Airline Pilot Forums

Does a flight from "Start -> VOR 1 -> VOR 2 -> VOR 3 -> Stop" count as ATP cross country, or do you have to go 50NM from your start/stop location? What about "Start -> VOR 1 -> VOR 3 -> Stop"?

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4369/51079315.png (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/51079315.png/)

There is no definition of cross country in the ATP requirements. In the PVT and COM the regs talk about a straight line distance between the takeoff and landing locations.

There is no definition of cross country in the ATP requirements. In the PVT and COM the regs talk about a straight line distance between the takeoff and landing locations.
There has to be some definition. A lot of people say 50 NM, but you don't have to land, unlike the part 135 rules where you have to land, but it doesn't have to be 50 NM.

There is no definition of cross country in the ATP requirements. In the PVT and COM the regs talk about a straight line distance between the takeoff and landing locations.

Read 61.1(3).

PPL, CP, IR require a LDG 50Nm straight-line from the point of departure.

ATP requires flight 50NM straight-line from departure, but no LDG. This was done to give military guys credit for some long flights which always return to base, without landing anywhere.

Part 135 requires a LDG, but no set distance.

For the original poster, that flight would only count for ATP XC if the distance between the airport and VOR 2 is 50+ NM. The trigonometry does not look like it would work.

Read 61.1(3).

PPL, CP, IR require a LDG 50Nm straight-line from the point of departure.

ATP requires flight 50NM straight-line from departure, but no LDG. This was done to give military guys credit for some long flights which always return to base, without landing anywhere.

Part 135 requires a LDG, but no set distance.

For the original poster, that flight would only count for ATP XC if the distance between the airport and VOR 2 is 50+ NM. The trigonometry does not look like it would work.

Lets say VOR 1 was an airport that you did a touch and go at. The same for VOR 3. If this were the case, then a flight from "Start -> Airport 1 -> Airport 3 -> End" would indeed count towards the commercial/private/instrument XC requirement, because all thats required for those flights is a leg that consists of 50 NM or greater.

If you're indeed correct in saying that a 50NM ring originating from the point of departure must be 'broken' for it to count towards ATP XC, then this means that all flights that you have done while getting your commercial/private/instrument will not necessarily count towards the ATP, since the 50NM 'ring' is not a requirement for them, strictly speaking.

This is something that I just now realized, and don't think is very widely known.

Lets say VOR 1 was an airport that you did a touch and go at. The same for VOR 3. If this were the case, then a flight from "Start -> Airport 1 -> Airport 3 -> End" would indeed count towards the commercial/private/instrument XC requirement, because all thats required for those flights is a leg that consists of 50 NM or greater.

If you're indeed correct in saying that a 50NM ring originating from the point of departure must be 'broken' for it to count towards ATP XC, then this means that all flights that you have done while getting your commercial/private/instrument will not necessarily count towards the ATP, since the 50NM 'ring' is not a requirement for them, strictly speaking.

This is something that I just now realized, and don't think is very widely known.
Huh?

==============================
61.1(b)(3) Cross-country time means -
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements ... for a private pilot certificate ... a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating... time acquired during a flight--
...
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
...

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate ... time acquired during a flight -
...
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
...
==============================


The only difference between the two is that for the private, commercial and instrument, there has to be a landing and for the ATP a landing isn't required.
Otherwise the definitions for the two are identical.

How would a flight with a landing >50 NM away not qualify as a flight >50 NM away without a landing?

And where does anyone see a requirement for a 50 NM leg anywhere in those deifintions?

INTERNET PILOT - your scenario dies not qualify as a cross country for either the private/commercial/instrument or for the ATP. With or without a landing, at no point are you a straight-line distance >50 NM from your original point of departure.

yeah, leg length or total length of flight is irrelevant. It is all based on DISTANCE from the DEPARTURE point. Draw a 50NM ring around the departure airport, then fly outside that ring.

For an ATP, you are done. The flight counts regardless of where you go or what you do after that.

For PPL, CPL, IR you need to land somewhere before you fly back into the ring. Touch-and-go's are a grey area here, best to do a at least a stop-and-go.

Once you leave the ring, you do not need to go back inside...ie you could land and spend the night (or weekend, or whatever).

Also be aware that the FAA may not want you to do a 51NM XC flight, do airwork for two hours, and then log the whole flight as XC. It's not defined by the regs that you have to be "enroute" the whole time, but use your judgment here. A few practice stalls or slow flight enroute would be OK but probably not extended airwork in a practice area.

Rickair -

For PPL, CPL, IR you need to land somewhere before you fly back into the ring. Touch-and-go's are a grey area here, best to do a at least a stop-and-go.

Earlier you said this:
Part 135 requires a LDG, but no set distance.

I certainly would have considered a T&G meeting that requirement.
BTW - I wasn't even as smart on the FARs as this forum has made me when I figured time for the ATP and I only used what I thought was the more conservative time to use which was the 50 nm range with a landing. I have seen now that I was mistaken. I'm curious about this grey matter of T&G -vs- full stop landing though; how about a roll-n-go? More than a T&G but less than a full stop.

USMCFLYR

yeah, leg length or total length of flight is irrelevant. It is all based on DISTANCE from the DEPARTURE point. Draw a 50NM ring around the departure airport, then fly outside that ring.

For an ATP, you are done. The flight counts regardless of where you go or what you do after that.

For PPL, CPL, IR you need to land somewhere before you fly back into the ring. Touch-and-go's are a grey area here, best to do a at least a stop-and-go.

Once you leave the ring, you do not need to go back inside...ie you could land and spend the night (or weekend, or whatever).

Also be aware that the FAA may not want you to do a 51NM XC flight, do airwork for two hours, and then log the whole flight as XC. It's not defined by the regs that you have to be "enroute" the whole time, but use your judgment here. A few practice stalls or slow flight enroute would be OK but probably not extended airwork in a practice area.

When I was doing my training, the thing everyone used to say was "make sure you have two landings that are at least 50 NM away". Basically you take all the points at which you landed. If you can drawl a line between any two points and have it be more than 50 NM, then it counts as 50 NM cross country. For ATP XC its the same, except you use any point that you fly over instead of any point where you landed.

When I was doing my training there was a common route private students would do where they'd fly north 30 miles to airport A, do a touch and go, fly south 50 miles to airport B, do a touch and go, then return home 30 miles north. The idea was when you landed at Airport A, it became the new "departure" airport.

Now lets say you went 30 miles to airport A, spent the night, then flew 50 miles to airport B, would that qualify? How is that any different between flying 30 miles to Airport A but just doing a touch and go before heading off to airport B? Where is the line drawn between an airport being the new "departure point" and an "enroute point"? Has the FAA ever defined these terms?

I certainly would have considered a T&G meeting that requirement.It does. I'm not sure where Rick sees the gray area. A landing is a landing and a touch & go counts as much an any other unless, of course, there is a reg that specifically tells us that there needs to be a full stop to count. And there are more than enough of those to tell us that the FAA isn't shy about telling us when it wants a full stop.

Personally I insist that my students do full stops at their solo cross country airports. But that's my rule not the FAA's.

When I was doing my training, the thing everyone used to say was "make sure you have two landings that are at least 50 NM away". Basically you take all the points at which you landed. If you can drawl a line between any two points and have it be more than 50 NM, then it counts as 50 NM cross country. For ATP XC its the same, except you use any point that you fly over instead of any point where you landed.

When I was doing my training there was a common route private students would do where they'd fly north 30 miles to airport A, do a touch and go, fly south 50 miles to airport B, do a touch and go, then return home 30 miles north. The idea was when you landed at Airport A, it became the new "departure" airport.

Now lets say you went 30 miles to airport A, spent the night, then flew 50 miles to airport B, would that qualify? How is that any different between flying 30 miles to Airport A but just doing a touch and go before heading off to airport B? Where is the line drawn between an airport being the new "departure point" and an "enroute point"? Has the FAA ever defined these terms?

I agree with this. To solidify the "departure airport" with respect to the 50 NM rule, I would have my students log the 30NM flight to the "new departure airport" as on entry, next entry would be the 50NM run (showing that the only airports associated with that entry in the LB is the >50NM leg) and then one more entry for the 30NM trip home.

In my head, this would show that the purpose of the >50NM rule was met, to fly something long enough to give the solo student a chance to get lost :)

When I was doing my training there was a common route private students would do where they'd fly north 30 miles to airport A, do a touch and go, fly south 50 miles to airport B, do a touch and go, then return home 30 miles north. The idea was when you landed at Airport A, it became the new "departure" airport.

Now lets say you went 30 miles to airport A, spent the night, then flew 50 miles to airport B, would that qualify? How is that any different between flying 30 miles to Airport A but just doing a touch and go before heading off to airport B? Where is the line drawn between an airport being the new "departure point" and an "enroute point"? Has the FAA ever defined these terms?

I agree this makes logical sense, since there is no FAR definition of "departure point".

But I think you could still get into trouble on one point...

You are not being consistent in your application of your own rule. The first T&G reset the departure point...OK, fine, but why did the second T&G not also reset the departure point? That would make the last leg 30NM, and not a XC.

My guess would be that if you actually stop for some period of time, you could call that your new departure point. How long?

I think a T&G is too short. A lunch or dinner stop might count, and an overnight would surely count I think. It would be up to the FSDO which violates you I guess...

Just for an assist - FAA Legal very recently weighed in on repositioning flights (among other cross country issues) in
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis%20Glenn.pdf

There are two others in the recent group that deal with cross country logging but not repositoning:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Hilliard.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Van%20Zanen.pdf

Just for an assist - FAA Legal very recently weighed in on repositioning flights (among other cross country issues) in
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis%20Glenn.pdf

There are two others in the recent group that deal with cross country logging but not repositoning:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Hilliard.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Van%20Zanen.pdf

Thats really cool, but it doesn't really address the issue that "original point of departure" isn't really defined really well.

The way it's written now, a flight from A-B-C does not count as XC, but a flight from B-C-A does. It's the same darn flight, just in a different leg order! I don't think the FAA intended the wording to imply that first leg is somehow special in that it has to be the one thats more than 50 NM, but thats what ends up happening.

I don't think the FAA intended the wording to imply that first leg is somehow special in that it has to be the one thats more than 50 NM, but thats what ends up happening.Not always. The FAA has never had a problem with

AAA -30NM-> BBB -30NM-> AAA

so long as the distance between AAA and CCC is >50NM

I wold' be surprised if that type of student solo cross country is pretty common in some places. Checking back out of curiosity, the first leg of one of my solo cross countries was 44NM - 42NM - 61NM.

The way I read the letter, was that if the route was:

A-B-C

A-B = 30 nm
B-C = +50 nm
C-A = 30 nm

Then you can either log it "A-B" with no cross country and "B-C-A" with cross country, or you can log it as "A-B-C-A" with no cross country because none of the points along the route are 50 miles away from "your original point of departure" (if that were the case).

As far as I can tell by that letter, the FAA is defining "original point of departure" to mean "the first airport listed in the route"

The way I read the letter, was that if the route was:

A-B-C

A-B = 30 nm
B-C = +50 nm
C-A = 30 nm

Then you can either log it "A-B" with no cross country and "B-C-A" with cross country, or you can log it as "A-B-C-A" with no cross country because none of the points along the route are 50 miles away from "your original point of departure" (if that were the case).

As far as I can tell by that letter, the FAA is defining "original point of departure" to mean "the first airport listed in the route"Yep, I think you are reading it correctly - hard to tell without real points to look at. That's what the Chief Counsel letter is talking about - choosing the :original point of departure."

I know a couple of people aren't too thrilled with the letter since it theoretically allows a cross country to take place in a very small area:

A-B heading 360° 26NM
B-C heading 180° 51 NM
C-A Heading 360° 25 NM

counting A-B as the repositioning flight and counting B-C-A as the cross country.

Personally, I don't think this letter is the last we'll hear on the issue, although it may not get "abused" as much as some folks think it will.