Airline Pilot Forums

Someone posted this on our board so I thought I would share. The two graphs at the bottom are the real sad news.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/graphic/2009-06/47424652.jpg

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi090610carriers_wgfx,0,5963919.htmlpage

I guess we know who the expensive regionals are now too.

Good post, it settles alot of disputes.

And someone had already posted this on this site

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/40994-regional-airline-operating-costs.html

Well no surprise there, the crappy regionals are cheaper.

Also that UA likes cheap regionals.

We are watching the transformation of this industry happening right before our eyes. It is just a microcosm of the outsourcing mentality that exists today. And as much as we all might complain about it, pilots will still take the jobs, mainline furloughees will slip into those seats for a fraction of the pay and the airplanes will be as adequately staffed as ever with a surplus of resumes in the HR person's stack.

I mentioned it once before. The numbers might not be very accurate. Looks at US Air vs. DAL. Also I would never believe ASA is the most expensive of everyone.

PDT scored n/a because the hospital bills from the illegally prepared crew meals offset the crew member's incomes.

this is not good news for asa. dont we have until next year to be the second lowest cost carrier. we're not even close.

Way to steal my thunder Air Support.....just when i finally put up a decent thread....you gotta show complete disregard for mine and post yours instead.... :p

good God, look at Colgan

We are watching the transformation of this industry happening right before our eyes. It is just a microcosm of the outsourcing mentality that exists today. And as much as we all might complain about it, pilots will still take the jobs, mainline furloughees will slip into those seats for a fraction of the pay and the airplanes will be as adequately staffed as ever with a surplus of resumes in the HR person's stack.

Yup. It's hard to picture how there will even be a mainline/legacy presence in domestic flying in ten years, save for transcons.

good God, look at Colgan

My attention was drawn to AA. All other legacies at $258/hr to $278/hr, then AA stumbles in at $350/hr. That is 35% higher than DAL's $258/hr.

What an interesting graphic. Of course, I don't know whether "hourly cost per pilot" really measures economic viability, but if it does, it really is difficult to see how Adam Smith's "invisible hand" will allow the legacies to remain in the domestic market. AA's $350/hr. versus Eagle's $140/hr and Skywest's $127/hr does not bode well for AA and other legacies.

Way to steal my thunder Air Support.....just when i finally put up a decent thread....you gotta show complete disregard for mine and post yours instead.... :p

lol, my bad man. didn't know you had one up. maybe they will tag mine to yours. i am not to proud to defer to the original poster. :)

Yep.........that's the future all right.

Nothing can stop it now.

It says the average regional pilot makes $62,000 after five years compared to $87,000 at a legacy. That logic is assuming the regional pilot is a captain and the legacy pilot is a first officer. That is flawed logic as the regionals are done growing. We could have 15 year first officers at the regionals that are working now.

It says the average regional pilot makes $62,000 after five years compared to $87,000 at a legacy. That logic is assuming the regional pilot is a captain and the legacy pilot is a first officer. That is flawed logic as the regionals are done growing. We could have 15 year first officers at the regionals that are working now.

I don't know about that. I would bet that any growth in the U.S. airline industry comes at the regional level, as regionals swallow more and more of the domestic system.

You need to remember it includes "Training Costs".... how many of you have ever visited the AMR Training Center?

The AMR pilot costs probably have more to do with the expansive, gi-ganta-normous training center / small city / they have built to train their pilots at.

Google Map it...
4501 Highway 360 South, Fort Worth, TX‎
The flight attendant training center is on the south side of FAA Road.

Well no surprise there, the crappy regionals are cheaper.

Don't jump to conclusions. AWAC is one of the lower in crew costs because they have an all 50 seat fleet. But if you look at their pay and contract, you will see they are one of the leaders.

We are watching the transformation of this industry happening right before our eyes. It is just a microcosm of the outsourcing mentality that exists today. And as much as we all might complain about it, pilots will still take the jobs, mainline furloughees will slip into those seats for a fraction of the pay and the airplanes will be as adequately staffed as ever with a surplus of resumes in the HR person's stack.


That's pretty melodramatic. :rolleyes:
RJs have simply outgrown themselves, 50 seaters in paticular, and with fuel going up they have once again become less economical. Many of the 76 seaters were a result of BK, which is now more difficult to file. I don't think you will see management be able to repeat the concessions forced on many pilot gproups in the last 5-7 years. That includes scope erosion.

I don't know about that. I would bet that any growth in the U.S. airline industry comes at the regional level, as regionals swallow more and more of the domestic system.


I think we've seen enough of this. Many have seen enough of their jobs disappear to cheaper regionals, & are ready to put a stop to it.

I think we've seen enough of this. Many have seen enough of their jobs disappear to cheaper regionals, & are ready to put a stop to it.

I'm with you. I'm just pessimistic about a labor component's ability to reverse undeniable market and economic forces.

I think we've seen enough of this. Many have seen enough of their jobs disappear to cheaper regionals, & are ready to put a stop to it.

Because people sitting in the seat next to them gave up scope to regionals at some point to save their own tails. The state of the industry right now has a number of contributing factors...

Nobody's happy about it. Hopefully those that have been put out at the major level by their own counterparts come to their senses. While jumpseating on a mainline flight the crew I got talking. The captain, a fairly senior gent, stated how he would never fly an RJ no matter how big it is. The FO was on the other end of the spectrum, saying how he can't believe that regionals have anything more than 50 seat aircraft.

Regionals are no longer "regionals". Much of North America can be reached by an RJ from a domestic hub now-a-days. I sit right sit in CRJ-900 that has replaced a number of old mainline routes. Why? Old school pilots didn't want the flying when it was on their plate. Now we're all getting the shaft.

I for one would love to see mainline pilots re-claim regional flying. A lot of folks with have to swallow their pride and put their ego aside for this to happen. CRJ7/900s, EMB170(190 NOW!?!) do not belong at regionals. It will only better the future of the industry for both regional and mainline pilots to return the flying to where it belongs.

I realize this is a ramble of a post, excuse the grammar and think about the points:cool:

Because people sitting in the seat next to them gave up scope to regionals at some point to save their own tails. The state of the industry right now has a number of contributing factors...

Nobody's happy about it. Hopefully those that have been put out at the major level by their own counterparts come to their senses. While jumpseating on a mainline flight the crew I got talking. The captain, a fairly senior gent, stated how he would never fly an RJ no matter how big it is. The FO was on the other end of the spectrum, saying how he can't believe that regionals have anything more than 50 seat aircraft.

Regionals are no longer "regionals". Much of North America can be reached by an RJ from a domestic hub now-a-days. I sit right sit in CRJ-900 that has replaced a number of old mainline routes. Why? Old school pilots didn't want the flying when it was on their plate. Now we're all getting the shaft.

I for one would love to see mainline pilots re-claim regional flying. A lot of folks with have to swallow their pride and put their ego aside for this to happen. CRJ7/900s, EMB170(190 NOW!?!) do not belong at regionals. It will only better the future of the industry for both regional and mainline pilots to return the flying to where it belongs.

I realize this is a ramble of a post, excuse the grammar and think about the points:cool:

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm also not denying that there are Mainline pilots that have the I'll never fly an RJ mentality. I for one don't think the CRJ900 is an RJ. I think of it as a DC9 with a smaller cabin. ;) I want it at Mainline, just like the E170/190.

It should say Chautauqua/Midwest

Don't jump to conclusions. AWAC is one of the lower in crew costs because they have an all 50 seat fleet. But if you look at their pay and contract, you will see they are one of the leaders.


Wow, somebody drinks the koolaid

this is not good news for asa. dont we have until next year to be the second lowest cost carrier. we're not even close.


This figure is just pilot cost and doesn't account for all the other costs involved. ASA has been working on there cost for some time now and i'm sure they have significantly reduced them from what they were. Skywest would be the same if they had as many lifers as ASA does.

RAISE TICKET PRICES!!!!!!!! End of story. The public just like a gas hike will still pay it......Only way to save us all.

Truer words were never spoken, Magee. Well typed anyway. :)

I don't know about that. I would bet that any growth in the U.S. airline industry comes at the regional level, as regionals swallow more and more of the domestic system.

That would be the correct assessment.

Overall, the domestic market will contract just as the International market is also doing. I would expect the regional level to grow fairly modestly while the domestic mainline level to shrink substantially.

The overwhelming remainder of the 50-seat or less RJ's will eventually be replaced by single class 70-seaters or 85 seat aircraft configured to perhaps 75-80 in mixed class. That will be the growth/replacement of the domestic market over the next 5-7 years. Wheras the tired old 737-300's and S-80's will be retired. The smallest aircraft for mailine fleets will be the 737-800 or A-320 which is up around 145 seats.

That's where we are at, that's where we are going and unfortunately nothing can stop that. Over the next few years there will be some labor heartburn over this, but ultimately the reality that is already here will be realized.

I'm with you. I'm just pessimistic about a labor component's ability to reverse undeniable market and economic forces.

Your pessimism is well founded. It's FAR to late to reinvent the domestic landscape now. Labor cannot stop what is already here. As of right now, RJ's comprise 50% of the domestic market. All that will happen is that those aircraft will become slightly larger and perhaps swallow another 10-15% at most. BUT, comprised with a reduction of overall capacity in the domestic system, that will mean the mainline portion will have to contract noticably. Anger alone will not change this.

They're are plenty of tired and rickety old 737's, DC-9's and MD-80's out there to be parked and sent to 2nd tier freight companies or acquired by Budwiser and Miller beer, so unfortunately the current capacity at the domestic mainline level is ripe for trimming.

Wow, somebody drinks the koolaid


Hes not drinkin Koolaid dude....hes right....as pathetic as our contract is...its still one of the best out there