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View Full Version : Unifying the Profession


Beechlover
11-13-2008, 02:27 PM
Something struck me as odd about they way we (as pilot groups) working for our individual airlines, sometimes seem to be at odds with each other.., ie pilots of other airlines. Here's the thing I'm seeing..., managment at airline X makes a contract with Airline Y. Airline X is a "mainline (Legacy payscale) Airline. Airline Y is a (Regional payscale) airline. X's pilots are angry because the contract is a threat to their flying/job security/scope.., Whipsaw you name it (pick a reason.., any reason. In many instances, I see pilots of not only airline X but many others criticise the pilot group of airline Y when THEY have ZERO (ZERO), I'll say it again.., ZEEROO control over what contracts or agreements their mangements enter into.

Folks I'm just making an observation.., of course this is just my soda straw perspective of the universe and my opinion doesn't count.

Just seems like we as a US pilot group spend and inordinate amount of time jumping on each other when we should be trying to strengthen this profession. What's it gonna take, I mean really.

I Retired from the Air Force after doing my 20, got my ratings and now I'm knee deep in the regional hooplah. So just a regular guy living the dream.., or trying to anyway. We all gotta start somewhere right?


Tinpusher007
11-14-2008, 04:17 PM
What you have to remember is that we at airline Y are doing everyone else including ourselves a disservice by not refusing our employment at airline Y in order for the pilots at airline X to make things better for us all.:D

In all seriousness, all airline employees do the same job, just for different companies. Those companies while having a professional respect for one another (to an extent) are fiercely competitive. Almost everything about our industry is a numbers game. And that drives the competition. The same is true of the pilot groups of said airlines largely because our livelihood (read, seniority...numbers) are tied to it. And this is what makes it personal, eventhough it really shouldn't be.

Im happy to report however that the mainline guys of my company's parent have been nothing short of professional, friendly and more than accomodating when I ask for a ride home or to work...each and every one of them without exception.

Beechlover
11-15-2008, 05:03 AM
I've had similiarly good experiences with several other mainline and regional crews. I love my job and the folks I work with have been great. Like you said, I think most understand the business and how things work. Being the "new guy" with the proverbial fresh pair of eyes, I can't help but have the knee jerk reaction of, hey can't we fix this? (profession)

Of course I realize the 'fixing' part is never easy, neat, or clean. Especially where airline management, unionization and individual (airline specific)seniority lists are concerned.


madman moe
11-15-2008, 06:44 AM
I have never, ever, EVER had any pilot--regional, mainline, or otherwise--give me any sort of guff for where I work (Chautauqua). It's just that the keyboard warriors here that are "changing the world" one whiny post at a time are an extremely vocal and annoying minority. Common sense would dictate that if there were ANY group of people that would understand how pilots factor in to the decisions their respective airlines make (as in not at all ever) it would be pilots. Curiously, this is not the case.

I'm all for unifying the profession but it will never happen as long as we have idiots swinging their "egos" around because X airline called them back for an interview before Y airline. Seriously, the week after I accepted a class date with CHQ I got calls from no less than five others at which I could just as easily have found myself--and I'm sure a large percentage of people are in the same boat, so what the crap are we all arguing about?

GW258
11-15-2008, 11:36 AM
Something struck me as odd about they way we (as pilot groups) working for our individual airlines, sometimes seem to be at odds with each other.., ie pilots of other airlines. Here's the thing I'm seeing..., managment at airline X makes a contract with Airline Y. Airline X is a "mainline (Legacy payscale) Airline. Airline Y is a (Regional payscale) airline. X's pilots are angry because the contract is a threat to their flying/job security/scope.., Whipsaw you name it (pick a reason.., any reason. In many instances, I see pilots of not only airline X but many others criticise the pilot group of airline Y when THEY have ZERO (ZERO), I'll say it again.., ZEEROO control over what contracts or agreements their mangements enter into.

Folks I'm just making an observation.., of course this is just my soda straw perspective of the universe and my opinion doesn't count.

Just seems like we as a US pilot group spend and inordinate amount of time jumping on each other when we should be trying to strengthen this profession. What's it gonna take, I mean really.

I Retired from the Air Force after doing my 20, got my ratings and now I'm knee deep in the regional hooplah. So just a regular guy living the dream.., or trying to anyway. We all gotta start somewhere right?


DOH, National List, One Union.

Beechlover
11-15-2008, 02:27 PM
DOH, National List, One Union.


A voice of sanity! Thankyou.., I whole heartedly agree! I know the devil is in the painful details and even more painful to orchestrate. To hear someone else say it.., I'd buy you a beer if we were at a bar LOL!.

You know the hardest part, would be (I think) getting everybody to agree to what the "National List" criteria would be. Who qualifies to be on the "list" and who doesn't. Initial DOH at a part 121/135 carrier? Actually maybe the hardest part would be to have any agreement that a (single) National Seniority List could be of any benefit to us at all.

The next BIG issue would be getting the airlines/carriers to abide by it, where payscales are involved. The benefit of creating a national seniority list would primarily to protect pay and recognize experience as it should. But this would have a definate impact on their labor costs. I'm sure there are many aspects of this idea that I'm missing so please forgive my ignorance. Also I'm trying to be brief so I'm sure I'm leaving out stuff that could make the point a little stronger.

utedrummer
11-15-2008, 09:07 PM
I would love to see and would entirely support and be a member of ONE NATIONAL PILOT LIST and UNION, I would even go so far as to say I would like to see one pilot union do all the employment, basically hire all the pilots and then "lease" them out to companies, but thats a little extreme, so I will settle for a national list/union.

CaptainCarl
11-15-2008, 09:17 PM
Best thread I have seen on the National Seniority List:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/union-talk/6634-national-seniority-list.html

Read it. Find a way to implement it.

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 06:48 AM
How about NO! Better yet, just nationalize (socialize) the seniority list of the regional carriers. That way, it will give guys even more incentive to stay at the lower level of this profession and not move up. (SARCASM)

NO FLAME BAIT, just here it out. This would be better for all in the long run.

The demise of this profession rest with the regional pilot. The guy who is willing to accept 60-70K as a CAREER regional captain for doing what he should be paid a heck of a lot more for.

I once asked a buddy of mine (RJ CA), shortly after I was hired, if he was thinking about stepping up to the majors while hiring was HOT. His response was that he didn't want to start over for less pay and he was comfortable with his current position and salary as a career.

The best way to bring this profession back to where it should be, is to cap the maximum regional pay to that of the lowest FO pay of the majors. That will kill the incentive to stay at the lower end of the spectrum.

This will create more turn-over at the regional level and make it less profitable for the smaller airlines. Cap the regional carriers to short haul flights with smaller aircraft and make them truly commuter airlines.

Bring anything over 70 seats to the mainline carriers, creating more hiring in the upper spectrum.

The CA of a 70+ seat MAINLINE RJ, should be paid more than the highest paid 747 FO.

You want to restore this profession, stop considering a job as a regional RJ CA a career expectation. The regionals used to be considered a stepping stone, not a final stop. As long as WE are willing to accept the current system, nothing is going to change.

Mainline pilots need to take back scope, and regional pilots need to strive to keep climbing the ladder. Best way to help that is to lower the maximum pay at the regionals, and bring anything over 70 seats back to mainline at mainline wages!

Now stop this national seniority stuff. I work for a SPECIFIC airline, not ALPA.

Tinpusher007
11-16-2008, 06:55 AM
Rhino...the problem with that is that if we go through tough economic times which we can't seem to escape lately, there won't be any hiring at the majors. And everything at the regionals will be stagnant with even lower paying jobs according to your logic. Today there aren't too many regionals that cap capt pay at 60-70K. It more like 100 for those with descent contracts. The problem with regionals isn't really at the top end with the capt pay. Its the low end F/O pay that starts at 20K and very often caps at 40K or so.

Ziggy
11-16-2008, 07:07 AM
So many things have happened to put this profession in it's downward spiral. And there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. But since the unions are not pretty much not allowed to strike, slow down, or sick out. We've pretty much had our legs chopped off at the knees.

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 07:29 AM
Rhino...the problem with that is that if we go through tough economic times which we can't seem to escape lately, there won't be any hiring at the majors. And everything at the regionals will be stagnant with even lower paying jobs according to your logic. Today there aren't too many regionals that cap capt pay at 60-70K. It more like 100 for those with descent contracts. The problem with regionals isn't really at the top end with the capt pay. Its the low end F/O pay that starts at 20K and very often caps at 40K or so.

Ah, but that is the problem. It should have never gotten that high. What about the guy who crosses the line during a strike and takes that job for LESS because of tough economic times??? And no, I'm not implying anything.

We're not going to solve this problem here, but a national seniority list is by no means the answer.

When I was commissioned in the USN (1997), I was flying airplanes for 24k per year. Not much either, I remember, as I too had gone through civilian flight training and paid my way through college, but I always wanted to fly for the airlines and the military was going to be my 12 year stepping stone. Where's my national seniority number come in???

I also work for an airline, like you. I would by no means ever wish anyone harm in their profession. BUT, I do want my airline to be the best. I want my airline to make more money than yours. I want my airlines stock to do better than yours. It's just business. If I lose my job because my management stinks, should I be able to come to your house and still reap the benefits earned at my former employer over you?

And what about the fact that "the airlines" really isn't just "the airlines" anymore. There are many levels as you know. I don't really think that your union and mine should be the same entity. How can a union fight for more pay, bigger airplanes, better working conditions, etc, for you, without negatively impacting me.

As I said before, I think the real problem lies with the fact that it's ON THE VERGE of being too good to leave a regional in this day and age. Should have never gotten this good at that level. Now you want to make it better!

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 07:38 AM
How about asking the 6 figure salaried CA's to take a pay cut to help offset the 20K per year FO. Now that's an issue that should be handled in-house! Don't bring down mine to bring up yours. Starting to sound like "JOE THE PLUMBER!"

Ziggy
11-16-2008, 07:48 AM
RHINO I don't see how making pay, benefits, and QOL better at the regionals inhibits your chances to the legacies. If pilots who have attained these things at the regionals wish to stay, That's one less pilot to compete with.
Unfortunately you can't put the ****** back in the horse. You can only look ahead with the lessons you've learned from the past.

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 08:06 AM
RHINO I don't see how making pay, benefits, and QOL better at the regionals inhibits your chances to the legacies. If pilots who have attained these things at the regionals wish to stay, That's one less pilot to compete with.
Unfortunately you can't put the ****** back in the horse. You can only look ahead with the lessons you've learned from the past.

BECAUSE...If you keep making life at the regionals better, what is YOUR incentive to move on??? If the regionals keep getting better contracts with better pay, benefits, bigger airplanes, you get the picture, IT BRINGS DOWN THE PROFESSION AS A WHOLE. You're willingness to fly an RJ900, as an example, from JFK to TPA, as a regional guy for regional pay, brings down the industry a couple of notches. A flight of that length and from a market such as that should only be flown by a mainline aircraft and crew.

Eventually, you become ANOTHER major carrier because WE'VE allowed you to do it for less. There's already too much capacity out there and we don't need to keep increasing it further.

It's already coming to fruition. Look at the drawdown of the regionals with the 50 seaters going away. Now we must draw the line and not allow scope to get away again. It's time we man-up and start taking it back to the mainlines!

Again, the regionals should be viewed BY ALL as a stepping stone, not a career position that one strives to attain!

Tinpusher007
11-16-2008, 08:20 AM
BECAUSE...If you keep making life at the regionals better, what is YOUR incentive to move on??? If the regionals keep getting better contracts with better pay, benefits, bigger airplanes, you get the picture, IT BRINGS DOWN THE PROFESSION AS A WHOLE. You're willingness to fly an RJ900, as an example, from JFK to TPA, as a regional guy for regional pay, brings down the industry a couple of notches. A flight of that length and from a market such as that should only be flown by a mainline aircraft and crew.

Eventually, you become ANOTHER major carrier because WE'VE allowed you to do it for less. There's already too much capacity out there and we don't need to keep increasing it further.

It's already coming to fruition. Look at the drawdown of the regionals with the 50 seaters going away. Now we must draw the line and not allow scope to get away again. It's time we man-up and start taking it back to the mainlines!

Again, the regionals should be viewed BY ALL as a stepping stone, not a career position that one strives to attain!

I do see where you are coming from. But you have to remember that everyone's situation is different. Im 29 single and looking at an upgrade at the beginning of the year. I have 35 more years of 121 flying available to me. Take a guy who is older than me but has a wife and 2 kids to feed. He may enjoy the stability of a good sked and money more than risking being at the bottom of a major's list and taking a pay cut.

Plus, by your logic, if things become "too good" at the regionals that would mean less would leave and go to the majors...even when they are hirirng. That doesn't preclude guys with less seniority from moving on. Believe me, when those floodgates open again, people will RUN, not walk to the majors. Comfort at the regionals for the senior guys is not whats keeping the major from hiring. Guys are not going to quit the regionals to force them into a staffing problem so that the majors will say "the hell with RJ's, we need more mainline lift". I understand your theory but I think you know it just doesn't work that way. And its a flawed argument in blaming regional pilots for this.

Lastly, the company decides what kind of plane gets flown where. If they can't make money on a 737 and feel they need a CRJ-900 thats not the fault of the pilot(s) flying it. Its simply what the market demands. If the 900 wasn't available, they might pull out of the market altogether. With the economy the way it is and the cost of fuel as volatile as it is, I don't think its a forgone conclusion that if 90% of RJ's were suddenly gone tomorrow that there would be an automatic influx of 737's and A319's replacing all of that lift.

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 08:47 AM
I do see where you are coming from. But you have to remember that everyone's situation is different. Im 29 single and looking at an upgrade at the beginning of the year. I have 35 more years of 121 flying available to me. Take a guy who is older than me but has a wife and 2 kids to feed. He may enjoy the stability of a good sked and money more than risking being at the bottom of a major's list and taking a pay cut.

Plus, by your logic, if things become "too good" at the regionals that would mean less would leave and go to the majors...even when they are hirirng. That doesn't preclude guys with less seniority from moving on. Believe me, when those floodgates open again, people will RUN, not walk to the majors. Comfort at the regionals for the senior guys is not whats keeping the major from hiring. Guys are not going to quit the regionals to force them into a staffing problem so that the majors will say "the hell with RJ's, we need more mainline lift". I understand your theory but I think you know it just doesn't work that way. And its a flawed argument in blaming regional pilots for this.

Lastly, the company decides what kind of plane gets flown where. If they can't make money on a 737 and feel they need a CRJ-900 thats not the fault of the pilot(s) flying it. Its simply what the market demands. If the 900 wasn't available, they might pull out of the market altogether. With the economy the way it is and the cost of fuel as volatile as it is, I don't think its a forgone conclusion that if 90% of RJ's were suddenly gone tomorrow that there would be an automatic influx of 737's and A319's replacing all of that lift.

You too make some good points Tin, but the bottom line is that an airplane like the 900 should be a Mainline aircraft. The pilots at the majors let that slip away a few years back. Can we get it back? Don't know and probably not.

The point about the guy being comfortable with his schedule and pay at the regional level is exactly my point. It's TOO GOOD. We entice too many people into this profession by making it a descent paying job at the lower levels. If the only reward was at the top, more people wouldn't just jump into aviation, and many have. The reward should be harder to attain. The initial sacrifice should be greater, and the ultimate reward should be just that...THE ULTIMATE job at a major airline. Used to be that way, anyway.

I respect your point of view Tin. Good luck moving up in the regionals to get that PIC time. In time, you will get where it sounds to me like you desire to be someday. Stay within your means and keep climbing the ladder.

Tinpusher007
11-16-2008, 08:56 AM
You too make some good points Tin, but the bottom line is that an airplane like the 900 should be a Mainline aircraft. The pilots at the majors let that slip away a few years back. Can we get it back? Don't know and probably not.

The point about the guy being comfortable with his schedule and pay at the regional level is exactly my point. It's TOO GOOD. We entice too many people into this profession by making it a descent paying job at the lower levels. If the only reward was at the top, more people wouldn't just jump into aviation, and many have. The reward should be harder to attain. The initial sacrifice should be greater, and the ultimate reward should be just that...THE ULTIMATE job at a major airline. Used to be that way, anyway.

I respect your point of view Tin. Good luck moving up in the regionals to get that PIC time. In time, you will get where it sounds to me like you desire to be someday. Stay within your means and keep climbing the ladder.

Thanks for the well-wishing. And I respect your opinion and good points as well. Best of luck to you in your career as well!

utedrummer
11-16-2008, 09:18 AM
The point about the guy being comfortable with his schedule and pay at the regional level is exactly my point. It's TOO GOOD..

:eek::eek: No pilot job seat is TOO GOOD! We ALL worked HARD for where we are and ALL PAY is too low and ALL schedules arnt good enough. The regionals arnt too good, the MAINLINES JUST ARNT BETTER AND THEY SHOULD BE!!!! I have been a first year FO twice in three years (now furloughed again and looking for my 3rd first year FO seat if I'm lucky to find one hiring), a CFI for 4 years before that. It cost me over $100K for my ratings etc, as much if not more then a doctor. In the 7 years I have been A PROFESSIONAL PILOT utilizing MY COMMERCIAL PREVELIEGES I have filed taxes for less then $15K each year and you are telling me after seven years of ****** the regionals treat me too good?? Its pilots like you that look to knock down other pilot who are BENEATH YOU that are the problem. Raise the bottom and top goes up too. If the RJ CA is making $150K then you have good reason to ask for more.

And Yes. A National List would solve the problems. One Pilot Ran Union that the pilots work for. The airlines come to the union to find pilots and since the union has them the airline has to play by the unions rules instead of the other way around like it is now. Company X tells the union whats its required mins are, offers bases and the pilots that meet the mins bid for the bases. Still have to "interview" with the company so the company doesnt get stuck with a sub-par pilot. Union charges company, union pays pilot. Every pilot getting equal and better pay based on aircraft and union seniority (seniorty based on something as simply as the day you received you Comm. lisence and became eligible for pay). Only reason to change company is for a better life-fitting base. If company X managment sucks and goes BK pilots dont lose seniority and bid for the next open base spot.

Just my thoughts. There IS a better way and fear keeps all you big shots from it.

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 09:45 AM
:eek::eek: No pilot job seat is TOO GOOD! We ALL worked HARD for where we are and ALL PAY is too low and ALL schedules arnt good enough. The regionals arnt too good, the MAINLINES JUST ARNT BETTER AND THEY SHOULD BE!!!! I have been a first year FO twice in three years (now furloughed again and looking for my 3rd first year FO seat if I'm lucky to find one hiring), a CFI for 4 years before that. It cost me over $100K for my ratings etc, as much if not more then a doctor. In the 7 years I have been A PROFESSIONAL PILOT utilizing MY COMMERCIAL PREVELIEGES I have filed taxes for less then $15K each year and you are telling me after seven years of ****** the regionals treat me too good??

That's exactly what I'm saying UTE. By the way, you shouldn't be flying for an airline after 4 years of flight instructing. What do you think you should be making? You're entire argument is completely WRONG! I surely hope you don't think the idea of "spreading the wealth around" is a good deal as well.

I feel for the young regional FO's out there, and the pay probably could be better for them. But, you are paying your dues, just as a doctor does through residency after medical school. He makes nothing too.

And you're wrong. Better pay at the bottom is a big part of the problem with not as much pay at the top. No incentive to leave once you make that BIG 60K CA job. Just as bigger airplanes going to the regionals is as much, if not worse of a problem.

utedrummer
11-16-2008, 10:15 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying UTE. By the way, you shouldn't be flying for an airline after 4 years of flight instructing. What do you think you should be making? You're entire argument is completely WRONG! I surely hope you don't think the idea of "spreading the wealth around" is a good deal as well.

Are you implying that I wasnt qualified or experienced? I had well over my 1000/100 that 90% of the regionals dont required anymore AND I did (forgot to meantion this) spend 6 hard Utah winter months as freight dawg in a 99/1900(which, btw paid me more than any of my "airline jobs" thus far)
Yes, all the moeny should belong to you, right? Because you earned it and no one else has. Back to the point, all you Big Shot "Greater than thou" mainliners, x-military, ego driven 20 yr CA's have everything to lose by helping out, you cant look past you own wallet or pride and you fear that if you do you will be less somehow so nothing can happen.

I feel for the young regional FO's out there, and the pay probably could be better for them. But, you are paying your dues, just as a doctor does through residency after medical school. He makes nothing too.

Not for 7 years :)

And you're wrong. Better pay at the bottom is a big part of the problem with not as much pay at the top. No incentive to leave once you make that BIG 60K CA job. Just as bigger airplanes going to the regionals is as much, if not worse of a problem.

I have my eye on well more than $60K but its not always about the money. I live in an area where only one regional and one mainline have a base anywhere close. I would spend the REST OF MY CAREER at the regional to live at home if I couldnt get on with the mainline here. I dont want SW with their big paychecks and good routes, I want to be home with my spouse, my children, my siblings, my partents and my lifelong friends. It has nothing to do with being happy at $60K. It has everything to do with being happy with different priorites. Most career regionals pilots have made that choice and you are getting mad at them because they arnt starving for doing it?? Whats wrong with you?:confused:

Frozen Ronin
11-16-2008, 10:36 AM
LOL! Trying to pull pilots together in one direction is like trying to HERD CATS!!

BTW, any one of you guys could make over 60,000/yr flying a 207 in Alaska, with paid company housing and bennies. That's at the entry level op, with 20/10 block days. Who here in regional world has 10 days off, together and protected, each month in their first year? Hmm? And jumpseating? The options are there, sometimes they're hard to find.

It's really sad watching what happens in our chosen career field. I've been watching it happen for 30 years, both on the maintenance side and the flight side. The original post was an exasperated "what next?" head shake, and I'm behind him. When we stop covering our own butts and start covering our collective butts, we might all take this industry in the direction WE want it to go. Until then, it's like herding cats. Good luck to us all.

Cheers,

Ronin

Ziggy
11-16-2008, 12:48 PM
BECAUSE...If you keep making life at the regionals better, what is YOUR incentive to move on??? If the regionals keep getting better contracts with better pay, benefits, bigger airplanes, you get the picture, IT BRINGS DOWN THE PROFESSION AS A WHOLE. You're willingness to fly an RJ900, as an example, from JFK to TPA, as a regional guy for regional pay, brings down the industry a couple of notches. A flight of that length and from a market such as that should only be flown by a mainline aircraft and crew.

Eventually, you become ANOTHER major carrier because WE'VE allowed you to do it for less. There's already too much capacity out there and we don't need to keep increasing it further.

It's already coming to fruition. Look at the drawdown of the regionals with the 50 seaters going away. Now we must draw the line and not allow scope to get away again. It's time we man-up and start taking it back to the mainlines!

Again, the regionals should be viewed BY ALL as a stepping stone, not a career position that one strives to attain!


What's done it done. I seriously doubt that you're going to reverse the whole RJ at the regionals issue. I have always thought that regionals should have never gotton jets. But they did, and I doubt that will change. Now we must look to the future. We must fight for the right of self-help, even when a company enters chapter 11. Mainline can help themselves by putting seat scope in place and enforcing it. Next ALPA/Teamsters and other pilot unions need to look at themselves and stop undermining each other. This will allow the regional pilots and their unions to demand better compensation. Once this had been accomplished, then mainline can follow.
One thing I have learned over my time is one size does not fit all. Not all pilots want mainline for one reason or another. Does this mean they should not enjoy some kind of lifestyle? In the end what affects one end will affect the other. And what affects one side with also translate over the other side. Meaning this implecation reaches farther then just 121.

SaltyDog
11-16-2008, 02:43 PM
A voice of sanity! Thankyou.., I whole heartedly agree! I know the devil is in the painful details and even more painful to orchestrate. To hear someone else say it.., I'd buy you a beer if we were at a bar LOL!.

You know the hardest part, would be (I think) getting everybody to agree to what the "National List" criteria would be. Who qualifies to be on the "list" and who doesn't. Initial DOH at a part 121/135 carrier? Actually maybe the hardest part would be to have any agreement that a (single) National Seniority List could be of any benefit to us at all.

The next BIG issue would be getting the airlines/carriers to abide by it, where payscales are involved. The benefit of creating a national seniority list would primarily to protect pay and recognize experience as it should. But this would have a definate impact on their labor costs. I'm sure there are many aspects of this idea that I'm missing so please forgive my ignorance. Also I'm trying to be brief so I'm sure I'm leaving out stuff that could make the point a little stronger.

Will never work. One primary reason: The Railway Labor Act (http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html)
Ultimately, the value of a union is the unity and being able to strike. Everything else hinges on the ability to strike to get an employer to bargain seriously.
RLA is used to protect the consumer (thus management has the upper leg via congress (all stripes) since 1926. Vote whomever party. Since 1926, it is rigged for J. Q. Public. All parties have upheld RLA. So, even if the utopian NSL is designed, would be quashed by Congress. Thus, fruitless.
Tough enough to get unity at one, common employer, it is impossible to get unity across multi-employers. Isn't possible. Great concept though.

Better idea, get all unions to leverage off each others strengths. We need to "CO-OP", we can do this now! Talk to your union leadership. We see examples of this (ALPA), but do they work strategically with CAPA? or other independent unions? No, why not? Demand that your leaders explore how to leverage off one another. Far more realistic and absolutely possible. Spend your energies in this endeavor. We do this already to a small degree (safety), but we rarely strategize together for negotiations. Union A uses data from Union B, but collaboration is almost nil. The lines of communication needs to increase for max leverage. Also, having local unions can respond more effectively to the Lorenzo's in the business. If there is a wound, needs to be dealt with at the site, not all over. However, all other unions could support financially the ones doing the lifting. I am all for all unions getting a national strike fund put in a trust. i.e. When Airline A pilots attempt a strike, they know ALL (majority perhaps) will pay their medical, and some strike benfits to encourage them to effectively deal with the Lorenzo types instead of letting them beat our profession down.
My pennies worth.

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 03:19 PM
Are you implying that I was qualified or experienced? No, I was implying that you were not qualified and inexperienced.
Yes, all the moeny should belong to you, right? Because you earned it and no one else has. Back to the point, all you Big Shot "Greater than thou" mainliners, x-military, ego driven 20 yr CA's have everything to lose by helping out, you cant look past you own wallet or pride and you fear that if you do you will be less somehow so nothing can happen.
Wow, I'm a second year FO at a major, not a 20yr CA. And yes, I spent 12 years in the military. Point being, if I can leave 12 years of service for the majors, YOU ALSO can do the same without harming your QOL. My initial point was to the regional CA who thinks they can't leave because of this. They choose to stay for their own reasons. My point is, as ALPA or a national union for that matter, we should make them not want to stay by capping the regional salary.

Not for 7 years :)

Really, let's see. 4 years of college, followed by 4 years of medical school, followed by 4 years of residency, then maybe a few years of fellowship...Ok, maybe they made 30K a year while in residency and fellowship, but they still have 150K in loans. You do the math.

I have my eye on well more than $60K but its not always about the money. WOW. That's great! I live in an area where only one regional and one mainline have a base anywhere close. I would spend the REST OF MY CAREER at the regional to live at home if I couldnt get on with the mainline here. I dont want SW with their big paychecks and good routes, I want to be home with my spouse, my children, my siblings, my partents and my lifelong friends. It has nothing to do with being happy at $60K. It has everything to do with being happy with different priorites. Noble, but that's the same mentality I could have if I decide to cross a picket line. I'll work for nothing because it suites me just fine. Most career regionals pilots have made that choice and you are getting mad at them because they arnt starving for doing it?? Whats wrong with you?:confused:

And alas, you're working for minimum wages. Which in turn, has helped to bring this profession to the doldrums where we currently are! Still confused? Wake up and get a clue!

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 03:36 PM
I would spend the REST OF MY CAREER at the regional to live at home if I couldnt get on with the mainline here. I dont want SW with their big paychecks and good routes, I want to be home with my spouse, my children, my siblings, my partents and my lifelong friends. It has nothing to do with being happy at $60K. It has everything to do with being happy with different priorites. Most career regionals pilots have made that choice and you are getting mad at them because they arnt starving for doing it?? Whats wrong with you?:confused:

You sound like a young guy. I would suggest you look to a different profession if you're going to be happy making 60K a year, regardless of your reasons. I, WE AS A PROFESSION INCLUDED, didn't invest all this time and energy, blood, sweat, tears, and a little combat in between, too come back to a profession that has been torn apart and ravaged because of people like you. I suggest you go to Burger King or McDonalds. As long as you've got a college degree, and I'm hoping you do, you should have no trouble getting into a management program making 60K per year!;)

ficone
11-16-2008, 05:40 PM
Rhino -

So you're saying you want regional CA pay capped at $25/hr? According to the APC profiles, that is the lowest 1st yr FO pay at US Air.

You were making about the the same as an 8-yr regional CA by the time you left the military for wherever you are now, and obviously weren't "too comfortable" to stay in.

Even if it's your intent to use the regionals as a stepping stone to the majors, circumstances out of your control may leave you at the regional level for upwards of 10 years before you are even competitive to be hired by a major airline. Then, are you lucky enough that the majors are hiring at that time? Maybe, maybe not.

You're against "spreading the wealth," but seem you'd rather blame others for the degradation of the industry? Seem to be of opposite philosophies and pretty ballsy for someone in their 2nd year of the 121 world. You may have paid your dues elsewhere, but stop acting like you've paid them in the airlines.

Plus, I just don't think your logic is good. It's the regional pilots who are causing the problem by taking a low wage job? But, they are also getting too comfortable because wages are too high? So the solution is for them to accept a job that caps out at little more than what regional FOs make now? Doesn't compute.

I don't like to see mainline jobs go away either, but it's happened, and there's little chance of ever going back. So I think we need to fight for better wages at all levels, not put caps on anyone.

Beechlover
11-16-2008, 05:52 PM
You sound like a young guy. I would suggest you look to a different profession if you're going to be happy making 60K a year, regardless of your reasons. I, WE AS A PROFESSION INCLUDED, didn't invest all this time and energy, blood, sweat, tears, and a little combat in between, too come back to a profession that has been torn apart and ravaged because of people like you. I suggest you go to Burger King or McDonalds. As long as you've got a college degree, and I'm hoping you do, you should have no trouble getting into a management program making 60K per year!;)


Everybody has a situation they have to live with right? For example, I spent 20 years of my life in the military, retired, and now at the ripe young age of 44 am currently flying for a 50 to 86 seat regional. I consider myself to be pretty open minded, relatively tolerant of differing points of view on ANY subject. After all it's just conversation, not combat right? I've seen my fair share of deployments and campaigns. Here's the thing, I see as I stated in my original first post, and you just made my point for me.

Do you really believe that regional carriers are the cause for the so called race to the bottom? This argument of "that life is soo good that pilots are'nt willing to work to get to what should be the pinnacle of a pilot's career, the "Majors." I agree with you that in the last 15 or so years, regional carriers have become to look more and more like the Legacy carriers they work with.., yes. Regionals have evolved from short hop turbo props to 86+ seat jets capable of transcontinental range, equipped with the latest in modern avionics, and all the comforts and conveniences, yadda yadda.

I'll be the first to admit, that I may very well spend the next 21 years of my remaining flying career right here. And the way things are looking, I'm gonna be see a six figure salary here (luck and health permitting of course). Not to shabby if you ask me. Doesn't mean I'm closing the door to opportunity, but the single biggest impediment to me leaving for a Major carrier is the seniority system as it exists today. So after having completed one career, I'm well aware of what it's gonna take to make me happy.

Now.., let me ask you a rhetorical question.., what do you think the single biggest reason is that podunk regional carriers evolved to what we have today? Beggining the "race to mediocrity." or the bottom for that matter?

One word..., SCOPE. Who has control of scope.., um I think that woiuld the pilots who are employed at the respective "Major" carriers. The simple fact is, regionals didn't "Steal" anything, it was GIVEN away by pilots senior to you and me, for what ever reason or concession management gave them in return.

Don't take my word for it, ask any senior Capt at your carrier. Any rational pilot who's been paying attention in this industry will know what I'm saying. Regional pilots aren't the bad guys, we as a pilot group are selling our selves out for a buck or a job security (a promise to not furlough) or more flying you name it. Somebody sold our profession to management piece by piece in order to prevent an undesirable outcome, or for some short term negotiated benefit. What ever the reason is irrelevant.

So now that we are WAAAY of topic I'll atempt to steer us back on by saying if anybody is still interested please follow this link and take a look, at what this person had to say on the subject of a National Seniority List two years ago.


http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/union-talk/6634-national-seniority-list.html

FlyBoyd
11-16-2008, 06:52 PM
Back to the point, all you Big Shot "Greater than thou" mainliners, x-military, ego driven 20 yr CA's have everything to lose by helping out, you cant look past you own wallet or pride and you fear that if you do you will be less somehow so nothing can happen.

If someone could educate me please.

How does the bold item above make his argument stronger/weaker? Is it just a dig from a guy that feels ex-military don't have his level of experience or they didn't sacrifice what he has?

I have seen this a few places and I have yet to understand the argument or lack thereof.

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 08:04 PM
Beech,

This paragraph came from the article.

"I think the NSL should be based on your DOH at any 121 carrier. This allows APA, SWAPA, otherwise affiliated and unafiliated pilots to get on board. I think that 100% endorsement of the NSL by 121 pilot groups is essential, even if they are not ALPA represented."

This leaves out one of the largest pilot pools, and I would argue the group the majors most consistently look to for potential employment, the x-military guy. There is no way a guy hired with 250 hours (even 1000 hours) at a regional, should be granted a national seniority number just because it's a 121 carrier. I look at the regionals as a stepping stone to the majors, just as many have used the military.

Even so, how can you argue a national list? We don't work for ALPA, we work for individual airlines. And as I stated earlier, there's a conflict of interest for regional pilots to be represented by the same union as the majors.

Rhino Driver
11-16-2008, 08:38 PM
Rhino -

So you're saying you want regional CA pay capped at $25/hr? According to the APC profiles, that is the lowest 1st yr FO pay at US Air. I think DAL and UAL are $50/hr for the first year pay. Regardless, the answer is yes. The CA at a regional should not make more than an FO at a major.

You were making about the the same as an 8-yr regional CA by the time you left the military for wherever you are now, and obviously weren't "too comfortable" to stay in. Quite the opposite. Financially, the military can be very comfortable. In fact, many choose not to leave the military in this day and age due to not wanting to leave the comfort factor, so I really do understand.

Even if it's your intent to use the regionals as a stepping stone to the majors, circumstances out of your control may leave you at the regional level for upwards of 10 years before you are even competitive to be hired by a major airline. Then, are you lucky enough that the majors are hiring at that time? Maybe, maybe not. You probably would be if we stopped giving jet flying to the regional level. As stated in my earlier post, anything over 70 seats should be mainline and at mainline wages.

You're against "spreading the wealth," but seem you'd rather blame others for the degradation of the industry? Seem to be of opposite philosophies and pretty ballsy for someone in their 2nd year of the 121 world. You may have paid your dues elsewhere, but stop acting like you've paid them in the airlines. Wow, and I guess you have. See, this is the problem. We've made it too good at the regional level, so now you can make statements like this as if you know everything there is to know because you've been "flying for the airlines." News flash, you should have been flying routes in and out of small airfields to service the major airlines, not the way the current system is set up. Regionals have no business flying into places like NYC, ATL, ORD, LAX, etc. This has created the airspace nightmare we have today. Regionals should only connect service to smaller hubs. The largest glass B airspace should be reserved for larger airplanes. And I have paid my dues. Trust me, my flying experiences really have been far more challenging in the military than you believe.

Plus, I just don't think your logic is good. It's the regional pilots who are causing the problem by taking a low wage job? But, they are also getting too comfortable because wages are too high? So the solution is for them to accept a job that caps out at little more than what regional FOs make now? Doesn't compute. Yes it does. The way you want it, and really, it's what we have today, is that a company like COMAIR (just as an example guys, there are many out there) can continue to grow larger and larger. Eventually, as is the case today, they reach a point where they have actually become a national (if not major) sized carrier. They do it for lower wages and end up taking jobs away from mainline carriers. In the end, it has hurt the profession as a whole. It should be a stepping stone, not a career goal as I stated earlier. And there is nothing wrong with a guy who wants to stay as a profession, it should just be capped in wages.

I don't like to see mainline jobs go away either, but it's happened, and there's little chance of ever going back. So I think we need to fight for better wages at all levels, not put caps on anyone. Disagree. If we were to continue on this track, eventually, someone will replace your flying because they will be willing to do it for less. Years ago, COMAIR had visions of flying the 737, and someone would then have to supply feed for them. It could be a vicious, never ending cycle.

ficone
11-17-2008, 12:10 AM
I think DAL and UAL are $50/hr for the first year pay. Regardless, the answer is yes. The CA at a regional should not make more than an FO at a major. OK fine, but you said the lowest FO pay of the majors, which is the rate I posted. $50/hr would at least be somewhat reasonable. Were you one of those guys that thought it was it was an injustice that an E9 made more than you as an O2? Just curious.

Quite the opposite. Financially, the military can be very comfortable. In fact, many choose not to leave the military in this day and age due to not wanting to leave the comfort factor, so I really do understand. You may have missed my point, which was that you were earning good pay at sr. O3 or jr. O4 - comparable to that of a similarly-tenured regional CA. Why, in your eyes, is it OK for a mil pilot to stay in due to the comfort factor, but not for a regional CA to stay at their airline? Granted, at the end of the mil career, there are retirement benefits to be gained. But is it because everyone should want the same thing out of their airline career as you do?

You probably would be if we stopped giving jet flying to the regional level. As stated in my earlier post, anything over 70 seats should be mainline and at mainline wages. OK then. We agree. More mainline jobs is good for everyone. So get scope back. The regionals aren't going to give it to you, so you'll need to take it (or at the very least, keep it where it's at). SCOPE is the problem. Not regional CA's who like it where they are, so stop blaming them for perceived injustices.

Wow, and I guess you have. See, this is the problem. We've made it too good at the regional level, so now you can make statements like this as if you know everything there is to know because you've been "flying for the airlines." News flash, you should have been flying routes in and out of small airfields to service the major airlines, not the way the current system is set up. Regionals have no business flying into places like NYC, ATL, ORD, LAX, etc. This has created the airspace nightmare we have today. Regionals should only connect service to smaller hubs. The largest glass B airspace should be reserved for larger airplanes. And I have paid my dues. Trust me, my flying experiences really have been far more challenging in the military than you believe. Never said I have. I've been at this perhaps 6 months less than you. But the difference is, you don't hear me talking about how I've invested all this time and effort, bodily fluids, and combat time as if I had been fighting the good fight for pay, benefits, and QOL my whole life. When did your airline give away scope? Was it when you were working there? Yes, you have paid your dues, and I acknowledged that, but that wasn't the airlines. Post-military, you did what most everyone here has done: took the best pilot job available to you at the time, whether that be in terms of pay, QOL, or whatever was most important to you. If it isn't now what you expected it to be (or thought you were entitled to) when you first began your flying career, well, you always had the option of staying in and waiting for things to turn around. Hats off to you for taking the leap and making an effort to make things better.

Yes it does. The way you want it, and really, it's what we have today, is that a company like COMAIR (just as an example guys, there are many out there) can continue to grow larger and larger. Eventually, as is the case today, they reach a point where they have actually become a national (if not major) sized carrier. They do it for lower wages and end up taking jobs away from mainline carriers. In the end, it has hurt the profession as a whole. It should be a stepping stone, not a career goal as I stated earlier. And there is nothing wrong with a guy who wants to stay as a profession, it should just be capped in wages. Stop saying what I want. Scope = reduced regional capacity, increased mainline capacity = more mainline jobs, at least that's the way the theory goes.

I'll stop quoting you here, because getting scope back seems to be the common reply to all your arguments, and I think we can agree that it's an element of the solution. The regionals did not grow their ops first, and then wait for scope to be relaxed. Though I'm sure regional management wasn't sad when it happened, regional _pilots_ certainly aren't the ones to blame for decreased flying at the majors.

Reduced regional pay, though perhaps a side effect of any reversals in scope, isn't going to make things better and make all your airline dreams come true.

ebl14
12-05-2008, 07:15 AM
Will never work. One primary reason: The Railway Labor Act (http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html)
Ultimately, the value of a union is the unity and being able to strike. Everything else hinges on the ability to strike to get an employer to bargain seriously.
RLA is used to protect the consumer (thus management has the upper leg via congress (all stripes) since 1926. Vote whomever party. Since 1926, it is rigged for J. Q. Public. All parties have upheld RLA. So, even if the utopian NSL is designed, would be quashed by Congress. Thus, fruitless.
Tough enough to get unity at one, common employer, it is impossible to get unity across multi-employers. Isn't possible. Great concept though.

Better idea, get all unions to leverage off each others strengths. We need to "CO-OP", we can do this now! Talk to your union leadership. We see examples of this (ALPA), but do they work strategically with CAPA? or other independent unions? No, why not? Demand that your leaders explore how to leverage off one another. Far more realistic and absolutely possible. Spend your energies in this endeavor. We do this already to a small degree (safety), but we rarely strategize together for negotiations. Union A uses data from Union B, but collaboration is almost nil. The lines of communication needs to increase for max leverage. Also, having local unions can respond more effectively to the Lorenzo's in the business. If there is a wound, needs to be dealt with at the site, not all over. However, all other unions could support financially the ones doing the lifting. I am all for all unions getting a national strike fund put in a trust. i.e. When Airline A pilots attempt a strike, they know ALL (majority perhaps) will pay their medical, and some strike benfits to encourage them to effectively deal with the Lorenzo types instead of letting them beat our profession down.
My pennies worth.

Yes exactly. A national union should do things like this. I think if we all stood together and took a big chance we could get some serious work done. I say all US pilots demand the RLA be rewritten more fairly or completely taken away or we all WALK!!!!!!! Are they going to throw 100s of thousands of pilots all in the slammer... and if they do, who will fly all those planes? We could get these things done if we just grew some balls already. Unity is key.

IFly17
12-05-2008, 08:40 AM
Here is my simple .02 on the national list. I am against it for some of the many good reasons stated above. I can also understand why a lot of guys are for the national list.

I don't agree with a list, but what I would love to see is a NATIONAL BASE CONTRACT. It is kinda like the NBA where every player gets the same basic deal and whatever a guy can work out more with his team he can do so. The base language and works rules should be the same for every airline and the pay should start at 19 seats and go up to the 747/A380. We set the base contract on the top 75% of the airlines existing pay scales, work rules, days off, recall rights, scope, equipment, you name it. No work groups are allowed to lowball and go below the contract, but if a work group can negotiate better than the base deal they should be allowed to and encouraged to do so. We should show our individual contracts to the group. Knowing the bar other guys in similar airlines and equipment set allows a stronger negotiating position for the rest especially if they can count on the backing of other work groups. The guys on the top right now might lose at the beginning and the guys at the bottom win but over time it will average out.

We all talk about pilots being a brotherhood. This would be the time to prove it. We know the airlines would try to stick it to all of us and not budge on anything more then the base contract. We need to support every other pilot group when they are trying to get what they can in negotiations be it legacy or small regional. If we fail to support one airline, we have screwed all of us. We need to insure that when a company violates the contract or tries to screw a work group they should be prepared to take on every pilot group because we are all working under the same base deal.

We also need to take a stand on pilots who try to undercut the contract. We need to make it crystal clear to pilots that going to work for a company started to get around some sort of other contract (national pilot contract, or scope) that they will be blacklisted from all airlines working under the contract. You are either one of us or you are not.

None the less it is time we stop pointing fingers and work together to make all of our lives better. We should all be paid and work under rules that treat us with the respect we deserve and the only way that will happen is if all of us stand together.

Romulus
12-19-2008, 06:18 PM
Anyone who thinks military careerists stay in for comfort for try being away from their families for a year why strangers shoot at you and try to blow you up.

Don't compare the military with the airlines or any other safe, comfortable job.