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Word coming out is that it is a ratioed list with no restrictions or adaptations for attrition. Pretty much straight as Dal had proposed. Not confirmed yet but should be shortly.

Word coming out is that it is a ratioed list with no restrictions or adaptations for attrition. Pretty much straight as Dal had proposed. Not confirmed yet but should be shortly.

No pull out plug in? I heard there was going to be a pull-out plug-in to give NWA some credit for attrition that is forthcoming on the NWA stand-alone. HMMMM.

Not so fast. Better wait and see what the ratio is, and what the categories are.

Word coming out is that it is a ratioed list with no restrictions or adaptations for attrition. Pretty much straight as Dal had proposed. Not confirmed yet but should be shortly.

Did you hear straight ratio vs category list ratio?

Word coming out is that it is a ratioed list with no restrictions or adaptations for attrition. Pretty much straight as Dal had proposed. Not confirmed yet but should be shortly.

WHERE ARE YOU GETTING YOUR INFO??????:eek:

Keenster,

Go to our(nwa) webboard. One of our, well less than popular, guys posted it but hasn't confirmed it. He's wrong a lot so there still maybe hope.

Keenster,

Go to our(nwa) webboard. One of our, well less than popular, guys posted it but hasn't confirmed it. He's wrong a lot so there still maybe hope.

I can't get back on. Has he (TW) answered how his source (from DAL) got this info when our communications guy said the merger committee hasn't even gotten the award yet?

Confusing? Yes. But, wait until you see the award. :rolleyes:

Confusing? Yes. But, wait until you see the award. :rolleyes:


DEWEY WON!!!

Until you see the award it is all scuttle butt.

I can't even get on the DALPA site anymore. I think we crashed it. It comes up with an error. I'm thinking we won't know anything tonight.:confused:

It's all conjecture until the list is published.

I can't even get on the DALPA site anymore. I think we crashed it. It comes up with an error. I'm thinking we won't know anything tonight.:confused:

It's all conjecture until the list is published.

Glad to know it's not just my connection.... I think the server is toast. :rolleyes: You'd think they would at least put SOMETHING on the code-a-phone... I think Buzz has some 'splaining to do.

The source IS T.W., and he has proven to be, well, less than a credible source in times past. As others have so well posted.....wait till it's posted, then let's just all move forward. I feel pretty sure that the pain is going to be spread around somewhat equally. Hopefully, we'll all work for a stronger, world class airline when all this dust settles.

Chuck
DC9 CA

Glad to know it's not just my connection.... I think the server is toast. :rolleyes: You'd think they would at least put SOMETHING on the code-a-phone... I think Buzz has some 'splaining to do.

Try logging into the ALPA forum...then click on forums in the top left...then choose Delta MEC. I guess it is a "back-door"...but it is working for me.

I believe you are right, we either killed the DALPA server or they have taken it down to post the award.

A simple/short email from the communications committee would be nice and may have saved the website.

Just got this off the DALPA webboard:

____________________________________________

This came from a friend at NWA, who received it from their MEC this afternoon. Communication from the leadership... what a concept.


Seniority List Award Announcement

We expect the seniority list award on Monday, but we don't know how or in what form the award will be delivered. It could be delivered by e-mail. Alternatively, it could be placed in FedEX or snail mail on Monday, which means it wouldn't reach the Merger Committee's hands for one or more days. Also, the award may or may not contain the actual list.

The award will be delivered to the Merger Committee. We expect the Merger Committee to review the award and then provide it to the rest of the pilot group.
The bottom line: While the award is due on the 8th, please don't expect to see it by 5pm on Monday. The Merger Committee will publish the award as soon as possible.

Vice-Chairman's Comments on Seniority List Integration

The process of negotiating and/or arbitrating SLI has been fully understood by everyone; and was agreed upon by the pilots during the ratification of the JCBA. Our Merger Committee and their extended support team has worked tirelessly to present the best possible NWA pilot position within the arbitration process, while simultaneously working the negotiated effort. Ultimately, a negotiated list was not to be. I urge all Council 1 pilots to move forward in a positive manner regardless of what the results of the SLI may be. There are many items still in play, including resolving contract transition issues, and the need to move rapidly within the joint MEC to assure that 12,000 pilots have success in the new company. Failure to accomplish this would be detrimental to former NWA pilots and the new DAL. Failure is not an option.

I believe you are right, we either killed the DALPA server or they have taken it down to post the award.

I just got on the DALPA web board. As of 10:04pm est, no award.

The source IS T.W., and he has proven to be, well, less than a credible source in times past. As others have so well posted.....wait till it's posted, then let's just all move forward. I feel pretty sure that the pain is going to be spread around somewhat equally. Hopefully, we'll all work for a stronger, world class airline when all this dust settles.

Chuck
DC9 CA

Is this what that guy posted on the NWA board?:

There is no 'list', but the parties have received the award. Reported to be
a ratio with NO conditions and restrictions.

The info comes from the Delta side, so no guarantee that it is accurate.

The difficulty for our Merger guys will be to work up a list (using the
supplied conditions), and then compare the result with their Delta
counterparts to make sure both sides agree before publishing.

I am able to get on the webboard (though extremely slow it is) but the website with all the .pdfs, committees, merger news and code-a-phones etc. is still is down.

Is this what that guy posted on the NWA board?:

There is no 'list', but the parties have received the award. Reported to be
a ratio with NO conditions and restrictions.

The info comes from the Delta side, so no guarantee that it is accurate.

The difficulty for our Merger guys will be to work up a list (using the
supplied conditions), and then compare the result with their Delta
counterparts to make sure both sides agree before publishing.


Nevermind.

At least the stock is up. I doubt the list results were out when this thread started because we all know the media are never wrong.

Disclaimer:Red bolded wording below added by poster for entertainment value only.


Delta, NWA pilots await seniority decision
Monday December 8, 7:03 pm ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Airlines Writer

Pilots at Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines await panel's decision on seniority integration

ATLANTA (AP) -- Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines pilots awaited a decision Monday from an arbitration panel on how their seniority lists will be integrated.
Spokeswomen for Delta and its pilots union did not know when the three-member panel would issue a decision. There also was the possibility pilots at the two carriers could reach a deal on their own, pre-empting a panel decision. Whether the two sides were talking was unclear.
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Pilots value their seniority. Those at the top of the list get first choice on vacations, the best routes and the bigger planes that they get paid more for flying.
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There are those who have been tryting to figure out how you have access to that board for quite some time. Care to tell? :rolleyes:

I don't have access...I got that from an NWA friend via IM.

FWIW...there's about 13,000 of us who are trying to find out what the award is at this very moment...save for the ones currently leaving a contrail, we are actively exchanging information. :)

So is that what was posted on the board that caused Opus to start this thread? Buehler? Is this thing on? Tap Tap Tap.

To get to the DALPA boards you can get there from the national site. Log on to the ALPA Message Board then in the upper left hand corner of the screen it says "Boards >> ALPA Message Board >> Logged In", click on "Boards" and it will give you a link to click on to get to the DALPA board.

To get to the DALPA boards you can get there from the national site. Log on to the ALPA Message Board then in the upper left hand corner of the screen it says "Boards >> ALPA Message Board >> Logged In", click on "Boards" and it will give you a link to click on to get to the DALPA board.

That's the "back door" I was referring to...that is how I got logged onto the DALPA board.

I am hearing that the results will be out shortly, within 30 minutes. It is as predicted. Congratulations to the Dal pilots.

I am hearing that the results will be out shortly, within 30 minutes. It is as predicted. Congratulations to the Dal pilots.

Clock hacked 10:46 ET :confused:

I am hearing that the results will be out shortly, within 30 minutes. It is as predicted. Congratulations to the Dal pilots.

What is your source of info???? Credible?????

Keenster,
Yeah, I wish it wasn't. But it is. It's ugly

Any details you can share?

Nwaalpa is supposed to put out an email any minute now with the exact info (I can't speak for dalpa). But the list as I understand it is pretty much close to the list dalpa put out.

I am hearing that the results will be out shortly, within 30 minutes. It is as predicted. Congratulations to the Dal pilots.


11:16PM, what's the 4-11?

It's on the DALPA webpage now....

Probably dread. This will be a hard email for our guys to send out. But it should be out shortly.

Fences? Anyone???

Got it off DALPA.

5 years on the 777 for DL and 5 years 747 787 only for NW.

Fences? Anyone???

The current rumor on the NALPA boards is 5 year fences on the 777, 747-400, 747-200 and 787. That's it. No other restrictions.

It's on the NWA Merger page. Click the "seniority list arbitration" link and its the top link after that. Looks like pretty close to straight ratio, no staple of NWA guys on the bottom. I'm an Oct 99 hire, and I'm between two DAL guys hired Feb 2001.

It's on the NWA Merger page. Click the "seniority list arbitration" link and its the top link after that. Looks like pretty close to straight ratio, no staple of NWA guys on the bottom. I'm an Oct 99 hire, and I'm between two DAL guys hired Feb 2001.

Yup, it appears to be a straight 7:5 ratio versus the category ratio originally proposed by Dalpa. About what I expected the arbitrators to do. Most people seem to keep their relative percentage on the list within 1% or so.

FWIW, I am at .0027% of my current seniority list number and am in the bottom 10%.

It looks like they moved NWA pilots up a few % points for retirements. Am I reading that right? I have a headache from all the pink and sky blue. :)

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/34392-its-out.html#post514518

This was about what I expected. A relative seniority /7:5 type ratio. I had hoped for a little bit of a % bump for retirements, but we did not get it. I lost about 18 months from a date of hire award but gained about 600 from the original DAL propasol.

It is now time to move on and work togather.

Sadly your same % at NWA would have gotton you a DC9 instead of the 767ER you now enjoy. Whoever calls this a win for DAL does not does not understand what DAL brought to the table. The NW guy infront of me enjoys reserve on the 757 at NW and now will be a line holder on 767-400 with me.

Go figure

This was about what I expected. A relative seniority /7:5 type ratio. I had hoped for a little bit of a % bump for retirements, but we did not get it. I lost about 18 months from a date of hire award but gained about 600 from the original DAL propasol.

It is now time to move on and work togather.

I think we did get a little bump for retirements. I think there is some pain all around. Look to the middle of the list where we have some NWA '95 hires mixed in with their '88 hires.

PULL and PLUG aka Dynamic Seniority List.

Has anyone figured out whether this was only done for the ISSL or is it a permanent process as pilots of each pre-merger group retire?

Sadly your same % at NWA would have gotton you a DC9 instead of the 767ER you now enjoy. Whoever calls this a win for DAL does not does not understand what DAL brought to the table. The NW guy infront of me enjoys reserve on the 757 at NW and now will be a line holder on 767-400 with me.

Go figure


Daldude

First off if we meet first beers on me. You are right the snapshot today gives him some benefit, (if he wants to go to NY). However in my example I would be retired at about number 30 had NWA stood alone and beena WB A for the last 10 to 15 years. I would gues I will probably still hold a WB A position but only for about half that time.

In the long run if we all are a little ****ed off the arbitrators must have done a good job.

I think we did get a little bump for retirements. I think there is some pain all around. Look to the middle of the list where we have some NWA '95 hires mixed in with their '88 hires.

Exactly. The top and middle guys at Delta won't like this as much as the bottom guys at Delta. I'm a Delta guy and I'm glad to see we got the DC-9 FO group in with the rest of us.

PULL and PLUG.

Has anyone figured out whether this was only done for the ISSL or is it a permanent process as pilots of each pre-merger group retire?

It seems to be a one time process done during the construction of the list. Not a recurring thing. If I'm reading it right, we apparently got credit for 274 future retirements before they constructed the list.

PULL and PLUG aka Dynamic Seniority List.

Has anyone figured out whether this was only done for the ISSL or is it a permanent process as pilots of each pre-merger group retire?


It's not anywhere near dynamic. They pulled out the 274 oldest NWA guys, ratioed who was left, then plugged those 274 old geezers back into the list one number senior to the NWA guy who was junior to them on the NWA list. That is a one time deal and now the list is what it is until we merge with Alaska. When numero uno retires, everyone moves up one number just like it has always been.

Freekin ALPA site is down...grrr. Someone call Herdon and wake those dudes up.

Nu

PULL and PLUG.

Has anyone figured out whether this was only done for the ISSL or is it a permanent process as pilots of each pre-merger group retire?

I read it as a one time process

PULL and PLUG.

Has anyone figured out whether this was only done for the ISSL or is it a permanent process as pilots of each pre-merger group retire?

It was only done for the ISSL. The 274 oldest former NWA pilots were pulled out of the list, and then the staffing ratios based on the July 2008 fleets were run. Those 274 pilots were then reinserted back into the list one number ahead of the guy they were senior to on the standalone list.

There is no dynamic component. The list is a 4 category and status ratio list with a minimal "premium" fence. All NWA pilots junior to any of the 274 pulled and plugged got an immediate relative seniority windfall that will wash out over time as those 274 pilots actually retire.

I'm not real happy with the fence nor the replacement aircraft language, but all in all it looks like a fair and equitable list. DAL pilots preserve their relative seniority, NWA got some credit for future attrition and immediate SOC access to a larger, higher paying fleet for the 757 drivers and below.

Now it's time to go to work together!

Caddis,

I will gladly drink beers with you in the future and have no ill feelings against any NW pilot.

I guess ultimatly it saddens me to see DAL pilots that looked forward to continued hiring just to fill the cockpits for our planes being delivered in the next 6 months to now facing a very real possibility of furlough due due the 747-200 and DC9 aircraft.

Rockboy,

If you are in the bottom 500 DAL pilot your future is alot more at risk today than it was yesterday.

On a side note: I did get a clarification for DALPA today regarding the no furlough do to merger clause. It is their opinion that the company can come up with any number of reasons to furlough and it not be related to the merger.

I wish everybody the best.

There is some furlough protection - at least for a while:

9. From November 1, 2008, until the first bid period following issuance of
the SOC, any furloughs that are the result of the reduction in flying in the
pre-merger aircraft contained in each airline's pre-merger fleet shall be
borne by the pilots from that pre-merger airline regardless of their system
seniority; provided, however, that any furloughs resulting from such
reduction in B757 shall be shared on a 1:1 basis.

On a side note: I did get a clarification for DALPA today regarding the no furlough do to merger clause. It is their opinion that the company can come up with any number of reasons to furlough and it not be related to the merger.

Or they could just invoke Force Majeure...

I am within .25% of where I was pre-merger (got a slight bump up on the list). Its about what I was hoping for. No major gains on either side. Let's put it behind us and kick some SWA @$$!!!!!!

I'd rather kick AMR's @ss then we could be number one to Asia, Europe and SA :)

Can anyone tell me, approximately, the senior and junior widebody (767ER) captain seniority in JFK and ATL?

Old number or new it doesn't matter as long as you specify which it is...

Signed,

Lost 1%

Of course "Force Majeure" is an option been there done that.

9. From November 1, 2008, until the first bid period following issuance of
the SOC, any furloughs that are the result of the reduction in flying in the
pre-merger aircraft contained in each airline's pre-merger fleet shall be
borne by the pilots from that pre-merger airline regardless of their system
seniority; provided, however, that any furloughs resulting from such
reduction in B757 shall be shared on a 1:1 basis.

I would agree that will protect DAL pilot until SOC

However the arbitrators were concerned about down the road based on this statement.

The ratio-based approach creates a generally smoother distribution of pilots throughout much of the list, but it exposes large blocks of Northwest Pilots to furlough vulnerability by populating them at the bottom of the list. Thus, the interests of fairness and equity cannot be served if we accepted that proposal without modifications that reflect the realities of this particular case.

They intentionally picked the catagories to protect the bottom NW pilots due to the DC9.

With that said they could pull a American deal and get rid of 2500 of us. That would be fun.

Once again good luck to all

My seniority, pre-merger group, took about the biggest hit as a group (april 87) hire. The big downer is that my potential to retire on the 330 is iffy. The upside is that I think we may actually be part of something dynamic and positive. I love flying the 320, and god willing, and RA keeping his word, I may be a very happy senior Airbus Captain the rest of my career in Memphis. There are few bases, none as far as I know, that approach the old school friendliness and charm of MEM. And to you old DAL types, you will love the 320/319 and be very welcome in bidding into this bastion of Old Southern Charm. Water under the bridge. Time to move forward!

My seniority, pre-merger group, took about the biggest hit as a group (april 87) hire. The big downer is that my potential to retire on the 330 is iffy. The upside is that I think we may actually be part of something dynamic and positive. I love flying the 320, and god willing, and RA keeping his word, I may be a very happy senior Airbus Captain the rest of my career in Memphis. There are few bases, none as far as I know, that approach the old school friendliness and charm of MEM. And to you old DAL types, you will love the 320/319 and be very welcome in bidding into this bastion of Old Southern Charm. Water under the bridge. Time to move forward!


Just remember when it says Retard, Retard, Retard in a French accent, the first two words are verbs and the last is a noun.

Well boys, I only lost 3% to 46% now and the Delta dude above me is only 15 months junior.

I CAN LIVE WITH THIS!

I agree, time to move on and kick some A$$. Neidemier - DEAD:D

Ferd

PS It's 2:30pm in Taipei............I'm headed for the bar. Anyone in Narita tomorrow night, see anyone at the "Jet Lag"?

PULL and PLUG aka Dynamic Seniority List.

Has anyone figured out whether this was only done for the ISSL or is it a permanent process as pilots of each pre-merger group retire?

One time deal only for the construction of the list.

Carl

FWIW: I'm a mid seniority Delta Guy and lost 2% in seniority. It did go more Delta's way than I thought. Good luck all. To all former NW people: welcome to the biggest dysfunctional family in the world. YOU AIN'T FROM AROUND HERE, ARE YOU BOYS?

FWIW: I'm a mid seniority Delta Guy and lost 2% in seniority. It did go more Delta's way than I thought. Good luck all. To all former NW people: welcome to the biggest dysfunctional family in the world. YOU AIN'T FROM AROUND HERE, ARE YOU BOYS? (As I sit on a bridge and play the banjo)

Hey, why is my bottle of rum empty!

Damn, my plan of jumping 6 years of seniority in 6 months has failed!!!:mad:

Does anyone know a little more about the fences, 5 years is what I read, but I wasn't sure if that applied to all aircraft or only a few specific types.

Yup, you yankees got some pretty mouths.....

Lets just hope that we hedge with oil in the 40$ range..If that is the case we should all do just fine..Welcome to the party

Let's see, i drive the 400...guy next to me drives a 767 and is 6 years junior. Yah....sounds really good. So they drop the 400 and I drop wayyy down...who needs the money anyway. Let's see...I am sitting there with wife and kids for vacation...and some junior boy gets on the plane ahead of us...6 years junior....oh really fine. Let's all just get along now can we.

Let's see...I am sitting there with wife and kids for vacation...and some junior boy gets on the plane ahead of us...6 years junior....oh really fine.

Wrong.
This list has nothing to do with non-revving.
You keep your date of hire for that.

Let's see, i drive the 400...guy next to me drives a 767 and is 6 years junior. Yah....sounds really good. So they drop the 400 and I drop wayyy down...who needs the money anyway. Let's see...I am sitting there with wife and kids for vacation...and some junior boy gets on the plane ahead of us...6 years junior....oh really fine. Let's all just get along now can we.

Redtail, I don't think you read the award and all the legaleze.As far as boarding the non-rev special DL goes by date of hire, period.

So what aircraft are now Super Premium????:D

It's a done deal and I can live with it. Cheers to us all!

Maybe to be more accurate...I would change your avatar to a worn out DC9 becasue thats coming your way. The 400 is long gone for you.

Maybe to be more accurate...I would change your avatar to a worn out DC9 becasue thats coming your way. The 400 is long gone for you.

You mean something like this...... :rolleyes:

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/gallery/images/commercial/dc9_DAC16042.jpg

Let's see, i drive the 400...guy next to me drives a 767 and is 6 years junior. Yah....sounds really good. So they drop the 400 and I drop wayyy down...who needs the money anyway. Let's see...I am sitting there with wife and kids for vacation...and some junior boy gets on the plane ahead of us...6 years junior....oh really fine. Let's all just get along now can we.

...and you'll continue to "drive" the 400 until you're 65 if you choose and exercise your date of hire for non-revving on an airline that is more than twice the size of your old airline. You have your retirement and the 767 "driver" doesn't. Other than your perceived loss on a list, where did you lose?:confused: I think the arbitrators did the best they could. Am I fully happy...no, I wanted to be Number 1 on the list. That last sentence was TIC but I am still not 100% happy. I will move on and continue to live my life, however and treat all 12,433 other Delta pilots with respect and courtesy that they deserve.:D

This thread is titled DAL WON for gods sake....

Just give me a second though and I will run out and start a campfifre....lets sing,

"Cumbia My Lord - Cumbia...Cumbia My Lord - Cumbia..."

Yah--right.

Seniority is everything...which is what this is all about...just wait till planes are parked and you have put in a little more time into this profession...like over 30 lets say just for grins...then we will talk OK.

Maybe I thinking more of this...


http://www.nocaptionneeded.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/broken-plane.png

I really wouldn't say that "Delta" won. I think the award is for the most part fair to both sides.

If things start going backwards then perceptions on this could change dramatically. I am surprised that the fences are not bigger.

Let's hope for the best in the future

This thread started last night before anybody knew the award...check the time stamp. Bad title in my opinion.

BTW...I am behind former NWA pilots that are 4 years junior DOH than me.

There is nothing to be said from senior NWA guys other than...this is HOG WASH...period.

Straight to the point...again...what did you lose Redtail?

There is nothing to be said from senior NWA guys other than...this is HOG WASH...period.

Redtail, You are keeping this thread from being boring.If you are as senior as you say then in the next 5 years nothing other than where you might fly is going to change.Am I missing something ?

My seniority, pre-merger group, took about the biggest hit as a group (april 87) hire. The big downer is that my potential to retire on the 330 is iffy. The upside is that I think we may actually be part of something dynamic and positive. I love flying the 320, and god willing, and RA keeping his word, I may be a very happy senior Airbus Captain the rest of my career in Memphis. There are few bases, none as far as I know, that approach the old school friendliness and charm of MEM. And to you old DAL types, you will love the 320/319 and be very welcome in bidding into this bastion of Old Southern Charm. Water under the bridge. Time to move forward!

Don't forget its the last city in the system where your income allows you to live like the pilots of old. I lived in MEM for five years and it would be hard for me to find a house in any part of town I wanted to live, even on FO pay.

This thread is titled DAL WON for gods sake....

Just give me a second though and I will run out and start a campfifre....lets sing,

"Cumbia My Lord - Cumbia...Cumbia My Lord - Cumbia..."

Yah--right.

Seniority is everything...which is what this is all about...just wait till planes are parked and you have put in a little more time into this profession...like over 30 lets say just for grins...then we will talk OK.

Wow, condescending and after 30 years in the profession you still can't spell. What did you lose? You're on the -400 and you will stay there.

It's 'Kumbaya My Lord' btw. Cumbia came from some Ron Jeremy movie. That is unless that's what you were referring to.

To quote "Hoot" in Black Hawk Down, Hey, "It's a whole new week, It's Monday!" I have a lot to be thankful for. I could have taken my Western Airlines class date in Feb 87' and been way up this list. I also would never have met my Super Premium, non-widebody wife here in MEM, never retired from a terrific ANG unit in same, missed out on a hundred Cayman layovers, like number of "illegal" overnights to almost a full night of sleep, stayed in my same house on a lake, raised two wonderful kids in a less stressful environment, and kept some semblance of my retirement. I've found what I was looking for, and it wasn't in an arbitrated seniority list. The hat and the Thurston Howell lll coat are probably my biggest concerns now. All the best to all DAL pilots and their families, I hope that you have the blessings I've had, and I look forward to doing my best for "Our Delta"

To quote "Hoot" in Black Hawk Down, Hey, "It's a whole new week, It's Monday!" I have a lot to be thankful for. I could have taken my Western Airlines class date in Feb 87' and been way up this list. I also would never have met my Super Premium, non-widebody wife here in MEM, never retired from a terrific ANG unit in same, missed out on a hundred Cayman layovers, like number of "illegal" overnights to almost a full night of sleep, stayed in my same house on a lake, raised two wonderful kids in a less stressful environment, and kept some semblance of my retirement. I've found what I was looking for, and it wasn't in an arbitrated seniority list. The hat and the Thurston Howell lll coat are probably my biggest concerns now. All the best to all DAL pilots and their families, I hope that you have the blessings I've had, and I look forward to doing my best for "Our Delta"

That was one of the best posts I have seen on this forum

To quote "Hoot" in Black Hawk Down, Hey, "It's a whole new week, It's Monday!" I have a lot to be thankful for. I could have taken my Western Airlines class date in Feb 87' and been way up this list. I also would never have met my Super Premium, non-widebody wife here in MEM, never retired from a terrific ANG unit in same, missed out on a hundred Cayman layovers, like number of "illegal" overnights to almost a full night of sleep, stayed in my same house on a lake, raised two wonderful kids in a less stressful environment, and kept some semblance of my retirement. I've found what I was looking for, and it wasn't in an arbitrated seniority list. The hat and the Thurston Howell lll coat are probably my biggest concerns now. All the best to all DAL pilots and their families, I hope that you have the blessings I've had, and I look forward to doing my best for "Our Delta"

Kingbird...You have an excellent perspective. This "Pre-merger" DAL guy sure hopes I get to fly with you now that it is "Our DAL". I agree with Slinky...one of the most useful posts I have seen on APC.

To quote "Hoot" in Black Hawk Down, Hey, "It's a whole new week, It's Monday!" I have a lot to be thankful for. I could have taken my Western Airlines class date in Feb 87' and been way up this list. I also would never have met my Super Premium, non-widebody wife here in MEM, never retired from a terrific ANG unit in same, missed out on a hundred Cayman layovers, like number of "illegal" overnights to almost a full night of sleep, stayed in my same house on a lake, raised two wonderful kids in a less stressful environment, and kept some semblance of my retirement. I've found what I was looking for, and it wasn't in an arbitrated seniority list. The hat and the Thurston Howell lll coat are probably my biggest concerns now. All the best to all DAL pilots and their families, I hope that you have the blessings I've had, and I look forward to doing my best for "Our Delta"

Here, here!!

So, former NWA guys, are Redtail's comments and attitude what all the red book green book stuff was like every day?

Let's move on guys. Welcome to the New Delta, my NWA brothers. Beers on me.

For real, Redtail, what did you lose?

Let's see...You are a whale Captain...you've got a 5 year fence...and a nice pay raise.

Where exactly did you get screwed?:confused:

...not to mention he (Redtail) got two free sets of airline pilot wings, 1 hat brass,1 military-style black hat, 1 US Navy-style double breasted jacket, and 2 pair of black worsted wool trousers. What else could you ask for?:D

Redtail is, uh, well, the Perfect example of the mantra I've heard for the last 22 years.

Let's see, i drive the 400...guy next to me drives a 767 and is 6 years junior. Yah....sounds really good. So they drop the 400 and I drop wayyy down...who needs the money anyway. Let's see...I am sitting there with wife and kids for vacation...and some junior boy gets on the plane ahead of us...6 years junior....oh really fine. Let's all just get along now can we.

Dude,
DAL does not use seniority numbers for non-reving - What are you talking about? :confused:

Scoop

Dude,
DAL does not use seniority numbers for non-reving - What are you talking about? :confused:

Scoop

If you can't complain about something real, complain about something made up!:rolleyes:

Redtail is, uh, well, the Perfect example of the mantra I've heard for the last 22 years.

Let's hope that Mantra dies a rapid death with this SLI deal and we can all move on. I'm ready to toss a cold one back with you guys. Cheers!

Can someone post a link (or directions) to the actual list? I cant find it on the NWA site, only a letter from the MEC?

Thanks!

Can someone post a link (or directions) to the actual list? I cant find it on the NWA site, only a letter from the MEC?

Thanks!

it's on the merger web site under seniority list arbitration tab. The link is the merger website.

it's on the merger web site under seniority list arbitration tab. The link is the merger website.

Supe..

Exactly where I looked, but I only saw the link to the MEC letter...I'll look again.

Thanks..

Duh, found it...thanks.

For real, Redtail, what did you lose?

Let's see...You are a whale Captain...you've got a 5 year fence...and a nice pay raise.

Where exactly did you get screwed?:confused:

For 23 years I have waited to get a widebldy seat(a330or 747). I was about a year away before the merger. Now I have 1400 DAL guys senior to me tht are junior to me date of hire and younger than me that get a shot before I do. Guess what that means, no A330 captain for years. Get that- for years. And the 767 does not fly to BKK, hkg,ams.lgw,paris,rome,etc. Not even close to being the same airplane. Hurray for the DAL guys that get to fly what I would have had. No way you would understand unless you were on this side of the fence. I am an 85 hire. I was hired at DAL but was already at NWA. 1985 DAL guys are in the 200s I am in the 2800 range. For me this is B.S. What exactly did you loose in this?????

Keenster

To quote "Hoot" in Black Hawk Down, Hey, "It's a whole new week, It's Monday!" I have a lot to be thankful for. I could have taken my Western Airlines class date in Feb 87' and been way up this list. I also would never have met my Super Premium, non-widebody wife here in MEM, never retired from a terrific ANG unit in same, missed out on a hundred Cayman layovers, like number of "illegal" overnights to almost a full night of sleep, stayed in my same house on a lake, raised two wonderful kids in a less stressful environment, and kept some semblance of my retirement. I've found what I was looking for, and it wasn't in an arbitrated seniority list. The hat and the Thurston Howell lll coat are probably my biggest concerns now. All the best to all DAL pilots and their families, I hope that you have the blessings I've had, and I look forward to doing my best for "Our Delta"


Guess you have already drank the coolaide. Good luck to you man.

Guess you have already drank the coolaide. Good luck to you man.
Keenster, I am with you, I am an 84 hire and have been a 747 captain for more than ten years. I wound up with 700 pilots ahead of me who were hired behind me AND are flying a lower paying seat and equipment even BEFORE we got our xerox on Letter19. These guys are mostly younger than me and flying a smaller and lower paying airlplane(767%&#) . While the middle of our seniority list i.e. 95 hires did OK(The Bartellians I suppose and the chosen children of targeting) Our demographic definitely took one for the Gipper. This list for the 83 to 87 hired guys was nothing short of a disaster very much an all lose no win deal since we really are 330 territory and it is not protected. Mark me in on the opt in.

Keenster, Thanks for the kind comments about kool aid and good luck. I don't need any luck, I've already made my own. Drowning in a sea of self pity is a hard way to go, good luck to you with it. This is a job. If that is the zenith of one's existence, then I suppose yesterday was the St. Valentines Day Massacre. I've been hearing about career expectations for 22 years, and I know that the tail end charlie red book pilots had a pile of them. A year later, pud knockers like myself had none. I dare say my seniority took the biggest hit of all, 3 years, 4 months and 1600 numbers. It happened. Delta Air Lines is not where I turn to for id and ego, but if dual truck gear and a hump up top are the path to enlightenment, then I suppose my expectations are just about right.

For 23 years I have waited to get a widebldy seat(a330or 747). I was about a year away before the merger. Now I have 1400 DAL guys senior to me tht are junior to me date of hire and younger than me that get a shot before I do. Guess what that means, no A330 captain for years. Get that- for years. And the 767 does not fly to BKK, hkg,ams.lgw,paris,rome,etc. Not even close to being the same airplane. Hurray for the DAL guys that get to fly what I would have had. No way you would understand unless you were on this side of the fence. I am an 85 hire. I was hired at DAL but was already at NWA. 1985 DAL guys are in the 200s I am in the 2800 range. For me this is B.S. What exactly did you loose in this?????

KeensterSince I am posting this from Paris, and I fly the 767, at least part of your post is not true. The 767 indeed flys to all the destinations highlited above. You retained relative seniority in this merger which was the MOST fair way (among many options) to integrate. You now have the opportunity to fly the unfenced 767ER as capt to diverse destinations. With a fence on the whale, you should be able to exercise your original seniority rights at NW for a period of 5 years, and you will have original NW seniority for the 787. DOH would have given you a huge windfall at the expense of DL pilots.

For 23 years I have waited to get a widebldy seat(a330or 747). I was about a year away before the merger. Now I have 1400 DAL guys senior to me tht are junior to me date of hire and younger than me that get a shot before I do. Guess what that means, no A330 captain for years. Get that- for years. And the 767 does not fly to BKK, hkg,ams.lgw,paris,rome,etc. Not even close to being the same airplane. Hurray for the DAL guys that get to fly what I would have had. No way you would understand unless you were on this side of the fence. I am an 85 hire. I was hired at DAL but was already at NWA. 1985 DAL guys are in the 200s I am in the 2800 range. For me this is B.S. What exactly did you loose in this?????

Keenster


You just added 111 more wide bodies to the 63 your previous company had ( and more are on the way we all hope) and also the 777s (with more types to be added later like the 330 and 744) have many double crew flights which increases the number of captain jobs (your former company did not do that). I know, I know... the 777 and 767 are not real wide bodies but the last time I flew one they have twin isles in the back and you sit real high off the ground. Your bidding power has not changed all that much if any. I wish you well.

Keenster, I don't know if this will help but let me say: 767ER Captain is the best and most fun job I ever had at DL.You go all over the world,Rome 1 trip maybe Maui the next trip.If I hadn't been worried about the future in the dark days I would have never left.If you are a commuter you can back trips up.When they start moving equipment to different bases you will get your shot at widebody Capt.Enjoy the ride. Finis

Disreagrd, sorry.

For 23 years I have waited to get a widebldy seat(a330or 747). I was about a year away before the merger. Now I have 1400 DAL guys senior to me tht are junior to me date of hire and younger than me that get a shot before I do. Guess what that means, no A330 captain for years. Get that- for years. And the 767 does not fly to BKK, hkg,ams.lgw,paris,rome,etc. Not even close to being the same airplane. Hurray for the DAL guys that get to fly what I would have had. No way you would understand unless you were on this side of the fence. I am an 85 hire. I was hired at DAL but was already at NWA. 1985 DAL guys are in the 200s I am in the 2800 range. For me this is B.S. What exactly did you loose in this?????

Keenster

I didn't "loose"(SIC) a thing. Repeat after me. DATE OF HIRE MEANS NOTHING. Read the arbitrator explanation if you cannot understand that. I bet you didn't really "lose" either - you're just being a drama queen.

How much did your percentage change? (Mine went UP just shy of 1%). How many more widebodies do you now have access to (Since the DAL 767's are unfenced)? Go take a look the results - it might be surprising. I know they are not super-premium wide-bodies or anything like that, but the last I checked they have twin aisles and three man crews.

Those cities you want to fly to will likely be served by 767-300ER's flown out of Seattle and LAX.

How about that nice payraise you received?

If you look at the facts, you see you did alright and it was fair, but it is more fun to tell everyone "Woe is me".

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2005/11/authentic_drama_queen.jpg

Finally...it looks like some NWA guys are beginning to figure it out...we got royally screwed. Delta is run by junior people…the senior guys grabbed their pension (the smart ones) and ran for the hills. I lost 6 years seniority…what a fricken rip off. The red-green show that has lasted all these years…is going to be reborn…just watch. And I can say this from experience-it’s not fun.

Finally...it looks like some NWA guys are beginning to figure it out...we got royally screwed. Delta is run by junior people…the senior guys grabbed their pension (the smart ones) and ran for the hills. I lost 6 years seniority…what a fricken rip off. The red-green show that has lasted all these years…is going to be reborn…just watch. And I can say this from experience-it’s not fun.

Your date of hire determined only your relative seniority at the company at which you were hired. It was good for bidding, nonreving, and determining your QOL at NW. The people you call junior at DL are no more junior than people in equivalent positions at NW. Younger maybe, no more junior.

Everyone is going to have some bone to pick on this. Many at DL who enjoy a good quality of life flying big equipment in warm and western bases will see themselves buried by former NW commuters. Capt upgrades in base pushed way out into the future. Commute to a small airplane in cold weather if you do want to upgrade. You've lost absolutely nothing in comparison. Overall, many more former NW pilots who faced years commuting to narrowbody equipment will have a great chance to fly bigger, higher paying equipment and possibly work closer to home.

You sound like one of the NW guys who fought for relative position in the Republic merger then perpetuated the red book/green book fiasco for 20 more years. Now merging with a carrier that has many more large, high paying airplanes than yours, you wanted date of hire. Hmmm. Time to move on.

All,

I started this thread not as flamebait but from the info I had before everything was published officially. All I had heard was that it was relative with no dynamics. If I had it over I would have retitled the thread "list is forthcoming" If any of you have read my previous posts I have passionately defended nwa pilots, who we are, what kind of group we are and what we bring to the table. But the list is done now. It is what it is. So, maybe we should kill this thread and move on.

If the title of the thread is dal won. Well, aren't we all dal pilots now?

For 23 years I have waited to get a widebldy seat(a330or 747). I was about a year away before the merger. Now I have 1400 DAL guys senior to me tht are junior to me date of hire and younger than me that get a shot before I do. Guess what that means, no A330 captain for years. Get that- for years. And the 767 does not fly to BKK, hkg,ams.lgw,paris,rome,etc. Not even close to being the same airplane. Hurray for the DAL guys that get to fly what I would have had. No way you would understand unless you were on this side of the fence. I am an 85 hire. I was hired at DAL but was already at NWA. 1985 DAL guys are in the 200s I am in the 2800 range. For me this is B.S. What exactly did you loose in this?????

Keenster

Keenster:
Don't let facts get in the way of your anger. (The 767 does in fact go to the above red destinations from 3 different bases.) Suggest you use it somewhere else, like kicking the dog. Also, look for the 767 to depart from a west coast city to an asian destination real soon.
Do some research before you look dumb, please.
I sure hope that you are in the minority at NW, as we don't need this kind of BS for trying to build harmony between the 2 groups.

For 23 years I have waited to get a widebldy seat(a330or 747). I was about a year away before the merger. Now I have 1400 DAL guys senior to me tht are junior to me date of hire and younger than me that get a shot before I do. Guess what that means, no A330 captain for years. Get that- for years. And the 767 does not fly to BKK, hkg,ams.lgw,paris,rome,etc. Not even close to being the same airplane. Hurray for the DAL guys that get to fly what I would have had. No way you would understand unless you were on this side of the fence. I am an 85 hire. I was hired at DAL but was already at NWA. 1985 DAL guys are in the 200s I am in the 2800 range. For me this is B.S. What exactly did you loose in this?????

Keenster

Your field of vision is so narrow it is beyond belief. The 76ER flies to far more diverse destinations than the 6 or so that the A33o does. But if you want to limit yourself to those few western Europe destinations, I will wager that there will be few if any DAL guys that will stand in your way for the bus. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. Oh, and as far as going to Asia on the ER... stand by...

I didn't "loose"(SIC) a thing. Repeat after me. DATE OF HIRE MEANS NOTHING. Read the arbitrator explanation if you cannot understand that. I bet you didn't really "lose" either - you're just being a drama queen.

How much did your percentage change? (Mine went UP just shy of 1%). How many more widebodies do you now have access to (Since the DAL 767's are unfenced)? Go take a look the results - it might be surprising. I know they are not super-premium wide-bodies or anything like that, but the last I checked they have twin aisles and three man crews.

Those cities you want to fly to will likely be served by 767-300ER's flown out of Seattle and LAX.

How about that nice payraise you received?

If you look at the facts, you see you did alright and it was fair, but it is more fun to tell everyone "Woe is me".

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2005/11/authentic_drama_queen.jpg


First of all I would have retired at NWA in the top 3% about 175 or so. Now I will retire in the top 13% or about number 1600 or so. Over my career that will cost me about $750,000. Also quality of life will be alot less because where you bid is what it is all about. We have already had 200 retirements since this started that now moves DAL guys infront of me up into possible 330 seats. DOH means alot to me it may mean nothing to you. If it means nothing then why is your list based on it at your stand alone company. Why don't we start hiring guys right into 777a seats.

As for the pay raise I have already had this dispute. My huge 8 dollar and hour results in about 150 take home a month extra. If you consider that a huge pay raise then we are all in trouble.

I lost 1% on the list but it is the percentage that i lost over the years. My percentage gets worse every year compared to my yearly percentage at stand alone NWA. Ending up at 13% vs 3% is huge. Does it bother you that I have took a pretty good hit. Not been a drama queen at all. I guess the facts don't set well with you.

To put it bluntly, The DAL guys have had 2 seniority windfalls. The first being when your senior guys bailed. Hey iam happy for you guys on this. If those guys were still around, 85 hires would not be in the 200s. Now those same 85 hires did well in this arbitration. If it had gone date of hire they would have had 1220 NWA guys in front of them. SO that particular group made out extremely well.

As for 767, I have no desire to do the flying that it does. It is a good airplane and it is a wide body, just not the plane for me. I went from holding the 330a in a year or so to probably not being able to hold it for 5-7 years. Then I am 60 and will be gone I hope>:eek:

So the fact that I can't hold the 330A seat now is a loss for me in money and quality of life. Had my advancement potential due to NWA retirements remained the same, I would not have a beef. I would have been happy where i am now if I still had the move up potential due to NWA retirements which are much greater over the next 5-7 years

My bet is that we are not going to be one big happy family. It's done and its a pretty good screw job for me. Every NWA guy around me is ****ed.

My bet is that we are not going to be one big happy family. It's done and its a pretty godd screw job for me. Every NWA guy around me is ****ed.

I lost 1.5% relative seniority. The NWA guys on either side of me gained 6%. They ain't too****ed.

As far as you statement about seniority windfall due to retirement, you are flat out wrong. There are few that would still be here because they would have had to retire anyway prior to the rule change. We benefitted from rapid expansion. Now, the 2 NWA guys on either side of me will benefit from that. I know you won't believe that, and frankly I don't care. But for you to wax so poetically over the A330, and your retirement number is myopic. Have a nice career.

Fact is that Bloch got it just about perfect and think that is why there were 273 NWA that got plug and play. Out of all of those early outs that DAL had only about 300 would still be here. The rest would have retired prior to Dec 13th last year when age 65 took effect.
Thus, the net gain by Delta was zero. Bloch completely leveled the field with the way he did the top of the list.

I lost 1.5% relative seniority. The NWA guys on either side of me gained 6%. They ain't too****ed.

As far as you statement about seniority windfall due to retirement, you are flat out wrong. There are few that would still be here because they would have had to retire anyway prior to the rule change. We benefitted from rapid expansion. Now, the 2 NWA guys on either side of me will benefit from that. I know you won't believe that, and frankly I don't care. But for you to wax so poetically over the A330, and your retirement number is myopic. Have a nice career.

I hope you are right about rapid expansion. But we may be in for rapid contraction if this economy does not change. A much bigger fish to worry about. I think that quite a few guys would still be here had they not bailed out early. tHE 210 guys at the top of you list range from 79-81 DOHs. I am sure there were more of them that left but hey I am glad for you guys on that.

First of all I would have retired at NWA in the top 3% about 175 or so. Now I will retire in the top 13% or about number 1600 or so. Over my career that will cost me about $750,000. Also quality of life will be alot less because where you bid is what it is all about. We have already had 200 retirements since this started that now moves DAL guys infront of me up into possible 330 seats. DOH means alot to me it may mean nothing to you. If it means nothing then why is your list based on it at your stand alone company. Why don't we start hiring guys right into 777a seats.

As for the pay raise I have already had this dispute. My huge 8 dollar and hour results in about 150 take home a month extra. If you consider that a huge pay raise then we are all in trouble.

I lost 1% on the list but it is the percentage that i lost over the years. My percentage gets worse every year compared to my yearly percentage at stand alone NWA. Ending up at 13% vs 3% is huge. Does it bother you that I have took a pretty good hit. Not been a drama queen at all. I guess the facts don't set well with you.

To put it bluntly, The DAL guys have had 2 seniority windfalls. The first being when your senior guys bailed. Hey iam happy for you guys on this. If those guys were still around, 85 hires would not be in the 200s. Now those same 85 hires did well in this arbitration. If it had gone date of hire they would have had 1220 NWA guys in front of them. SO that particular group made out extremely well.

As for 767, I have no desire to do the flying that it does. It is a good airplane and it is a wide body, just not the plane for me. I went from holding the 330a in a year or so to probably not being able to hold it for 5-7 years. Then I am 60 and will be gone I hope>:eek:

So the fact that I can't hold the 330A seat now is a loss for me in money and quality of life. Had my advancement potential due to NWA retirements remained the same, I would not have a beef. I would have been happy where i am now if I still had the move up potential due to NWA retirements which are much greater over the next 5-7 years

My bet is that we are not going to be one big happy family. It's done and its a pretty good screw job for me. Every NWA guy around me is ****ed.

8 bucks an hour additional should equate to 8,000 dollars a year, or an extra $666 a month, using standard pilot jungle math.

Remember that although your percentage is diluted as you finish your career, you must remember how many more airplanes you have gained access to. FACT: Delta has more wide-bodies than NWA (I'm talking twin-aisle 777's and 767's). And you just got access to all of the 767's after SOC.

I know you like the 330 - and there is a strong chance Delta will buy more 330's. RA has stated he likes the 330 better than the 767-300ER. It carries more people and cargo. And your dreamliner orders will likely be converted to 777LR's - and flown by NWA pilots until the fence expires. Those LR's will likely show up before the 787 will - since it (787) is late, overweight, and under fuel economy.

Are you a commuter? Are any of the new domiciles going to help you?

I was having fun with you with the drama queen - I love that picture. :D

Have you considered what would have happened to your 330 seat if they parked the 747 freighters and you guys were still stand-alone?

All I'm saying is I think your glass is half-full vs. half-empty.

Delta treats us pretty well. Management (right now) is the best we've had in a while.

Guys on Delta flightdecks rarely whine about getting screwed...we talk about sports, guns, hobbies, golf, family, cooking, motorcycles, computers, music - whatever guys figure out they are both into... we rarely beeyotch about work.

We go out together and drink beer and eat and visit local attractions.

We wear our uniforms with pride, glad we work for a company that is still in business, and do everything we can to save the Company a buck so that we will survive another day. We push old ladies in wheelchairs and sometimes do jobs that aren't ours to help out others...We hope for massive profits due to our actions so we can ask for (and get) pay restoration in a future contract and profit sharing next year.

Did NWA have a possible 6% profit sharing payout? Well, you've got that now. That could be an extra 6 grand plus to your paycheck if we do well next year.

It's not gonna be so bad for you.

I am sure there were more of them that left but hey I am glad for you guys on that.

You guys.. is US guys now. You benefit too. Especially since there are no fences (of any note). I'll buy ya a beer in Red Square sometime.

Oh, and watch this.. I'm gonna man up and say I was wrong about the 6%. The data I had was old, so the percentage that the NWA guys moved was only 3%. 3.05% to be exact.

Steve

All,

I started this thread not as flamebait but from the info I had before everything was published officially. All I had heard was that it was relative with no dynamics. If I had it over I would have retitled the thread "list is forthcoming" If any of you have read my previous posts I have passionately defended nwa pilots, who we are, what kind of group we are and what we bring to the table. But the list is done now. It is what it is. So, maybe we should kill this thread and move on.

If the title of the thread is dal won. Well, aren't we all dal pilots now?

You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.

We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.

You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.

It is not the "DAL Boys fault" that the the 747 is an old gas guzzerler and going away, nor is it our fault the the 787 is overweight, late and expensive. I guess we should all be glad the company is even considering buying some 777 in the near future.

You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.

We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.

You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.


Pre-merger NW 747-400 Capt ...$177/HR
Pre-merger DL 777 Capt... $191/HR
(Source APC)
Post merger DL 777/747-400 pay $191/HR
Jan 1, 2009...$200/HR
(Source JCBA paytables)

Yep...you're screwed. I'd quit now. You're going to have a heart attack if you let making more money get to you. BTW all of your "facts" from your quote are not correct. Delta management released the nugget that the 787 might not be ready and DL may alter some future deliveries the "Delta boys" were just repeating this real "fact".

"DOH & seniority is everything...everything." Are you for real? I'd like to think there is more than this job out there.

You may be right that there could be hard times coming and I agree about the "smoke and mirrors". I once heard and agree this profession is a "great job and a terrible career". Furloughs?...been there done that in the mid 90's.

Ya'll crack me up! ;) LOL

It's a done deal, nothing is going to change it. Time to move on and make the best off it. Look around the industry, it could be much worse.

Cheers fellas

Hi.

NWA Won:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/34414-nwa-won.html

cliff
YIP

Pre-merger NW 747-400 Capt ...$177/HR
Pre-merger DL 777 Capt... $191/HR
(Source APC)
Post merger DL 777/747-400 pay $191/HR
Jan 1, 2009...$200/HR
(Source JCBA paytables)

Yep...you're screwed. I'd quit now. You're going to have a heart attack if you let making more money get to you. BTW all of your "facts" from your quote are not correct. Delta management released the nugget that the 787 might not be ready and DL may alter some future deliveries the "Delta boys" were just repeating this real "fact".

"DOH & seniority is everything...everything." Are you for real? I'd like to think there is more than this job out there.

You may be right that there could be hard times coming and I agree about the "smoke and mirrors". I once heard and agree this profession is a "great job and a terrible career". Furloughs?...been there done that in the mid 90's.

Ya'll crack me up! ;) LOL

It's a done deal, nothing is going to change it. Time to move on and make the best off it. Look around the industry, it could be much worse.

Cheers fellas

Excellent posts.

Redtail...a three man impartial arbitration panel decided that Date of Hire was not applicable in this case.

We are all one now. You'll do just fine, RedTail. Are you a commuter? If so, where do you live? Because I'm hearing 747's out of Atlanta. But skysdlimit is right...you are screwed...despite your pay raise and the fences that protect your job, you are screwed, so you had best retire...or at least keep stressing about this and ruin your health - so that you can get out of my way so I can move up. :D

Redtail,
My point is not whether it is fair or not fair. Trust me, the idea that I am now a thousand numbers junior to somebody that was hired at Dal nine months after me is a little hard to digest. The arbitraitors in the end ruled that the Dal date of hire was of higher value and worth than the Nwa date of hire. Period. Do I like it? No, but it is what it is and I, for one, am not going to turn into a bitter person and dwell on it for the next twenty years. I'll stay on the 330 until some dal guy bumps me and then I'll go to msp on the 57 and fly anc or whatever. My point is there is no sense in spending the rest of our days being bitter about it.

In the long run who made out better? Well, time will tell. More info will come out as time passes about what happened behind the scenes. We knew last spring what Dal's attitude was towards us, and it didn't change obviously per their one and only proposal, and thus we worked behind the scenes with Cal which would have left Dal out of the Skyteam not Cal. Nwa had the written agreements with Klm and the goldenshare at Cal thus we would kept the alliance with Klm/airfrance, leaving Dal as standalone or with United. Would the seniority have worked better with Cal? These are questions that will never be answered and should no longer be asked. This is where we are and my suggestion is let's just move on.

You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.

We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.

You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.

Redtail-

I've seen a lot of opinions here, on the DALPA forum, and spoken with no less than 25 DL and NW pilots. Except for you, to a man, I get "we'll make it work", "let's wait and see", "we're gonna kick butt", and many shoulder shrugs. There's not a thing you or I can do about it now - the bell has been rung. I really haven't heard how bad anybody got "screwed", except from you.

Many of your comments thus far have been assumptions, and some of your statements of fact have been flat-out wrong.

Obviously, no one likes losing seniority in this business...I don't enjoy seeing my number over 3,300 higher than it was Sunday, but I realize DOH means nothing.

You now are a senior pilot at the largest and most powerful airline on the planet. IMHO, move on and enjoy the ride. Being an airline pilot doesn't define who you are - it's just what you do.

Peace:)
J

Redtail,
My point is not whether it is fair or not fair. Trust me, the idea that I am now a thousand numbers junior to somebody that was hired at Dal nine months after me is a little hard to digest. The arbitraitors in the end ruled that the Dal date of hire was of higher value and worth than the Nwa date of hire. Period. Do I like it? No, but it is what it is and I, for one, am not going to turn into a bitter person and dwell on it for the next twenty years. I'll stay on the 330 until some dal guy bumps me and then I'll go to msp on the 57 and fly anc or whatever. My point is there is no sense in spending the rest of our days being bitter about it.

In the long run who made out better? Well, time will tell. More info will come out as time passes about what happened behind the scenes. We knew last spring what Dal's attitude was towards us, and it didn't change obviously per their one and only proposal, and thus we worked behind the scenes with Cal which would have left Dal out of the Skyteam not Cal.
Nwa had the written agreements with Klm and the goldenshare at Cal thus we would kept the alliance with Klm/airfrance, leaving Dal as standalone or with United. Would the seniority have worked better with Cal? These are questions that will never be answered and should no longer be asked. This is where we are and my suggestion is let's just move on.

Opus,

For clarification.. just realize some of us pre-merger DAL pilots are behind pre-merger NWA pilots with a junior DOH and fell backwards in relative seniority (I believe mainly around the 50th percentile...my case anyway). So I guess my DOH wasn't exactly higher value than some pre-merger NWA. Generalized statements like yours are usually not totally true. This case is a good point. I am a late 1991 DAL hire behind many 1995 NWA hires. It is what it is. I personally am glad we merged with you guys and not CAL and definitely not LCC or UAL (I think there is some dysfunction going on with both those groups). NWA is probably the only major airline that the DOJ would have allowed a merger with due to overlap. I think I heard or read we only had 12 overlapping city pairs. I may be wrong...my wife tells me I'm wrong alot. However, we are now one monster of an global airline to contend with. I want to move on also but many on both sides see only their side.

BTW, do we get a mulligan? Lets do date of hire... I would be almost 300 numbers senior than I am now...hummm where do you suppose that number came from? :D

You titled the thread...becasue that what was on your heart and what you felt to be true.

We...NWA pilots have been screwed and when guys begin to figure it out...it will not be forgotten...in my opinion. I have lived the red-green show and it is hell and I think that attitude is coming your way. Those fences are only as good as long as the planes hang around. According to all of you Delta boys...787 is prob not going to show up...and the 400 is also on the way out...hello...and then wait for the downturn...you can't run the country with no money and smoke and mirrors. DOH & seniority is everything...everything.

You guys talk about realitive...I fly the 400 then I should be sitting with the same seniority number as your 777...since they are the same and pay the same right...but the Delta guys next to me are 6 years my junior and fly the 767/757. I was a 757 Captain...20 years ago.

If you were a Captain on the 757 20 years ago then you had to have at least 10 years with NWA. That would make you at least a '78 hire. There are a couple of guys flying the 757/767 with that seniority and do it for one reason ......because they are 1,2,3,4,5 on the airplane. They get what they want and don't want the international flying. So yes, the other DAL brethren are 777 Captains. You are like an old lady getting spooled up about the headline in a paper but failing to read the article.

sky,

Well said. I had not realized that any Dal pilot lost seniority in terms of date of hire. I guess my main point is that hey, it is what it is, I really hope we can move on. If any dal guys bid the 330 I hope we will have better things to discuss than 1800whahwhahwhah about the seniority.

Well at first look I lost 500 plus numbers to a Delta pilots 3 yrs my junior.and that was tough . But when I looked at the final list at age 65 my final number ends up the same as if I was still NWA,below number 50, all those delta guys are all retired and I virtually end up the same. So in the end for me it is not DAL won or NWA won, I won, because I was fortunate to be hired young have my retirment for now, and still have a Job.

sky,

Well said. I had not realized that any Dal pilot lost seniority in terms of date of hire. I guess my main point is that hey, it is what it is, I really hope we can move on. If any dal guys bid the 330 I hope we will have better things to discuss than 1800whahwhahwhah about the seniority.

I totally concur.

I promise not to bid the 330 unless it comes to ATL and I can hold senior Captain, then all bets are off.:D

Well got to go fly...

With a fence on the whale, you should be able to exercise your original seniority rights at NW for a period of 5 years, and you will have original NW seniority for the 787. DOH would have given you a huge windfall at the expense of DL pilots.

The five year fence would have helped if the a330 was fenced. The only guys that fence helps are the senior A330 captians that will be able to bid 747-400. It may be possible that DAL guys do not want to fly the 330 and not bid it so that it cycles down to me. Who knows Hope so. Also the age 65 thing cuts into to the effect of the 5 year fence in that approx 3 years of the fence guys are not hitting 65 yet. Hopefully those guys go earlier than 65. Yes I may be able to bid 767 capt and that may not be all bad. Ah yes, there could be a chance to fly 787 but my guess is that the 787 or the 777 will replace the 400 not moving anyone up. Hope I am really wrong about that. My loss is where I end up at the end which post merger is 13% vs premerger of 3.5%. That translates into a lot of bucks and huge quality of life. Its done, took a good hit, and time to move on. This used to be a great career and you would tell young folks that they should become airline pilots. Since 9/11 it has turned in to just a job, can't recommend it anymore. With this list my job seems to have gotten worse not better, but maybe I am wrong about that. Hopefully things will turn around. Good luck to us all and may the economy turn around.:confused:

keenster

The five year fence would have helped if the a330 was fenced. The only guys that fence helps are the senior A330 captians that will be able to bid 747-400. It may be possible that DAL guys do not want to fly the 330 and not bid it so that it cycles down to me. Who knows Hope so. Also the age 65 thing cuts into to the effect of the 5 year fence in that approx 3 years of the fence guys are not hitting 65 yet. Hopefully those guys go earlier than 65. Yes I may be able to bid 767 capt and that may not be all bad. Ah yes, there could be a chance to fly 787 but my guess is that the 787 or the 777 will replace the 400 not moving anyone up. Hope I am really wrong about that. My loss is where I end up at the end which post merger is 13% vs premerger of 3.5%. That translates into a lot of bucks and huge quality of life. Its done, took a good hit, and time to move on. This used to be a great career and you would tell young folks that they should become airline pilots. Since 9/11 it has turned in to just a job, can't recommend it anymore. With this list my job seems to have gotten worse not better, but maybe I am wrong about that. Hopefully things will turn around. Good luck to us all and may the economy turn around.:confused:

keenster

How are you able to calculate your pre and post merger percentages at retirement? If you have a seniority list like that or a spreadsheet or a .pdf, can you please share it? I am trying to do that as well, but I can't seem to get NWA retirements by year from anyone on the NWA side.

How are you able to calculate your pre and post merger percentages at retirement? If you have a seniority list like that or a spreadsheet or a .pdf, can you please share it? I am trying to do that as well, but I can't seem to get NWA retirements by year from anyone on the NWA side.

Pack,

I think anyone from NWA who is citing retirement percetages or numbers is getting it from that website (ezopenboard.com), where the creator has a program that runs the numbers for each individual pilot. It's not personal. We just don't have that information. At least I think we don't. :rolleyes:

New K Now

How are you able to calculate your pre and post merger percentages at retirement? If you have a seniority list like that or a spreadsheet or a .pdf, can you please share it? I am trying to do that as well, but I can't seem to get NWA retirements by year from anyone on the NWA side.
Yeah, ezopenboard is where we are getting it but that only shows retirements by year senior to you....not the full picture. From a spreadsheet of our last seniority list I can give the following numbers, but not by each year:

Total NWA Retirements(age 65) in total years from 12/12/2008:

1 year: 17
5 years: 192
10 years:1274
15 years: 2856
20 years: 4030
25 years: 4828

I am a 1996 hire. Almost exactly 1000 DAL pilots hired at DAL after I was hired at NWA are now senior to me. HOWEVER, only about 130 of those are also younger than me.That tells me that focusing on the number of DAL guys senior to you now vs. DOH does not tell the full story.

I initially gained 2% relative seniority, HOWEVER, 12 years from now I will have lost 8% relative seniority. So,that means down the road lots of DAL pilots will benefit from NWA attrition. HOWEVER, I end up at age 65 at the SAME relative seniority. Instead of retiring around #50 at NWA I will retire around #180 combined. I am not complaining at all. But this illustrates how different positions on the list and pilot age result in very different outcomes. No way to please everyone right? The fact that I hear pilots on BOTH sides griping about it tells me it was probably about right.

Heyas,

Guys, I tried to point this out during the arbitration hearings, but the loss of relative seniority would have happened whether the arbitrators used the NWA DOH proposal or what we got. No one would listen.

I ran my EZOP with both the DOH list and the arbitrated award, and I lost exactly the same amount of relative seniority 5,10, 15 and 20 years out as compared with the stand-alone NWA list. The only solace from that method was that I would have been some 600 numbers more senior than I am now.

The ONLY way this loss of relative seniority could have been prevented was with a dynamic list. Even if we had gotten the DOH list, you would have taken the same hit.

I feel Keensters pain, but there is nothing you can do about it. Lot's of careers these days have become jobs. My ex was a vet, and there was a huge retirement boom of older vets that started about 10 years ago. But instead of selling their practices individually, a couple corporations came in and started buying up practices left and right, and now they "set the market" for vet compensation.

These days, new vets come out of school expecting that sort of lowered compensation. Yet, they still ponied up a large amount of cash to go to vet school (240k or more in some cases), and will top out near 130-140k. Many are trust fund kids (or are 250K in debt), and do it part time as part of a two income family, so there is no support to get fees up. But when asked why they do it, they say "for the love of it".

Sound familiar to anyone?

Nu

The title of this thread is as stupid as the one that says NWA won.

Please KILL this thread.

Thank you...

Carl

Feel free to report threads/posts that violate TOS. Be sure to state your case as to the TOS violation.

I'll give you a hint, though. "stupid title" is hardly a good reason to lock a thread.

How are you able to calculate your pre and post merger percentages at retirement? If you have a seniority list like that or a spreadsheet or a .pdf, can you please share it? I am trying to do that as well, but I can't seem to get NWA retirements by year from anyone on the NWA side.
Go to easy open board and it gives you the retirements for NWA. Also has a seniority crystal ball for the new DAL list. Shows you where you end up based on your retirement date. Great site:https://www.ezopenboard.com/members/ Hope this helps.

Keenster

Go to easy open board and it gives you the retirements for NWA. Also has a seniority crystal ball for the new DAL list. Shows you where you end up based on your retirement date. Great site:https://www.ezopenboard.com/members/ Hope this helps.

Keenster

You have to have an NWA employee number to sign up there....no Delta guys allowed.

I got what I wanted...check this out (copied from the other thread I put up with this topic).

These are age 65 retirements for Delta - the only sure thing.

2008 0
2009 0
2010 0
2011 0
2012 2
2013 58
2014 71
2015 87
2016 131
2017 157
2018 217

That is the end of ten years - a total of 723 Delta age 65 retirements.

NWA retirements for the next 10 years:

2009 9
2010 8
2011 15
2012 15
2013 22
2014 124
2015 182
2016 199
2017 210
2018 231

That is 1,015 NWA retirements over the next ten years (From 2009-2018) vs. Delta's 723...So the difference between the two carriers (over ten years) is only 292 numbers.

After 2020 (12 years) a major shift occurs and DAL retirements far exceed NWA retirements for the rest of all of our careers.
2019
DAL 266
NWA 258
2020
DAL 334
NWA 288
2021
DAL 447
NWA 287

So one could argue that DAL guys benefit (albeit slightly - 292 numbers) for the first ten years since they share in the advancement from the NWA retirements...and then NWA guys benefit from year 12 onward from sharing in DAL's retirements (in comparison to the advancement each pilot would have had at their own stand-alone carrier).

I see 320 FOB's thread...he makes a great point - If a guy reaches 65 and he is junior to you...you don't move up. So the numbers I posted are only accurate for a young guy. Older guys (with guys junior to them that are older than them) will not realize the full benefit of those numbers.

It really does take a computer program (with customized results like you guys have access to) to see what it really means to an individual pilot...but generally speaking, what I have posted is accurate - negligible difference in attrition for the first ten years for all of us...and a nice bump in the numbers from year 12 onward (For those of you that have that many years left).

Remember also that it was only in the last three hiring cycles where guys older than about 34 were even hired.

That is 1,015 NWA retirements over the next ten years (From 2009-2018) vs. Delta's 723...So the difference between the two carriers (over ten years) is only 292 numbers.


PackTrip, I appreciate your efforts to post these numbers. I do. For someone who is so into numbers (as I am myself), it'd hurt a lot less if you stopped trying to trivialize the difference in retirements. It doesn't take a statistician to see that those retirement numbers when changed into percentages represent 20% of the premerger NWA list and only 10% of the premerger DAL list over the next 10 years. In other words NWA had double the attrition coming when looked at with percentages, which is the only accurate way to view these things. I won't even get into the medical & pension as motivation to retire at 60 debate but that would have accelerated the NWA side even more.

The reason DAL retirements start to exceed NWA's so much eventually is simply because there's hardly any NWA pilots left. To see a true comparision you'd have to change the numbers into a percentage of remaining premerger groups. You'll see 10-20 years from now it doesn't take many NWA retirements at all to match DALs attrition as a value of percentage of remaining pilots from each group.

I, and many other NWA guys, lost a TON of career progression and that caused me to lose sleep a few nights so far this week. Just to give you an idea I was slated to retire in the single digits, now I'm projected to retire around 300. I would have been a narrowbody CA in about 4 years now I'll be lucky if it's 10. Still not shabby but we can all agree it is a significant blow to career expectations, a blow that starts at SOC. I'm taking the advice of the wise old men on here and looking on the brightside and trying not to dwell on it, but do us a favor and stop pretending DAL guys had anywhere near the short term attrition NWA guys had. It's insulting to our intelligence, most of us have already crunched the numbers and know better.

Now here's to hoping we all benefit for our sacrifices and turn this new airline into the best airline in the world.

...but generally speaking, what I have posted is accurate - negligible difference in attrition for the first ten years for all of us...and a nice bump in the numbers from year 12 onward (For those of you that have that many years left).

Remember also that it was only in the last three hiring cycles where guys older than about 34 were even hired.

Pack,

Let me begin my response my saying that I am at peace with the senoirity list. I am not complaining, it is what it is, and there is nothing I could do about it even if it wasn't.

But, with that being said -- in a wierd, round-about way -- the reason why most NWA guys aren't really thrilled with the argument that DAL's retirements start to exceed NWA's in 10 to 12 years, is because alot if not most of the NWA guys are the ones who are going to be the ones leaving.

It's like you are telling them/us that things will get better for you after you are gone because there will be more movement coming from the Delta side after you are gone. :rolleyes:

When they hear that, I guarantee they say "great!" and make a face that looks like this => :cool:

It's kind of like telling the bachelor at his bachelor party that the strippers will be back to work the week after his wedding. (I have no idea where that one come from. I'd better go hug my wife.)

New K Now :)

PackTrip, I appreciate your efforts to post these numbers. I do. For someone who is so into numbers (as I am myself), it'd hurt a lot less if you stopped trying to trivialize the difference in retirements. It doesn't take a statistician to see that those retirement numbers when changed into percentages represent 20% of the premerger NWA list and only 10% of the premerger DAL list over the next 10 years. In other words NWA had double the attrition coming when looked at with percentages, which is the only accurate way to view these things. I won't even get into the medical & pension as motivation to retire at 60 debate but that would have accelerated the NWA side even more.

The reason DAL retirements start to exceed NWA's so much eventually is simply because there's hardly any NWA pilots left. To see a true comparision you'd have to change the numbers into a percentage of remaining premerger groups. You'll see 10-20 years from now it doesn't take many NWA retirements at all to match DALs attrition as a value of percentage of remaining pilots from each group.

I, and many other NWA guys, lost a TON of career progression and that caused me to lose sleep a few nights so far this week. Just to give you an idea I was slated to retire in the single digits, now I'm projected to retire around 300. I would have been a narrowbody CA in about 4 years now I'll be lucky if it's 10. Still not shabby but we can all agree it is a significant blow to career expectations, a blow that starts at SOC. I'm taking the advice of the wise old men on here and looking on the brightside and trying not to dwell on it, but do us a favor and stop pretending DAL guys had anywhere near the short term attrition NWA guys had. It's insulting to our intelligence, most of us have already crunched the numbers and know better.

Now here's to hoping we all benefit for our sacrifices and turn this new airline into the best airline in the world.

Good post. I would have retired premerger 290 range. Post merger I retire in 1260 range. Anyone that tries to tell me that the difference in those 2 numbers is made up for in size or something is crazy. To make it worse, we got no credit for the approx 250 NWA guys that have retired since this started. Had our current number used for integreation been adjusted for these 250 guys leaving it would have moved me up the combined list 643 numbers. That is hard to swallow, guys gone before the merger but getting the move up after list integration. Well now everyone moves up 250 when the list is redone. Just another huge loss in QOL and Bucks. No slam against the DAL guys, but you will never realize the losses on the NWA side because unless you live it you can't know it and that's not just SLI related but also huge things we lost with our contract going away. Enough beating the drum. Time to look forward.

keenster

Good post. I would have retired premerger 290 range. Post merger I retire in 1260 range. Anyone that tries to tell me that the difference in those 2 numbers is made up for in size or something is crazy. To make it worse, we got no credit for the approx 250 NWA guys that have retired since this started. Had our current number used for integreation been adjusted for these 250 guys leaving it would have moved me up the combined list 643 numbers. That is hard to swallow, guys gone before the merger but getting the move up after list integration. Well now everyone moves up 250 when the list is redone. Just another huge loss in QOL and Bucks. No slam against the DAL guys, but you will never realize the losses on the NWA side because unless you live it you can't know it and that's not just SLI related but also huge things we lost with our contract going away. Enough beating the drum. Time to look forward.

keenster

They only used pilots on the property on November 1 to build the list. I think NW only resequenced your list in July and January, so your number was the same as it was in July. I don't think they integrated in any retired pilots so you got credit for all that attrition.

But, with that being said -- in a wierd, round-about way -- the reason why most NWA guys aren't really thrilled with the argument that DAL's retirements start to exceed NWA's in 10 to 12 years, is because alot if not most of the NWA guys are the ones who are going to be the ones leaving.



New K Now :)[/quote]
New: I agree and sympathize with your position. The fate of the age-demographically identical 1985 hires from both airlines is the prime example. The most senior (Sept.) 1985 DL hire is slotted in at 409 on the combined list. The NW Sept.1985 hire is slotted in at 2892 on the combined list, a difference of 2483 positions between two identical hire dates and (statistically) identical ages. Though both retained almost their exact relative seniority percentage, (which is only fair) no doubt the DL pilot will enjoy somewhat increased opportunity for advancement (he already easily holds 777 capt.) in the next 10 years due to NW attrition, while the equivalent hire date NW pilot will suffer somewhat decreased opportunity (compared to stand-alone) based on the same (NW) attrition (he still could hold or will shortly be able to hold, in theory, 767ER WB capt. at DL)

Let me begin my response my saying that I am at peace with the senoirity list. I am not complaining, it is what it is, and there is nothing I could do about it even if it wasn't.


Didn't you say you actually did better than both proposals? Kind of easy to be at peace with the list when that happens.... ;)

Didn't you say you actually did better than both proposals? Kind of easy to be at peace with the list when that happens.... ;)

No. No. I said I didn't do as bad as most of my NWA counterparts. Which for me means that instead of having 1700+ DAL pilots who were hired after me be senior to me, I only have a few hundred. So, I'm still off a few hundred numbers from the DOH proposal.

It was our late '94 & early '95 hires did a little better if you go by DOH.

I won't even get into retirements. But, with that being said. I am at peace with the list. But, you have a point. If I had 1700+ made senior to me I might not be so concilliatory. Touche'. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

PackTrip, I appreciate your efforts to post these numbers. I do. For someone who is so into numbers (as I am myself), it'd hurt a lot less if you stopped trying to trivialize the difference in retirements. It doesn't take a statistician to see that those retirement numbers when changed into percentages represent 20% of the premerger NWA list and only 10% of the premerger DAL list over the next 10 years. In other words NWA had double the attrition coming when looked at with percentages, which is the only accurate way to view these things. I won't even get into the medical & pension as motivation to retire at 60 debate but that would have accelerated the NWA side even more.

The reason DAL retirements start to exceed NWA's so much eventually is simply because there's hardly any NWA pilots left. To see a true comparision you'd have to change the numbers into a percentage of remaining premerger groups. You'll see 10-20 years from now it doesn't take many NWA retirements at all to match DALs attrition as a value of percentage of remaining pilots from each group.

I, and many other NWA guys, lost a TON of career progression and that caused me to lose sleep a few nights so far this week. Just to give you an idea I was slated to retire in the single digits, now I'm projected to retire around 300. I would have been a narrowbody CA in about 4 years now I'll be lucky if it's 10. Still not shabby but we can all agree it is a significant blow to career expectations, a blow that starts at SOC. I'm taking the advice of the wise old men on here and looking on the brightside and trying not to dwell on it, but do us a favor and stop pretending DAL guys had anywhere near the short term attrition NWA guys had. It's insulting to our intelligence, most of us have already crunched the numbers and know better.

Now here's to hoping we all benefit for our sacrifices and turn this new airline into the best airline in the world.


Excellent post. Seriously. I assure you guys I am not trying to trivialize anything...I'm just trying to understand the impact of it all on all of us.

I think a lot of it has to do with the information you guys have. Example: On Dec 8th when the ISL came out, DAL pilots got a seniority list: Last name, seniority number, employee number.

You guys got that color coded jobber with all that plus date of hire, pre and post merger percentage, original seniority, and equipment.

For myself, all I have access to in the Delta system is my Sen # on the old (DAL standalone list) by year and the total number of age 65 retirements each year.

You guys have that easyboard with all the cool analysis of percentages. I agree, percentages are everything.

I full understand what you are saying...even if we had the same retirement numbers, that fact that you guys were a smaller carrier meant that you all would have moved up percentage wise much quicker as a stand alone...but then there were still the wild-cards: DC-9 future and 747 freighter future...

Anyway, no offense intended...I just like numbers and would love a nice fat spreadsheet with all sorts of cool data that I could play with...but in the end - it doesn't matter one bit: It is a done deal, my number is what it is, our negotiators on BOTH sides FAILED to reach an agreement, so we have a decision by a 3 man impartial panel that has set our fate for the rest of our careers.

I'm cool with it all and looking forward to hoisting up tall cool ones with you guys.

When the updated list comes out we will all be 300-350 numbers more senior but as with Nwa lately, except for last spring, we would have attrition without hiring. I really don't know how the numbers are going to work out before soc. I mean we're having retirements as we speak yet no hiring is taking place. I thought I understood that most of capacity reduction was going to be at the RJ level but I hope it is not going to be the case where 1500 Nwa guys leave but the airline becomes 1500 numbers smaller.

Opus,

I'm curious what seniority list you base the 300-350 numbers on. My understanding is the arbitrators used 1 Nov 08 seniority lists from both sides and integrated those numbers which would account for all retirements prior to 1 Nov. Do you think that 300-350 have retired since then? I'm just trying to get a handle on what to expect.

On the Delta side, we get an updated seniority list every month posted on the Delta net with in the first few days. Anybody have any idea when this will be the combined list? Thanks,

Denny

We only update on July 1 and January 1 ergo the list that was used was based on the July 1 numbers. We had a perp program, plus others just retired since July 1. Nwa is not going to apply the work rules until bid period 5 which should help their staffing of "300-400" pilot shortfall but we still have attrition going on right now without anybody being replaced. I just don't see how the numbers are going to work in the spring and summer.

Opus,

My guess would be that the retirements were already taken into account thru 1Nov. If not, I can see a definate advantage to the pre-merger Delta side and I'm sure your merger committee would have raised the BS flag on that. I'd lay strong odds that the lists were updated or it would not have been fair. If the arbitrators could not get a Nov 1 list from your committee, then to be fair, they should have used both July seniority lists for the integration.

Denny

Opus,

My guess would be that the retirements were already taken into account thru 1Nov. If not, I can see a definate advantage to the pre-merger Delta side and I'm sure your merger committee would have raised the BS flag on that. I'd lay strong odds that the lists were updated or it would not have been fair. If the arbitrators could not get a Nov 1 list from your committee, then to be fair, they should have used both July seniority lists for the integration.

Denny

Denny,

I pulled this from the Arbitrators Decision Document.

We have chosen, instead, to recognize the fleets as divided
simply into wide-body and narrow-body groupings, two for Captains, two for FOs.12 For
purposes of counting aircraft and staffing assumptions,13 thus creating ratios in each
category, we have selected a “snapshot” date of July 1, 2008.

I thought that meant that they used a list from each side based on that date. If that were correct, wouldn't that mean that pilots who retired AFTER July 1, 2008 are on the combined list?

I'm still trying to digest it all, and what's worse is I may not even be talking about what you guys are.:o I just thought I'd point it out.:D

Opus,

I'm curious what seniority list you base the 300-350 numbers on. My understanding is the arbitrators used 1 Nov 08 seniority lists from both sides and integrated those numbers which would account for all retirements prior to 1 Nov. Do you think that 300-350 have retired since then? I'm just trying to get a handle on what to expect.

On the Delta side, we get an updated seniority list every month posted on the Delta net with in the first few days. Anybody have any idea when this will be the combined list? Thanks,

Denny
My number for the list did not reflect the 200 perp retirements that happened. Maybe not all of them are gone yet. My merger number used was my same bid number that I got in Jul 08. So really around 250 guys have left since then. I don't think that the list reflects those guys gone. I would lke to know for sure. I think tht we lost positions to guys that were already retired.

keenster

Johnso29,

I just went back and found this footnote (16) under the arbitrators decision:

16 While we adopt the July date for purposes of Fleet count, we utilize the Seniority Lists of November 1,
2008, as representing the current pilot population.

That is copied and pasted from the award. This is why I was questioning whether the retirements had already been removed from the pre-merger NW list.

Denny

Heyas,

The fleet/staffing was taken from July 2008.

The July 2008 NWA SSL was used, minus the pilots who had retired before November. Thus your system seniority number will be the same, since the numbers were not updated, but if you go through the list, you will find the retired guys gone.

Nu

Thanks Nu! That would make sense. The retirees needed to be accounted for prior to list integration and that would do it.

Denny

Johnso29,

I just went back and found this footnote (16) under the arbitrators decision:

16 While we adopt the July date for purposes of Fleet count, we utilize the Seniority Lists of November 1,
2008, as representing the current pilot population.

That is copied and pasted from the award. This is why I was questioning whether the retirements had already been removed from the pre-merger NW list.

Denny

Good thing we have a top notch lawyer to decipher it all for us.:D I don't always understand all this stuff.:o

That's a top-notch lawyer with mad cow!!! Which means I can find it but not remember it or where I found it!!!!:D

You know what they call a bunch of lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?






A good start!!!!:D


For Carl.....................DennyCrane............... ..

That's a top-notch lawyer with mad cow!!! Which means I can find it but not remember it or where I found it!!!!

You know what they call a bunch of lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?






A good start!!!!:D


For Carl.....................DennyCrane............... ..

:D DennyCrane! :D

Carl