Airline Pilot Forums

Just got a mass email from our Contract Administrator and I find it to be contrary to the new kindler, gentler image DL management is trying to project.

I am hoping someone on the DL side can verify or dispel some of this info....

GRIEVANCES

We continue to receive many worksheets. Some
relate to NWA CBA provisions before DCC, some are
NWA CBA provisions in effect after DCC and others
are new DAL PWA provisions after DCC.

We have a lot of them, and not much is happening
with them.

While individual issues that come up seem able to be
resolved, we are being stiff-armed with delays on
most other outstanding cases. In this era of goodwill
and better relations, I have found things much more
difficult today than before DCC.

Northwest claims not to have authority to do
anything. DAL (both management and ALPA) have
demonstrated a lack of interest and action.


CONTRACT EDUCATION

Non-existent. We appear to be left on our own
to educate ourselves on our new contract.

This is the DAL PWA. We can all read the words
and make our own interpretations of what the
words mean but the DAL pilots need to educate
us on their agreement and how it actually works.

I have made repeated requests to the DAL pilots
to hold education meetings with our Contract
Admin LEC volunteers and staff. To date, the
DAL ALPA leadership has elected not to help us
with contract education.

--

There were some other NW only issues that we are also being stonewalled on, but the above are the issues that are related to the "new" DL.

If anyone can verify some of this info it would be appreciated.

my personal favorite is that the company is making all NWA pilots continue with the old NWA way of longevity increases. EVERYONE should move their longevity increases to the DAL way of DOH. For newhires we get off of probation at DOH but have to wait until "the first person in your class finished OE" before we increase to second year. :cool: Basically all nwa pilots are getting hosed out of 2 months sooner for longevity increases.

Everyone thinks its just the 190 newhires getting hosed on that but really everyone should be getting their longevity increased at DOH, except for those that are maxed out on longevity i suppose.

Basically all nwa pilots are getting hosed out of 2 months sooner for longevity increases.

You're getting "hosed"? That's a pretty interesting way of looking at it...

Ya know, until Jan 17th, when the new MEC is constituted, I wouldn't expect to see to much movement on separate union activities. Once all the committees are combined, that's when you will see movement.

You're getting "hosed"? That's a pretty interesting way of looking at it...

Uh-Oh! Let's not start this again.

Uh-Oh! Let's not start this again.

Not to worry, the good news is the "Debbie Downers" are fewer and fewer on here all the time. Most real smart guys see this is a good deal for ALL of us going forward.

The DDs on our side are running for things they think the Delta guys can't get to. We all have them, life is just too short to debate them:D

Ferd

You're getting "hosed"? That's a pretty interesting way of looking at it...

I am trying to use the new Delta lingo that i have heard so much of ;) :D

Bottom line is that the Delta way is for everyone to get longevity increases at DOH. The company is saying that the NWA pilots Shouldn't, even though that is whats in OUR contract now.

Just got a mass email from our Contract Administrator and I find it to be contrary to the new kindler, gentler image DL management is trying to project.

I am hoping someone on the DL side can verify or dispel some of this info....



Frustrated response follows.:mad: I can't believe that we're devolving into this junk again. I'll call our CA folks Monday and verify. For similar reasons that Spackler wrote about Sailingfun's jumpseat post, I don't believe one bit of this. It's even more reprehensible that it's an "official" ALPA produced publication. What's the point of this communication anyway?

You've been getting stuff from your MEC administration since the merger process started (then broke apart) last February. You've seen many of the Delta MEC's communications discussed here as well. I've got a simple question for you.

Whose communications have been more accurate?

Before you answer, you might want to review YouTube, your roadshows, and your MEC Chair's testimony during the seniority list integration.

Then review the record of what actually happened.

There is a pattern with communications here. I talked with one of the transition group reps about the Duty Rigs. He was in the room when Section 12 was negotiated, as was your CA chairman that put this piece out. The guy that was in the room told me that everybody, including Ken Watts, acknowledged the intent of placing certain changes into bid period 5, including the duty rigs. It was his view that the rigs argument put forward by Watts was a grab for more than was negotiated by ALPA. The former NWA negotiating team and DAL's team met with management on the rigs issue just a couple of weeks back. Surprise, surprise, the record did not reflect your CA chair's point of view.

It's not FNWA MEC against DAL MEC and Delta management. On areas in which the record reflects a joint point of view, changes have been made. Look at the land grab former NWA management tried with sick leave. The DAL negotiators backed the NWA negotiators completely, as the DAL system was the intent of the negotiations. DAL (and FNWA management) agreed. NWA management changed their policy, eliminating Dr.'s notes and the 75% cutback for second sick calls.

I think our new Delta pilots formerly known as NWA pilots are really going to like incorporating the way DALPA does business into their union process. While DALPA is far from perfect, personally I can't wait until we have a single MEC and no more of this "he said-she said" baloney.

Just got a mass email from our Contract Administrator and I find it to be contrary to the new kindler, gentler image DL management is trying to project.

We appear to be left on our own
to educate ourselves on our new contract.

DAL (both management and ALPA) have
demonstrated a lack of interest and action.

the DAL ALPA leadership has elected not to help us
with contract education.

To my new DAL (former NWA) brethren,

When you read posts such as these, you have a decision to make. Do you wish to align yourselves with those who foster hate and discontent within the pilot group by pitting one group against another and who apparently wish to turn the Red Book vs. Green Book mudslinging into RD vs FNWA mudslinging; or, do you wish to become part of a unified pilot group that will acknowledge the different paths from which we've come, but unify behind the single path we hope to forge in the years ahead? Do you wish to be two sub groups fighting one another, or the single largest pilot group in the world, collectively fighting to regain much of what's been lost since 9/11? The choice is yours, and it is a free choice each of us must make.

By distributing this mass email, your CA Chairman Ken Watts, and perhaps your entire MEC administration clearly identified which camp they choose to side with. Old habits die hard, I guess. Nosmo also appears to be leaning that way but I hope he'll reconsider. I know Ken, and I also know his DAL counterpart, and I can assure you, the new DAL ALPA will fight every bit as hard for each and every DAL pilot and will not consider anyone's background when determining to do the right thing. That's simply the way DAL ALPA operates.

The decision is yours.

Warmest regards,
PG

To my new DAL (former NWA) brethren,

When you read posts such as these, you have a decision to make. Do you wish to align yourselves with those who foster hate and discontent within the pilot group by pitting one group against another and who apparently wish to turn the Red Book vs. Green Book mudslinging into RD vs FNWA mudslinging

OK. Do we have that same decision to make when we get posts like this from Delta pilots?:

...In one case the Captain ranted and raved about how he got screwed by the Roberts award for 5 minutes before telling him he would not take him...

...A friend of mine at NWA told me to keep one thing in mind as the merger progresses. He said "NWA is a culture of hate". If you understand that much of what happens will make sense...

Carl

To all my new Delta brethren:

I've known Ken Watts for over 25 years. He is one incredibly tough animal when it comes to defending what's in a contract - and he rarely loses a grievance. He's the kind of guy you will want in the new DALPA. Other than Ken, I wouldn't recommend a single former NWALPA guy to the new union.

Ken's the best contract admin/grievance chair we've ever had and he almost never submits a claim for missed trips due to ALPA work. He works his ass off for the membership, then flies a full schedule.

Think what you want, but I hate to see a really good man derided.

Carl

OK. Do we have that same decision to make when we get posts like this from Delta pilots?:

Originally Posted by sailingfun http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mergers-acquisitions/34721-nwa-jumpseat-denial-post521134.html#post521134)
...In one case the Captain ranted and raved about how he got screwed by the Roberts award for 5 minutes before telling him he would not take him...

...A friend of mine at NWA told me to keep one thing in mind as the merger progresses. He said "NWA is a culture of hate". If you understand that much of what happens will make sense...

Carl

Absolutely. Sailingfun's post was equally unproductive, and I hope he is not choosing to go down the RD vs FNWA mudslinging road. I hope he'll refrain in the future.

PG

To all my new Delta brethren:

I've known Ken Watts for over 25 years. He is one incredibly tough animal when it comes to defending what's in a contract - and he rarely loses a grievance. He's the kind of guy you will want in the new DALPA. Other than Ken, I wouldn't recommend a single former NWALPA guy to the new union.

Ken's the best contract admin/grievance chair we've ever had and he almost never submits a claim for missed trips due to ALPA work. He works his ass off for the membership, then flies a full schedule.

Think what you want, but I hate to see a really good man derided.

Carl

He may be a great guy, but can you explain what beneficial outcome could possibly come from the mass mailing? It seems to be nothing more than airing dirty laundry, and totally counterproductive, assuming the goal is to work together in the future. We will have one MEC very soon, under one MEC Chairman. Let's keep the we vs them to a minimum.

PG

I agree. I've flown with Ken and he is a first rate guy! We all want him as our contract gru and the faster we can spool him up to speed the better for all of us.

Only a small section of the brief was put on here. The vast majority of the publication is his frustration with the old NWA just stalling and trying to run out the clock on issues we've been trying to get settled forever.

Once again, when you meet him you'll agree......we want Ken!

Ferd

He may be a great guy, but can you explain what beneficial outcome could possibly come from the mass mailing? It seems to be nothing more than airing dirty laundry, and totally counterproductive, assuming the goal is to work together in the future.

I think I can explain it. Ken is an extremely straight forward guy. You never have to worry about a back stab with him, because he does battle face to face. He has said that the only thing worse than living with a sub-standard contract is not defending that sub-standard contract which makes it even worse.

He honestly believes DALPA should spend more time helping to educate us on the fine points of the contract and the historical precedents at Delta. DALPA obviously does not see it that way. Ken has his opinion and he is calling NWA "management" and DALPA out on it. That's what he does when all other avenues fail. Sometimes there are no beneficial outcomes to clearly stating the facts as you see them to the entire membership. I respect that.

We will have one MEC very soon, under one MEC Chairman. Let's keep the we vs them to a minimum.

PG

To the extent that we can keep it to a minimum, that is a good thing. But we have a joint contract now. Having nearly all of the improvements happen at bid period 5 for NWA pilots only is insulting - given we have a joint contract. It's even more insulting to have no clarity whatsoever as to when bid period 5 will be. Anderson has a very short memory if he thinks NWA pilots will stand for this much longer.

Carl

Not sure how things went at NWA? Did your Union folks give you a class on the current contract? Did they give you CD's to "teach" you the contract?

Relax. As a new hire in 2001 and as a recall in 2007 at Delta I was never "educated" on the contract by DALPA. It was completely up to me to read the contract and become familiar with it. That's the way it is.

If anyone who strongly resembles a former NWA pilot thinks that DALPA is neglecting them; well, good news, Dalpa treats us all the same.:)

But we have a joint contract now. Having nearly all of the improvements happen at bid period 5 for NWA pilots only is insulting - given we have a joint contract. It's even more insulting to have no clarity whatsoever as to when bid period 5 will be. Anderson has a very short memory if he thinks NWA pilots will stand for this much longer.

Carl

Carl, got a question for you. I agree, we should all be all equal footing at this point in time.

That being said, if you guys are not happy with the bid period 5 thing (which btw I have no idea what that is). Why did you guys vote in favor of the Joint contract?

Not sure how things went at NWA? Did your Union folks give you a class on the current contract? Did they give you CD's to "teach" you the contract?

Relax. As a new hire in 2001 and as a recall in 2007 at Delta I was never "educated" on the contract by DALPA. It was completely up to me to read the contract and become familiar with it. That's the way it is.

If anyone who strongly resembles a former NWA pilot thinks that DALPA is neglecting them; well, good news, Dalpa treats us all the same.:)

Perhaps I didn't word it very well, but the "education" that is being requested by NWALPA is for the union officials. When you go into grievance hearings, past practice has a great deal to do with the outcome. Our guys have no idea what past practices were at Delta unless DALPA educates our contract admin guys.

The rank and file NWA guys have no problem with understanding the contract.

Carl

Carl, got a question for you. I agree, we should all be all equal footing at this point in time.

That being said, if you guys are not happy with the bid period 5 thing (which btw I have no idea what that is). Why did you guys vote in favor of the Joint contract?

First of all, bid period 5 is 4 bid periods after bid period 1. Bid period 1 will start when the transition group says it will start. They say they are working day and night trying to decide when bid period 1 will be. Most of the contract improvements in the joint contract will not be activated for NWA pilots until bid period 5. We were led to believe that bid period 1 would be concurrent with the SLI. We were stupid for not getting that in writing. Now DAL management is enjoying the extra productivity from NWA pilots while they drag their feet on defining when bid period 1 will occur.

However, even knowing what we know now, I can't say whether being cut out of the contract enhancements would have changed the vote on the NWA side. I'd just be guessing.

Carl

I agree Carl. I don't think it would have changed the vote much. There was no real up side to a no vote for us as the merger was going to happen anyway.

I just assumed......yes I know I know, that the pilots formerly known as NW would have everything the Delta pilots do at the implementation of the JC. Im sure I'd feel the same way if I was in your shoes.

You guys do get the 5% pay raise on Jan. 1, right?

Yes, they get what we get. The TFA and how it is being interpreted and implemented is what is the issue. (At least it sound like)

Heyas,

Just to follow up, KW is the man. If he says you stink, you'd better hit the showers with a family size bar of Dial.

Nu

He honestly believes DALPA should spend more time helping to educate us on the fine points of the contract and the historical precedents at Delta. DALPA obviously does not see it that way. Ken has his opinion and he is calling NWA "management" and DALPA out on it. That's what he does when all other avenues fail. Sometimes there are no beneficial outcomes to clearly stating the facts as you see them to the entire membership. I respect that.

Carl

Both MECs were fully focused over the last 6 months on preparing for arbitration. We've had a single list and time for these guys to focus on other things for what, a week and a half? Seemes pretty weird he'd be calling people out publicly via email already. Now if a negotiated settlement had been possible things may be different, not to mention we'd all be a little richer. Give these guys a chance to come up for air.

If that email had come from anyone other than Ken Watts, I wouldn't have been worried.

Ken is the one that got me involved in union work 19 years ago. When he was the Council 1 Chairman, he was pretty much the only Red Book (pre-1986 NW) LEC representative that stood up for the Green Book (pre 1986 Republic) pilots. He is a man of GREAT integrity.

Bottom line - if Ken says this is happening, then I believe him.

Also note that in the post that started this thread I was asking for verification of the info from the DL side. Apparently asking for verification is viewed as fearmongering by some of the SL folks.

Also note that in the post that started this thread I was asking for verification of the info from the DL side.

It's unlikely any of us would be able to verify the information contained in the letter. While I know many of our ALPA guys, I don't track their daily activities.

I do know that many of our guys have been putting in some long hours in connection with the merger. Maybe they need to spend a little time with their families during the holidays. I don't blame them.

They still have a couple of months to get your guys up to speed, true? I can imagine that Ken Watts is being barraged with questions he's unable to answer. That has to be frustrating, and his letter bears that out.

While I'm sure he's a good guy, what he perceives as foot-dragging may just be things moving at a slower pace than he'd prefer.

While I'm sure he's a good guy, what he perceives as foot-dragging may just be things moving at a slower pace than he'd prefer.

I tend to agree with this. While Ken may believe he's up to his rear in alligators, that may not be viewed as an emergency by others. I'm sure after the holidays the pace will pick up.

I also tend to believe that NWALPA will continue to get the "Heismann" from Bastain and Co. until there is a unified DALPA dealing with RA.

I tend to agree with this. While Ken may believe he's up to his rear in alligators, that may not be viewed as an emergency by others. I'm sure after the holidays the pace will pick up.

I would add that the likely reason his issues aren't viewed as an emergency by others, is those others have just as alligators of their own that they're beating back. No one is being slighted. There's just an incredible amount of work to do in the integration, and a limited number of people willing to step up to help.

PG

It's even more insulting to have no clarity whatsoever as to when bid period 5 will be. Anderson has a very short memory if he thinks NWA pilots will stand for this much longer.

Carl

Carl,
I found the following concise definition of bid period 5 on the Deltanet:

Bid Period Number Five. Henceforth the following definition will apply to Bid Period Number Five (BPN5) uniquely and exclusively: Bid Period Number Five will be the bid period following and directly adjacent to Bid Period Number Four (BPN4). BPN5 can be further defined as the bid period immediately prior and adjacent to Bid Period Number Six (BPN6). The definition of BPN5 consists wholly and exclusively of the above definition and absolutely no other definition can or may be applied to BPN5. Additionally all Bid Periods (BP) will be numbered sequentially by integers beginning with Bid Period Number one (BPN1) and followed sequentially by the immediate next larger integer and running consecutively. Since all BP’s are intractably related and determined wholly and exclusively by the BP known as BPN1 we will now turn to the issue of BPN1.

We have no idea when BPN1 will be.

Disclaimer: The above is a purely fictional account for entertainment purposes only. Nothing like falling back on old staff work training for being able to write a lot without saying anything.

Scoop :)

Carl,
I found the following concise definition of bid period 5 on the Deltanet:

Bid Period Number Five. Henceforth the following definition will apply to Bid Period Number Five (BPN5) uniquely and exclusively: Bid Period Number Five will be the bid period following and directly adjacent to Bid Period Number Four (BPN4). BPN5 can be further defined as the bid period immediately prior and adjacent to Bid Period Number Six (BPN6). The definition of BPN5 consists wholly and exclusively of the above definition and absolutely no other definition can or may be applied to BPN5. Additionally all Bid Periods (BP) will be numbered sequentially by integers beginning with Bid Period Number one (BPN1) and followed sequentially by the immediate next larger integer and running consecutively. Since all BP’s are intractably related and determined wholly and exclusively by the BP known as BPN1 we will now turn to the issue of BPN1.

We have no idea when BPN1 will be.

Disclaimer: The above is a purely fictional account for entertainment purposes only. Nothing like falling back on old staff work training for being able to write a lot without saying anything.

Scoop :)

Congratulations Scoop. You just made me laugh about something I was p!ssed about 5 minutes ago!

Carl

Merry Christmas!

Scoop

Heyas,

Just to follow up, KW is the man. If he says you stink, you'd better hit the showers with a family size bar of Dial.

Nu

I am sure Ken has worked hard for the NW pilots. I do question his methodology here. What purpose does he serve by sending this email? Is there any organization anywhere where this type of agitation serves any positive purpose? In fact is there any organization where this does not serve a negative purpose? My guess is that Ken has some other motive, more aligned with Ken's interests than any other.

So my assessment is that KW smells a little bit with this negative, self serving email, that serves no purpose but to try to divide our two groups.

I'll go on the record to defend Ken as well. If you knew the sentiment of a lot of the NWA pilots on our forum, you would see that a lot of them want answers and explanations on the SLI (yes, I know it's over) and more communication. So, maybe Ken is answering the call. He has always been a straight up kind of guy who goes out of his way to keep things calm. He is not a divider and on the forum he has defended Red as well as Green.

I'll go on the record to defend Ken as well. If you knew the sentiment of a lot of the NWA pilots on our forum, you would see that a lot of them want answers and explanations on the SLI (yes, I know it's over) and more communication. So, maybe Ken is answering the call. He has always been a straight up kind of guy who goes out of his way to keep things calm. He is not a divider and on the forum he has defended Red as well as Green.

I wonder what explanation your pilots need about the SLI. Either you negotiate a solution or you let strangers decide. Both pilot groups let strangers decide our SLI, and just as the aribtrators warned, the result would be worse than a negotiated settlement.

The final outcome seemed to be close to what the Delta pilots offered in mediation. Maybe there should have been more negotiations centered around that offer to provide a better solution to both sides. Some Delta pilots are upset too. Maybe there could never be a negotiated solution.

The final answer is that you should never be surprised when you put your fate in the hands of strangers. What other explanation is required?

What purpose does he serve by sending this email?

Ken is getting the facts out to us NWA guys. That is exactly what all union officials should do. Too many of them keep a lot of this stuff bottled up so they can keep their inside track to a management job intact. Ken is not one of those guys.

Is there any organization anywhere where this type of agitation serves any positive purpose?

If you call a union rep getting the facts out "agitation", then there's not much hope here. If the facts agitate people...so be it.

In fact is there any organization where this does not serve a negative purpose?

Yes, NWA. We've struck the company when it was necessary to keep them from achieving their goal of gutting our profession. It was damn painful, but necessary. DALPA should have tried it on one occasion in my opinion.

My guess is that Ken has some other motive, more aligned with Ken's interests than any other.

If you knew him, you would be embarrassed for yourself right now.

Carl

Merry Christmas!

Scoop

Merry Christmas to you as well Scoop!

Carl

My guess is that Ken has some other motive, more aligned with Ken's interests than any other.

I will be proud to introduce you to Ken. I'll bet after talking to him for even a short period time you will change your opinion. We ALL want this guy to continue doing union work for us.

Ferd

Bottom line - if Ken says this is happening, then I believe him.


I remember reading some of Kens' posts on the national forum this spring, after reading Stevens testimony in arbitration, it appears that most of what Ken posted at the time was incorrect. Bottom line- Ken needs to build some credibility with most Delta pilots, this mass e-mail won't help. He appears to be overwhelmed and looking for a boogey man to blame for not being up to speed.

I will be proud to introduce you to Ken. I'll bet after talking to him for even a short period time you will change your opinion. We ALL want this guy to continue doing union work for us.

Ferd

I'll bet they've already met.

I wonder what explanation your pilots need about the SLI. Either you negotiate a solution or you let strangers decide. Both pilot groups let strangers decide our SLI, and just as the aribtrators warned, the result would be worse than a negotiated settlement.

The final outcome seemed to be close to what the Delta pilots offered in mediation. Maybe there should have been more negotiations centered around that offer to provide a better solution to both sides. Some Delta pilots are upset too. Maybe there could never be a negotiated solution.

The final answer is that you should never be surprised when you put your fate in the hands of strangers. What other explanation is required?

I am sure some on both sides are asking their union reps to explain why they didn't get what they wanted to get. For the most part, the are challenging the reps, not the arbitrators decision. Let's just call it Tuesday morning (December 9th) quarterbacking. Maybe Ken is trying to refocus the groups on what really matters right now -- fair and equitable contract to be realized by both sides until SOC. Hopefully, we can put the SLI behind us and work to that as a goal until we get to that magical time called Bid Period 5 arrives. :rolleyes:

New K Now

Maybe Ken is trying to refocus the groups on what really matters right now

If that's his goal, he needs a new communications person. His email is full of jabs against the pre-merger DAL group, so it appears his REAL focus is to pit DAL against FNWA.

If that's his goal, he needs a new communications person. His email is full of jabs against the pre-merger DAL group, so it appears his REAL focus is to pit DAL against FNWA.

Ken's real focus is contract defense. If we don't defend our contract I'm really sure the company will not. From the moment the ink was dry on our contracts, NWA management led a full court press to try to re-define what the meaning of the word is...is. I don't know if DAL management is any different, but so far it doesn't look much different. The grievances are piling up and the only response from NWA or DAL management is the middle finger.

I am all for holding the company's feet to the fire on every single word of this contract. Every single word. That doesn't happen by magic or by wishing. It happens by legal action. I wish it wasn't the case, but it is.

Carl

You know, I finally got it. Arguing points with you guys is like "discussions" I had with my ex-wife. Apparently, no middle ground or leeway can be found unless I say, "You know what? You are absolutely right."

Well, you know what? You guys are absolutely right. Ken is wrong and just trying to pick a fight with you and he should get a communications person to do better.

-Nevermind that the NWA pilots on here are telling you that he is a straightforward guy.

-Nevermind that we are telling you that he is trying to brush back the calls from the rank and file NWA pilots who are complaining about the union being too secretive.

-Nevermind that the email I got was addressed to (Former) NWA pilots & it looked like a powerpoint presentation he put out for the NWA MEC, increasing the possibility that he only released it to the NWA pilots so they could see the thing in full light.

This thread a discussion is pretty much worthless. Have at it. If both sides always argue that they are right and make no attempt to understand the others point of view, you might as well talk to the walls. It's a shame that Civil War generals could have more respectful and thoughtful correspondence between each other than a group of professionals who are supposed to be on the same side. Good luck to us all because with these attitudes we will need it.

Your most humble and obedient servant,

New K Now

I'm going to preface this post with the fact that I've just gotten back from my favorite "watering hole" and watched the Seahawks dash the playoff hopes of the Brett Favre....re......re .....re and the NY Jets in the snow!!!!! I know, the Jets can still make it but it was good to see the Hawks win Holmgrens last home game!

I went to the Council 54 meeting on the 8th and Ken was there. I did not talk to him personally but he seems genuinely concerned about making sure that everyone knows the contract and we all enforce it to the best of our ability. He seemed very frustrated with the lack of communication between the pilot groups.

Who knows why this lack of communication is happening. There are usually to sides to every issue (my way and the wrong way!!!:D) and who knows what the problem is but it looks like we will have one MEC about the third week of next month and hopefully communication will pick up then or before.

Having listened to him at the ALPA meeting, I do hope he continues to be an advocate for the entire pilot group.

Denny

Ken is getting the facts out to us NWA guys. That is exactly what all union officials should do. Too many of them keep a lot of this stuff bottled up so they can keep their inside track to a management job intact. Ken is not one of those guys.

The facts as Ken sees them. Once again, the NWA MEC turns to publicly trashing the DAL MEC as their chief operating tactic.

If you call a union rep getting the facts out "agitation", then there's not much hope here. If the facts agitate people...so be it.

Interesting, that within hours of the ALPA President calling for an election for a joint MEC, the NWA MEC tries to stir the pot and claim that the DAL MEC is discriminating against the former NWA pilots. "Getting the facts out" or "protecting my union job", I am sure it is one or the other.

Yes, NWA. We've struck the company when it was necessary to keep them from achieving their goal of gutting our profession. It was damn painful, but necessary. DALPA should have tried it on one occasion in my opinion.

Thanks for the advice Carl. And yet it wasn't the DAL MEC Chairman acting like a fool on You Tube or the DAL MEC Chairman whining to Congress about how his contract is a B-Scale or the DAL MEC Chairman demanding that he had to have contract parity from day one. The NWA Merger Committee's own testimony was that DAL has a record over many years of higher pay rates than NWA. I am sure you guys can teach us all about how to get better contracts. We are just a bunch of hicks from the south.

If you knew him, you would be embarrassed for yourself right now.

I read Ken Watts on the National Forum claiming that:

The Delta MEC never contacted the NWA MEC during LOA 19 Negotiations.

Truth : Multiple testimony shows that there were numerous and repeated contacts and that the Delta MEC strove to negotiate for the NWA MEC even though they refused to cooperate.

The NWA Merger Committee never made a Date of Hire proposal in February.

Truth : They did make those proposals and based their arbitration case on Date of Hire

The NWA Merger Committee did not try to put 3000 Delta pilots in the bottom 4000 spots on the new list.

Truth : They made multiple proposals with that very outcome.

Ken Watts has never tried to apologize for his false statements, nor has he ever tried to correct the record. If he is not embarrassed about this, then there is little I can say about him that would embarrass me. Whatever his record is with the NWA pilots, his record with the DAL pilots is one of false statement after false statement, along with constantly trying to blame the shortcomings of the NWA MEC on the DAL MEC. Not a great record.

-Nevermind that the NWA pilots on here are telling you that he is a straightforward guy.

-Nevermind that we are telling you that he is trying to brush back the calls from the rank and file NWA pilots who are complaining about the union being too secretive.


New K Now

New,
From the way you guys are all defending him it sounds like Ken is indeed a stand-up guy. Good guys however, are capable of making mistakes also. Then again, maybe he is 100% correct but there might have been better ways to address it. Maybe taking everything into account this was strategically the best move - the bottom line is I think we are all making a moutain out of a mole hill. Im sure Ken had his reasons just as I am sure DALPA has their reasons for what they do.

Scoop

New,
From the way you guys are all defending him it sounds like Ken is indeed a stand-up guy. Good guys however, are capable of making mistakes also. Then again, maybe he is 100% correct but there might have been better ways to address it. Maybe taking everything into account this was strategically the best move - the bottom line is I think we are all making a moutain out of a mole hill. Im sure Ken had his reasons just as I am sure DALPA has their reasons for what they do.

Scoop

Scoop,

Sounds good. I'll meet you at the Appomattox Courthouse and we'll both keep our swords. :D

The facts as Ken sees them. Once again, the NWA MEC turns to publicly trashing the DAL MEC as their chief operating tactic.



Interesting, that within hours of the ALPA President calling for an election for a joint MEC, the NWA MEC tries to stir the pot and claim that the DAL MEC is discriminating against the former NWA pilots. "Getting the facts out" or "protecting my union job", I am sure it is one or the other.



Thanks for the advice Carl. And yet it wasn't the DAL MEC Chairman acting like a fool on You Tube or the DAL MEC Chairman whining to Congress about how his contract is a B-Scale or the DAL MEC Chairman demanding that he had to have contract parity from day one. The NWA Merger Committee's own testimony was that DAL has a record over many years of higher pay rates than NWA. I am sure you guys can teach us all about how to get better contracts. We are just a bunch of hicks from the south.



I read Ken Watts on the National Forum claiming that:

The Delta MEC never contacted the NWA MEC during LOA 19 Negotiations.

Truth : Multiple testimony shows that there were numerous and repeated contacts and that the Delta MEC strove to negotiate for the NWA MEC even though they refused to cooperate.

The NWA Merger Committee never made a Date of Hire proposal in February.

Truth : They did make those proposals and based their arbitration case on Date of Hire

The NWA Merger Committee did not try to put 3000 Delta pilots in the bottom 4000 spots on the new list.

Truth : They made multiple proposals with that very outcome.

Ken Watts has never tried to apologize for his false statements, nor has he ever tried to correct the record. If he is not embarrassed about this, then there is little I can say about him that would embarrass me. Whatever his record is with the NWA pilots, his record with the DAL pilots is one of false statement after false statement, along with constantly trying to blame the shortcomings of the NWA MEC on the DAL MEC. Not a great record.

Unbelievable.

Carl

Unbelievable.

Carl

Believe it.

Ken has a credibility problem and apparently is overwhelmed. I suggest he first try to repair his credibility after this debacle and his less than credible posts on the national forum. He might also consider working under DALPA's CA until he gets a grasp of the contract and can prove himself to be an effective CA for all the Delta pilots.

Overwhelmed? Debacle? Prove himself?

Wow, just a little over the top.

I'm done with this thread.

Overwhelmed? Debacle? Prove himself?

Wow, just a little over the top.

I'm done with this thread.

I wouldn't say that he is overwhelmed or that it's a debacle, but I do think he has to prove himself to the pre-merger DL pilots. Regardless of all the "He's a great guy" posts by you guys, I'd like to form my own opinion please. And that can only be accomplished by viewing his actions and statements.

Seems to me every one of you brushed off our assertations that Moak was really out to get the best deal for ALL of us and that he wasn't the Bogey Man. It's the same thing.

Also, this thread was started by a NWer. Was there really a need to even start it?

Unbelievable.

Carl,

Please accept this with the sincerity which it is posted. As you've seen, I am trying very hard to put the past behind us and move forward together. Having said that, which parts of Alfa's post do you say are "unbelievable"? All of the things he claims Ken stated on the National forum can be backed up by searching those forums. Ken said them. And the SLI transcripts show each of those to be a false statement. If Ken were just another line pilot stating his opinion, that would be one thing; but he's not. When he makes a definitive statement on a national forum, its presumed to be true because we all know his current ALPA position.

PG

Believe it.

Ken has a credibility problem and apparently is overwhelmed. I suggest he first try to repair his credibility after this debacle and his less than credible posts on the national forum. He might also consider working under DALPA's CA until he gets a grasp of the contract and can prove himself to be an effective CA for all the Delta pilots.

OK, here it is from someone other than Ken. Apparently the catalyst for this issue was Prater's call for a merged MEC by 19 Jan 2009. The following excerpt is only one of the 4 issues raised by the NWA MEC Officers in front of the Executive Council.

[THIS SPACE RESERVED FOR OBLIGATORY COMMENT ABOUT THE VERACITY OF PUBLICATIONS ISSUED BY NWA MEC] :rolleyes:

<Excerpted from NWA MEC Officer Presentation to ALPA Executive Council>

2.

Lack of Compliance with Paragraph F. of the JCBA by Delta Management

Paragraph F. and the negotiating history provided for an expedited process to resolve
the more than 450 outstanding NWA pilot grievances, pre-grievances and worksheets.
The process was to begin within 30 days of CBAID and be done quickly. This
process would have kept the NWA MEC in charge of resolving its outstanding issues
under the NWA contract. Despite our efforts to begin this process, Delta management
has ignored or refused our efforts. As a result of Delta management’s lack of
engagement, there have been no meetings to date to begin the process required by
Paragraph F. An early combination of the MECs would frustrate Paragraph F. and the
goal of the NWA MEC and committees to resolve their own outstanding grievances.

On a related matter, immediately after the corporate closure of the merger (DCC),
Delta management directed Northwest management to suspend operation of the
bimonthly meetings with ALPA to resolve pre-grievances. The first sessions since
DCC are now scheduled to resume on December 16-17 and 19, 2008. This has
contributed to the size of our dispute backlog. Delta management has also refused to
schedule arbitrations for 2009 for outstanding NWA cases as required by Paragraph
F. of the JCBA and NWA LOA 2000-03A. As a result, there is no method to move
forward on any of the more than 450 pilot grievances, pre-grievances and worksheets
which are not resolved by discussions. Delta also postponed, over our objection, an
arbitration on our largest dollar amount grievance which was scheduled to be
arbitrated on December 16-17, 2008.

The NWA MEC has sought an agreement with the DAL MEC to allow the merger of
the MECs despite the Company’s conduct with respect to NWA grievances. We have
proposed that the NWA MEC Contract Administration Committee structure remain in
place after the MEC merger for the purpose of resolving these cases, including
deciding which cases to settle (and for how much), withdraw or arbitrate. The DAL
MEC has not agreed to our proposal and instead seeks to have all NWA grievance
decisions be made by the Delta MEC structure.

OK, here it is from someone other than Ken. Apparently the catalyst for this issue was Prater's call for a merged MEC by 19 Jan 2009. The following excerpt is only one of the 4 issues raised by the NWA MEC Officers in front of the Executive Council.



To complete that loop, the Executive Council voted unanimously (including FNWA's/Delta's VP-Finance Randy Helling) voted to not delay the MEC merger. The MEC election has been called for January 17.

Ooo, I need to call Randy and ask him about that ....

To all my new Delta brethren:

I've known Ken Watts for over 25 years. He is one incredibly tough animal when it comes to defending what's in a contract - and he rarely loses a grievance. He's the kind of guy you will want in the new DALPA. Other than Ken, I wouldn't recommend a single former NWALPA guy to the new union.

Ken's the best contract admin/grievance chair we've ever had and he almost never submits a claim for missed trips due to ALPA work. He works his ass off for the membership, then flies a full schedule.

Think what you want, but I hate to see a really good man derided.

Carl

Well Carl.
I would love to believe you. But now, every time you write something I think of the following quote below posted by you.
I guess that makes you bizarro Carl.
Sorry, whatever you're selling, nobody's buying.


I'm publicly calling you out on this sailingfun. I think you are completely lying. I don't believe this incident ever happened and that you made it up completely because of your non-stop hatred of the NWA pilot group.

Every time any Captain HAS to deny a jumpseat to anyone, that captain has to fillout an Air Safety Report as to why the jumpseat was denied. I'll bet there hasn't been a single ASR for a jumpseat denial in the last year.

I would tell you to back up your claim sailingfun, but I know you can't. Just like most of your posts.
Is this your same imaginary friend that gives you those voices in your head? Even if this NWA person is real, and this person really said such a thing - why would you post it? What an utterly stupid thing to do.

If some Delta pinhead told me that Delta is a "culture of arrogance" or a "culture of bending over for management", etc., who would be stupid enough to post that? What good could it possibly do? You can't prove it, so why say something so divisive?

Oh I forgot, it's you sailingfun. I wouldn't/couldn't expect anything less.

Carl

Overwhelmed? Debacle? Prove himself?

Wow, just a little over the top.

I'm done with this thread.

I'm with you Ferd. I think I'm probably done with APC as well. I was wondering why this place was becoming sadly familiar, then your "arguing with the ex-wife" analogy brought it all home.

Carl

I'm with you Ferd. I think I'm probably done with APC as well. I was wondering why this place was becoming sadly familiar, then your "arguing with the ex-wife" analogy brought it all home.

Carl

Of course your arrogance of calling a Delta pilot a "pinhead" or accusing someone of having voices in his head has nothing to do with it, right?:rolleyes:
I say AMF! Stop back when you have less time.

I'm with you Ferd. I think I'm probably done with APC as well. I was wondering why this place was becoming sadly familiar, then your "arguing with the ex-wife" analogy brought it all home.

Carl

Carl,

I'll take the credit for the "arguing with the ex-wife" analogy, but I hope it doesn't dissuade you from this forum. "Some" people on here are very informative and it is a great place for information.

I think I have just come to the realization that it is almost impossible to change "other" peoples mind or even to find the middle ground on issues, which is why apparently why there are a lot of lawyers out there making a lot of money.

Hopefully the inability to compromise doesn't follow people into the cockpit (opps, flight deck), because it is the opposite of CRM. :(

New K Now

I think that you will find people doing this no matter what. Next year it is just going to be fighting in the union. Not union against union!

Carl,

I'll take the credit for the "arguing with the ex-wife" analogy, but I hope it doesn't dissuade you from this forum. "Some" people on here are very informative and it is a great place for information.

I think I have just come to the realization that it is almost impossible to change "other" peoples mind or even to find the middle ground on issues, which is why apparently why there are a lot of lawyers out there making a lot of money.

Hopefully the inability to compromise doesn't follow people into the cockpit (opps, flight deck), because it is the opposite of CRM. :(

New K Now

I appreciate the advice New, but here's what has been bugging me. I've been commuting on Delta a lot lately just to ride the jumpseat and to get to know the guys. Most all of them have been really solid guys. Riding the underground train in ATL the other day, I had a Delta captain recognize my uniform. He put his arm around me and shook me around, called me brother, and gave me a heartfelt welcome to Delta Airlines. He said, "together we're going to kick some butt."

Then you read these forums. You hear from people like sailingfun, alfaromeo and whatever Spaceman is calling himself these days, and you think there's just a ton of Delta guys who just cannot stand us. You know, dead pig airplanes, culture of hate, etc. I know most of these posts are from new kids who don't know jack yet, but it's just depressing. I get off a commute thinking that we're all going to be great buds, then these forums bum you out.

Oh well, enough venting. Merry Christmas NewK...I enjoy reading your posts and your humor.

Carl

Then you read these forums. You hear from people like sailingfun, alfaromeo and whatever Spaceman is calling himself these days, and you think there's just a ton of Delta guys who just cannot stand us. You know, dead pig airplanes, culture of hate, etc. I know most of these posts are from new kids who don't know jack yet, but it's just depressing. I get off a commute thinking that we're all going to be great buds, then these forums bum you out.


Carl,
The thing is that most of the guys at Delta don't have a clue that this forum even exists and can't even log on to the ALPA forum.

I appreciate the advice New, but here's what has been bugging me. I've been commuting on Delta a lot lately just to ride the jumpseat and to get to know the guys. Most all of them have been really solid guys. Riding the underground train in ATL the other day, I had a Delta captain recognize my uniform. He put his arm around me and shook me around, called me brother, and gave me a heartfelt welcome to Delta Airlines. He said, "together we're going to kick some butt."

Then you read these forums. You hear from people like sailingfun, alfaromeo and whatever Spaceman is calling himself these days, and you think there's just a ton of Delta guys who just cannot stand us. You know, dead pig airplanes, culture of hate, etc. I know most of these posts are from new kids who don't know jack yet, but it's just depressing. I get off a commute thinking that we're all going to be great buds, then these forums bum you out.

Oh well, enough venting. Merry Christmas NewK...I enjoy reading your posts and your humor.

Carl

Carl,

With the exception of the tool bag I flew with a few weeks ago, we really are great guys. Go with your experiences not the insinuations of guys that hide behind false names. I could think the same about NWA guys if all I got was from the forums, "burn the house down" types. But I realize the great majority are great guys including my good friends there/here.

Merry Christmas all!

Carl,
The thing is that most of the guys at Delta don't have a clue that this forum even exists and can't even log on to the ALPA forum.

You're probably right.

Carl

Carl,

With the exception of the tool bag I flew with a few weeks ago, we really are great guys. Go with your experiences not the insinuations of guys that hide behind false names. I could think the same about NWA guys if all I got was from the forums, "burn the house down" types. But I realize the great majority are great guys including my good friends there/here.

Merry Christmas all!

You're probably even righter. :D

Merry Christmas to you as well.

Carl

Carl,

I'm ready to buy the beer in Narita!!:D Wait a minute, your the 744 captain, you can buy the beer!!!:D Lookin' forward to meeting you there some day. Don't let the forums get you down, I just read them for entertainment value anyway!! Every once in a while there is a nugget of good information, but mostly I find it very entertaining! Just goes to show you, I guess I need to get a life! Where are Alan and Shirley when I need them!!:D

Merry Christmas!

DennyCrane........

Where are Alan and Shirley when I need them!!:D
Merry Christmas!
DennyCrane........

Alan is working on the wedding invitations.
Put down that scotch, get off the forum and go help him.

I appreciate the advice New, but here's what has been bugging me. I've been commuting on Delta a lot lately just to ride the jumpseat and to get to know the guys. Most all of them have been really solid guys. Riding the underground train in ATL the other day, I had a Delta captain recognize my uniform. He put his arm around me and shook me around, called me brother, and gave me a heartfelt welcome to Delta Airlines. He said, "together we're going to kick some butt."

Then you read these forums. You hear from people like sailingfun, alfaromeo and whatever Spaceman is calling himself these days, and you think there's just a ton of Delta guys who just cannot stand us. You know, dead pig airplanes, culture of hate, etc. I know most of these posts are from new kids who don't know jack yet, but it's just depressing. I get off a commute thinking that we're all going to be great buds, then these forums bum you out.

Oh well, enough venting. Merry Christmas NewK...I enjoy reading your posts and your humor.

Carl

Carl, I have no quarrel with the Northwest pilots as a group. Certainly you have to understand that I didn't agree with the position of your merger committee that claimed that Delta did not have any flying positions that were worth anything. I also have vehemently disagreed with your MEC that seems to continually attack the Delta pilots, especially when they have worked themselves into a hole.

I have said many times that I have great respect for the Northwest pilots and their flying heritage. You stood up for your interests in regards to the SLI proceedings and I stood up for mine, I don't see why that makes either of us a bad guy, I think this is the way every merger has gone since Orville merged with Wilbur.

Carl,

I'm ready to buy the beer in Narita!!:D Wait a minute, your the 744 captain, you can buy the beer!!!:D Lookin' forward to meeting you there some day. Don't let the forums get you down, I just read them for entertainment value anyway!! Every once in a while there is a nugget of good information, but mostly I find it very entertaining! Just goes to show you, I guess I need to get a life! Where are Alan and Shirley when I need them!!:D

Merry Christmas!

DennyCrane........

Merry Christmas to you Denny. You're a great dude...mad cow disease or not!

Carl

I appreciate the advice New, but here's what has been bugging me. I've been commuting on Delta a lot lately just to ride the jumpseat and to get to know the guys. Most all of them have been really solid guys. Riding the underground train in ATL the other day, I had a Delta captain recognize my uniform. He put his arm around me and shook me around, called me brother, and gave me a heartfelt welcome to Delta Airlines. He said, "together we're going to kick some butt."

Then you read these forums. You hear from people like sailingfun, alfaromeo and whatever Spaceman is calling himself these days, and you think there's just a ton of Delta guys who just cannot stand us. You know, dead pig airplanes, culture of hate, etc. I know most of these posts are from new kids who don't know jack yet, but it's just depressing. I get off a commute thinking that we're all going to be great buds, then these forums bum you out.

Oh well, enough venting. Merry Christmas NewK...I enjoy reading your posts and your humor.

Carl

Carl,

Go with the good feelings your got from your jumpseating experiences. I don't think this forum is represenative of the pilot groups. I think it's best to take everything on this board with a grain of salt, because for the longest time I thought Spaceman was letting his 8 year old post for him!! :D

If things get you down during this time of year, you should watch my favorite Christmas movie of all time, Scrooged -- with Bill Murray -- which is what I'm about to do for the hundredth time. Merry Christmas!!

New K Now

P.S. Keep posting dude!! I enjoy reading yours, too.

The DAL
MEC has not agreed to our proposal and instead seeks to have all NWA grievance decisions be made by the Delta MEC structure.

"The Delta MEC structure" would be the new joint Delta MEC. I think that it's a good idea to have all NWA and DAL grievance decisions made by the new joint MEC administration. One of the reasons we have an MEC is to handle grievances. It doesn't matter whether an outstanding grievance was from a former NWA pilot or a former DAL pilot, they should all be handled the same, by our new MEC. I'm disapointed that an important issue that ought to have first been brought before the new MEC for consideration is trotted out and argued via ziplines and e-mails before the new MEC even has a chance to deliberate on how best to procede. Unfortunately, I guess that's the way some folks are use to doing business.

I'm with you Ferd. I think I'm probably done with APC as well. I was wondering why this place was becoming sadly familiar, then your "arguing with the ex-wife" analogy brought it all home.

Carl

Done with APC - as in over? C'mon Carl, if it wasn't Thursday I would say somebody has a case of "The Mondays." Remember "The man who is worthwhile...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGpQej3o9eo&feature=related

:) Scoop

A little bird told me that the A330 has been penciled in on LAX-NRT as early as June 09. This will be over 12 hours once they get the flight time history established for the feds (A330 is operated at .82, optimum for the wing is ~.80)

I have been told but have not verified that the DAL MEC Chairman appoints most of the committee chairmen? At NWALPA they are elected by the MEC.

I hope the new MEC doesn't:

1. Give concessions on reconfiguring the crew bunk facility on the A330. (See existing language for flights between 8-12 hours).

2. Give a concession and let the company cram us in the Flight Attendant Rest Facility.

3. Staff the Crew Rest Facility Committee without an A330 pilot.

4. Put this on the back burner as an unimportant issue.

The plan is to take out the jumpseat and the rest seat in the existing bunk room and install two fixed bunks one on top of the other. Not much room or comfortable but legal.

The plan is to take out the jumpseat and the rest seat in the existing bunk room and install two fixed bunks one on top of the other. Not much room or comfortable but legal.


Violates the current JPWA for flights more than 8 but less than 12 hours.

I don't think they plan on operating the modified aircraft only on flights longer than 12 hours. This is why I think we are headed for a CONCESSION. Of course they may just operate it on routes that have a flight time of 8-12 hours and tell us to file a grievance, since our grievances are at a standstill.

Violates the current JPWA for flights more than 8 but less than 12 hours.

I don't think they plan on operating the modified aircraft only on flights longer than 12 hours. This is why I think we are headed for a CONCESSION. Of course they may just operate it on routes that have a flight time of 8-12 hours and tell us to file a grievance, since our grievances are at a standstill.
Just curious, how does having two beds in the bunkroom violate the JPWA for flights between 8 and 12 hrs.?

Just curious, how does having two beds in the bunkroom violate the JPWA for flights between 8 and 12 hrs.?


It doesn't, the removal of the rest seat and the jump seat violates the JPWA.

Can't have 2 bunks and a rest seat and a jump seat, the compartment is too small.

16.C.2.d. on the A-330 aircraft:
1) the relief seat will be contained in a separate compartment located just aft of the
cockpit door which contains:
a) one fold-down bunk bed,
b) a fold-down relief seat, and
c) a jumpseat,
2) and is provided with a lockable door to the compartment.

The plan is to take out the jumpseat and the rest seat in the existing bunk room and install two fixed bunks one on top of the other. Not much room or comfortable but legal.

A lot like being on a submarine, rack pan and all!

It doesn't, the removal of the rest seat and the jump seat violates the JPWA.

Can't have 2 bunks and a rest seat and a jump seat, the compartment is too small.

16.C.2.d. on the A-330 aircraft:
1) the relief seat will be contained in a separate compartment located just aft of the
cockpit door which contains:
a) one fold-down bunk bed,
b) a fold-down relief seat, and
c) a jumpseat,

2) and is provided with a lockable door to the compartment. Why 2 seats in the rest compartment? Is the JS in the rest compartment certified occupiable during T/O and landing? Horizontal racks are better than any business class seat, at least on the ER. (don't know about the new lie-flat BC seats) Two racks with no seats is better than forcing the 4th guy on >12hr flights to go to a BC seat (which he can't unless it is lie-flat) or "sleep with the F/As" (especially with their seniority on international!)(well, maybe you could on the layover if you've had enough to drink, and you are former Navy/Marine;)) I would imagine we'll give them (managmnt) relief for two racks in the existing compartment, but not for the other options. We currently have 6 or 7 ERs modified with 2 racks (and no seats) for >12hr ops. They are wonderful if you happen to get one going to Europe, much better than the reclining BC seat....thus my prejudice for anything horizontal. (I have avoided 4 pilot, >12hr trips, though) BTW, how is your rest seat on your 757s for >8hr. ops? Ours sucks....seat 1A...doesn't recline very far....half-a$$ed curtains w/ no privacy......

Why 2 seats in the rest compartment? Is the JS in the rest compartment certified occupiable during T/O and landing? Horizontal racks are better than any business class seat, at least on the ER. (don't know about the new lie-flat BC seats) Two racks with no seats is better than forcing the 4th guy on >12hr flights to go to a BC seat (which he can't unless it is lie-flat) or "sleep with the F/As" (especially with their seniority on international!)(well, maybe you could on the layover if you've had enough to drink, and you are former Navy/Marine;)) I would imagine we'll give them (managmnt) relief for two racks in the existing compartment, but not for the other options. We currently have 6 or 7 ERs modified with 2 racks (and no seats) for >12hr ops. They are wonderful if you happen to get one going to Europe, much better than the reclining BC seat....thus my prejudice for anything horizontal. (I have avoided 4 pilot, >12hr trips, though) BTW, how is your rest seat on your 757s for >8hr. ops? Ours sucks....seat 1A...doesn't recline very far....half-a$$ed curtains w/ no privacy......



JS is certified for TO and landing as long as the compartment door is latched open. The vertical back of the JS is physically attached to the underside of the bunk. So yes, it will lose us a usable jumpseat.

On the 747-400 there are two bunks stacked along with a rest seat in the compartment.

On the 747-400 and the A330 the BC seats are flat but not quite horizontal. I find them to be useless for sleep, but much better than a seat in steerage class.

As I mentioned in another thread, mamagement would have to remove:

a. Rest seat
b. Jump seat
c. PED power console (120V power plug identical to the biz class seats)

Things they would have to add:

Reading lights for the lower bunk. The current lights are all ceiling mounted/above the bunk including one on a gooseneck.

Oxygen mask for the lower bunk. The current oxygen setup is from a drop down panel in the ceiling (same as passenger cabin) and would be inaccessible from the lower bunk.

Air vent for lower bunk. Current configuration - one eyeball vent above the heater control on the wall opposite the bunk.

There is another piece of equipment against the aircraft skin where a second bunk would go, I don't know what it is, but it would also have to be removed.

Bag storage for a 4th pilot. There is currently enought room in the cockpit and the rest facility for three rollaboard suitcases. Sounds like the junior FO gets to stow his bag in biz class.

Sleeping in the FA bunks is a fatigue call waiting to happen. The FA schedule would have them parading in and out of the rest area in the middle of the pilot breaks.

There are other considerations but this post is already too long.

JS is certified for TO and landing as long as the compartment door is latched open. The vertical back of the JS is physically attached to the underside of the bunk. So yes, it will lose us a usable jumpseat.Sounds like the new 777LRs- rest compartment is certified for T/O and landing, not sure how many JSs are in it. The remaining 777ERs have compartments but not certified for t/o and ldg, nor are the 7 767ERs with rest compartments.

On the 747-400 and the A330 the BC seats are flat but not quite horizontal. I find them to be useless for sleep, but much better than a seat in steerage class.Yes, having used a designated BC rest seat so long I can safely say it doesn't compare to getting horizontal, even if it's only for the 21/2 to 3hr. break going to Europe.(from ATL) As for "steerage"-- you won't have to worry about that anymore on dead heading--- any ocean crossing (incl. Hawaii and South America) requires a BC seat per the contract.

As I mentioned in another thread, mamagement would have to remove:

a. Rest seat
b. Jump seat
c. PED power console (120V power plug identical to the biz class seats)


.
I don't know if we waived any requirements on the 767ERs with rest compartments, because we do a limited amount of >12hrs. With the addition of winglets, though, we might do more. (My whole interest is in trying to have the "best of both worlds", ie. having a horizontal rest facility on the nice 8-12hr. European flying.:rolleyes:...hmmm....) I would think it would be cheaper for the Co. to add an extra rack in the A330 vs. building more rest compartments for ERs. BTW, is the rest compartment a standard config. on both the A330-200 and -300?

I don't know if we waived any requirements on the 767ERs with rest compartments, because we do a limited amount of >12hrs. With the addition of winglets, though, we might do more. (My whole interest is in trying to have the "best of both worlds", ie. having a horizontal rest facility on the nice 8-12hr. European flying.:rolleyes:...hmmm....) I would think it would be cheaper for the Co. to add an extra rack in the A330 vs. building more rest compartments for ERs. BTW, is the rest compartment a standard config. on both the A330-200 and -300?

Yes the rest compartment is the same on the -200 and the -300.

The existing compartment on the A330 is very nice, it has a shaver outlet with a mirror, a 120V plug same as the BC seats, a reclining rest seat (not usable at the same time as the bunk). jumpseat, storage compartment for one rollaboard, temp control with eyeball vent and the bunk. It is easily the nicest rest compartment we have on any airplane at NW.

The main complaint is that you can hear most noises from the BC galley and the flight attendants like to slam their jumpseat and carts around. The FA JS at 1R is mounted on wall of the rest compartment.

The second complaint is you can hear the cockpit door slam shut if the other pilots/person exiting the flight deck are not considerate enough to shut it softly.

IMO the rest facility is much nicer than the ones we have on the 747-200 and 747-400.

Old rumor: NW is going to acquire 10 more A330s in the near future.

New Rumor: The ten A330s are already certified for higher gross weight. (Can put on enough fuel for >12hrs and have the fuel dump system installed)

Trivia: The current NW A330s are plumbed for fuel dump, but do not have the dump controls installed in the cockpit and do not have the dump nozzles installed on the trailing edge of the wing.

If NW is going to buy more A330s then they will probably do it quickly so they have time to configure them and retrain the crews for fuel dump.

SLC-NRT starts in June and rumor says LAX-NRT is June or July.