Airline Pilot Forums

...then why are so many relatives of professional pilots becoming professional pilots themselves?

This thread is not meant to irritate folks on the board. But this is a conundrum I am trying to figure out. I know many sons (sorry no daughters) of pilots, or nephews of pilots who are training to become pilots. I also know of several pilot offspring who were hired during the regional hiring boom.

Because of that sometimes I think I am not so crazy for hanging on in this career if there are so many 'legacy' pilots out there. Dad (or whoever) must not be dissuading the newer generation from flying.

By the way, I am not a 'legacy' pilot myself-but the first in the family tree.

Thoughts? :confused:

"...then why are so many relatives of professional pilots becoming professional pilots themselves?"

Maybe the answer is....it's not so bad?

You have to want to get into the biz for the right reasons. Money is the wrong reason. I was born for this and would have made it work one way or another. Others give it a try and fall by the wayside, for various reasons. It's really up the the individual and their personal situation and goals in life.

But, don't come to the "leaving the career" forum, expecting a balanced opinion on the career. Hope that makes sense. You're in the wrong place to get "balance"...

its not about the money for me its simply about not wanting to work period

its not about the money for me its simply about not wanting to work period

Being on reserve and working 5 or even 6 days in a row is work if you ask me. 16 hour days and 5 hours of sleep is work. Spending more time in a hotel than at home is work. Taxing for 6 hours and deicing the aircraft for the 5th time that day is work. The list can go on but you get the idea.
Thank you for appreciating all the hard work pilots are doing everyday. Next time you negotiate your pay, make sure to tell the management how easy this job is...

"...then why are so many relatives of professional pilots becoming professional pilots themselves?"

Maybe the answer is....it's not so bad?

You have to want to get into the biz for the right reasons. Money is the wrong reason. I was born for this and would have made it work one way or another. Others give it a try and fall by the wayside, for various reasons. It's really up the the individual and their personal situation and goals in life.

But, don't come to the "leaving the career" forum, expecting a balanced opinion on the career. Hope that makes sense. You're in the wrong place to get "balance"...

Seems like what I said caused more than a little umbridge from you, which is not what I intended to do.

The legacy pilots are decently educated on what piloting is like, and still they come into the business. Current pilots leaving are of course educated on what piloting is like and yet they leave. Seems like a paradox. Why is this?

Most other forums on the site are populated by the 'gung ho' trying to get into aviation types, so this seemed like the appropriate place to ask those getting out if being a pilot is indeed that bad. That's all.

People who are from aviation families usually have a much easier road than everyone else. Not only do they have a pre-made network but often their families own airplanes. Flight training is easy to come by and opportunities are already there for them. It is common for young people to follow in the family tradition even if it is not a good idea. My family use to be in commercial fishing. Everyone knew it was a dying profession yet the next generation kept on coming. It is not easy to break new trail Sometimes even a bad one is better than the unknown.

The hardships and challenges are real. Read Barry Schiffs article on his experiences as a legacy airline pilot and what happened to his kids that tried to follow in his professional foot steps.

Skyhigh

It is what it is. For some, like Sky it didnt work out or maybe better put, didnt live up to his expectations. For others, it has been a great life. For many of us, it has been a combination of the two. Frankly I believe if you do ANYTHING purely for the financial gain possible rarely will you find happiness. Certainly there must be a balance of the two... financial gain and well as personal satisfaction. Some ( more than just a few ) will never find this balance. Each person can decide what is "healthy" for them and their family. And without belaboring the point, there are LOTS of aviation flying jobs which are not airline related. You just have to find what works for you, and sometimes even then aviation might not be a fit for your life, but it also just might fit like a glove.

"...so this seemed like the appropriate place to ask those getting out if being a pilot is indeed that bad."

Just seems like a loaded question if balance is what you're looking for. I would guess that anyone getting out would say it's a rotten career. Makes perfect sense.

And no umbridge....whatever that means....

Just to build upon what de727ups and HercDriver130 have wrote:

Some people are happy with prison life. Most people would not be happy with being locked up in a cell but it works for a few. Though aviation is obviously not prison it is an unusual lifestyle that demands a high level of sacrifices. There are people who fit well into an aviation lifestyle however if you are looking for balance (for example; family life, home, financial stability) then you might be dissatisfied as a pilot.

People who come from aviation families are most likely better suited to the hardships that come with being a pilot. They are use to celebrating Christmas two weeks late. They don't mind living a disconnected life out of a suitcase or being jerked around daily by crew scheduling. Watching family events (baseball games, barbecues, birthdays) on video tape instead of actually being there is a normal and happy way to be vicariously involved with their families.

However not everyone will be able to be happy with that kind of life.

SkyHigh

Its just personal preference.

If you are single and/or a "lady's man", have very little ties to family, relatively low expenses, etc, this is a dream job.

If you have a family, wife, and want to build/preserve these, have fairly high overhead, then it is a lousy job.

Apparently its not so bad, because people are still signing up in droves to do this. The lines out all the doors will always be cattle call's of more applicants than positions.

Its just personal preference.

If you are single and/or a "lady's man", have very little ties to family, relatively low expenses, etc, this is a dream job.

If you have a family, wife, and want to build/preserve these, have fairly high overhead, then it is a lousy job.

Apparently its not so bad, because people are still signing up in droves to do this. The lines out all the doors will always be cattle call's of more applicants than positions.

I noticed that my career satisfaction plummeted once I got married and had kids. Hotels and mid-night flights are all fun and games until you have to leave a family behind. Not only is it sad to have to leave them but when you are single and come home after a red eye and its 10 o'clock in the morning you can put up your black out shades and get some rest.

As a family man you are likely to come home to a wife and kids at the door who are eager to get out and do stuff with you.

SkyHigh

It could be that the sons of pilots who chose to go into that profession did so because their dads did it in the 80's and 90's, before the profession took the nose dive that it did today?

...then why are so many relatives of professional pilots becoming professional pilots themselves?

This thread is not meant to irritate folks on the board. But this is a conundrum I am trying to figure out. I know many sons (sorry no daughters) of pilots, or nephews of pilots who are training to become pilots. I also know of several pilot offspring who were hired during the regional hiring boom.

Because of that sometimes I think I am not so crazy for hanging on in this career if there are so many 'legacy' pilots out there. Dad (or whoever) must not be dissuading the newer generation from flying.

By the way, I am not a 'legacy' pilot myself-but the first in the family tree.

Thoughts? :confused:

Probably several reasons...

They were always around aviation, and starting thinking about it from a young age.

It was more realistic for them since they had relatives who had done it. Many kids who might like to be pilots have no idea where to start.

They are used to a certain lifestyle...travel bennies and flexible time off.

Like someone else said, they probably have access to instructors, maybe airplanes, and a ready-made job serach network.

Bottom line it's easier for them than for an outsider. I bet some of them wouldn't be doing it if they had to scrounge to pay for training and make their own way in the business.

...then why are so many relatives of professional pilots becoming professional pilots themselves?


As the son of a legacy pilot, I'll try to answer this. My dad always told me "its a great profession but terrible career" I was told to go to college major in anything but aviation, get a "real" job, use that to pay for flight training, have no debt/save money, then if you still want to do this by all means have a go. So I'm 26, a part time CFI with no debt and a good full time job, just saving up and waiting for things to turn around so I too can pursue this career.

Why? many of Skys points are dead on. When you're born into the lifestyle you really never know anything else. I want this lifestyle because I'd rather not be home all the time. My mom has even told my dad that when he retires he better find something else to do or else he'll drive her crazy always being around. Some relationships just work better that way I guess, but I can see how many wouldn't. Growing up I would say my dad made it to about half of my games. Not bad I think, any successful business man who travels frequently probably couldn't do much better and xmas was celebrated on the 26th twice if I recall. My dad has his own part time business also, as will I when I make the jump because I know thats the only way I can afford regional fo pay, and I realize that developing a skillset outside of aviation is critical to peace of mind. So I guess with proper education in this career and planning it still is a worth while shot for some to take and sons of aviation families are probably in the best position to understand that. FWIW I have a brother and sister who want no part so it works both ways. and yes the already established aviation network, as sky mentioned, is a good benefit ;)

In other words, it's a family-unfriendly career prospect, a financial hardship to those not connected (non-legacies), requires secondary income to develop the ability to aspire to livable wage aka a defacto hobby job (nevermind 30-year amortized stable employment) , which further disadvantages those who are not set up to have ready access to free airplanes. All for the non-economic valuation of having the satisfaction of getting paid in takeoffs and landings. I could make the case such outcome could be attained flying a cessna without the economic sacrifice, but the point is noted.

The reality is that it [aviation] is the true poster child for opportunity cost and is not for everyone. I can tell you from my part if military aviation hadn't been available to me I would have never pursued 121 flying because I recognize all these opportunity costs. It amazes me how I continue to see peers so confidently assert their airline aspirations without much concern for all these intricacies, talk about having the opportunity of foresight and ****ing it away...

I dislike the fact GA is so unaffordable, I truly believe if GA was more accessible a lot more people would be discouraged from pursuing airline work and honestly make the commercial side of aviation a little more labor friendly. At any rate for my part, as someone who truly enjoys aviation and plans on making a livelihood on the military side of things, I didn't find the opportunity cost of progressing through an airline career worthwhile the hardships and shortcomings it bestows on the median pilot. Furthermore as someone who disavows the idea one should benchmark one's professional expectations on the statistical outliers (de727's of the world) I find the proof of such hardships as a palpable reality for the majority, as opposed to the "it's what you make it" crowd that aims to dismiss that very few are making it on the shoulders of the majority who is living the full cost of said opportunity costs. For that reason I feel the career is toxic, but yes it is up to the individual to make those determination so long as people GENUINELY acknowledge and recognize they are hedging their bets on the HOPE their outcome, personal love for aviation considered, is that of the statistical outlier and not the median. If the majority of people would base their career aspirations based on the outcome of the current median pilot and NOT the outlier, we wouldn't be having these discussions at all. That in itself says a lot about the profession.

As the son of a legacy pilot, I'll try to answer this. My dad always told me "its a great profession but terrible career" I was told to go to college major in anything but aviation, get a "real" job, use that to pay for flight training, have no debt/save money, then if you still want to do this by all means have a go. So I'm 26, a part time CFI with no debt and a good full time job, just saving up and waiting for things to turn around so I too can pursue this career.

I am in sort of the same situation. I am a 27-year old full-time lawyer and I started flying in September 2007. By the end of November 2008 I had both single and ME commercial ratings and no debt. Though I think that I have done my ratings rather quickly despite a relatively demanding full-time job, it still is frustrating to see others who started after me pass me with ratings and flight time. It wasn't until the economy really started to slow down that I realized how blessed I am to have my job, especially when I read on here about how everyone in aviation is struggling so much. I am now working on my initial instructor rating. Unfortunately that has been frustrating too because work has been busy and has not left much time for studying and flying. I would like to pursue my aviation career full-time at some point, but I will be glad that I have another good career and some savings to fall back on if I ever want to or need to. I would also like to get into aviation law on the side at some point, perhaps representing pilots that get violations.

Neither of my parents were pilots, but my mom is a 30+ year flight attendant and my sister was one for about 7 years before getting hired as a pilot for a regional. My mom was definitely gone a lot when we were young, but we still turned out okay. I think she was a better mom for it honestly. Obviously I won't know exactly what I am getting myself into until I just take the plunge and do it, but I think that an airline career does work out for some families, like mine.

I am in sort of the same situation. I am a 27-year old full-time lawyer and I started flying in September 2007. By the end of November 2008 I had both single and ME commercial ratings and no debt. Though I think that I have done my ratings rather quickly despite a relatively demanding full-time job, it still is frustrating to see others who started after me pass me with ratings and flight time. It wasn't until the economy really started to slow down that I realized how blessed I am to have my job, especially when I read on here about how everyone in aviation is struggling so much. I am now working on my initial instructor rating. Unfortunately that has been frustrating too because work has been busy and has not left much time for studying and flying. I would like to pursue my aviation career full-time at some point, but I will be glad that I have another good career and some savings to fall back on if I ever want to or need to. I would also like to get into aviation law on the side at some point, perhaps representing pilots that get violations.

Neither of my parents were pilots, but my mom is a 30+ year flight attendant and my sister was one for about 7 years before getting hired as a pilot for a regional. My mom was definitely gone a lot when we were young, but we still turned out okay. I think she was a better mom for it honestly. Obviously I won't know exactly what I am getting myself into until I just take the plunge and do it, but I think that an airline career does work out for some families, like mine.

You are doing it the right way! I say go for it once you have all of your quals. You have the law thing to fall back on. BTW, are you a Litigator? Or office Attorney? You mentioned you were very busy. Just curious because my wife practices commercial real estate law, and is now watching paint dry when she goes to work!

In other words, it's a family-unfriendly career prospect, a financial hardship to those not connected (non-legacies), requires secondary income to develop the ability to aspire to livable wage aka a defacto hobby job (nevermind 30-year amortized stable employment) , which further disadvantages those who are not set up to have ready access to free airplanes. All for the non-economic valuation of having the satisfaction of getting paid in takeoffs and landings. I could make the case such outcome could be attained flying a cessna without the economic sacrifice, but the point is noted.

The reality is that it [aviation] is the true poster child for opportunity cost and is not for everyone. I can tell you from my part if military aviation hadn't been available to me I would have never pursued 121 flying because I recognize all these opportunity costs. It amazes me how I continue to see peers so confidently assert their airline aspirations without much concern for all these intricacies, talk about having the opportunity of foresight and ****ing it away...

I dislike the fact GA is so unaffordable, I truly believe if GA was more accessible a lot more people would be discouraged from pursuing airline work and honestly make the commercial side of aviation a little more labor friendly. At any rate for my part, as someone who truly enjoys aviation and plans on making a livelihood on the military side of things, I didn't find the opportunity cost of progressing through an airline career worthwhile the hardships and shortcomings it bestows on the median pilot. Furthermore as someone who disavows the idea one should benchmark one's professional expectations on the statistical outliers (de727's of the world) I find the proof of such hardships as a palpable reality for the majority, as opposed to the "it's what you make it" crowd that aims to dismiss that very few are making it on the shoulders of the majority who is living the full cost of said opportunity costs. For that reason I feel the career is toxic, but yes it is up to the individual to make those determination so long as people GENUINELY acknowledge and recognize they are hedging their bets on the HOPE their outcome, personal love for aviation considered, is that of the statistical outlier and not the median. If the majority of people would base their career aspirations based on the outcome of the current median pilot and NOT the outlier, we wouldn't be having these discussions at all. That in itself says a lot about the profession.

Seems like you also have an excellent fall back of being a writer if the military thing doens't work out. :cool:

You are doing it the right way! I say go for it once you have all of your quals. You have the law thing to fall back on. BTW, are you a Litigator? Or office Attorney? You mentioned you were very busy. Just curious because my wife practices commercial real estate law, and is now watching paint dry when she goes to work!

I actually do business law, specifically mergers and acquisitions, but there is not a whole lot of that going on right now (except for the airlines of course!). Last year was very slow which allowed me to have more personal time to pursue my ratings. January is usually our "dead" month because everyone tries to get their deals done by year end and then takes a breath in the new year. This January, however, we have been very busy. I was hoping to make a lot of progress on my CFII (which I am doing as my initial) this month, but at the same time I'm grateful that it is busy because I feel like I have a little more job security. Though, I still get a little nervous every time my boss sits down in my office, especially if he closes the door for some reason, or if he asks me to come see him in his office. I think, omg, this is it! I have also had to take work from other departments in order to keep busy, so I'm lucky to be at a firm that is diversified! Some of our departments are slow (like coporate and real estate), but others are very busy (litigation and bankrupcty).

Furthermore as someone who disavows the idea one should benchmark one's professional expectations on the statistical outliers (de727's of the world)


This comment peaked my interest so I ran a spreadsheet. The assumptions I utilized are as follows and are not weighted avg's.
Legacy = 13yr capt's and 5yr fo's
Major = 10yr capt's and 4yr fo's
(as APC defines a major & a regional not the way pilots define it)
Regional = 7yr capt's and 3yr fo's
All based on 85hr credit/month.
Enjoy:)
Legacy
Capt $169,320.00 FO $98,502.86
AVG $133,911.43
Major
Capt $112,136.25 FO $53,486.25
AVG $82,811.25
Cargo
Regional
Capt $60,824.21 FO $30,940.00
AVG $45,882.11

Median 121 pax pilot = $87,534ish

It should be noted that is the median pay amongst a sharp/educated/highly skilled crowd.

I'll respond simply because my name is mentioned.

Some may find me to be a statistical anonomaly. But, from my own experience, the folks I know in professional aviation are hardly running for the hills. All have found the career challenging (we are talking America West, Delta (furloughed). Mesa, and Aloha (furloughed) and, to the man, if you asked them the simple question of "would you do it over", they have told me yes.

So, while the keepers of the "leaving the career forum" paint to the worst case scenario, I can honestly say that I'm not seeing it from personal experience.

And, in the end, if I made $87,534 instead of 292K, I'd still do it over.

But that's just me. To each his own.

Of course, your mileage may very.....

I'll respond simply because my name is mentioned.

Some may find me to be a statistical anonomaly. But, from my own experience, the folks I know in professional aviation are hardly running for the hills. All have found the career challenging (we are talking America West, Delta (furloughed). Mesa, and Aloha (furloughed) and, to the man, if you asked them the simple question of "would you do it over", they have told me yes.

So, while the keepers of the "leaving the career forum" paint to the worst case scenario, I can honestly say that I'm not seeing it from personal experience.

And, in the end, if I made $87,534 instead of 292K, I'd still do it over.

But that's just me. To each his own.

Of course, your mileage may very.....

I'll throw in the cargo at a later date and eventually weight the #'s for an even more accurate picture. The task just took longer then expected. The discussion drifted toward median pay and I wanted a hard figure for the peeps to look at.

Course if you take 87,534/12 months/300 hrs per diem = The median pilot makes $24.32 per hour at work.

Man, I wish I could have gotten a little taste of that kind of income as a pilot. I poured my life into this profession and barely cracked 40K for a few months. Few of my friends have done much better.

Skyhigh

...
I know many sons (sorry no daughters) of pilots, or nephews of pilots who are training to become pilots. I also know of several pilot offspring who were hired during the regional hiring boom.

Thoughts? :confused:

One comment: My niece is taking flying lessons as we speak and has aspirations to become an airline pilot. Her Dad had a great career and I've had to remind her that there are bumps in the road. Do it, and any career for that matter, for the love of it not the money.
My wife is chomping at the bit to return to flying after popping out this kid in July.
So this love of flying goes across all genders.
Can't wait to stay home, fly the 182 and take care of the kid while the wife realizes her dreams :p

One comment: My niece is taking flying lessons as we speak and has aspirations to become an airline pilot. Her Dad had a great career and I've had to remind her that there are bumps in the road. Do it, and any career for that matter, for the love of it not the money.
My wife is chomping at the bit to return to flying after popping out this kid in July.
So this love of flying goes across all genders.
Can't wait to stay home, fly the 182 and take care of the kid while the wife realizes her dreams :p

How can most professions use the line "Do it, and any career for that matter, for the love of it not the money"? It is hard to say that garbage men love their job. What motivation does a plumber or electrician have?

Some people would like to assume that most others merely did not try all that hard and got stuck with hauling other peoples garbage. However, I think that most people go to work because they need money and though they may not love that they do for a living they love what the job does for their life.

In my case I loved flying but did not like what it did to my life. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find a profession that provides satisfaction, respect, lifestyle and income all in one package.

Skyhigh

How can most professions use the line "Do it, and any career for that matter, for the love of it not the money"? It is hard to say that garbage men love their job. What motivation does a plumber or electrician have?

Some people would like to assume that most others merely did not try all that hard and got stuck with hauling other peoples garbage. However, I think that most people go to work because they need money and though they may not love that they do for a living they love what the job does for their life.

In my case I loved flying but did not like what it did to my life. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find a profession that provides satisfaction, respect, lifestyle and income all in one package.

Skyhigh

Too bad. The electricians and plumbers I know are fourth generation and passing on their trade to their kids. I would assume if they didn't like their careers they wouldn't be passing on their trade to their offspring and encouraging them to go to college to be English majors.
Don't know anything about garbage men except their pick up my trash.
In my previous life, I worked on my family ranch and among other things shoveled a lot of sh** out of barns. Didn't mind it as it was great excercise. The chickens and pigs were grateful and I felt appreciated:cool:
NWA has a history of treating their employees like the stuff I used to shovel out of barns, but I don't let it affect me. I enjoy the job because I MAKE it enjoyable. I'm not going to let some suit in a office in Eagan or Atlanta ruin my life.
I hope more people will get into their careers because they like it, not because they have to.

Too bad. The electricians and plumbers I know are fourth generation and passing on their trade to their kids. I would assume if they didn't like their careers they wouldn't be passing on their trade to their offspring and encouraging them to go to college to be English majors.
Don't know anything about garbage men except their pick up my trash.
In my previous life, I worked on my family ranch and among other things shoveled a lot of sh** out of barns. Didn't mind it as it was great excercise. The chickens and pigs were grateful and I felt appreciated:cool:
NWA has a history of treating their employees like the stuff I used to shovel out of barns, but I don't let it affect me. I enjoy the job because I MAKE it enjoyable. I'm not going to let some suit in a office in Eagan or Atlanta ruin my life.
I hope more people will get into their careers because they like it, not because they have to.

My point exactly. Plumbers, Electricians and garbage men "like their careers" and not the job. They did not grow up dreaming of crawling under houses and picking up other peoples trash at 4 in the morning. Pilots, fishing guides and ski instructors all expect to have fun at work and to make a living at it.

I believe that there is a difference between loving what you do while at work and loving what your career does for you. When people pursue careers that others do as a hobby then you are at a negotiating disadvantage since much of your compensation comes in the form of getting to have fun while at work.

SkyHigh

[quote=SkyHigh;540846] What motivation does a plumber or electrician have?
Seems to me that people with jobs like this love to work with their hands and enjoy the satisfaction of fixing or constructing something - sort of like mechanics or builders.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to find a profession that provides satisfaction, respect, lifestyle and income all in one package.
You should have tried the military Sky. Depending on the situation (of the person) you can acheive all of the above! :)

USMCFLYR

[QUOTE]
Seems to me that people with jobs like this love to work with their hands and enjoy the satisfaction of fixing or constructing something - sort of like mechanics or builders.


You should have tried the military Sky. Depending on the situation (of the person) you can acheive all of the above! :)

USMCFLYR

I work with plumbers and electricians and I can assure you that the average day is no fun for them. They are cold, wet, muddy and covered in spider webs by the end of the day. They are not having fun but are not totally miserable either. Over time they become accustomed to the job and the day flies by. They do it because it offers a good wage, a lifestyle that is in congress with most others and the promise of a better future.

I thought of joining the military and come from a long family history of Annapolis Graduates and the US Navy. I agree that it is possible to have a fun and satisfying career in the military but not without consequences. My relatives spent their lives on the sea while their home lives went on without them. From my perspective the military offers great pay, benefits and service to your country but all that comes at a huge price.

SkyHigh

I'll throw in the cargo at a later date and eventually weight the #'s for an even more accurate picture. The task just took longer then expected. The discussion drifted toward median pay and I wanted a hard figure for the peeps to look at.

Course if you take 87,534/12 months/300 hrs per diem = The median pilot makes $24.32 per hour at work.


I only did engineering school for 8 years but I did stay at a holiday inn last night. You didn't compute the median of anything; you didn't account for the real distribution function of seniority, the real distribution function of CA/FO ratio, the weigh factor per airline if said airline flies more than one equipment. Your number is an exercise in simple arithmetic mean with wicked right-skewed assumptions (i.e. putting 50% (ie unweighted) of Delta's "CA's" under a simple mean..6400 bodies to be exact, capping off the chart for 76- equipment... ***). Your math is a crude shot at averaging, which is exactly what one cannot do if one intends to accurately portray a statistical sample where a lot of people are on ramen noodles compared to a few who are rolling immorally well... aka the airlines.

Since APC does not provide such distribution functions to properly weigh the payscales, let's say the difference between capping out and nominal CA starting seniority on the charts for the majors (the largest culprits of statistical outliers on the x-axis [pay]) is a generous 20% across the board (I'm left-sizing your wicked right-skewed CA figures for the bulk of legacies to a simple mean since I do not have the distribution functions for CA/FO seniorities and ratios for Delta, American and United). That still puts the MEDIAN for the whole 121 biz at 70K, which is about par for the course. I actually plotted the population distribution as a function of pay scale across all data points given on APC (270 data points) and the x-y scatter makes a funny picture that looks like two people standing on Mt everest looking at a huge purple blob of un-declutterable points at the bottom. What an industry I tell ya....

THE PROBLEM is that you cannot suggest with a straight face that said 70K was the result of working 9-5, being home every night, and having weekends off and the rational assumption of the median that income retention and lateral careerism is a given. As you suggested, when normalized for an hourly figure that could be applied to banking hours you're looking at 19.44/hr...holy sh$t, the opportunity cost is working a 37K 9-5 job and taking the rest of the week off. There's your disparity right there. I can chuck a stone at a bank and land a 35-40K job with a pulse and a degree in basket weaving. This effectively says that the extra time pilots are volunteering their time they are effectively getting paid in takeoff and landings. That's fair enough, but don't call it pay.These computations don't even address the level of applicants that give up within two years of regional work, that would put the number even lower if one were to account for the unemployed and disenchanted who are otherwise qualified.

Look, the reality is that to attain a sustainable airline career that consistenly rewards you above REAL six figure income, when adjusted for hours away from home, discontinuity in pay and the foregoing of the lateral career options that is available to 99% of the population, is to hedge our bets on a statistical crapshoot. This means that the opportunity cost is gonna have to be individually assessed and it's certainly not competitive with other careers that demand time away from home (oil rig work, military and federal civil service, etc). I don't think the sunset at FL370 is really worth that opportunity cost to the median pilot, when all is said and done. But there are enough hobby pilots in the career nowadays to drown that POV for the offering that "it's what you make of it" and that subsidizing non-livable wages for the lower 25th percentile of the sample pool is justifiable, desirable, and worthwhile.

People say, "well 70K is not that bad, I'd do it over again", I say that's disingenous rationalizing from people who are not stuck in that position. It's always "reasonable" to make judgement calls on quality of life when you're not the one being confronted with said constraints. Those who are confronted with such realities and speak up about it are called whiners, after all, poverty is a moral choice according to the peanut gallery of the statistically fortunate. Gimme a break. The reality is that most people DO NOT think 70K as an aggregate income potential goal when pursuing an airline career, SJS included. Most people still choose to delude themselves into thinking that it's a simpleton function of "paying dues" and "staying the course" that's going to reward them with two-sigma to the right of individual median income compensation. That COULD be true of our aforementioned banking job, heck even civil service would net you six figures by holding out long enough, but airline work? Couldn't be farther from the truth.

The reality is that when you put rubber to the pavement with respect to these median income calculation for pilots and translate to actual circumstances, the best the median can cumulatively attain is the prayer of a regional CA lifer job that doesn't get furloughed. Plan accordingly. I did that math and decided said employment conditions and compensation was not worth mortgaging my family and personal relationships. For others that analysis will be different. But stop telling the world 777 widebody CA is "what you make of it" and fundamentally a function of perseverance, REAL LIFE be damned, that's just condescending and misinformed.

The reality is that when you put rubber to the pavement with respect to these median income calculation for pilots and translate to actual circumstances, the best the median can cumulatively attain is the prayer of a regional CA lifer job that doesn't get furloughed.

Never mind I went back and read your entire post well done.

87K vs 70K close enough for gov't work I think I'll give myself a pat on the back.:D

...then why are so many relatives of professional pilots becoming professional pilots themselves?

Thoughts? :confused:

In my view, economics has driven many changes in this industry in the past 5-6 years. What was "the best job that anyone could possibly want to have" in the late 80's and 90's has become a shell of what once was.

For those that truly love to fly airplanes, it's still not a bad job but with few exceptions, the high paying jobs that afforded 13-15 days of work a month and excellent benefits have vanished through economic factors and truly poor management of assets and resources. If you still want to fly for the pure enjoyment of flying an aircraft, go for it. Just realize that the "job" is a fraction of what it used to be as far as compensation, work rules, benefits and time off is concerned.

Be careful out there !!:rolleyes:

G'Day Mates:)

I have a finance degree, no college debt, and worked at the world headquarters of a fortune 500 company out of college as a financial analyst. My salary was 58,000. It was so mind numbingly boring I quit after less then 6 months.

I decided to enroll at a Florida pilot factory and spent 65,000 on my ratings. Excessive, but oh well. In just over two years I was hired at a regional. I flew a turbo prop for a year, fulfilled my contract and then went to the regional of my choice.

I've been at my current regional for just over 2 years. I'm 28 years old. I fly planes that are less then 2 years old. I average between 3,800 and 4,000 bucks a month in pay (per diem included). I have consistently had between 15 and 18 days off for over a year. I am able to get at least 7 days off in a row every month. I only fly day trips and two day trips. I see my wife every single day and we go on a trip of some sort at least once a month. She sometimes joins me on my overnights and we have a blast.

This job rules. To those of you who are choosing to walk away, all I can say is I'm sorry about your timing or the airline you chose to fly for. You should have had higher standards or you should have been more patient. Trust me, the grass IS NOT greener on the other side.

I work with plumbers and electricians and I can assure you that the average day is no fun for them. They are cold, wet, muddy and covered in spider webs by the end of the day. They are not having fun but are not totally miserable either. Over time they become accustomed to the job and the day flies by. They do it because it offers a good wage, a lifestyle that is in congress with most others and the promise of a better future.

You probably know more plumbers and electricans than I do and maybe that is why our own experiences color our view; so I called one of each today and asked them and they basically say that they love the job, the career and everything about it. They chose the job/careers because iof the exact reasons I stared. They had an interest and I can make a living at it. One of them even went as far to say "you are lucky and love flying and get paid for it and I'm the same way" Good enough for me Sky.


From my perspective the military offers great pay, benefits and service to your country but all that comes at a huge price.

I guess it is lucky then that we have people willing to make that choice and those sacrifices.

USMCFLYR

SkyHigh[/quote]

A Garbage Man: The Greatest Job I’ve Ever Had | Marc and Angel Hack Life (http://www.marcandangel.com/2007/05/25/a-garbage-man-the-greatest-job-i-ever-had/)

With the right frame of mind, any career can be enjoyable. There are too many of us that make the reverse a true statement as well.

...And thank you for what you do USMCFLYR and all active and former military personnel.

To those of you who are choosing to walk away, all I can say is I'm sorry about your timing or the airline you chose to fly for. You should have had higher standards or you should have been more patient. Trust me, the grass IS NOT greener on the other side.

Higher standards? More patient? Please don't tell me with your first post you know the stories of some of us with crappy luck. :rolleyes:

I have a finance degree, no college debt, and worked at the world headquarters of a fortune 500 company out of college as a financial analyst. My salary was 58,000. It was so mind numbingly boring I quit after less then 6 months.

I decided to enroll at a Florida pilot factory and spent 65,000 on my ratings. Excessive, but oh well. In just over two years I was hired at a regional. I flew a turbo prop for a year, fulfilled my contract and then went to the regional of my choice.

I've been at my current regional for just over 2 years. I'm 28 years old. I fly planes that are less then 2 years old. I average between 3,800 and 4,000 bucks a month in pay (per diem included). I have consistently had between 15 and 18 days off for over a year. I am able to get at least 7 days off in a row every month. I only fly day trips and two day trips. I see my wife every single day and we go on a trip of some sort at least once a month. She sometimes joins me on my overnights and we have a blast.

This job rules. To those of you who are choosing to walk away, all I can say is I'm sorry about your timing or the airline you chose to fly for. You should have had higher standards or you should have been more patient. Trust me, the grass IS NOT greener on the other side.

2 years at a regional and 28 years old. Do I need to say more.:cool:

Seriously though I'm glad it's working out for you so far...... I landed my dream job after regional servitude, it almost brought my family to food stamp level due to unfortunate circumstances. Time will tell.

When people pursue careers that others do as a hobby then you are at a negotiating disadvantage since much of your compensation comes in the form of getting to have fun while at work.

SkyHigh

I think that's quite accurate. Also, the fun at work keeps enough folks coming/dying to get into this industry driving wages down.

I have a finance degree, no college debt, and worked at the world headquarters of a fortune 500 company out of college as a financial analyst. My salary was 58,000. It was so mind numbingly boring I quit after less then 6 months.

I decided to enroll at a Florida pilot factory and spent 65,000 on my ratings. Excessive, but oh well. In just over two years I was hired at a regional. I flew a turbo prop for a year, fulfilled my contract and then went to the regional of my choice.

I've been at my current regional for just over 2 years. I'm 28 years old. I fly planes that are less then 2 years old. I average between 3,800 and 4,000 bucks a month in pay (per diem included). I have consistently had between 15 and 18 days off for over a year. I am able to get at least 7 days off in a row every month. I only fly day trips and two day trips. I see my wife every single day and we go on a trip of some sort at least once a month. She sometimes joins me on my overnights and we have a blast.

This job rules. To those of you who are choosing to walk away, all I can say is I'm sorry about your timing or the airline you chose to fly for. You should have had higher standards or you should have been more patient. Trust me, the grass IS NOT greener on the other side.

Dang bra' you make us under 30 crowd seem a little tumbleweed (thats mil for NO SA) with assertions like that. When that junior CA upgrade sends ya perma-commuting across the country, eats ups your disposable income in silver points at the ramada inn buffalo, ny, you'll wish you'd kept the paper pushing job at account-o-mart and bought your own saratoga and called it a day. Seriously.

Sure, if I could bid day trips from my home and have a guarantee my base wasn't gonna fold like a cheap suit yesterday I'd be happier than a pig in sh%t, but that's not the case for me nor for you in the long run, and it must certainly was not the product of your higher-than-average situational awareness on the economic intricacies of the airline business (the self-admitted 65K paying career changer). I wouldn't call the situation you encounter yourself in iron clad, more like a moving target waiting to burn that lawn up. And you're inciting karma at the 3 year point of your airline stint? LOL You are another exemplification of those who decry the argument while not yet having been truly confronted with the very opportunity costs you dismiss. Thanks for reiterating my point. That said I sincerely wish you good timing, if not for your ego for the sake of your family's future. Good luck.

Mod hat off:

Well, it simply seems to me that the guy likes his job, likes his choice, and seems to think the future is worth giving it a shot. Making cracks about his ego is pretty out of line....if you ask me....

Some people will find satisfaction in this career at 50K. Others need 200K or it's no deal. Others need a base in some crazy place like Ellensburg, WA, or it's no deal.

I simply don't see how it's proper to put your shoes into the other guys foot. To each his own. If you don't like it, then leave. If you like it, then stay. But telling someone they are a fool for staying ignores the reality that everyone has different goals and different expectations.

Feel free to educate the masses on what you think our goals should be. But don't berate those who disagree....

Mod hat off:

Well, it simply seems to me that the guy likes his job, likes his choice, and seems to think the future is worth giving it a shot. Making cracks about his ego is pretty out of line....if you ask me....

Some people will find satisfaction in this career at 50K. Others need 200K or it's no deal. Others need a base in some crazy place like Ellensburg, WA, or it's no deal.

I simply don't see how it's proper to put your shoes into the other guys foot. To each his own. If you don't like it, then leave. If you like it, then stay. But telling someone they are a fool for staying ignores the reality that everyone has different goals and different expectations.

Feel free to educate the masses on what you think our goals should be. But don't berate those who disagree....

You are correct sir. I extend an apology to the poster in question, I did not intend to make him personally a pawn while making my point, and wish him once again the benefit of good timing.

I think that's quite accurate. Also, the fun at work keeps enough folks coming/dying to get into this industry driving wages down.

That is the same load of crap that I heard when I came back from the charter outfit during furlough. I was glad to be back to the professional training, work rules, better pay, etc. at NWA.
It doesn't mean I wasn't writing to my reps when I was forced to fly 95 hours every month. It doesn't mean I wasn't calling in fatiqued when I hadn't seen a washing machine for 10 straight days out on the road.
There were and still are certain aspects of working at NWA that are better than working at some third rate charter outfit. I quit pointing out the positive to guys I flew with on the -9 because they were so miserable, they used the same lame line above. Curious, I didn't notice them volunteering for union work to make things better.

My job, while currently iffy at best , has been overall a great ride with a potentially not so happy ending but I still enjoy it. If I'm feeling a little self pity I think of the farmers I know who get up at 0 dark thirty to milk the cows and get on with their work day. There ain't no sick days for them, those cows need milking no matter what. But, guess what, there are people who love it. Thank God.

70K and time on the road if that sounds good to you then go for it. Just don't expect 200K and 17 days at home. The cards are stacked best of luck.

I came to the conclusion there are those that find the career rewarding and those that don't. If you place your priority on flying and that's what you want to do, the other stuff such as missed holidays, friends and family, job stability can take a backseat. Plenty of guys/gals live for the career. For those(including myself) that put value on other things, the career was/isn't as rewarding. Does it mean any of us are better than others for having different priorities? Nope. It just means people are all different and looking for different things to fullfill their lives. Some enjoy the view from FL 350 everyday and the lifestyle, others enjoy walking in the door everyday and seeing their dog, kids or sig. other. More power to whichever lifestyle someone decides to choose. Nothing wrong with either one as long as your happy.

I came to the conclusion there are those that find the career rewarding and those that don't. If you place your priority on flying and that's what you want to do, the other stuff such as missed holidays, friends and family, job stability can take a backseat. Plenty of guys/gals live for the career. For those(including myself) that put value on other things, the career was/isn't as rewarding. Does it mean any of us are better than others for having different priorities? Nope. It just means people are all different and looking for different things to fullfill their lives. Some enjoy the view from FL 350 everyday and the lifestyle, others enjoy walking in the door everyday and seeing their dog, kids or sig. other. More power to whichever lifestyle someone decides to choose. Nothing wrong with either one as long as your happy.

I agree with this quote and a lot of the previous ones in this thread...me, my dad, and my grandpa have all had that pilot desire in our blood since day one...but somehow the "October Sky" environments of our lives have hindered all three of us...my grandpa just died last month, so it really makes me want to get into it, knowing that he missed out on his chance...but you raise a good question that the whole board has been toggling for quite some time. I think part of the reason so many people get into after family members is because family members get the chance to ride in a plane like I did, because family members are pilots. I wouldn't have wanted to become a pilot had I never experienced the thrill of flying, and realizing that, "Hey, people actually get PAID to do this"

That is the same load of crap that I heard when I came back from the charter outfit during furlough.

Forgive my ineloquence, what I meant was a perceived notion that flying is "fun." That's why people get in and hang on through the bumps. Let's be real here, flying is often referred to as 'a dream' or the 'the dream.'

Arguably the main "dream" of many jobs is not the job itself, but the paycheck. As for flying, the converse seems to be true, barring organized labor drives.

(I beg everyone's forgiveness for speaking generally)

I remember well going to a Air Inc. job conference in the late 1990's and listening to a speech that was being given by a newly anointed DC-9 captain for a well known legacy. At the time he explained that he was 47 years old and had just spent 14 years in the right seat before getting his chance to commute half way across the country to his new base as a reserve captain. Before that he explained that he had been a commuter pilot for nearly a decade prior.

As he mundanely told his tale with disinterested gusto my mind was traumatized as his story sunk in. I couldn't believe that he had stuck it out for so long and for what seemed like a pittance in the shadow of what he had to go through. Had I known that his story was a common one I never would have taken my first flight lesson. I couldn't accept that this could be my fate as I slowly climbed the ladder.

I often wonder how that guy felt as his pay was nearly cut in half a few years later. The "dream" is much better than the reality. Some will find the career as rewarding though under the current circumstances I can not. Some people glide through this industry as if they were born on a star. The rest of us are destined to grind along in the mud while hoping for a break. I dearly wish that things were different.

The DC-9 captain I listened to that day would be nearly 58 now. I hope that he has at least advanced to the left seat of a 767. The dream most often is the paycheck, and there are much easier ways of making a living then that.

Skyhigh

Forgive my ineloquence, what I meant was a perceived notion that flying is "fun." That's why people get in and hang on through the bumps. Let's be real here, flying is often referred to as 'a dream' or the 'the dream.'

Arguably the main "dream" of many jobs is not the job itself, but the paycheck. As for flying, the converse seems to be true, barring organized labor drives.

(I beg everyone's forgiveness for speaking generally)

And my apologies for being over sensitive. Ranching/farming is another career where people do it for the love rather than the paycheck. I don't know how many years we lived on loans from Farm Credit!

"As he mundanely told his tale with disinterested gusto my mind was traumatized as his story sunk in. I couldn't believe that he had stuck it out for so long and for what seemed like a pittance in the shadow of what he had to go through."

Sky, you were never cut out for this job. I'm so glad you found something better. I wish you had run away with from the Air Inc conference knowing this biz was just not for you.....

"As he mundanely told his tale with disinterested gusto my mind was traumatized as his story sunk in. I couldn't believe that he had stuck it out for so long and for what seemed like a pittance in the shadow of what he had to go through."

Sky, you were never cut out for this job. I'm so glad you found something better. I wish you had run away with from the Air Inc conference knowing this biz was just not for you.....

Me too !! :) However I can't imagine that most people would be comfortable with that situation either. If most of us were to know how our careers would turn out from day one then we would have a lot fewer airline pilots.

I wonder if the DC-9 captain knew that half of his pay would be snatched away just after making it to the left seat he would have made some different career choices earlier on?

SkyHigh

I never liked giving up so much control over my life as you have to when you are a pilot. During my part 135 days I hated being tied to a pager. I especially hated being the play toy of a self absorbed executive. They were constantly changing the schedule. You never really knew if you would make it home that day or not. A 4 hour trip easily turned into three days on the road. No matter what I was told after a while I would always bring a small bag with at least a tooth brush. I spent plenty of blue bird days waiting around at FBO's for tantrum throwing people in blue suits. A two hour wait would turn into 4 then 6 then 12. finally I would be on my way home and dispatch would call and divert me to someplace else.

As a charter pilot for one of my past employers I was on 24 hour call and would be on duty for 21 days in a row with 4 days off. One time I had been called by dispatch at 2:00AM for a flight that ended back home by 11:00AM. I stayed up till my normal bed time so I could get back on my normal sleep pattern then I was called again at 12:30AM since my 8 hours of rest were up by then. I was back in the late in morning and again that night I was called for a trip. I ended up going for nearly three days without sleep. I was miserable. Guys over 50 seem to be able to stay awake all night and sleep mid-day if they wanted. I could not. I did not like loosing control over when I could sleep.

Then came the airlines. The schedule made things better. 12 hour reserve was nice. I could plan my sleep better, but nearly everything else was out of my hands. As an airline pilot you do not have much control over where you live. How you live. What kind of plane you will fly. Your career progression. What kind of clothes you will wear while at work. Who you will fly with. How much money you will make. Humans can adapt to changes however changes in the airlines were either painfully slow as with upgrade or blindingly fast, like how quickly a company could go down the drain.

By the end of my career I was beginning to become comfortable with my profession and really began to feel that I had found my place. I had been on the same equipment for three years and was becoming very skilled at most everything that had to do with the 757 and my company. I was senior enough that I could control my schedule a bit and upgrade was just around the corner. My pay was still lousy but we had just refinanced our home loan to a lower payment and were in the process of paying down our credit cards. I was beginning to feel that we had made it. I was looking forward to going to work. My wife was starting to see the benefits of an airline life when the company shut down.

Yet again by the time I wanted to stay I had control taken away. Executives were making decisions behind closed doors that directly effected my life. No control. Today I may not be able to control the government or economy but have a say in much more that I ever had as a pilot. My value is not tied to a seniority number or to the actions of unseen executives anymore. I still have to do things that I am not all that excited about but instead of being lead about by others I am my own task master. Control is an illusion but it is still nice to be able to think that you have some say in what happens to you. As a pilot you can not even pretend that you have any input. The people who have ultimate control over your life have names and titles. As a matter of practice they like to disrupt the peace of their subordinates to remind them that they are being lead. I sleep much better now.

SkyHigh

I only did engineering school for 8 years but I did stay at a holiday inn last night. You didn't compute the median of anything; you didn't account for the real distribution function of seniority, the real distribution function of CA/FO ratio, the weigh factor per airline if said airline flies more than one equipment. Your number is an exercise in simple arithmetic mean with wicked right-skewed assumptions (i.e. putting 50% (ie unweighted) of Delta's "CA's" under a simple mean..6400 bodies to be exact, capping off the chart for 76- equipment... ***). Your math is a crude shot at averaging, which is exactly what one cannot do if one intends to accurately portray a statistical sample where a lot of people are on ramen noodles compared to a few who are rolling immorally well... aka the airlines.

Since APC does not provide such distribution functions to properly weigh the payscales, let's say the difference between capping out and nominal CA starting seniority on the charts for the majors (the largest culprits of statistical outliers on the x-axis [pay]) is a generous 20% across the board (I'm left-sizing your wicked right-skewed CA figures for the bulk of legacies to a simple mean since I do not have the distribution functions for CA/FO seniorities and ratios for Delta, American and United). That still puts the MEDIAN for the whole 121 biz at 70K, which is about par for the course. I actually plotted the population distribution as a function of pay scale across all data points given on APC (270 data points) and the x-y scatter makes a funny picture that looks like two people standing on Mt everest looking at a huge purple blob of un-declutterable points at the bottom. What an industry I tell ya....

THE PROBLEM is that you cannot suggest with a straight face that said 70K was the result of working 9-5, being home every night, and having weekends off and the rational assumption of the median that income retention and lateral careerism is a given. As you suggested, when normalized for an hourly figure that could be applied to banking hours you're looking at 19.44/hr...holy sh$t, the opportunity cost is working a 37K 9-5 job and taking the rest of the week off. There's your disparity right there. I can chuck a stone at a bank and land a 35-40K job with a pulse and a degree in basket weaving. This effectively says that the extra time pilots are volunteering their time they are effectively getting paid in takeoff and landings. That's fair enough, but don't call it pay.These computations don't even address the level of applicants that give up within two years of regional work, that would put the number even lower if one were to account for the unemployed and disenchanted who are otherwise qualified.

Look, the reality is that to attain a sustainable airline career that consistenly rewards you above REAL six figure income, when adjusted for hours away from home, discontinuity in pay and the foregoing of the lateral career options that is available to 99% of the population, is to hedge our bets on a statistical crapshoot. This means that the opportunity cost is gonna have to be individually assessed and it's certainly not competitive with other careers that demand time away from home (oil rig work, military and federal civil service, etc). I don't think the sunset at FL370 is really worth that opportunity cost to the median pilot, when all is said and done. But there are enough hobby pilots in the career nowadays to drown that POV for the offering that "it's what you make of it" and that subsidizing non-livable wages for the lower 25th percentile of the sample pool is justifiable, desirable, and worthwhile.

People say, "well 70K is not that bad, I'd do it over again", I say that's disingenous rationalizing from people who are not stuck in that position. It's always "reasonable" to make judgement calls on quality of life when you're not the one being confronted with said constraints. Those who are confronted with such realities and speak up about it are called whiners, after all, poverty is a moral choice according to the peanut gallery of the statistically fortunate. Gimme a break. The reality is that most people DO NOT think 70K as an aggregate income potential goal when pursuing an airline career, SJS included. Most people still choose to delude themselves into thinking that it's a simpleton function of "paying dues" and "staying the course" that's going to reward them with two-sigma to the right of individual median income compensation. That COULD be true of our aforementioned banking job, heck even civil service would net you six figures by holding out long enough, but airline work? Couldn't be farther from the truth.

The reality is that when you put rubber to the pavement with respect to these median income calculation for pilots and translate to actual circumstances, the best the median can cumulatively attain is the prayer of a regional CA lifer job that doesn't get furloughed. Plan accordingly. I did that math and decided said employment conditions and compensation was not worth mortgaging my family and personal relationships. For others that analysis will be different. But stop telling the world 777 widebody CA is "what you make of it" and fundamentally a function of perseverance, REAL LIFE be damned, that's just condescending and misinformed.

LOL... This is great stuff. I don't know what your profession may be..but, you could very easily be a legacy of say....Dennis Miller. Your not in broadcasting!?

Anyway, I made the change from airline to corporate , if you call that a change, and find it much more family oriented with equal to better pay. But, it came with a little work and a lot of luck.

Then came the airlines. The schedule made things better. 12 hour reserve was nice. I could plan my sleep better, but nearly everything else was out of my hands. As an airline pilot you do not have much control over where you live. How you live. What kind of plane you will fly. Your career progression. What kind of clothes you will wear while at work. Who you will fly with. How much money you will make. Humans can adapt to changes however changes in the airlines were either painfully slow as with upgrade or blindingly fast, like how quickly a company could go down the drain. SkyHigh



You see now this is the part that I don’t understand when it comes to pilots who have left the industry because they stopped liking their job or are in the industry but don’t like their job. Sky, before you made the decision to become a professional pilot, what exactly did you think a pilot’s life entailed? Did you not do your research before jumping in? Did you not test the waters; kick the tires a little bit? Seriously what did you think you were getting into? Did you think that you were getting into a 9-5 job, home every night or even every other night, or even every 2or 3 nights? You never thought that you might have to be extended every now and then, sometimes more often that you would like? Did you not know that as a pilot you would have to move to where your job is or did you think that every company home based their pilots? Did you not know that you would be living out of suitcases and hotels for the rest of your life (depending on what kind of flying you did)? Did you think that after being hired you could demand what kind of plane you wanted to fly and would accept nothing else? Did you think that every company has the same upgrading system or did you not know that upgrading can go from less than one year to more than 12 years? Did you think that you could pick and choose who you wanted to fly with and what to wear at work or did you not know that most professional pilots have a uniform?

I could go on and on and on but you get the point. WHAT IN THE WORLD DID YOU THINK YOU WERE GETTING INTO!!! With all due respect, if you did not know any of this and still went into the industry then you have no one to blame but yourself, and if you knew all this before going in, then you should have had a reasonable back up plan, that way if it’s all too much for you, simply implement your back up plan, and WALK AWAY!!!

Him and I both have answered these questions in the past. Both of us got in around the early 90's, and did know what we were getting into........Stability, QOL, and a good retirement. You might have been too young to remember....

Really?!!! You mean to say that there was once STABILITY in the airline world? Are you saying that the cyclical nature of the airline industry only recently started after the early 90’s? Hmm, that’s news to me.

Really?!!! You mean to say that there was once STABILITY in the airline world? Are you saying that the cyclical nature of the airline industry only recently started after the early 90’s? Hmm, that’s news to me.

Woa cargo easy..... I did some research but did not realize that pilots are just pawns in the game of business. I thought they were respected/educated individuals on par with a doctor or lawyer. Once upon a time I suppose they were. Times have changed you don't see it.

I have a finance degree, no college debt, and worked at the world headquarters of a fortune 500 company out of college as a financial analyst. My salary was 58,000. It was so mind numbingly boring I quit after less then 6 months.

I decided to enroll at a Florida pilot factory and spent 65,000 on my ratings. Excessive, but oh well. In just over two years I was hired at a regional. I flew a turbo prop for a year, fulfilled my contract and then went to the regional of my choice.

I've been at my current regional for just over 2 years. I'm 28 years old. I fly planes that are less then 2 years old. I average between 3,800 and 4,000 bucks a month in pay (per diem included). I have consistently had between 15 and 18 days off for over a year. I am able to get at least 7 days off in a row every month. I only fly day trips and two day trips. I see my wife every single day and we go on a trip of some sort at least once a month. She sometimes joins me on my overnights and we have a blast.

This job rules. To those of you who are choosing to walk away, all I can say is I'm sorry about your timing or the airline you chose to fly for. You should have had higher standards or you should have been more patient. Trust me, the grass IS NOT greener on the other side.

SJS at it's finest.........

Woa cargo easy..... I did some research but did not realize that pilots are just pawns in the game of business. I thought they were respected/educated individuals on par with a doctor or lawyer. Once upon a time I suppose they were. Times have changed you don't see it.

True. The bad times recovered for a while in the 90's. Things were good for years until 9/11. Then got bad again for a short time. Then good for a really short time. Now, it will NEVER recover.

hahaha. SJS induced comment.

You should have had higher standards...

I didn't realize their were higher standards at the regional level <sarcasm> My impression would be that working at a major is a higher standard.

you should have been more patient.

Talking about patients, you even admit yourself you enrolled at a pilot factory. While many of us did the snail-paced FBO program...


But hey, your happy!

I grew up in a suburb that had a lot of airline pilots who lived there. As a high school kid I got a job working for one of my friends father. He was a DC-10 captain for a well known legacy airline and had a business venture on the side that he owned along with a few other airline pilots. As an employee of this guy I was able to follow him around and got to know him and all his airline buddies very well.

They never seemed to go to work and did not seem to grasp even some of the more basic concepts of aviation. At the time I was taking private pilot ground school and once showed a VFR chart to my boss the airline captain. I remember him flipping it over and turning it upside down while trying to figure out what that big sheet of colorful paper was. When I told him that it was a VFR chart and that I wanted his help on something he told me that he had never seen one before and could not be of service.

He and his friends carried on like a bunch of middle aged frat boy adolescents. They lived on alcohol, adultery and debauchery. I listened to them as they shared stories about sleeping in flight and drunken nights abroad.I remember well being told that wedding vows were only in effect within two VOR's distance from home. When I asked for career advice to a man they each told me to "lie about my time and get hired as soon as possible". One of them proudly told me that he was in the air force and only flew an military version of the Cessna 172. He only barely had 1000 hours by the time he got out and was picked up at a major. He lied about the rest.

Another neighborhood airline pilot dad kept telling me to "get your commercial, 300 hundred hours and apply to UAL. They will hire you." He was a nice guy and never seemed to go to the extremes that the other pilots did. At the time UAL had a firm 250 hour minimum for applicants. However by the time I had my 300 hours things had changed.

Though I did not share in their lifestyle dreams I thought that if these guys could manage to not get fired and to keep a big jet right side up then there was a good chance that as a sober and dedicated person I could do well in the industry. They all seemed to make good money and had lots of time off. I will never forget one day when my friend and I skipped school to watch TV at my friends house. He grabbed the mail on our way in and when he sat down at the kitchen table he tore open a letter that was addressed to his dad. He then offered the letter to me to read and it was his dads paycheck and it was huge. My father in comparison worked very hard for his money. These guys seemed to party their way through their careers.

I expected to have a similar experience as all the pilots whom I saw growing up. It seemed irrational to me that after so much effort and sacrifice that I would not be valued for my skills. At the time there was a firm cut off of 30 years old at the majors. I did not think it would take me until my mid-thirties or early forties just to get the chance of being a new hire at a major. I thought that I would be well compensated for my sacrifices and that it would be a struggle but I certainly did not expect to be poor for as long as I was. I thought that most of the struggle and sacrifice I was facing would be the first three to five years as a flight engioneer at the majors. At the time there were a few commuters and no regionals. All it took was one or two thousand hours of flight time and a month as a learjet FO to get hired at a major. I thought that I was buying into a profession and not investing in a long shot dream.

SkyHigh

Sky, and please correct me if I’m wrong, so you made a CAREER DECISION based on the similar experiences as all the pilots whom you saw growing up? You never asked what the drawbacks to the industry were? That goes to my point. If you did ask what the drawbacks were and still pursed it without a proper backup plan, then whose fault is it really? And if you did not ask what the drawbacks were and went solely on what you saw growing up, then that’s just simply a very flawed research into a life long decision; and you know where the blame for that one lies as well.

Once again, drawbacks, did you not think there were any? Seriously!

Sky, and please correct me if I’m wrong, so you made a CAREER DECISION based on the similar experiences as all the pilots whom you saw growing up? You never asked what the drawbacks to the industry were? That goes to my point. If you did ask what the drawbacks were and still pursed it without a proper backup plan, then whose fault is it really? And if you did not ask what the drawbacks were and went solely on what you saw growing up, then that’s just simply a very flawed research into a life long decision; and you know where the blame for that one lies as well.

Once again, drawbacks, did you not think there were any? Seriously!

If there were any drawbacks my airline mentors did not offer any. At the time I remember them complaining about the first few years as a flight engioneer. However like others here like to mention every job has some drawbacks. These guys presented the career as a rolling party and at the time I think is was. I certainly felt able to deal with the job as they presented it to me.

Plenty of neighborhood airline fathers started their airline career during the time in the 1960's when people were hired straight into the majors without anything more than the 250 hours it took to get the commercial rating. My own father, an aerospace engioneer and private pilot, told stories of being personally and repeatedly solicited by a representative from American Airlines who followed him down the hall at UCLA as he was going from class to class. American Airlines offered to put him on salary while he completed the remainder of his commercial training, that was also to be paid for by AA, to then be followed by ground school to become a line pilot. Other airlines sent people and letters offering the same. (Sadly for me my father did not take any of those offers. :mad:)

As a 17 year old kid the profession was presented to me as a job that was fairly difficult to get in as much as it took; professional qualifications, four years of college, some experience, 20/20 vision, height and weight proportional physique, pass a two day physical, and you had to be under 30 years of age at the time of hire. It was a totally doable proposition at the time and completely worth the effort. Adults who were in the profession were giving me this information that I also witnessed first hand.

After growing up among airline pilot families and hearing my fathers stories of his brushes with the profession there was no other side to tell. The airlines paid a fortune to pilots who were occasionally hung over, underwhelmed and under worked by today's standards. As I sat in college I watched as upperclassmen graduated and would then return 6 months to two years later in uniform and addressing the class as a new hire for the airline of their dreams. What else was I supposed to think? The industry changed before I could get there.

Skyhigh

Sky:
As a 17 year old kid the profession was presented to me as a job that was fairly difficult to get in as much as it took; professional qualifications, four years of college, some experience, 20/20 vision, height and weight proportional physique, pass a two day physical, and you had to be under 30 years of age at the time of hire.

How did military get hired back in these days?
In some ways Sky - you remind me of the souls who join the military and then complain when they find out they have to deploy or worse yet - possibly fire a weapon!!
Reading your life story (and I'm amazed that you seem to have had every type of flying job imaginable) that you didn't know the drawbacks fairly early on in your career.

USMCFLYR

Sky:


How did military get hired back in these days?
In some ways Sky - you remind me of the souls who join the military and then complain when they find out they have to deploy or worse yet - possibly fire a weapon!!
Reading your life story (and I'm amazed that you seem to have had every type of flying job imaginable) that you didn't know the drawbacks fairly early on in your career.

USMCFLYR


It is no big mystery. The hardships and drawbacks were acceptable back when the sacrifices were of a shorter duration, pilots were paid well and were given appropriate time off. Once you take that away all that is left are the shortcomings.

The only reason that I had a long, broad and drawn out career was because I had a long and painful ladder to climb in attempt of reaching my dream. I would have gladly given it all up to have been able to walk on to my career objective early on.

I wanted a profession. Something to build a life upon. I wanted to be able to have a family to take on vacations to Europe and to be able to provide a good life for them. What I got was a lonely and impoverished adventure instead.


Skyhigh

Sky:


How did military get hired back in these days?
In some ways Sky - you remind me of the souls who join the military and then complain when they find out they have to deploy or worse yet - possibly fire a weapon!!
Reading your life story (and I'm amazed that you seem to have had every type of flying job imaginable) that you didn't know the drawbacks fairly early on in your career.

USMCFLYR

In response to your military question. I do not think that commitments for pilots were nearly as long back then as they are now. Though I did not really follow what military pilots did very closely.

As I recall up until the late 1980's pilots had to be under 30, have 20/20 vision and pass a two day physical as a normal part of the interview process.

My vision is still 20/20 to this day.

Skyhigh

Nice stories Sky. I had some boyhood pals whose father was one of those early 70's major airline guys and his was a similar story- luxury cars, big new houses, too much time off, couldn't keep a wife, wasn't there most of the time, and so on. The older son was mean and I could never figure out why. I did not attribute it to his father at the time or the broken home, and the father scared me how cool he was. There was this air of coldness about him, as though he couldn't quite accept that someone who had a new Thunderbird was also getting a divorce and losing his kids. My father was so nice, handsome and educated, this guy was just rich, mean, and overpaid although he as handsome. It was not a good sample of the airline life for me and I had no interest in aviation until high school, when several of my friends were headed for the Air Force. By then my vision had deteriorated from 20/20 and as you know that nixed the deal for pilot training back then. I guess in retrospect I am glad I did not pursue pilot training on my own since the industry had deteriorated by the late 80's.

Back in the late 1980's when I was getting my private pilots license United Airlines was probably one of the biggest and most sought after airlines in the land. At the time I recall that they had a firm policy on accepting applications from pilots. You had to have at least 250 hours, a commercial license and a radio operators permit.

It was much easier to make it to a major airline then. There were few commuter airlines and no such thing as a regional. Most new hires had around 1200 hours, a college degree and were under 30 years of age. It still seemed difficult at the time but when compared to what pilots face today it was a walk in the park.

Since then I have seen the industry change. Every few years a new layer is added to the list of accomplishments needed to make it to the big time. Currently the industry needs to see pilots with at least a four year degree, 1000 hours of turbine multi PIC and sometimes a type rating just to apply. Competitive hiring qualifications often are much higher than that. Each layer of required experience can add years to the time it takes to reach a pilots career objective.

Recently a well known cargo operator added the requirement of trans oceanic experience to their list. Most pilot applicants currently come from the ranks of regional airlines. In order to get trans oceanic experience most will have to leave their jobs to seek employment in an entirely new branch of aviation. No small sacrifice.

As a result of the added layers pilots are getting older and older before reaching a legacy airline. Air Inc use to keep track of average pilot ages upon reaching a legacy airline. I remember in 2000 the average was around 33 then in 2004 it was 38 now it could be 42.

I believe that most of the controversy between pilot groups and on this forum is because of differing expectations that come from pilots who started their careers at different times. I expected to graduate from college, build my flight time for a year or two then get hired as a flight engioneer at a legacy airline and start my life. Never did I or any of my peers expect to be still filling out applications 20 years later.

Skyhigh

[quote=SkyHigh;542618]In response to your military question. I do not think that commitments for pilots were nearly as long back then as they are now. Though I did not really follow what military pilots did very closely.

I realize that. My own commitment was only 4.5 years after winging. I could have gotten out of the military before I was 30 years old. I just doubt that the airlines ONLY hired military pilots who had gotten out after their initial commitment. I'm sure there were plenty of retired military pilots getting airline jobs "back in the day" as you say.

USMCFLYR

Recently a well known cargo operator added the requirement of trans oceanic experience to their list. Most pilot applicants currently come from the ranks of regional airlines. In order to get trans oceanic experience most will have to leave their jobs to seek employment in an entirely new branch of aviation. No small sacrifice.
Are you saying that this requirement is still in effect?

USMCFLYR

It's sounds like that's what he's saying...

I don't know if the requirement is in effect or not. It is amazing that it was even added in the first place.

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR

You are the military guy so you must know best however I remember that it was uncommon for pilots to remain in the military after their first commitment.

The movie An Officer and a Gentleman featured people who wanted to get into the military so that they could get pilot training and promptly leave for the airlines once their commitment was through. And, that is what I remember it being like.

Staying in for 20 years then attempting an airline career is a fairly recent development from my experience. Up until around 1990 a pilot either got on with a legacy airline by 30 years of age or else their dreams were over.

SkyHigh

In 1996 I remember well that FedEx wanted 1500 hours of total time and 500 of turbine SIC as minimums to apply.

Around the same time Alaska Airlines wanted 1200 total and 750 hours of multi engine piston time in order to apply.

I think that UAL only wanted 500 hours total and a $50 application fee in the mid 1990's.

Does anyone remember some industry minimums that they would like to add?

Skyhigh

[quote=SkyHigh;543595]USMCFLYR

You are the military guy so you must know best however I remember that it was uncommon for pilots to remain in the military after their first commitment.

Where do you get these generalities that you come up with?:eek: Where do you get data that shows that it is "uncommon for pilots to remain in the military after their first commitment."?


The movie An Officer and a Gentleman featured people who wanted to get into the military so that they could get pilot training and promptly leave for the airlines once their commitment was through. And, that is what I remember it being like.

I recently watched that piece of work and I don't remember any of the main characters saying that they wanted to get into the military so they could fly jets and promptly leave for the arilines. Which scene was it where people (meaning more than one) stated that path as their objective?

Staying in for 20 years then attempting an airline career is a fairly recent development from my experience. Up until around 1990 a pilot either got on with a legacy airline by 30 years of age or else their dreams were over.

OK- so your only two choices in the military are getting out after your first commitment or staying in for 20 years. No chance for something along the middle of the road eh?

I think you are stretching for a lot of the points that you are trying to make in your recent posts. As usual - you have some good points but then overreach and start making claims that don't have any factual basis but are formed (possibly) from your own experiences and then related as fact.

USMCFLYR

[QUOTE]

Where do you get these generalities that you come up with?:eek: Where do you get data that shows that it is "uncommon for pilots to remain in the military after their first commitment."?


I recently watched that piece of work and I don't remember any of the main characters saying that they wanted to get into the military so they could fly jets and promptly leave for the arilines. Which scene was it where people (meaning more than one) stated that path as their objective?

OK- so your only two choices in the military are getting out after your first commitment or staying in for 20 years. No chance for something along the middle of the road eh?

I think you are stretching for a lot of the points that you are trying to make in your recent posts. As usual - you have some good points but then overreach and start making claims that don't have any factual basis but are formed (possibly) from your own experiences and then related as fact.

USMCFLYR

I can't say what went through the minds of every military pilot. In my experience the "general" thinking in the 1980's was to get in and then get out right away. Military service was a common path to the airlines and the airlines had a common cut off of 30 years of age until around 1990.

I don't know if military guys got around the age limit However it is logical to think that they wanted an airline career they left before reaching 30.

Skyhigh

I took this quote from another web site. It was written by a respected airline professional that is now a UPS Captain.

" I had over 1000 turbine, 400 PIC turbine, and a type rating in 1989. That was enough to get me interviews at Continental Airlines, World Airways, and the largest package delivery company in the world (UPS). Luckily, to my very complete surprise, I got the freight job (UPS) in 1990."

Imagine trying to get hired these days with those credentials.

SkyHigh

USMCFLYR

You are the military guy so you must know best however I remember that it was uncommon for pilots to remain in the military after their first commitment.

The movie An Officer and a Gentleman featured people who wanted to get into the military so that they could get pilot training and promptly leave for the airlines once their commitment was through. And, that is what I remember it being like.

Staying in for 20 years then attempting an airline career is a fairly recent development from my experience. Up until around 1990 a pilot either got on with a legacy airline by 30 years of age or else their dreams were over. Some guys put in more than their initial commitment and later got out for other aspirations...not always flying.

SkyHigh

I have to disagree with you Sky. Having been on AD from 1985 to 1992... there were guys who got out and those that stayed. And lets be clear... that was about the time that the AF and other branches started the up or out stuff. I.e. you either had to be promoted at some point or you were sent packing. And there has NEVER been enough room at the top for everyone who came in at the bottom. My Wing saw plenty of guys get out in the late 80's... but plenty that stayed as well. Plenty of my mid 80s contemporaries made field grade rank and many went on to careers in the airlines as well.

I suppose it all works in managements favor. 30 years ago young pilots were sought after since the company could gain decades of service from one trained employee.

Today it seems that management wishes to limit their exposure to pilots who are in their top tier earning years. Why hire a 25 year old who could potentially work for 40 years when you could increase the hiring minimums and hire highly experienced pilots who were in their late 30s or early 40's? These guys would make it into the upper levels of the pay scales just as they were reaching retirement age.

Better yet, it behooves management to hire retired career military guys in their 40s who already come with a retirement. Why not place roadblocks and add layers to the long list of obstacles that new hires must accomplish. The airlines are not a place to invest yourself anymore and airlines do not wish to invest in their employees either.

By 2020 a common career progression might be to join the military and retire as a pilot after 20 years to then be followed by a decade in the regionals to finally be able to apply to a legacy and enjoy your last 10 to 15 years at your career objective. During the last two or three years prior to 65 the pilot can bask in the glory of finally breaking the 100K mark before becoming soylent green.

Skyhigh

... soylent green.
Skyhigh
And you saw that movie back in the day? In about 1975 it went around to the cheaper drive ins and movie theatres across America, and of course this is the only way one saw a movie back in those days. There were no vcrs, dvds, tv movies, or HBO. I was about 6 or 7 years old. I actually never saw the movie, but I know what it is about. My family had just moved to a rural part of Georgia so my Dad could get to the north Georgia mountains for art photography. In the public school I was in, I was singled out with about 5 others as "bright kids" that get special treatment. This meant we got to do special lessons on our own and once a week were supposed to meet this lady they brought around who was really pretty cool. She was young, sexy and smart, and basically she just got us there in a trailer outside the school and b/s'ed us the whole time. Well, one of the things on her mind one week was this movie "Soylent Green". She told us the plot and had us discuss it even though we had not seen the movie. To this day I have never seen the movie. But sitting in that trailer in 1975 with my "special pals" in 1975 discussing this will never leave my mind. Thanks again, Sky. You are quite a character!

[quote=USMCFLYR;543602]

I can't say what went through the minds of every military pilot. In my experience the "general" thinking in the 1980's was to get in and then get out right away. Military service was a common path to the airlines and the airlines had a common cut off of 30 years of age until around 1990.

I don't know if military guys got around the age limit However it is logical to think that they wanted an airline career they left before reaching 30.

Skyhigh

Sky -

Do you ever listen to anyone else on these forums?
You're right - you can't say what went through *every* military pilot's mind and neither can I. But I'll bet that I had more access to them and know more about them, and even knew more of them than you did in this particular instance and I say you are wrong. Military service might have a been ONE path to the airlines but what statistical proof do you have that it was common? I'd be willing to bet that a majority of the young men did not sit in the first day of AI/API (or AF equiv.) and wonder about what it was going to be like to be an airline pilot. Why can't you just accept that you are making generalizations about something that you have no proof of and leave it at that.
As for the 30 year old age cut-off; you're going to have to show that to me in writing to make me believe that a military pilot getting out after he was 30 couldn't get on with an airline - especially since the percentage of former military pilots was much higher back in the days right? I heard it was down to about 50/50 now.

USMCFLYR

Sky, just curious, are you breaking the 100k mark?

[quote=SkyHigh;543623]

Sky -

Do you ever listen to anyone else on these forums?
You're right - you can't say what went through *every* military pilot's mind and neither can I. But I'll bet that I had more access to them and know more about them, and even knew more of them than you did in this particular instance and I say you are wrong. Military service might have a been ONE path to the airlines but what statistical proof do you have that it was common? I'd be willing to bet that a majority of the young men did not sit in the first day of AI/API (or AF equiv.) and wonder about what it was going to be like to be an airline pilot. Why can't you just accept that you are making generalizations about something that you have no proof of and leave it at that.
As for the 30 year old age cut-off; you're going to have to show that to me in writing to make me believe that a military pilot getting out after he was 30 couldn't get on with an airline - especially since the percentage of former military pilots was much higher back in the days right? I heard it was down to about 50/50 now.

USMCFLYR

I do not have a research department. If it is really that important to you why don't you ask an airline pilot who is older than 50 and see what they remember from that time.

Also people on this forum love to come out of the woodwork and jump all over me when my recollection of fact is less than perfectly accurate. Often when there is not a rush of opposition in response to a post of mine that uses factual information the following silence itself is self evident of accuracy.

If nothing else DE727UPS should have something to say. He never lets me slide on anything. :)

Skyhigh

Sky, just curious, are you breaking the 100k mark?

I am glad that you brought this up. Normally I do not like to quote such details like some here on APC. To me it is insensitive and rude. However I will volunteer that as a 19 year old in college I use to dream of what my life would be like as a fat cat rich airline pilot.

My airline dreams were a huge disappointment. I wasted nearly two decades and almost everything that I had and was left with an empty bag. Defeated and nearly destitute I had to leave the profession (was laid off with no other job opportunities). Since then I have been shocked at how quickly my dreams have true. Not only did all my lifestyle dreams come true but this June we are expecting our sixth son.

I can not say what my future holds but I am still stunned at my good fortune and am thankful everyday. There was a time when I thought that I had really blown it. I thought that I was too old to be a husband and father. I use to think that aviation had taken me away from all my best chances at life. All I had to do was to let go of a bad dream to get to a good one. So, in answer to your question; yes, I broke the mark a long time ago.

Skyhigh

And you saw that movie back in the day? In about 1975 it went around to the cheaper drive ins and movie theatres across America, and of course this is the only way one saw a movie back in those days. There were no vcrs, dvds, tv movies, or HBO. I was about 6 or 7 years old. I actually never saw the movie, but I know what it is about. My family had just moved to a rural part of Georgia so my Dad could get to the north Georgia mountains for art photography. In the public school I was in, I was singled out with about 5 others as "bright kids" that get special treatment. This meant we got to do special lessons on our own and once a week were supposed to meet this lady they brought around who was really pretty cool. She was young, sexy and smart, and basically she just got us there in a trailer outside the school and b/s'ed us the whole time. Well, one of the things on her mind one week was this movie "Soylent Green". She told us the plot and had us discuss it even though we had not seen the movie. To this day I have never seen the movie. But sitting in that trailer in 1975 with my "special pals" in 1975 discussing this will never leave my mind. Thanks again, Sky. You are quite a character!

I am very glad that someone was able to pick up on that reference. :)

Skyhigh

"Often when there is not a rush of opposition in response to a post of mine that uses factual information the following silence itself is self evident of accuracy."

No Sky, it simply means people don't care to respond to you anymore. You're having delusions of grandeur again if you think people ignoring you brings accuracy to your statements...

"Often when there is not a rush of opposition in response to a post of mine that uses factual information the following silence itself is self evident of accuracy."

No Sky, it simply means people don't care to respond to you anymore. You're having delusions of grandeur again if you think people ignoring you brings accuracy to your statements...

Break the silence then. Tell us. Do you remember the age 30 limit or not? What are your recollections of the 20/20 vision requirements?

Rather than accuse me of having delusions of grandeur why don't you jump on me and declare my information incorrect?

Skyhigh

Sky, you seem to be begging me to post at your thread. I'm just not interested in being a part of it other than to point out your silly logic here and there. Things like "well, if nobody tells me I'm wrong, I must be right".

Sky, you seem to be begging me to post at your thread. I'm just not interested in being a part of it other than to point out your silly logic here and there. Things like "well, if nobody tells me I'm wrong, I must be right".

Well then, at least will you pm USMCFLYR and tell him in private that I was right? We don't want the poor guy loose with mis-information do we?

My point is that if I post something that may not be exactly right in your eyes then you are quick to jump on me and try to rub my face in it. However when I am dead on accurate or cleanly win a debate only silence remains to hail my victory. ;)

You never come back with a, "good job skyhigh" or a "you really nailed me with that one". A pat on the back once in a while would be nice that is all.

SkyHigh

Break the silence then. Tell us. Do you remember the age 30 limit or not? What are your recollections of the 20/20 vision requirements?

Rather than accuse me of having delusions of grandeur why don't you jump on me and declare my information incorrect?

Skyhigh

The age 30 thing was before my time. But according to this guy I knew, he did not get the job at United because they told him straight up he was too old. I think he was early 30's at the time it was the late 70's.

[quote=USMCFLYR;543857]

I do not have a research department. If it is really that important to you why don't you ask an airline pilot who is older than 50 and see what they remember from that time.

Also people on this forum love to come out of the woodwork and jump all over me when my recollection of fact is less than perfectly accurate. Often when there is not a rush of opposition in response to a post of mine that uses factual information the following silence itself is self evident of accuracy.

If nothing else DE727UPS should have something to say. He never lets me slide on anything. :)

Skyhigh

Oh no dear Sky. It is not I that needs to research as I am not the one making false claims and passing them as fact.

USMCFLYR

Well then, at least will you pm USMCFLYR and tell him in private that I was right? We don't want the poor guy loose with mis-information do we?

My point is that if I post something that may not be exactly right in your eyes then you are quick to jump on me and try to rub my face in it. However when I am dead on accurate or cleanly win a debate only silence remains to hail my victory. ;)

You never come back with a, "good job skyhigh" or a "you really nailed me with that one". A pat on the back once in a while would be nice that is all.

SkyHigh

I asked you to point me to some factual information Sky. If it is true then I want to see it. Sorry Sky - but for all of your wordly knowledge, I don't take WELL SKY SAID IT as factual. You don't need DE providing your data. Just point me to some historical data or something. If it was indeed true and pilots (especially military pilots) didn't get hired on if they we re older than 30 then I will come back on this very thread and say that you were right.

USMCFLYR

"You never come back with a, "good job skyhigh" or a "you really nailed me with that one". A pat on the back once in a while would be nice that is all."

Good job, USMC, you have clearly won this debate. I pat you on the back....

I asked you to point me to some factual information Sky. If it is true then I want to see it. Sorry Sky - but for all of your wordly knowledge, I don't take WELL SKY SAID IT as factual. You don't need DE providing your data. Just point me to some historical data or something. If it was indeed true and pilots (especially military pilots) didn't get hired on if they we re older than 30 then I will come back on this very thread and say that you were right.

USMCFLYR

Man I wish I could find some of this stuff and have hard data for you and many others here. It is difficult to find. Like I said before I do not have a researchers working for me to dig up references and factual data for every post. No one else is asked to do that either. On the occasion that I do have a reference most choose to ignore it anyway. Therefore you will either have to accept my statements or search it out for yourself.

Statement:

Up until the late 1980's legacy airlines turned all pilots away who were older than 30, had less than 20/20 vision and were not height and weight proportional.

DE727UPS has yet to deny it because he knows that it is an accurate statement. Why don't you ask him?

SkyHigh

I remember well that United Airlines had a height and weight chart that they published. There were strict weight limitations that had to be met. They also had vision and other health requirements. A local woman pilot likes to tell of how she was rejected from Alaska Airlines because they thought that she was too short.

It seems crazy from today's perspective however in the past airlines screened heavily on physical attributes and less on pilot experience. Since discrimination laws have come into effect they hired just about anyone. People who are, fat, short, wear thick glasses or are disabled can even get hired now as commercial airline pilots. Old timers have had the maximum age pushed to 65 and probably will have it erased altogether in the next ten years.

What an age we now live in. As a result the airlines today have to use other measures to screen applicants like astronomical minimums for some and nepotism for others.

Skyhigh

In regards to the military pilot versus 30 cut off point, 30 was a real cut off for most carriers. Back then(in the early 70s) the obligation was 3 to 3.5 years after wings, at least Marines/navy, so you'd have a narrow window of opportunity after release. What you flew was of prime importance because the airlines weren't interested in certain airframes so recovery time was minimal. Keep in mind these were the days when stewardesses had to be gone by 35 and had to weigh less than the airplane.

Man I wish I could find some of this stuff and have hard data for you and many others here. It is difficult to find. Like I said before I do not have a researchers working for me to dig up references and factual data for every post. No one else is asked to do that either. On the occasion that I do have a reference most choose to ignore it anyway. Therefore you will either have to accept my statements or search it out for yourself.

Statement:

Up until the late 1980's legacy airlines turned all pilots away who were older than 30, had less than 20/20 vision and were not height and weight proportional.

DE727UPS has yet to deny it because he knows that it is an accurate statement. Why don't you ask him?

SkyHigh

I don't know why you l think I have a staff of researchers at my disposal either Sky or why I would waste my time looking up fcts to support YOUR statements. Kind of like law - you make the accusation - it is up to you to prove it. Maybe you should search the forums more outside of the 'Leaving the career' - where if others make factual statements like yours they are asked for references. I'll tell you what Sky - if I make factual statements like yours I will be sure to have some data outside of my own opinion to back it up. If you want to say that a person you know or a person you heard or a statememnt off of a another forum is reasearch then I came can up with my facts to refute yours.
The above has nothing to do with the military Sky. Quit dodging the question. to refresh you - we are not talking about about the 30 year old question or the 20/20 vision. I've laready said that I don't know one way or another. I asked you if it applied to the military poilots who stayed longer than one year or got out after multiple tours but before retirement.
The factual information I asked you for was your assertion that most military pilots got out after one tour to fly for the airlines. I even asked you for the scene out of the movie which you have not provided yet.

USMCFLYR

No USMC, it's a fact. If you watch "An Officier and a Gentlelman" Richard Gere's sargent major screams "Before any of you pleebs gets to United Airlines, you gotta get through me". Therefore, all military pilots back in those days just did one tour to get to the airlines. What more research do you want? Watch the movie....

No USMC, it's a fact. If you watch "An Officier and a Gentlelman" Richard Gere's sargent major screams "Before any of you pleebs gets to United Airlines, you gotta get through me". Therefore, all military pilots back in those days just did one tour to get to the airlines. What more research do you want? Watch the movie....

Well he says that only steers and queers come out of Oklahoma too - and we know that isn't true!:D

USMCFLYR

No USMC, it's a fact. If you watch "An Officier and a Gentlelman" Richard Gere's sargent major screams "Before any of you pleebs gets to United Airlines, you gotta get through me". Therefore, all military pilots back in those days just did one tour to get to the airlines. What more research do you want? Watch the movie....

Thanks DE727UPS! Yes, you got it. The Sargent didn't say "Before any of you pleebs gets to enjoy a 20 year career in the military, you gotta get through me"

What else could Louis Gosset Junior have meant by that statement? I realize that using a movie as evidence to the mindset of a small group of people in the past is obscure however I still think that it proves my point.

In any case I am very glad that you are having so much fun with it. :)

Skyhigh

I don't know why you l think I have a staff of researchers at my disposal either Sky or why I would waste my time looking up fcts to support YOUR statements. Kind of like law - you make the accusation - it is up to you to prove it. Maybe you should search the forums more outside of the 'Leaving the career' - where if others make factual statements like yours they are asked for references. I'll tell you what Sky - if I make factual statements like yours I will be sure to have some data outside of my own opinion to back it up. If you want to say that a person you know or a person you heard or a statememnt off of a another forum is reasearch then I came can up with my facts to refute yours.
The above has nothing to do with the military Sky. Quit dodging the question. to refresh you - we are not talking about about the 30 year old question or the 20/20 vision. I've laready said that I don't know one way or another. I asked you if it applied to the military poilots who stayed longer than one year or got out after multiple tours but before retirement.
The factual information I asked you for was your assertion that most military pilots got out after one tour to fly for the airlines. I even asked you for the scene out of the movie which you have not provided yet.

USMCFLYR

Before I could get to it thankfully DE727UPS came to the rescue. I just don't know how to satisfy you any further on this. I have proved it to my own satisfaction. Someone else even wrote a post in support of my statement. Hopefully that will be enough.

Skyhigh

Thanks DE727UPS! Yes, you got it. The Sargent didn't say "Before any of you pleebs gets to enjoy a 20 year career in the military, you gotta get through me"

What else could Louis Gosset Junior have meant by that statement? I realize that using a movie as evidence to the mindset of a small group of people in the past is obscure however I still think that it proves my point.

In any case I am very glad that you are having so much fun with it. :)

Skyhigh

:DThin - very thin Sky. Guess you never went through a military training program though did you? Guess you would understand anything about what a DI might or might not say. Yes - you should base your argument on what the Instructor said in a movie.
Also - that statement is even from the instructor. Not one pilot candidate said anything about trying to get into flight school so they could get out and join up to fly for United. So I take their silence to mean that each of them planned to make the military a career. How do you like my reasoning?
Rich Sky - almost as rich as the Indian food I had tonight for dinner! You win! All further evidence will now come from movies.

USMCFLYR

Before I could get to it thankfully DE727UPS came to the rescue. I just don't know how to satisfy you any further on this. I have proved it to my own satisfaction. Someone else even wrote a post in support of my statement. Hopefully that will be enough.

Skyhigh

No Sky - it is not enough. Are you saying that if I can find ONE pilot who defies your logic that it will be enough for you to change your mind?

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYER 1
SKYHIGH 1
Now for the tie breaker:)

Not one pilot candidate said anything about trying to get into flight school so they could get out and join up to fly for United.

Same at the USAF in 1970. Such a statement would have brought down the wrath of instructors and the scorn of classmates. There was a war on. Most of those who left active duty years later did so to avoid flying a desk, and only a few of them got and kept good airline jobs. Retaining your commission and joining a reserve unit were prudent moves in the years following deregulation.

I just wanted to say that yesterday I saw Clint Eastwoods new movie "Gran Torino" and thought it was pretty good.

Skyhigh

In the film Behind Enemy Lines, Gene Hackman's character very clearly discourages Owen Wilson's character from quitting his military aviation career to fly for the airlines.

Gee,, I just spent the last 15 minutes reading some of the stuff over on the regional forums. :confused: Why is it that DE727UPS and USMCFLYR are not over there shoring up all the bad sentiment and less than cheery posting that is going on over there.

They need you guys. Some of those posters are saying bad things about being an airline pilot. :( One guy even dared to compare military service to that of an airline pilot and he made the airline pilots life sound worse !!

Someone needs to do something. What if it spreads?

SKyHigh

In the film Behind Enemy Lines, Gene Hackman's character very clearly discourages Owen Wilson's character from quitting his military aviation career to fly for the airlines.

And considering the fact that Owen Wilson played an NFO ( Naval Flight Officer )( read NOT a pilot ) that entire dialogue in the movie is worthless and stupid and had they had a Military advisor worth a damn he wouldnt have let that line through.

FWIW... I love that movie.

Gee,, I just spent the last 15 minutes reading some of the stuff over on the regional forums. :confused: Why is it that DE727UPS and USMCFLYR are not over there shoring up all the bad sentiment and less than cheery posting that is going on over there.

They need you guys. Some of those posters are saying bad things about being an airline pilot. :( One guy even dared to compare military service to that of an airline pilot and he made the airline pilots life sound worse !!

Someone needs to do something. What if it spreads?

SKyHigh

I was wondering that myself. Some of those threads belong on this section of the forums.

I guess I could move some of those threads over here, but then they wouldn't get the same exposure.

In any case, again, Skyhigh seems to be begging for me to post. I'd rather just lurk until I see something I disagree with. Times are tough at the regionals these days. There will be much disillousionment and dissatisfaction. Those that stick with it will be the ones that might score a good job down the road. Whether the career is worthy of sticking with is up to each to decide, based on his personal situation.

Skyhigh once said it was his job to show the negative side of the career in spite of any evidence to the contrary. He will never make a positive post. It was the job of those who disagreed to counter otherwise his opinion becomes a fact. I find that laughable...

I don't think countering the negative news is always needed. People can decide the truth of their situation for themselves. To each his own.

Well he says that only steers and queers come out of Oklahoma too - and we know that isn't true!:D

USMCFLYR

It isn't? Did this change recently? I was in Oklahoma for a bit this summer and it still seemed in force then.

Hook 'Em Horns!:D

It isn't? Did this change recently? I was in Oklahoma for a bit this summer and it still seemed in force then.

Hook 'Em Horns!:D

Well this just says it all doesn't it :p
Btw - I'm an honorary in a rough sort of way.
I did the fly-over for the Texas-vs-Kansas game back in '05.
What a time out on the town after the game!

USMCFLYR

I guess I could move some of those threads over here, but then they wouldn't get the same exposure.

In any case, again, Skyhigh seems to be begging for me to post. I'd rather just lurk until I see something I disagree with. Times are tough at the regionals these days. There will be much disillousionment and dissatisfaction. Those that stick with it will be the ones that might score a good job down the road. Whether the career is worthy of sticking with is up to each to decide, based on his personal situation.

Skyhigh once said it was his job to show the negative side of the career in spite of any evidence to the contrary. He will never make a positive post. It was the job of those who disagreed to counter otherwise his opinion becomes a fact. I find that laughable...

I don't think countering the negative news is always needed. People can decide the truth of their situation for themselves. To each his own.

Should I take it as a complement then that I can't post something without your input? Why don't you jump in there and tell those guys in the regional forum how wrong they are? I mean they need you much more than I do. :) There should be volumes in there that you disagree with. Mostly they are complaining about the same issues that I have been writing about.

I especially like this quote from you: "Times are tough at the regionals these days. There will be much disillusionment and dissatisfaction. Those that stick with it will be the ones that might score a good job down the road". Might score a good job? If I were a quote saving kind of guy that one would be a gem. I would be more careful if I were you.

I am really beginning to get worried. How am I supposed to be able to post anything when every other post around here sounds like something I would have written?

Skyhigh

In the film Behind Enemy Lines, Gene Hackman's character very clearly discourages Owen Wilson's character from quitting his military aviation career to fly for the airlines.

I think Hackman's character (Reigart) was slamming Owen's Charater (Burnett) for wanting out because he does not like acting like a naval aviator, not so much flying the friendly skies in a bus.

SkyHigh,

I've said this before but I'll mention it again. You should leave this aviation thing behind you. Your compulsive need to belittle, reprimand and preach to any and all professional pilots is not healthy my friend. You've got some serious issues going on here.

Here are the facts.

You didn't make it to the show, not everybody does, tough luck.

Things have changed in the industry it does not affect you because you are out of it.

Your obsessive compulsive personality probably had more to do with you not making it than you think.

You are reportedly successful in life beyond your failed attempt at an aviation career. Congratulations you should be happy with that and leave this behind you haven't done so emotionally.

The industry didn't fail you, you failed at the industry. A deep and retrospective look at yourself is going to be very healthy. Crying out at everybody who has made it in the aviation world is not going to make you feel any better. If you can't do this by yourself get some professional help and put this painful episode behind you.

If you never cracked 40K in twenty years of flying my friend YOU were doing something very very wrong.

SkyHigh,

I've said this before but I'll mention it again. You should leave this aviation thing behind you. Your compulsive need to belittle, reprimand and preach to any and all professional pilots is not healthy my friend. You've got some serious issues going on here.

Here are the facts.

You didn't make it to the show, not everybody does, tough luck.

Things have changed in the industry it does not affect you because you are out of it.

Your obsessive compulsive personality probably had more to do with you not making it than you think.

You are reportedly successful in life beyond your failed attempt at an aviation career. Congratulations you should be happy with that and leave this behind you haven't done so emotionally.

The industry didn't fail you, you failed at the industry. A deep and retrospective look at yourself is going to be very healthy. Crying out at everybody who has made it in the aviation world is not going to make you feel any better. If you can't do this by yourself get some professional help and put this painful episode behind you.

If you never cracked 40K in twenty years of flying my friend YOU were doing something very very wrong.

I appreciate your concern however this forum is a hobby of mine. I enjoy writing about aviation and am still very passionate about it. Most of the people who venture here are either ex-airline pilots or wannabes. My presence here is not out of place.

I am happy that you were able to reach your career objectives, however, please don't try and insult me or my personality simply because I have a different, experience, perspective and opinion than you. There are plenty of people who venture here who share my opinions and appreciate my participation.

It is true that I have left my youthful dreams behind however I don't think that I will ever leave aviation behind. Besides I still have over 20 years of eligibility ahead of me and am not ready to count myself out. Aviation has plenty of ninth inning success stories. I still have plenty of time.

If you really know the keys to success in aviation and life then I wish you were around a few years ago to have helped me during a time when I needed it badly instead of trying to insult me now.

A few corrections:

1. I have never been accused of having an "obsessive compulsive personality" before though I know that the consideration is prevalent in aviation.

2. My peak income in aviation was $42,500 one year as a 757 first officer.

Skyhigh

If you never cracked 40K in twenty years of flying my friend YOU were doing something very very wrong.

It took me years to make just 52,000. ( that's because I was Fractional) Is there something wrong with me? You KNOW it's all luck and timing.

I appreciate your concern however this forum is a hobby of mine. I enjoy writing about aviation and am still very passionate about it. Most of the people who venture here are either ex-airline pilots or wannabes. My presence here is not out of place.

If you really know the keys to success in aviation and life then I wish you were around a few years ago to have helped me during a time when I needed it badly instead of trying to insult me now.

1. I have never been accused of having an "obsessive compulsive personality" before though I know that the consideration is prevalent in aviation.

2. My peak income in aviation was $42,500 one year as a 757 first officer.

Skyhigh

"I appreciate your concern however this forum is a hobby of mine. I enjoy writing about aviation and am still very passionate about it. Most of the people who venture here are either ex-airline pilots or wannabes. My presence here is not out of place."

There are a heck of a lot of current airline/cargo/military/corporate/you name it professional pilots on this site that you are constantly trying to "school" with your message of defeat and your joyous life story in the aviation after life. You don't write about aviation you write about how bad it sucked and how happy you are to be out of it.

"If you really know the keys to success in aviation and life then I wish you were around a few years ago to have helped me during a time when I needed it badly instead of trying to insult me now."

I have helped multiple people get into major airline seats. I have no idea who you are so how in the hell could I have helped you when you needed it? Even if I did know who you were based on your posts here I wouldn't have helped you. I don't waste my time ------. I save my efforts for people who are working hard AND have a positive attitude.

"1. I have never been accused of having an "obsessive compulsive personality" before though I know that the consideration is prevalent in aviation."

Go back and read your posts they are like a broken record. The same message OVER and OVER and OVER again it never changes. Maybe now that you know you can work on changing it.

"2. My peak income in aviation was $42,500 one year as a 757 first officer."

My comment about never making more than 40K a year after 20 years still applies. What the heck were you doing all that time?

From your attitude it is blatantly clear to me why you had the troubles that you did. If in fact you even are who you say. I am starting to doubt that as well.

It took me years to make just 52,000. ( that's because I was Fractional) Is there something wrong with me? You KNOW it's all luck and timing.

If you were flying professionally during the last 20 years you had the correct timing. Especially in the 90's. What you chose to do with it was your own business.

It took me years to make just 52,000. ( that's because I was Fractional) Is there something wrong with me? You KNOW it's all luck and timing.

If you were flying professionally during the last 20 years you had the correct timing. Especially in the 90's. What you chose to do with it was your own business.

My choice was to get hired by Alaska Airlines when I was still in my 20's. Things did not exactly turn out like I planed them to. We do not have control over most of what happens in aviation.

SkyHigh

I promised some #'s awhile back looks like ALPA has already done the work. APM145 steered me to the website clearedtodream.org.

I copied & pasted a few bits from the website enjoy. If you can bear ouch.:o


"Airline pilots, because of FAA regulations, cannot fly more than 100 hours a month or more than a total of 1000 hours per year. Most airline pilots average around 75 hours of flying a month. Pilots spend several hours each day between flights waiting for their aircraft or waiting for flight delays to clear. These duty hours are not paid. A 75-hour flight month may also have about 140 duty hours and approximately 360 hours away from base."

" • The average ALPA legacy captain is 52 years old with 21 years of service and earns about $155,000 annually.
• The average ALPA non-legacy captain is 49 years old with 16 years of service and earns about $144,000 annually.
• The average ALPA regional captain is 40 years old with 10 years of service and earns about $70,000 annually.
• The average ALPA cargo captain is 51 years old with 17 years of service and earns about $200,000 annually."

"• The average ALPA legacy first officer is 45 years old with 12 years of service and a yearly salary of about $105,000.
• The average ALPA non-legacy first officer is 42 years old with 6 years of service and a yearly salary of about $83,000.
• The average ALPA regional first officer is 32 years old with 3 years of service and a yearly salary of about $33,000.
• The average ALPA cargo first officer is 45 years old with 7 years of service and a yearly salary of about $121,000."

I promised some #'s awhile back looks like ALPA has already done the work. APM145 steered me to the website clearedtodream.org.

I copied & pasted a few bits from the website enjoy. If you can bear ouch.:o


"Airline pilots, because of FAA regulations, cannot fly more than 100 hours a month or more than a total of 1000 hours per year. Most airline pilots average around 75 hours of flying a month. Pilots spend several hours each day between flights waiting for their aircraft or waiting for flight delays to clear. These duty hours are not paid. A 75-hour flight month may also have about 140 duty hours and approximately 360 hours away from base."

" • The average ALPA legacy captain is 52 years old with 21 years of service and earns about $155,000 annually.
• The average ALPA non-legacy captain is 49 years old with 16 years of service and earns about $144,000 annually.
• The average ALPA regional captain is 40 years old with 10 years of service and earns about $70,000 annually.
• The average ALPA cargo captain is 51 years old with 17 years of service and earns about $200,000 annually."

"• The average ALPA legacy first officer is 45 years old with 12 years of service and a yearly salary of about $105,000.
• The average ALPA non-legacy first officer is 42 years old with 6 years of service and a yearly salary of about $83,000.
• The average ALPA regional first officer is 32 years old with 3 years of service and a yearly salary of about $33,000.
• The average ALPA cargo first officer is 45 years old with 7 years of service and a yearly salary of about $121,000."

Ouch? :) I might work 250+ duty hours a month and on some months may spend the same amount of time at least "away from base" and most of the numbers above are more than I make with less years of work *experience*:eek:

USMCFLYR

Ouch? :) I might work 250+ duty hours a month and on some months may spend the same amount of time at least "away from base" and most of the numbers above are more than I make with less years of work *experience*:eek:

USMCFLYR

I'm sorry to hear that. Course you get housing allowances medical etc. and fly an F-18 it's still not enough though. Especially considering your expertise and sacrifice. Best of luck.:cool:

I'm sorry to hear that. Course you get housing allowances medical etc. and fly an F-18 it's still not enough though. Especially considering your expertise and sacrifice. Best of luck.:cool:

We would all like more of course....but I'm not complaining. I am very fortunate right now - and have been fortunate in the past. I chose this profession, was lucky enough to end up where I did through hard work, perseverence, and some luck sprinkled on top; but I was looking at soley the pay -vs- experience aspect of the informative post above and I was also just comparing the post's average salaries with a military LES. I'm sure that there are many other details on both sides of the fence that would change the numbers at least slightly.

USMCFLYR

Keep in mind that there are plenty of people out there, in non flying jobs, wishing they made $70K, or $87K. There are plenty of people out there right now, just like pilots, struggling, or recently laid off, with no job prospects, at the moment. The grass isn't really any greener. If you don't like the airline pilot career, due to the lifestyle, that is all good, as it isn't for everybody. BUT, realistically, from an income standpoint, if anybody thinks that the average American is making six figures, or even $70-80K, you are wrong. If it were that easy to make so much money, than we wouldn't be in the economic mess we are in, and people wouldn't be worried about losing their jobs, because that six figure job is right there, waiting for them.

You might can get a job making $35-40K right from the start, working for a bank, but where are you, in that job, 5-10 years down the road? Realistically, probably not making six figures. I know tons of people who work out there in corporate America, who are struggling to climb the corporate ladder, who have been working in their respective careers for 10+ years, and are pulling down the same kind of salaries that young 20-something RJ captains are making, after just several years.

There are ups and downs in any career. The airline pilot career isn't all rosey, and glamerous, like some may think, and it may not be the $500K/year career some seem to obviously have gotten into it for, but it isn't any more worse off than the average American, in their careers, either. Do a quick google of average American salaries, and you may be surprised; some of you seem to think that huge salaries, and stable jobs are plentiful in the non flying world. A lot of people are wishing that was true, at the moment.

There are ups and downs in any career. The airline pilot career isn't all rosey, and glamerous, like some may think, and it may not be the $500K/year career some seem to obviously have gotten into it for, but it isn't any more worse off than the average American, in their careers, either. Do a quick google of average American salaries, and you may be surprised; some of you seem to think that huge salaries, and stable jobs are plentiful in the non flying world. A lot of people are wishing that was true, at the moment.

My MBA counterparts have significantly out earned myself thru the years. Time will tell if I ever catch up on the QOL & compensation equation. Given education & skill set requirements for the job I don't think pilots are average american workers but that's just me.