Airline Pilot Forums

I'm an Aug '88 DAL 767Capt.
- Premerge 22.18% Postmerge 21.79% #2710 on the list, ie a slight gain.

NWA guy just above me Jul '85 757Capt.
- Premerge 22.69% Postmerge 21.79% #2708 on the list, ie a slight gain.

The enlightening thing is this.

The proposed list from respective MEC's from the hearings.

- DAL proposal- my #2640. very close, only 70 difference
-NWA proposal- my #3684. not close, a difference of almost a thousand!

I think I got fortunate. I have heard of other guys (pre DAL and NWA) who lost a couple percent. As it always is in this profession, timing is everything!

Cog

Jul 2000 DAL - Premerger 81.35%
Postmerger 80.44%

I'm a 1991 hire and 75/76 senior F/O.

Prior to the new ISL I was roughly 49% and am now roughly 51% surrounded by NWA 1995 hires. Damn we should have gone date of hire!! :D

I'm a 1991 hire and 75/76 senior F/O.

Prior to the new ISL I was roughly 49% and am now roughly 51% surrounded by NWA 1995 hires. Damn we should have gone date of hire!! :D

I am one of those NWA '95 hires who can say I did, "ok." For some reason '94-'95 hires here got more of a retirement bump than the others. With those who were hired at the beginning of '95 doing better than they would have done if the arbitrator had gone DOH.

That being said, I think the rest of our list got the shaft. Especially our '98-'01 hires. It seems that they did not get the same projected retirement "bump." I know part of it is because of where the 274 "pulled out" retirements came from on the list relative to them, but why did some of them lose relative seniority? ? :confused:

I know it's all about luck, but if I were hired 1 year earlier I would have been mixed in with DAL '91 hires and 51% of the list; a year later would have out me in with DAL late '97 hires and 35% of the list. A difference of almost 2000 numbers.

So, I know I'm lucky, I just want to know why? Mathematicians please step up. :rolleyes:

Just wondering...


New K Now

Nov 96 hire. 50.7% on the DAL list premerger, 52.8% on the joint list.

I don't have too much problem with the list itself, though I feel I got shorted by 200-300 numbers. I do think the arbitrators dropped the ball on the fences. 5 years for the premium stuff is fine, I think there should have been at least a 3 year fence on everything else.

That said, there is nothing we can do about it now. I plan on tipping back a few tonight, then tomorrow I will forget about it and move on. Hopefully management can provide a stable, growing company for all of us and we can enjoy the rest of our careers in relative peace and quiet.

Nov 96 hire. 50.7% on the DAL list premerger, 52.8% on the joint list.

I don't have too much problem with the list itself, though I feel I got shorted by 200-300 numbers. I do think the arbitrators dropped the ball on the fences. 5 years for the premium stuff is fine, I think there should have been at least a 3 year fence on everything else.

That said, there is nothing we can do about it now. I plan on tipping back a few tonight, then tomorrow I will forget about it and move on. Hopefully management can provide a stable, growing company for all of us and we can enjoy the rest of our careers in relative peace and quiet.
Well, just consider that you are approx 1800 #'s senior to your NWA counterpart that was hired Nov 96. That's 15% ahead of a guy with the same DOH. I'd say you did pretty well.

Where's the actual LIST?? Looked on the NWA MEC site and saw nothing but the letter from the MEC, no list.

Thanks.

Cog! My Man, where ya been boy?

Well, like NewK I did ok as a '95 hire. I guess it's because we are in a Delta "dead zone" IE when you guys didn't hire for several years. I went from 43% on the NWA list to 46% on the ISL. Compared to the NWA DOH proposal I lost 85 numbers but compared to the Delta proposal I gained 824. So, guess I'm ok except I'm still physically older to the '97 Delta guy above me. I guess we'll see how the deomgraphics will work out, like we have argued about since April.

As I said in another post, I can live with this and move on. Mergers are never good for anyone but here we are. It is what it is.........now where is that D@mn hat?

Ferd

Well, just consider that you are approx 1800 #'s senior to your NWA counterpart that was hired Nov 96. That's 15% ahead of a guy with the same DOH. I'd say you did pretty well.


you still don't get it. DOH has nothing to do with how they merge lists. What did you bring to the table, that's all that matters. My counterpart hired at NWA in Nov 96 cannot hold the same equipment I can hold.

That said, the more I think about this list, I think it is pretty fair. Where I think the arbitrators dropped the ball is with the fences. They did the pull and plug because a stand alone NWA would have experienced more retirements.....in effect moving the NWA pilots relative position up. But while those retirements would happened over a few years, the lack of fences means they can exercise that seniority now.

But I will accept this and move on. I just hope the airline grows so no one on either side gets bumped from their seat. I expect if displacements start to happen is when we will see some ****ed off people.

Cog! My Man, where ya been boy?

Well, like NewK I did ok as a '95 hire. I guess it's because we are in a Delta "dead zone" IE when you guys didn't hire for several years. I went from 43% on the NWA list to 46% on the ISL. Compared to the NWA DOH proposal I lost 85 numbers but compared to the Delta proposal I gained 824. So, guess I'm ok except I'm still physically older to the '97 Delta guy above me. I guess we'll see how the deomgraphics will work out, like we have argued about since April.

As I said in another post, I can live with this and move on. Mergers are never good for anyone but here we are. It is what it is.........now where is that D@mn hat?

FerdAt home, on vacation, on APC or DALPA site, or at recurrent training! Have not turned a wheel in 5 weeks. That made recurrent a little sporting!

I did well on the list but there are segments of Delta guys, (91 and 96-97 hires) who lost 2-3% relative and actually did worse than DOH! Not sure how it happened but the disparity between some Delta guys loss/gain is significant. I think the real heartache though could be possible furloughs and the shuffling of a/c at SOC. I hope the language is tight concerning displacements and bump/flush because lots of that may be coming. Oh, and the whole 787 cnx scenario is looming... Hope we don't have to continue to pay Bloch and the boys...

Cog

I (1990 DAL hire) came out within .25% of where I was pre-merger.

Under the date of hire proposal I would have been almost 1,000 numbers lower.

I'm pleased with the result, but I'm not sure about the NWA pilots around me who "lost" just over three years.

It seems the people who post on APC are generally okay with the award, but that's a very small percentage of the total combined pilot group. I'm curious if there is any group that is very upset and thinking of a lawsuit?

you still don't get it. I don't?DOH has nothing to do with how they merge lists.Nothing? I'd say the arbitrators agreed with more DALPA position than NWALPA position, but they do not agree with your statement that DOH has nothing to do with it. Have you read the entire opinion? What did you bring to the table, that's all that matters. The arbitrators do not agree with that 100%. Wouldn't you say their opinion is all that matters?My counterpart hired at NWA in Nov 96 cannot hold the same equipment I can hold. Well, you didn't say what you are holding but from looking at the list I see that DAL 11/96 hires are holding MD88A, 737A, a few 767-400B, 767ER B, and 1 777B. Guess what. The same list shows 11/96 NWA hires holding 747B, 744B, 330B and DC9A. Is that a big enough difference to justify your 15% seniority premium?

Look, I'm not trying to pick any fights. I'm more than willing to take the decision and move on looking forward. I just don't see how you could feel even the least bit slighted by this outcome as you have claimed.

And I didn't even get into how, due to the 274 pull-n-plug being WAY below the actual upcoming attrition of NWA pilots, you will directly benefit from huge NWA retirements in the next 10 years. If you project the list into the future it is clear that DAL will hugely dominate future WB positions as a direct result of NWA retirements.

"Look, I'm not trying to pick any fights. I'm more than willing to take the decision and move on looking forward. I just don't see how you could feel even the least bit slighted by this outcome as you have claimed. "

I don't see how many NWA guys can feel slighted, but I guess it depends on your perspective. No matter how we feel, this list is here to stay.

I think we will hear a little venting from both sides for a couple of weeks, then everyone will move on. If displacements start, look out, then you will really hear some *****ing.

I don't see how many NWA guys can feel slighted, but I guess it depends on your perspective. No matter how we feel, this list is here to stay.

Well, if we truly lost 55% of our list in 10-15 yrs, I would be an A320 CA or higher. Now I can only hope to be a CA on anything. And so on...That being said, I accept the list. FWIW, you were curious how I could feel that way...there you go.

? for the DAL guys, do you have any projections of how many Ret. you will have in the next 10-15 yrs. I haven't seen...I am asking a serious ?, there is no underlying statement.

Well, if we truly lost 55% of our list in 10-15 yrs, I would be an A320 CA or higher. Now I can only hope to be a CA on anything. And so on...That being said, I accept the list. FWIW, you were curious how I could feel that way...there you go.

? for the DAL guys, do you have any projections of how many Ret. you will have in the next 10-15 yrs. I haven't seen...I am asking a serious ?, there is no underlying statement.
EZOpenboard has the info, albeit it only shows retirements for each side, in each year, that are senior to you.

I'm a NWA 96 hire. Based on that:

Next 10 years from today:

NWA Retirements(age 65): 1095
DAL Retirements (age 65): 664

Next 15 years from today:

NWA Retirements(age 65): 2466
DAL Retirements (age 65): 2639

So over the next 10 years NWA retirement runs about 1.6 NWA for every 1 DAL. Starting 10 years from now, for 5 years, DAL retires 1.4 for every 1 NWA. Obviously this assumes everyone flies to 65 and no NWA retires at 60.

? for the DAL guys, do you have any projections of how many Ret. you will have in the next 10-15 yrs. I haven't seen...I am asking a serious ?, there is no underlying statement.

as requested.

2008-2011 none
2012 2
2013 60
2014 75
2015 89
2016 136
2017 157
2018 218
2019 272
2020 348
2021 478
2022 567
2023 549

Oh, and the whole 787 cnx scenario is looming... Hope we don't have to continue to pay Bloch and the boys...

Cog

Welcome back!

Yup, this "it's a replacement" / "no it's new" thing was the basis of most of the red/green arbritrations. The good new is looks like Bloch may have written better than Roberts did.

Yeah, I'm on vacation when I get back from this Asia trip. Momma is gonna want me to take a break from APC too:eek:. I was getting the little barbs about always being on the computer, like she was doing anything.

Still need to call Mike S. We've swapped emails and I'll call him when I get home. Thanks again.

Ferd

Ferd,

Yeah, I can see that argument coming too. But at least it will only last for 5 years after SOC and not the 20 years of Roberts.

Being a glass half full kinda guy (thanks Mom!:D), maybe this award is written better and we wont have any major disputes......DOOH!!!! What was I thinking!!!!:D

Denny

I re-read the arbitrators decision and I'm confused by part of the fence wording. I'm hoping someone will clear this up for me.

Right now DAL has firm orders as well as options for 777 aircraft. I don't know the exact numbers, but IIRC those numbers are fairly significant.

As I understand the arbitrators decision, any 777 aircraft that arrive from those pre-merger orders and options will be staffed by pre-merger DAL pilots.

However, if DAL cancels their 787 orders and instead purchases 777 aircraft as replacement aircraft, those positions would be staffed by pre-merger NWA pilots.

The thing is, if DAL does cnx the 787 orders, how does one determine whether an aircraft is a replacement, or one that would have been an option that DAL decided to exercise?

The thing is, if DAL does cnx the 787 orders, how does one determine whether an aircraft is a replacement, or one that would have been an option that DAL decided to exercise?

That my man is the million dollar question and the groundwork for the first lawsuit.

The thing is, if DAL does cnx the 787 orders, how does one determine whether an aircraft is a replacement, or one that would have been an option that DAL decided to exercise?

Exactly. I would hope the company communicates what they are doing vs sitting back and watching the fireworks. Otherwise, get your checkbook:eek::D

Ferd

EZOpenboard has the info, albeit it only shows retirements for each side, in each year, that are senior to you.

I'm a NWA 96 hire. Based on that:

Next 10 years from today:

NWA Retirements(age 65): 1095
DAL Retirements (age 65): 664

Next 15 years from today:

NWA Retirements(age 65): 2466
DAL Retirements (age 65): 2639

So over the next 10 years NWA retirement runs about 1.6 NWA for every 1 DAL. Starting 10 years from now, for 5 years, DAL retires 1.4 for every 1 NWA. Obviously this assumes everyone flies to 65 and no NWA retires at 60.


I don't know where you received your numbers but from our company scheduled retirement list titled "PILOT'S PROJECTED RETIREMENT LIST AS OF 01JAN08" on DeltaNet the numbers are slightly different. It shows pre-merger Delta retirements from 2012 to 2018 (10 years from now) are 737 and through 2023 (15 years from now) are 2951. It could not have changed that much since Jan...I think I have moved maybe 3 or 4 numbers this year and I am in the middle of the pre-merger Delta seniority list.

Early 2008 DAL hire - 73N
Pre-merger 98.0%
Post-merger 97.9% SWEEEET!!!

I don't know where you received your numbers but from our company scheduled retirement list titled "PILOT'S PROJECTED RETIREMENT LIST AS OF 01JAN08" on DeltaNet the numbers are slightly different. It shows pre-merger Delta retirements from 2012 to 2018 (10 years from now) are 737 and through 2023 (15 years from now) are 2951. It could not have changed that much since Jan...I think I have moved maybe 3 or 4 numbers this year and I am in the middle of the pre-merger Delta seniority list.
My data is from a NW pilot who runs a third party website related to our open time. It includes a seniority crystal ball that was just updated to reflect the arbitrated list. Like I said in my original post, it only shows me numbers of retirements, in each year, of pilots that are senior to me. I was hired relatively young so there are no doubt some pilots junior to me, who will retire in those years, that are not showing up on my calculation.

Early 2008 DAL hire - 73N
Pre-merger 98.0%
Post-merger 97.9% SWEEEET!!!

Okay, you win! That's the best laugh I've had in a while. "Sweet"

well I lost 500 plus numbers to my 3yr later hired delta bros. that was tough to grasp but it is what it is. But, when I lokked at where I would be at retirement I ended up at aprox the same number as if I was still at NWA below 50!! and I'm a 84 hire NWA. So in the end it is not if DAL won or NWA lost, I still won because I was fortunate to be hired Young, and still have most of my retirement, I dont have to work my entire life at the new DELTA like my delta bros do. Cheers

737-800 CA LAX

I was 3881 at Delta. That put me at 52%. My new number is 6777 or 54%. Using the arbitrator's methodology I thing I got "slightly hosed."

Considering the task at hand I am very happy with the results. DOH is by far the best method of combining lists IF all other things be equal. We all know they were not. I am extreamly lucky to live where I want and fly as CA on the -800. I am not, however so high that I don't realize I most likely will be displaced again (I got displaced to 737 CA from 767-400 FO). So here's the $1M question: do I go get the 777 type or just fly the ER out of LA and be very senior? Flying Hawaii was S W E E T ...

BTW: On the night of the 8th we finished the bottle of rum and a 12 pack, then then party began!

Do you really like the double red eye trips out of LAX to the island? They are worth only about 11 and change too!

well I lost 500 plus numbers to my 3yr later hired delta bros. that was tough to grasp but it is what it is. But, when I lokked at where I would be at retirement I ended up at aprox the same number as if I was still at NWA below 50!! and I'm a 84 hire NWA. So in the end it is not if DAL won or NWA lost, I still won because I was fortunate to be hired Young, and still have most of my retirement, I dont have to work my entire life at the new DELTA like my delta bros do. Cheers
MOTOJOE, Where did you find that esp the age of the Delta guys hired 3 years after us (and flying smaller airplanes I might add)? I am right about where you are.How old are most of the 85-87 hired DAL pilots?

you can see it on ezopen it shows every yr till your own retirement. and its free

Motojoe,

Will that program work for any one on the new list or is it only former NW? If any one on the list can use it, could you tell me how to get it? Thanks,

Denny

Do you really like the double red eye trips out of LAX to the island? They are worth only about 11 and change too!

As opposed to the red eyes I'm flying now to lay over at the DoubleTree JFK? Yes. The trip I really liked was:

LAX - HNL
HNL - CVG
CVG - HNL
HNL - LAX

Paid 32hrs, had a relief pilot on 2 legs, and had 2 24 hr HNL layovers.

BD

Motojoe,

Will that program work for any one on the new list or is it only former NW? If any one on the list can use it, could you tell me how to get it? Thanks,

Denny

Heyas Denny,

Goto www.ezopenboard.com (http://www.ezopenboard.com) and send a note to the webmaster. He should be able to tell you. That part of his website is free.

The site is VERY cool for NWA guys, and has a number of fantastic options, not the least of which is emailing/texting you when certain types of trips become available.

I'm not sure it will survive the transition, but he's very sharp.

Nu

I just saw Steve last week. He is at school house instructing. All Dal guys go check out ezopenboard.com. It is a great site. One click to open time in any base or equipment, book jumpseats, see up to date seniority projections/retirements. It's a great site. Flight Ops is cool with it, I guess it will up to tech guys at Dal if they'll let transfer the site over.

There is a downside though, it's 3 bucks a month!

I just saw Steve last week. He is at school house instructing. All Dal guys go check out ezopenboard.com. It is a great site. One click to open time in any base or equipment, book jumpseats, see up to date seniority projections/retirements. It's a great site. Flight Ops is cool with it, I guess it will up to tech guys at Dal if they'll let transfer the site over.

There is a downside though, it's 3 bucks a month!

I am guessing in the short term ezopenboard will go away for reprogramming. I don't believe ATLAS or ACCESS will survive SOC. I believe we are all moving to eCrew or iCrew or whatever it is that the DL pilots use for Flight Ops stuff.

Thanks Nu!! I'll give it a shot.

Denny

I am guessing in the short term ezopenboard will go away for reprogramming. I don't believe ATLAS or ACCESS will survive SOC. I believe we are all moving to eCrew or iCrew or whatever it is that the DL pilots use for Flight Ops stuff.

e-crew is the java based interface with DBMS, but is going away.

i-crew is the new web based interface with DBMS. Much faster and non java! Works anywhere there is teh internets.

Navtech ClassBid is the PBS system, can be a little frustrating to access directly. There is a free program, EasyBid, which downloads the bid packs, lets you put in your conditions, and then uploads your bids. You do need to pay for the access, but it's just a few bucks a month. www.flightline.com (http://www.flightline.com) is the company. It's run by a Delta Captain and his brother.

As opposed to the red eyes I'm flying now to lay over at the DoubleTree JFK? Yes. The trip I really liked was:

LAX - HNL
HNL - CVG
CVG - HNL
HNL - LAX

Paid 32hrs, had a relief pilot on 2 legs, and had 2 24 hr HNL layovers.

BD

You wouldn't see that anymore. There are a couple 6 day Maui's with SLC layovers for the commuters but a boat load of 3 day 11 hour trips with an all-nighter for us less seniority endowed people. Nice layovers, as you know, but I walk around tired all month. On the good side, haven't been through ATL in months.

e-crew is the java based interface with DBMS, but is going away.

i-crew is the new web based interface with DBMS. Much faster and non java! Works anywhere there is teh internets.

Navtech ClassBid is the PBS system, can be a little frustrating to access directly. There is a free program, EasyBid, which downloads the bid packs, lets you put in your conditions, and then uploads your bids. You do need to pay for the access, but it's just a few bucks a month. www.flightline.com (http://www.flightline.com) is the company. It's run by a Delta Captain and his brother.

Heyas JDMJ,

Sounds like a weird setup. At NWA, we can access all of the computer systems (there's more than one) from home or the road via web interface (which contains java-based terminal emulators for accessing our scheduling/bidding mainframes). It is identical to the interface we have at work.

All of our bid packages, bid lists and other bidding tools (like the "pref-up" list, where you can see where you stand in bidding certain equipment) are in PDF and DOC form. We can also check loads, book jumpseats, check SOC weather products, file ASAP reports and access the flight ops pages from the same page. All company mail is now Email, also accessed at the same portal.

Our PBS bid entry program is called ATLASBid (ATLAS is the web portal), and is Java based. It works fine and allows all bidding at home as if you were at a work terminal. We used to have a stand alone version when we used the CLASS software (we use CARMEN now) where you used Compuserve as a portal, but it has been web-based for about 6-7 years now. The bidding structure changed a LITTLE bit when we moved from CLASS to CARMEN, but it was the same AWARD/AVOID methodology.

We can also access the employee system (health insurance, payroll, etc) unrestricted at home as well.

Most scheduling functions/bidding (except monthly schedule bidding) can also be done through the VRS system. It can be a little tedious listening the open time being read to you by a machine, but it can be a godsend if you don't have your computer with you. Jumpseats can also be listed via a different VRS.

We have a few third party applications that are strictly optional. As mentioned above, EZOPENBOARD is a very simple web based page that monitors open flying changes, and will email/text you if something meeting your conditions pops up. It also has a logbook function, jumpseat listing, and a pretty neat array of seniority analysis tools for position bidding (and home of the seniority "crystal ball" everyone talks about). It's a few dollars per month, adn

There are two third party apps for unattended booking of jumpseats. There is a simple calendar program that will import your schedule and make pretty calendars, and a more sophisticated one that does bid packet analysis and will help you plan your bid strategy. Prices vary.

It sounds like there could be some very nice competition to shake things up.

Nu

You wouldn't see that anymore. There are a couple 6 day Maui's with SLC layovers for the commuters but a boat load of 3 day 11 hour trips with an all-nighter for us less seniority endowed people. Nice layovers, as you know, but I walk around tired all month. On the good side, haven't been through ATL in months.

That's why I would bid reserve. All I can tell you is, to me, domestic 73N flying is a lot harder than the -400 was. Young flight attendants though :cool: