Airline Pilot Forums

Hi guys,

I know this site is primarily for pilots, but, unfortunately there aren't any decent site for A&Ps to talk about some of these issues.

I'm 26, I have a B.S. in aviaiton technology (specialization in avionics), my A&P license and a PPL w/ 400hrs. After graduating, I worked at an FBO as a mechanic for 3 years- I learned a lot, I was lucky enough to do alot of the test flights coming out of annual, but I became tired of being poor and having no benefits. Yes- aviation is the same on the Mx side of things. I do farm with the family, on the side, but the operation isn't large enough to support me full time yet.

I now work as a QA person at a company that does a lot of military aircraft contracts and manufacturing. I now live in a cubicle half the time and the other half I'm on the floor. Like everyone else here,I did not get into avation to push papers around. I'd much rather be outside, not at a desk.

When I came into aviation I had every intention of eventually flying for the airlines. I couldn't afford to finish my ratings until now. But now, seeing all the turmoil with the aviation industry I don't I want to be part of this mess (aviation) anymore. I mean not only are the airlines getting hammered but so is corporate/fractional aviation. I really have no desire to work on airplanes anymore (other than if I buy my own) because of the p!ss poor pay, big liability and the FAA is becoming more stringent on the Mx side. If there's anyonehere thinking to go this route (Mx) to get through the recession- I would recommend against it.

I guess what I'm asking is: Does anyone have any good ideas for a person with my qualifications for jobs outside of aviation? ( I thought about the railroad, but they aren't hiring too much now) Or, jobs in aviation that I haven't thought of that aren't just paper pushers (I know that there's always a little paper-pushing at every job though).

Well everyone, thanks for your input!

Use your skills and abilities to get into green technology. You could be a windmill technician or become a specialist in geothermal heating and cooling. There are schools poping up all over the country that are offering training in those areas.

Skyhigh

Think power plant, like power companies, steam turbines, hydro, windmills, all the same tech. If you're ambitious, think nuke plant, they're REALLY hiring. I'm pretty sure one in Tennessee is hiring like crazy. (sorry, no links)

Also anything with complex systems, like amusement parks (sadly, they are also laying off).

CE

Thanks SkyHigh and Crimson for your input. It's a real shame that we are all in this situation. I'm the biggest airplane/aviation nut ever, but, I've realized to stay in aviation- you almost have to get out of it (If that makes any sense). I don't know about the pilot side- but it seems that the vast majority of A&P's are looking for a way out- is that just me or is it everywhere else in the industry/counry?

I didnt really think about nuclear power plants. Anyone know about training for that?

One thing that really sucks about aviation Mx (and aviation in general) is the way the general public percieves aviation. It's hard to convince a person that you really want out because it's so "interesting" or "high paying". I've talked to a few people that have tried to get out and it's hard to get an interview because of these false perceptions- HR people think you'll skip as soon as a aviation job opens. Does anyone have any ideas how to overcome this?

Anyone have any suggestions about writing resume's for outside aviation? Are those resume' writers worth it?

Thanks everyone.

Thanks SkyHigh and Crimson for your input. It's a real shame that we are all in this situation. I'm the biggest airplane/aviation nut ever, but, I've realized to stay in aviation- you almost have to get out of it (If that makes any sense). I don't know about the pilot side- but it seems that the vast majority of A&P's are looking for a way out- is that just me or is it everywhere else in the industry/counry?

I didnt really think about nuclear power plants. Anyone know about training for that?

One thing that really sucks about aviation Mx (and aviation in general) is the way the general public percieves aviation. It's hard to convince a person that you really want out because it's so "interesting" or "high paying". I've talked to a few people that have tried to get out and it's hard to get an interview because of these false perceptions- HR people think you'll skip as soon as a aviation job opens. Does anyone have any ideas how to overcome this?

Anyone have any suggestions about writing resume's for outside aviation? Are those resume' writers worth it?

Thanks everyone.

Be honest. I usually mention the hiring/layoff cycle and chronic instability. Anyone who watches TV will understand.

As for nuke plants, several are coming online and they are hiring. I don't have specifics but a quick search should find a bunch. I just don't feel like moving to Tennessee, yet.

CE

Howdy Crimson Eclipse,
Sorry to hear your job is a bummer. I hope you are able to find something better in whatever field you choose. I don't have any input on writing resumes, other than it helps to have others critique them before sending them out.
As far as aviation goes, have you really decided to get out? Seems there's still some pretty good and interesting opportunities on the aviation maintenance side out there even with the crummy market. Have you tried looking at the website JS Firm? Pretty interesting stuff on there as far as the mx side.
Best wishes.

Kilgore,

I think you meant me on your last post-

As far as getting out of aviation- I'm almost 100% sure I'm getting out of the Mx side and about 75% sure about getting out of aviation as a career. And yes, I've really checked it out. I've exhausted all of my contacts in aviation. Now, with the economy the way it is, it will be a while before things pick up in all sectors.

Even in good economic times people in the Mx side of things are the lowest paid within the aviation industry (well other than like line guys or a/c cleaners). Imagine getting paid only a little more than a co-pilot at a regional and being responsible for a repair you made on an aircraft or a part you installed until that airplane is turned into beer cans.

I'm curious, Kilgore- do you work as a mechanic?

Actually, I have looked at J.S. Firm before. Indirectly I found my current job through that site (I applied for a different job, but was offered this one). Luckily I'm getting some experience that is transferable outside of airplanes.

Howdy 4440driver,
Sorry about the confusion on screen names.
Yup, I'm an A+P/I.A. and commercial pilot in Alaska. That and $1.00 will usually get me a cup of coffee.
It seems to work pretty well up here. Definate shortage of A+P's. Not so much on pilots right now. In fact wrenching this summer instead of flying.
Pay is ok. No benefits. Seasonal probably. I hear you about security issues for the future in aviation in general. I sometimes get pretty bummed out about it.

I still do some wrenching, too- only part-time though.

As far as the shortage of mechanics- I hear that a lot and I also see it, but I have not seen an increase of pay. Supply and demand would dictate that wages go up, at least in theory.

When I graduated A&P school- we had one of the smallest classes ever. From what I hear they are getting smaller, too. Just a few years ago a prominant school in the area shut down because of lack of enrollment.

It also amazes me that the BLS still lists A&P's as "unskilled labor". When I heard that- I was floored. Perhaps partially the cause of the low pay? - I just don't know.

Just a few weeks ago I had a laid-off Lear driver come in the shop (where I work part-time) and asked about getting a job in Mx. I informed him of the pay and everything and he just said "oh". I hate to "run" someone off like that, but, I gave him the truthful picture of what this side of the industry is like. I also told him that working on them is a very poor substitute for flying- if flying is really what you want to do.

4440driver,
Yup, you're right about pay. From what I've seen in AK since 1997 it has not really gone up. Generally lower end is about $20 an hour and seems to increase slightly based on experience on AK types of airplanes and one's willingness to live in the "bush". I'm making $24 an hour this summer in case you want to know. Pretty good company. If anything, wrenching can bes seen as a way to get one's foot in the door of a company that one is interested in flying for someday.
On the plus side, if you work for the right company, you can fly in the summer and wrench in the winter- I've done that several years.
Potential drawbacks include the possibility of being held in the hangar until everything is squared away, enough summer mechanics are in place, etc...
Generally from what I've seen, pilots make more here than mechanics. That's with the caveat that the pilot's duty day is generally longer- up to 14 hours in a 24 hour period.
Had medical/dental/401k at one job many moons ago, but that came with the condition of working night shift in the summer because the planes flew all day. Nights are a bummer. Did five summers of that and just had to get out of there.
I've got a killer resume for AK, but found that with my lack of multi/turbine time I was not in a very good spot for anything outside of AK flying wise. I do like wrenching though. I like knowing a bit about the airplanes, and it is a pretty good fallback when, like this summer, I did not want to take the flying jobs that were available up here.
Honestly, I do not really see myself really able to do much else in at least the near future besides AK stuff.
Not that I'm complaining, it is from what I've seen, some really great aviation, and great people involved in it for the most part.

Have you thought about turning wrenches in the maritime industry?

If I ever end up getting out of aviation I am going to follow in my dads foot steps and become a maritime engineer.

Hello Kilgore,

Perhaps I am saying this because I don't actually know what it's like, but my ideal job/career would be one where I can fly and a mechanic. I'm 22, almost about to finish a 4 yr degree in "Aviation Systems Management" (whatever that means), have A&P certificates, been working all the big Airbus & Boeings for a line maintenance contracting company specializing in internationals for about 2 years, with a few months of general aviation exp, and part time as a flight simulator maint tech....but am eagerly long overdue to get pilot ratings....does your company, or any you know of any in AK, or anywhere else for that matter where you can exchange working as an A&P for flight training?

Best regards,
Barry in NYC

Howdy Barry,
Sounds like you've got a lot of good experience. Congratulations on being just about done with your four year degree too. You've been busy!
As far as companies in AK or elsewhere that would offer you flight training in exchange for A+P work- I do not know of any, there is a flight school in Anchorage called Take Flight Alaska though that I seem to remember was looking for A+P's a while back. I'm thinking most AK 135 operators are going to want already trained pilots on their staff. I'm sure it's possible somewhere though, and sounds like a good idea. I would be cautious about a sort of under the table trade of work for training because that could maybe cause problems with taxes and workman's comp stuff if you were hurt at work (I had to put that in there, sorry).
Maybe a better way would be to find a flight school that would pay you normally for your full or part time work on their planes and that offers a discount on flight training/aircraft rental to it's employees?
Good luck and best wishes for your future.

On the subject of A&P liscense, Im presently working as an aircraft technician and I will surely love to have this liscense. I have been told that the minimum requirements are 18 months of on the job or 'field' experience. Am I eligible to do the A&P liscense if I have 12 months of practical work experience together with an engineering MAsters degree and other working experience as an engineer?

Regards

Elevator repair company's like A&P's, i hear they pay 45/hrish.

is that US$?

is that US$?

Hershey's Kisses actually :D

I have been trying to get out of the piloting life and go back to A and P work - having a difficult time as the pilot experience is overshadowing any and all aircraft maintenance work I have done. Seems all I am getting is "we won't hire a pilot" or "I am afraid you will leave after a short time to go back to flying". I lost my job as a pilot - company went out of business - and although I have years of flying and mechanic experience - none of it seems to count enough to actually get a job that pays sufficiently to afford a rental house. I would go the elevator repairman route - at least you get to go - up and down and get paid for it ! I did work as a pilot/mechanic for one company years ago - seems that is a thing of the past ?

When I first walked in and talked to someone about starting A&P school, first thing they did was to show me a paper on the salaries of A&Ps and how much they make. My girlfriend was saying that I'd be so much better off salary wise as wrench turner. I knew it was bs, but I started anyways because I want to do warbird restorations. I'm 3 months in to it, so I'll finish it.

Shame on u, giving up on the dream. I have an A&P,ATP,CFII and MEI, worked as a lead mech for a legacy, but gave it all up to fly (a piston not a jet) took a 72% pay cut lost a wife. But will never give up on the dream....where is my drink.

Shame on u, giving up on the dream. I have an A&P,ATP,CFII and MEI, worked as a lead mech for a legacy, but gave it all up to fly (a piston not a jet) took a 72% pay cut lost a wife. But will never give up on the dream....where is my drink.

Next time you are wherever I'm at KIGONYE- I'll buy you a dang ol' drink, and we'll look for some new wives together! I reckon we could start in some of my favorite Southeast U.S. gentlemen's clubs. I got pre-approved for a new credit card.
Sicerely, K.T. (Not as many ratings/certificates/responsibilities as you've got, but similar experience, with I.A. privileges ta' boot)
Note- I'm not sure where I'll be at anytime soon. Which is kinda lame. Maybe I'll just go back to hibernating.

I have been trying to get out of the piloting life and go back to A and P work - having a difficult time as the pilot experience is overshadowing any and all aircraft maintenance work I have done. Seems all I am getting is "we won't hire a pilot" or "I am afraid you will leave after a short time to go back to flying". I lost my job as a pilot - company went out of business - and although I have years of flying and mechanic experience - none of it seems to count enough to actually get a job that pays sufficiently to afford a rental house. I would go the elevator repairman route - at least you get to go - up and down and get paid for it ! I did work as a pilot/mechanic for one company years ago - seems that is a thing of the past ?

If you are trying to find work as a pilot then don't tell them that you are also a mechanic because you will end up changing oil instead. And, if you are trying to find work as an A&P then don't tell them that you are a pilot because they will not hire you out of fear that you will leave once you find another flying job.

As far as I know there is nothing wrong with leaving information out of a resume. People embellish their work history all the time. Sometimes it is important to leave stuff off as well.

Skyhigh

If you are trying to find work as a pilot then don't tell them that you are also a mechanic because you will end up changing oil instead. And, if you are trying to find work as an A&P then don't tell them that you are a pilot because they will not hire you out of fear that you will leave once you find another flying job.

As far as I know there is nothing wrong with leaving information out of a resume. People embellish their work history all the time. Sometimes it is important to leave stuff off as well.

Skyhigh

Everybody's gotta do what they've gotta do, but based on my personal experience in AK, I don't know if I agree with this Sky. I think what I'd say is that if you are hired as a Pilot/Mechanic you might end up flying AND changing the oil. Depends on the employer for sure, and their staffing situation, but I think having the A+P is a definate plus for Alaska pilot job prospects. Especially in the winter as many outfits shrink their pilot rolls and need mechanics to do or help with their aircraft's annual inspections.
My last seasonal job this summer was wrenching, not flying. The DOM there made it a point to ask me if I was committed to doing a summer season in the hangar, and not moaning and groaning about not flying. Did what I had to do, and tried to stay somewhat in the flying currency by flying my Cub when I could afford the avgas.
Anyway, good luck out there job seekers.

If you are trying to find work as a pilot then don't tell them that you are also a mechanic because you will end up changing oil instead. And, if you are trying to find work as an A&P then don't tell them that you are a pilot because they will not hire you out of fear that you will leave once you find another flying job.

As far as I know there is nothing wrong with leaving information out of a resume. People embellish their work history all the time. Sometimes it is important to leave stuff off as well.

Skyhigh

HAHA true that if i had a dollar for every time i heard "Yeah well get ya some flying"

Everybody's gotta do what they've gotta do, but based on my personal experience in AK, I don't know if I agree with this Sky. I think what I'd say is that if you are hired as a Pilot/Mechanic you might end up flying AND changing the oil. Depends on the employer for sure, and their staffing situation, but I think having the A+P is a definate plus for Alaska pilot job prospects. Especially in the winter as many outfits shrink their pilot rolls and need mechanics to do or help with their aircraft's annual inspections.
My last seasonal job this summer was wrenching, not flying. The DOM there made it a point to ask me if I was committed to doing a summer season in the hangar, and not moaning and groaning about not flying. Did what I had to do, and tried to stay somewhat in the flying currency by flying my Cub when I could afford the avgas.
Anyway, good luck out there job seekers.

All I am really trying to say is to try and match your resume to the expectations of the employer. Sometimes it means leaving stuff out.

Skyhigh

Roger that Sky!

All I am really trying to say is to try and match your resume to the expectations of the employer. Sometimes it means leaving stuff out.

Skyhigh

My A&P has gotten me 2 jobs in the past year, one at Dynamic Aviation, which i quit 6 months later cause you wrench 70% of the time and the wrenching you do is pathetic and i couldn't stand the people there. I have 4 years experience on 1900's, 99's, and king airs now im overseas on a 1900/B200 job.

Just have to Find someone that appreciates the experience you have, having a A&P is worthless if you have no experience, I thought id have better luck in Alaska with a few 1900 operators up there.

I will be glad when i just put my A&P on my resume to kind of make up for my lack of a 4 year degree, and not be expected to turn a wrench.

As long as they pay by the license.
If they want and pilot AND a mechanic, then they pay for BOTH the pilot AND mechanic.

I didn't get my A+P just to give it away.

Something to consider is switching careers to automotive servicing.
Better pay, most work during daytime hours and have weekends offs.
Can work in any town, big or small.

Still hard work.

Very interesting article. I had a job offer at Dynamic Aviation and turned it town due to the 75% wrenching and 25% flying. they made it sounds like you barely keep currency. I am a CFI/A&P and live in minnesota. there is nothing out there for flying. I JUST moved back from Hawaii 2 days ago to take a job at skydive kauai and quit 1.5 weeks after arriving because the logbooks were missing, stuff was completely unairworthy and broken and corroded (huge list), owner did not want to do anything with it) and now the feds have an investigation over it because I called them with my concerns, even they were floored at my descriptions. Thank God I reviewed the maint. side before I flew it. the owner was incredibly cheap and did many illegal things, would not work with what was the legal way and peoples lives are at risk because of this cheapness.
One day he will be at the end of a hospital bed saying...If i had only.....

Anyways, I have been thinking about becoming a firefighter or doing something until the pilot market picks up and renting an aircraft for hours until I meet requirements. like you said 4440, Mx offers little to no money anymore. it would be great to find a good place to work with good pay, but it seems like "paying your dues for now" is almost impractical because its worse than its ever been. how can we afford this? How frustrating is this.... so P.O.'ed, now I am unemployed because some jerk wanted to cut so many corners and all we are doing is the right thing. Dang this makes me mad. there is hardly anything out there. Tired of moving and getting burned.

Frustrated

But we stay positive! Because our futures diminish themselves by being negative :)

Aviator,
Sorry about your experience at the skydive outfit. Saw them advertising just a few days ago. Ugh.
Have you looked at the jsfirm website? -seems there's lots of A+P jobs on there. It's free too.

No i have not looked at that website. You can be betting that when I am done typing this I will :) thanks trout