outraged that you're outraged that he's outraged! What are we talking about again?I thought it was more than fair. It protects my career expectations....I'm practicing my contentment.

I never really understood career expectations, especially in this industry. If you look at history, it has not been kind to the largest airlines in the world.

I never really understood career expectations, especially in this industry. If you look at history, it has not been kind to the largest airlines in the world.

so you are for a straight ratio like delta put out in the spring?

I thought it was more than fair. It protects my career expectations....I'm practicing my contentment.


My apologies - I didn't mean to offend anyone. Just trying to add a little humor to something over which none of us have any control...

I'll get back to my coloring now...:)

I never really understood career expectations, especially in this industry. If you look at history, it has not been kind to the largest airlines in the world.


you are right. The only thing that is certain is where you are today. That's why the Delta proposal is right in line. Everyone ends up on the list with people who occupy the same kind of seats.

All the leaves are brown.........
Ferd

California Dreamin'?

California Dreamin'?

More and more every day as the temp in MSP goes down........:D

You wont see the NWA proposed list unless it leaks from the NWA side. The Delta pilots will honor the agreement to keep list submissions confidential. It would be damaging to our case to have the list leak out from our side. You should only see the final product.

You wont see the NWA proposed list unless it leaks from the NWA side. The Delta pilots will honor the agreement to keep list submissions confidential. It would be damaging to our case to have the list leak out from our side. You should only see the final product.

How would it be damaging to your side? The DAL proposed list has been "out" for a while now. I think both sides list proposals should be seen by all so everyone will feel better about the final product once it can be compared to the other sides initial "proposal".

Super,
I think you'll find that the final product is a lot closer to the Delta proposal than the "Super Premium" Widebody, top 500 +DOH widely rumored to be NWA's proposal. JMHO. From the transcripts- Delta has almost twice the intl block hours than NWA wow!

Mark Coghlin
Delta guy

Super,
I think you'll find that the final product is a lot closer to the Delta proposal than the "Super Premium" Widebody, top 500 +DOH widely rumored to be NWA's proposal. JMHO. From the transcripts- Delta has almost twice the intl block hours than NWA wow!

Mark Coghlin
Delta guy

Who knows? Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. I am 100% confident though that your side will look at our "proposal" just as we see your "proposal". ;) That is to be expected. Again thats exactly why this is in arbitration. Both sides have their points of interest and both sides proposals will be viewed as the extremes. basic negotiating skills, start with extremes to better set the the middle grounds. we are all about to find out pretty soon how this will play out. After that hopefully we can all be on the same team fighting for the same things together ;)

Cog,

"Widely rumored"?

Hummmmmm, now there is a source!

OK, sorry for pulling your chain.......couldn't resist.

Ferd
NWA guy

Super,
I think you'll find that the final product is a lot closer to the Delta proposal than the "Super Premium" Widebody, top 500 +DOH widely rumored to be NWA's proposal. JMHO. From the transcripts- Delta has almost twice the intl block hours than NWA wow!

Mark Coghlin
Delta guy

After seeing you guys proposed seniority list, I can tell you that a lot of NWA guys want our side to present a list that has something like having the top 500 NWA guys on the list. Since your side went out of its way to make sure your list had EVERY NWA pilot junior to someone at Delta that was hired after him. Hell, make it a thousand. :rolleyes:

Super,
I appreciate the tone and civility but I really don't see how the Delta proposal is seen as extreme. Relative position with modifications for our aircraft orders and your possible aircraft parkings doesn't seem extreme. I have heard of NW guys figuring they stand to lose approx 1-4% on relative position under the Delta proposal and if you take most or all of that out in the final iteration after "negotiating", isn't retaining your current NW relative position at the new Delta fair and reasonable? Remember, because of our much higher % of widebody/intl flying than NWA, your retained relative position at Delta will be much more valuable, not to mention the payraises. I just can't understand how this could be viewed as extreme and totally unreasonable.

Mark

Delta

After seeing you guys proposed seniority list, I can tell you that a lot of NWA guys want our side to present a list that has something like having the top 500 NWA guys on the list. Since your side went out of its way to make sure your list had EVERY NWA pilot junior to someone at Delta that was hired after him. Hell, make it a thousand. :rolleyes:

For some reason that isnt seen as a windfall yet our rumored proposal is? Its funny that they see their list as "fair" and what we are rumored to want is an extreme. We'll see how extreme ours is tomorrow i guess but I agree their proposal was just as extreme as it can get as far as the NWA pilots are concerned. ALL DAL pilots got an increase in overall seniority while ALL NWA pilots got an decrease in overall seniority on top of 10% of the list stapled and thats considered "fair"?:cool:

DAL went for the gold for their pilot group and i am sure our side will do the same thing, especially now. Hopefully no gold medals will be given out though and we all will have to settle for silver.

Super,
I appreciate the tone and civility but I really don't see how the Delta proposal is seen as extreme. Relative position with modifications for our aircraft orders and your possible aircraft parkings doesn't seem extreme. I have heard of NW guys figuring they stand to lose approx 1-4% on relative position under the Delta proposal and if you take most or all of that out in the final iteration after "negotiating", isn't retaining your current NW relative position at the new Delta fair and reasonable? Remember, because of our much higher % of widebody/intl flying than NWA, your retained relative position at Delta will be much more valuable, not to mention the payraises. I just can't understand how this could be viewed as extreme and totally unreasonable.

Mark

Delta

No problem, and i will try and get a few points across here. If you look at what you and everyone else at DAL is saying, you guys try and portray NWA as a dieing breed and we have nothing to look forward to in career expectations. While you all at DAL have nothing but good times and growth ahead of you. Its not very hard to see that mentality expressed by the Dal team. The truth is NWA is doing better than most and our earnings report will be out tomorrow and from what our side put out yesterday it should look good. We are a profitable airline and consistently make as much if not more money than DAL even though we are 2/3's the size. Also the avg age of the entire NWA pilot list is around 54 years old! Based on numbers alone, not counting growth or status quo, i was set to be over 55% up the list in the next 10-12 years. SO in that period of time i would be a lot higher up the list at that point than a DAL pilot hired around the same time i was. That DAL guy may be on a widebody FO seat now but thats where he will sit for a long time. We have a "crystal ball" or seniority forecaster on the alpa website that shows where you are scheduled to be and when. Mine showed me being 45% on the list in 10-12 years. I was set to be in roughly the top 1/3 of the list for the last 25 years of my career retiring at number 3. A DAL newhire around my hire date isnt looking at that. Not that this is about ME but those are the things that i have personally looked at. Every stage of the NWA list would get reamed with the DAL proposed list so yes it is considered an extreme from our side of the fence. I am young enough to end up fine either way but the majority of the NWA list isnt.

Anyway, point being that both sides have their strong and weak points but the image you DAL guys try and put out about NWA doesnt show the whole picture it only shows what you guys want to point out. Bottom line is both carriers had strong outlooks premerger and we all should have strong outlooks post merger. I hope it turns out that way because i am here for the longhaul regardless.

In the end i think this will be great for everyone but anyone who thinks they should be better off than someone else on the other side as a result of this merger is wrong IMHO. All of these points i am sure will be brought up in the arbitration meetings but when the decision comes out i am sure we will all find a way to deal with it and move on.

For some reason that isnt seen as a windfall yet our rumored proposal is? Its funny that they see their list as "fair" and what we are rumored to want is an extreme. We'll see how extreme ours is tomorrow i guess but I agree their proposal was just as extreme as it can get as far as the NWA pilots are concerned. ALL DAL pilots got an increase in overall seniority while ALL NWA pilots got an decrease in overall seniority on top of 10% of the list stapled and thats considered "fair"?:cool:

DAL went for the gold for their pilot group and i am sure our side will do the same thing, especially now. Hopefully no gold medals will be given out though and we all will have to settle for silver.

Gold and Silver, wish I had both. It stores and spends well when there is an economic melt down. Too bad this SLI had to go to arbitration. Nobody wins.

For some reason that isnt seen as a windfall yet our rumored proposal is? Its funny that they see their list as "fair" and what we are rumored to want is an extreme. We'll see how extreme ours is tomorrow i guess but I agree their proposal was just as extreme as it can get as far as the NWA pilots are concerned. ALL DAL pilots got an increase in overall seniority while ALL NWA pilots got an decrease in overall seniority on top of 10% of the list stapled and thats considered "fair"?:cool:

DAL went for the gold for their pilot group and i am sure our side will do the same thing, especially now. Hopefully no gold medals will be given out though and we all will have to settle for silver.
What is "overall seniority" when you are going to a NEW airline? It doesn't really matter what your DOH at NWA is, that airline is/will be gone. What matters, imho, is relative position, and I think our proposal, in its final iteration, will protect relative position within a few % points. Remember your relative % at NWA, when put at the new Delta, will be more "valuable" in our heavy intl/widebody fleet. I think you guys just need to get over the NW date of hire, that is gone

Mark

Delta

What is "overall seniority" when you are going to a NEW airline? It doesn't really matter what your DOH at NWA is, that airline is/will be gone. What matters, imho, is relative position, and I think our proposal, in its final iteration, will protect relative position within a few % points. Remember your relative % at NWA, when put at the new Delta, will be more "valuable" in our heavy intl/widebody fleet. I think you guys just need to get over the NW date of hire, that is gone

Mark

Delta

Your side didnt do relative position though where it was "fair" to everyone. To solve alot of problems they could have ratioed all pre-911 hires and did DOH for everyone post 9-11 and i think that would have gone over better for the majority. I realize the first post 9/11 hires would have probably not liked it but anyone who thinks that someone hired almost 10 years before should be junior to a "newhire" has an inflated reality. I can honestly say if i was a DAL newhire i wouldnt think that a guy hired at NWA 10 years before me should go behind me, but thats just me.

Now your side said that everyone is around the same % which is not accurate. If it was more realistic than i wouldnt completely disagree with you. The FACTS are that EVERY NWA pilot took a hit in seniority (1%-6% Negative) EVERY DAL pilot got a bump in seniority (1%-6% Positive). Also Stapling the bottom 10% of the NWA list behind the LAST DAL newhire hired less than 6 months ago doesnt fall anywhere near relative %. So you can see where the problem comes in. Maybe DOH wouldnt be the "proposal" from the NWA side if something not so lopsided was established. I dont know and honestly none of us know. Maybe we will get a negotiated list between now and next month with something more level. Who knows. But to say your sides proposal was "fair" and we should just get over it isnt going to fly and is exactly why its in arbitration. The other thing is the DAL proposal will be top heavy on DAL pilots in the next 10-15 years because of the NWA retirements coming up which hoses the majority of our guys out of our retirement numbers.

Final note, i dont know how you figure that my relative % would be more valuable at DAL than at NWA because i feel my position and career at NWA is just as valuable, to me. I think the mentality that causes problems is when the DAL side acts as though you are coming in to save us and we should just get over it. This isnt like other mergers where one airline is failing and the other is coming in to save the day. We are in this together and both companies are strong airlines with long histories. Lets hope we continue that streak after this mess is all said and done. Cheers :)

No problem, and i will try and get a few points across here....

Super,

That was a great post. It will fall on deaf ears.

Edit: They were two great posts. Same result.

newKnow and Superpilot92
We get the message...loud and clear...Super, you've done a wonderful job getting your message out, but honestly, let's get the final list officially published...then we can all hopefully be pi$&ing and moaning about how we got screwed in the merger.

You are right about one thing too...we were and are two solvent, money making (some of the times) strong carriers with strengths that will hopefully magnify once joined.

Safe flying yall.

To Super and Know,
Thank you for your posts. They are very informative and have not fallen on deaf ears.

When all this is said and done and we have one list I hope that both sides can get over their respective Kool Aid hangover's as quickly as possible. Both positions from the repsective MEC's Negotiation Committee's are viewed as highly offensive by the other. I really got a big kick out of the "Super Premium Wide Body Flying" moniker. That was funny.

At the same time I can see why a pilot at NWA that was hired in '00 to '01 would be highly torqued about the DAL proposal. I mean after enduring being displaced from several aircraft, furlough, rate cuts, frozen pension, and the pleasure of coming back to work under new work rules, you think things are changing. Then your company merges and you now are going to be junior (proposed) to a DAL pilot that either flew in the military during all this airline post 9-11 crap or the pilot flew for the bowels of the airlines industry: The fee for departure airlines aka regional airline. I can see why you would be ****ed off.


Enough of this speculation from both sides on what we really want is getting old. Lets just everyone step away from the punch bowl and see what happens. I think that in the end this whole thing will be better and exciting for all of us in this screwed up industry.

Cheers.

you are right. The only thing that is certain is where you are today. That's why the Delta proposal is right in line. Everyone ends up on the list with people who occupy the same kind of seats.

Rumor on the street is that the new Delta APA is going to consider the shifting of ER flying to some of NWAs bases. Since that flying will need to come from other bases, some will probably be from the JFK base which bids junior and go to Seattle which bids/will bid senior. That being said, the new hires will lose their International widebody flying and probably end up in an 88, just like our new hires who are in DC9s(same type).

Boil it all down and it shows there should not be a 500 pilot staple job.

My apologies - I didn't mean to offend anyone. Just trying to add a little humor to something over which none of us have any control...

I'll get back to my coloring now...:)I wasn't offended at all. I was trying to reply "tongue in cheek" and add some humor as well. (Guess that didn't work very well.) Both sides see their cause as fair, the other as extreme and these threads aren't going to change that perception. I'm hoping for something in the middle and to finally get it all behind us. Cheers!:)

Rumor on the street is that the new Delta APA is going to consider the shifting of ER flying to some of NWAs bases. Since that flying will need to come from other bases, some will probably be from the JFK base which bids junior and go to Seattle which bids/will bid senior. That being said, the new hires will lose their International widebody flying and probably end up in an 88, just like our new hires who are in DC9s(same type).

Boil it all down and it shows there should not be a 500 pilot staple job.

It will be more interesting to see what happens when DL moves the 747 to ATL and all the more senior greenbook guys displace the junior redbook guys. Think we can get another grievence out of it?

Rumor on the street is that the new Delta APA is going to consider the shifting of ER flying to some of NWAs bases. Since that flying will need to come from other bases, some will probably be from the JFK base which bids junior and go to Seattle which bids/will bid senior. That being said, the new hires will lose their International widebody flying and probably end up in an 88, just like our new hires who are in DC9s(same type).

Boil it all down and it shows there should not be a 500 pilot staple job.

More likely you'll see the current international categories deadheading a lot at least initially. If the company thinks they can start a wholesale movement of aircraft around the system without a bunch of very, very ****ed off employees they are sorely mistaken. I'm nowhere near a new hire and I have no desire to do 6 more weeks in mecca or commute. Here's hoping these masters of the 2 profitable quarters in the last 7 years take the slow wait and see approach instead of completely screwing with the status quo. Looks like I may be out of the running for Chief Pilot of Chief Pilot's butt boy.

[quote=Superpilot92;483359] NWA pilot list is around 54 years old! Based on numbers alone, not counting growth or status quo, i was set to be over 55% up the list in the next 10-12 years. SO in that period of time i would be a lot higher up the list at that point than a DAL pilot hired around the same time i was. That DAL guy may be on a widebody FO seat now but thats where he will sit for a long time. We have a "crystal ball" or seniority forecaster on the alpa website that shows where you are scheduled to be and when. Mine showed me being 45% on the list in 10-12 years. I was set to be in roughly the top 1/3 of the list for the last 25 years of my career retiring at number 3. A DAL newhire around my hire date isnt looking at that. Not that this is about ME but those are the things that i have personally looked at. Every stage of the NWA list would get reamed with the DAL proposed list so yes it is considered an extreme from our side of the fence. I am young enough to end up fine either way but the majority of the NWA list isnt. quote]

Super, yes a young DAL newhire (2007) is looking at your seniority #'s, just set back by a couple of years. By 2025 they would be looking at being 38%, by 2030 at 16%, by 2035 at .3% etc. So you get your retirements "earlier" we get them a bit "later". RELATIVELY it's pretty much the same...

newKnow and Superpilot92
We get the message...loud and clear...Super, you've done a wonderful job getting your message out, but honestly, let's get the final list officially published...then we can all hopefully be pi$&ing and moaning about how we got screwed in the merger.

You are right about one thing too...we were and are two solvent, money making (some of the times) strong carriers with strengths that will hopefully magnify once joined.

Safe flying yall.

To Super and Know,
Thank you for your posts. They are very informative and have not fallen on deaf ears.

When all this is said and done and we have one list I hope that both sides can get over their respective Kool Aid hangover's as quickly as possible. ....Cheers.

Vark & Selcall,

Thanks for listening. I look forward to flying with you guys. Sellcall checks ok. :)


New K Now

How would it be damaging to your side? The DAL proposed list has been "out" for a while now. I think both sides list proposals should be seen by all so everyone will feel better about the final product once it can be compared to the other sides initial "proposal".

The list that was leaked contained confidential personal data. It was never intended for public dissemination. Both sides had agreed to that. The concept of how the list was structured was not a issue to put out. Someone leaked the entire list one day after it was given in electronic form to NWA. There may be more that comes out from this. The person who leaked it should be concerned. I know some pilots have even talked of a law suit.

Sailing,

I'd have to go back and look, but I think ACL said that it had also been on the DALPA site too?

Not trying to start a fight, I see your concerns.

Ferd

Super, yes a young DAL newhire (2007) is looking at your seniority #'s, just set back by a couple of years. By 2025 they would be looking at being 38%, by 2030 at 16%, by 2035 at .3% etc. So you get your retirements "earlier" we get them a bit "later". RELATIVELY it's pretty much the same...
I don't argue that one bit but I think we can all agree that the sooner you move up the list the better. Therefore a newguy at Nwa would move up quicker. That was my point.

In the long run it will all work out I am sure.

Sailing,

I'd have to go back and look, but I think ACL said that it had also been on the DALPA site too?

Not trying to start a fight, I see your concerns.

Ferd

Not trying to stoke the flames but I believe it was posted on your MEC forum and the National forum. Someone copied it from the National forum onto the DALPA forum and shortly after it vaporized. There were calls from guys on our site for the DALPA MEC to post your proposed list as retribution (although it wouldn't be that hard to figure out a DOH list). So far, no joy.

Could be, I didn't see the list till a couple of days later. Gotta love the drama of eh?

What is "overall seniority" when you are going to a NEW airline? It doesn't really matter what your DOH at NWA is, that airline is/will be gone. What matters, imho, is relative position, and I think our proposal, in its final iteration, will protect relative position within a few % points. Remember your relative % at NWA, when put at the new Delta, will be more "valuable" in our heavy intl/widebody fleet. I think you guys just need to get over the NW date of hire, that is gone

Mark

Delta

You obviously don't know much about arbitration - do you? ;)

Carl

It will be more interesting to see what happens when DL moves the 747 to ATL and all the more senior greenbook guys displace the junior redbook guys. Think we can get another grievence out of it?

No grievance could come of it. That is exactly what will happen with a base change on the 747-400. Almost every single Captain will be displaced. End of story.

Carl

What is "overall seniority" when you are going to a NEW airline? It doesn't really matter what your DOH at NWA is, that airline is/will be gone. What matters, imho, is relative position, and I think our proposal, in its final iteration, will protect relative position within a few % points. Remember your relative % at NWA, when put at the new Delta, will be more "valuable" in our heavy intl/widebody fleet. I think you guys just need to get over the NW date of hire, that is gone

Mark

Delta

Will the opposite be true as well? Less "vaulable" in the domestic market for those that don't get all excited about international flying?

Will the opposite be true as well? Less "vaulable" in the domestic market for those that don't get all excited about international flying?Ahh... No

Delta guy

Ahh... No

Delta guy

maybe I'm taking what you are saying the wrong way but explain why it wouldn't be.

pilot

maybe I'm taking what you are saying the wrong way but explain why it wouldn't be.

pilot
I'll take a shot: as of the end of 2008, "domestic" fleets compared---DAL- 21 767-300 (not ER), 137 757s, 75 737-800/700, 118 MD-88s, 16MD-90s...total=367 aircraft (more, I believe, than the entire NW fleet)----NW domestic fleet--61 757s, 120(or so) A319/320s, 58 DC-9s... total=239. Ratio of DAL to NW pilots= approx. 7300/5300=1.37. Ratio of DAL domestic aircraft to NW (dom.) aircraft= 367/239= 1.53, therefore, NW pilots get the better deal, (higher gauge aircraft, higher pay and more aircraft brought by DAL, relative to # of pilots) DAL pilots correspondingly, get the worse deal. (lower gauge aircraft, lower pay, fewer aircraft brought by NW, relative to # of pilots)

No grievance could come of it. That is exactly what will happen with a base change on the 747-400. Almost every single Captain will be displaced. End of story.

Carl

Hi Carl,

Unless there is a "plug'n'chug" LOA.

It's something you make the company pay dearly for, but the DAL proposal gives it away for free.

Nu

No grievance could come of it. That is exactly what will happen with a base change on the 747-400. Almost every single Captain will be displaced. End of story.

CarlHi Carl,

Unless there is a "plug'n'chug" LOA.

It's something you make the company pay dearly for, but the DAL proposal gives it away for free.

Nu

What are you talking about? Are you saying that if 767ER time moves from NYC to SEA, for example, that the NYC 767ER F/O's currently flying it should have super seniority for bidding purposes, over everyone else?

If so, I think that's crazy, and I'm glad "the DAL proposal gives it away for free". If I misunderstand your point, I apologize in advance.

PG

What are you talking about? Are you saying that if 767ER time moves from NYC to SEA, for example, that the NYC 767ER F/O's currently flying it should have super seniority for bidding purposes, over everyone else?

If so, I think that's crazy, and I'm glad "the DAL proposal gives it away for free". If I misunderstand your point, I apologize in advance.

PG

PG,

That is exactly what I'm saying. Say DAL wants to move all the CVG 767s to SEA, wholesale.

ALPA cuts a deal that allows the company to move the entire CVG 767 base to SEA without a re-bid. Saves the company a ton in training and administrative expenses.

With that said, and whether you think it's cool or not, it saved the company a pile of money AND aborgates seniority/contract in the process.

It's worth something to the company, and you extract contract gains for them to do so. Not to do so is stupid.

Nu

----------

PG,

That is exactly what I'm saying. Say DAL wants to move all the CVG 767s to SEA, wholesale.

ALPA cuts a deal that allows the company to move the entire CVG 767 base to SEA without a re-bid. Saves the company a ton in training and administrative expenses.

With that said, and whether you think it's cool or not, it saved the company a pile of money AND aborgates seniority/contract in the process.

It's worth something to the company, and you extract contract gains for them to do so. Not to do so is stupid.

Nu

Seems to me, what you're really doing is screwing the guys who want to bid it (and can hold it), so as to benefit the guys already on it (who apparently won't be able to)... If I had to guess, this is a holdover from the red book / green book days, thereby keeping the green book guys "in their place" now that the fences are down.

To do that, is stupid. No thanks.

PG

Not sure if all of the CVG guys would want that commute.
I think that the union would be in the middle of fire fight if they did that.

Not sure if all of the CVG guys would want that commute.
I think that the union would be in the middle of fire fight if they did that.

It will be a really tough call for the company on this issue. In the past, NWA did this to keep an entire re-bid of the 747-400 and the huge cost involved in the cascading displacements and training. We last did this when the fences were still up, so it was a question of keeping both Red and Green "in their places."

With the amount of aircraft/base movement required for the new Delta to really reap the synergy gains, I think some quid pro quo contract relief might be a very good thing. Otherwise, I can't even imagine how high the training costs would be.

Carl

It will be a really tough call for the company on this issue. In the past, NWA did this to keep an entire re-bid of the 747-400 and the huge cost involved in the cascading displacements and training. We last did this when the fences were still up, so it was a question of keeping both Red and Green "in their places."

With the amount of aircraft/base movement required for the new Delta to really reap the synergy gains, I think some quid pro quo contract relief might be a very good thing. Otherwise, I can't even imagine how high the training costs would be.

Carl

If by quid pro quo you mean seat/pay protection... maybe.. other than that, the companies have taken enough from us to last a lifetime. We have ALL given enough, and the time to start Takin' it back is now...

They would at a min have to buy everyone's current houses and pay every stinking expense that I can think of.

I'm not saying DAL will do the same thing, but when NWA did this, the quid pro quo was some significant contract improvement (I don't remember what they were anymore).

They didn't need to buy anyone's house because the moves to the new base were voluntary. If you wanted to stay in base, you could. You just had first right to go out to the new base and new flying if that's what you desired.

Carl

It will be a really tough call for the company on this issue. In the past, NWA did this to keep an entire re-bid of the 747-400 and the huge cost involved in the cascading displacements and training. We last did this when the fences were still up, so it was a question of keeping both Red and Green "in their places."

With the amount of aircraft/base movement required for the new Delta to really reap the synergy gains, I think some quid pro quo contract relief might be a very good thing. Otherwise, I can't even imagine how high the training costs would be.

Carl

Spoken like a true red book 747-400 Captain.

Why am I NOT surprised?

Most of DAL's guys live in base. NYC is the exception. At least 80% of the guys that I have flown with live in ATL, LAX, SLC or CVG. Most do not want to move if possible.

................

It will be a really tough call for the company on this issue. In the past, NWA did this to keep an entire re-bid of the 747-400 and the huge cost involved in the cascading displacements and training. We last did this when the fences were still up, so it was a question of keeping both Red and Green "in their places."

Carl

Um, no. In the past ALPA did this because we received X amount of dollars credit for this CONCESSION. It was done during the first bankruptcy crisis in 1993 (a fake threat IMO). We also gave up double captain staffing on augmented flights in that negotiation AGAINST THE IMPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS OF THE MEC. We had to buy that one back later with an extension of the pay cuts. The company would have retrained everyone necessary if we had not given them the Base Move without rebid and we would have had to come up with another concession to match the $$$.

So what does everyone think of NWA's proposed list? Looks like straight DOH to me as far as I can tell with a quick overview. Correct me if I'm wrong.

More and more every day as the temp in MSP goes down........:D

No, stay away!! You'll hate it!:D