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Interesting diagram and related article. Some very ugly realities are coming home to roost.

Europe's Web of Debt - Graphic - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html)

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money to spend "






Ally

Interesting diagram and related article. Some very ugly realities are coming home to roost.

Europe's Web of Debt - Graphic - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/05/02/weekinreview/02marsh.html)


As they will in the US unless entitlement spending is radically reformed, spending is drastically cut and the federal taxation system modified so that way more people have a financial stake in play. It is shocking that nearly half of US citizens pay no federal income tax.

As they will in the US unless entitlement spending is radically reformed, spending is drastically cut and the federal taxation system modified so that way more people have a financial stake in play. It is shocking that nearly half of US citizens pay no federal income tax.

Yes it is shocking. Even more shocking is that the people running the system have zero accountability. If they were held to the same ethical and accounting standards as the private sector, they would all be in jail.

Under the current rules they can just throw up their hands and say: "gosh, how were we to know", and then just walk away to a comfortable retirement.

Interesting news on the television involving Greece today ,lots of places are shut down including the airport .
3 killed in fire set during protests in Greece - Europe- msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36958519/ns/world_news-europe/?GT1=43001)
What part of bankrupt don't these people understand ?


Ally

All is well, everything is stable and going according to plan. It won't effect us at all, we are in full control.:D:eek:

No really, super high taxes and massive debt are just the ticket to sound economic growth. Wait, come back!

The opening shot of what is going to be a very big move.

All is well, everything is stable and going according to plan. It won't effect us at all, we are in full control.:D:eek:

No really, super high taxes and massive debt are just the ticket to sound economic growth. Wait, come back!

The opening shot of what is going to be a very big move.

Appears that move has already happened , funny thing is that Freds old man is spending his vacation in Athens . :eek:



Ally

Appears that move has already happened , funny thing is that Freds old man is spending his vacation in Athens . :eek:



Ally

You ain't seen nothing yet, as they say in America.

You ain't seen nothing yet, as they say in America.
"May you live in interesting times "

"May you live in interesting times "


:D:D:D------------------

Der Spiegels take on the situation:The Mother of All Bubbles: Huge National Debts Could Push Euro Zone into Bankruptcy - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,693317,00.html)

This is going to get bigger.

I firmly believe that the excessive debt, spending and monitary manipulation by most governments is about to come home to roost. Has Iceland fixed their mess yet (seems that is already forgotten)? Will Greece really follow through.....Nevermind, small potatoes there....How about the U.K.? There is so much bad news about to come out I can't get my pea-brain around it. Back to basics: Your F4 has been hit by enemy fire, you are trailing 200 ft of flames, dual fire lights and smoke in the cockpit. If you listen to the market cheerleaders maybe you could convince yourself that you are not on fire, but a sane person would announce "Bailout, Bailout, Bailout".:eek:

It is always best to abort early and avoid the rush. People get hurt in the stampede toward the exits.:D


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The European debt crisis could quickly spread to US banks, which are heavily exposed to Europe, banking analyst Dick Bove told CNBC.com.

Bove, of Rochdale Securities, released research showing the massive exposure US banks such as JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley and Citigroup have to European debt.

Worries about the spreading debt crisis in Europe helped trigger a selloff in US stocks, which quickly escalated after an apparent trader error. The Dow dropped nearly 1,000 points before closing down nearly 350 points.

"The five biggest banks in the United States have a substantial risk to what's going on in Europe," Bove said in a telephone interview. "We've argued for a couple of days that Greece will default because it has no other option....Where are they going to get the funds to repay?"

Greek citizens took to the streets to protest a vote by parliament agreeing to austerity measures linked to a European Union bailout. Bove said the demonstrations sent the message that while the government may agree to financial belt-tightening, the public would not.

"There is simply a growing recognition that Greece has got to default," Bove said. "The riots in the streets showed the decision to repay the debt was not going to be made by the people in Germany, France and Switzerland. It's going to be made by people in Greece and they're not going to repay it.

"Anyone seeing the riots is going to recognize that this government is going to be thrown out," Bove added. "And anything replacing this government is going to be far more leftist leaning and they're going to repudiate."

Read Bove's Notes Pt. 1 Read Bove's Notes Pt. 2 Global ramifications could be profound, with major US banks heavily exposed to Greek debt.

Five companies alone have $2.5 trillion in exposure, with Citigroup [C 4.04 -0.14 (-3.35%) ] at 77.7 percent of the total, Morgan Stanley [MS 27.64 -1.65 (-5.63%) ] at 65.6 percent, and JPMorgan Chase [JPM 40.81 -1.82 (-4.27%) ] at 59.8 percent, according to Bove's research.

"What you're faced with is you simply do not know which countries are solvent, which countries are insolvent," Bove said. "You do not know who the counterparties are for these insolvent countries, so you run for the hills."

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The Gods of the Copybook Headings


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AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

Kipling 1919

"Published in October 1919 when the poet was 53 years old, "The Gods of the Copybook Headings" has proved enduringly popular, despite the fact that copybooks disappeared from schoolrooms in Britain and America during, or shortly after, World War 2. A copybook was an exercise book used to practice one's handwriting in. The pages were blank except for horizontal rulings and a printed specimen of perfect handwriting at the top. You were supposed to copy this specimen all down the page. The specimens were proverbs or quotations, or little commonplace hortatory or admonitory sayings—the ones in the poem illustrate the kind of thing. These were the copybook headings."

There is a set of very basic truths that we can never escape, but that never keeps us from trying.

nevermind......................................... ..............

nevermind......................................... ..............

Yes, I know many of us are left speechless by simple logic, simple arithmetic and simple history. It will eventually become more apparent.:D

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money to spend "
Ally

Do you really believe this is the problem in Europe or specifically Greece? I hope not ... unless you really believe Obama is a socialist, then i'll pass on this topic.

Do you really believe this is the problem in Europe or specifically Greece? I hope not ... unless you really believe Obama is a socialist, then i'll pass on this topic.

So tell us, how are things in Greece? I think the point, and it is a point many countries are about to get very familiar with, is that you cannot continue to spend far more than you make without an eventual problem with massive debt.
Call it whatever you like, but it is a problem for the US too and like Greece it took decades to develop. You just got there first.:D

So tell us, how are things in Greece? I think the point, and it is a point many countries are about to get very familiar with, is that you cannot continue to spend far more than you make without an eventual problem with massive debt.
Call it whatever you like, but it is a problem for the US too and like Greece it took decades to develop. You just got there first.:D

How are things in Greece? It's 30 degrees C at the moment, off till Friday bout to go to the beach :cool:

Of course you cannot spend far more than you make, but comparing Greece to the USA is apples and oranges. Greece produces close to NOTHING, tourism and shipping are the only things that are left and unfortunately due to corruption and mismanagement by previous governments that is going down the toilet.

Financial institutions, Economic hitmen and banks run the country it's not a socialist state like it was in the 70s after the junta, corporations coming in and threatening politicians to push agenda, paying millions to them to pass laws to allow them to do whatever and the list goes on and on.

It's funny this whole thing with the IMF and Euro .. just for a example, Europe is borrowing money to give to Greece at 1%-2% Greece has interest on this money at 3-6% .. all their doing is making money off the crisis in Greece, I guess that's our poor reality nowadays.

Fake conflicts with Turkey in order for weapons, submarines, and aircraft to be sold. Greece has a population of 11,000,000 and has a military of 100,000!! So you can understand the reality of this, Germany has only 200,000!! Greece spends close to 10 billion Euros a year on it's MILITARY!! Now you understand why Greece has no money? But why would France Germany or the US care ? They are getting all the military contracts off a silly fake Greece-Turkey conflict ... love it.

How are things in Greece? It's 30 degrees C at the moment, off till Friday bout to go to the beach :cool:

Of course you cannot spend far more than you make, but comparing Greece to the USA is apples and oranges. Greece produces close to NOTHING, tourism and shipping are the only things that are left and unfortunately due to corruption and mismanagement by previous governments that is going down the toilet.

Financial institutions, Economic hitmen and banks run the country it's not a socialist state like it was in the 70s after the junta, corporations coming in and threatening politicians to push agenda, paying millions to them to pass laws to allow them to do whatever and the list goes on and on.

It's funny this whole thing with the IMF and Euro .. just for a example, Europe is borrowing money to give to Greece at 1%-2% Greece has interest on this money at 3-6% .. all their doing is making money off the crisis in Greece, I guess that's our poor reality nowadays.

Fake conflicts with Turkey in order for weapons, submarines, and aircraft to be sold. Greece has a population of 11,000,000 and has a military of 100,000!! So you can understand the reality of this, Germany has only 200,000!! Greece spends close to 10 billion Euros a year on it's MILITARY!! Now you understand why Greece has no money? But why would France Germany or the US care ? They are getting all the military contracts off a silly fake Greece-Turkey conflict ... love it.

Got it, if I run my credit cards up to the point I can no longer pay them, it's the banks fault.
Eventually we get to the present position of the bankrupt bailing out the insolvent. Not picking on Greece, we seem to be seeing a lot of this all over the world.

Just two words, and I know it may sound crazy: fiscal responsibility.
I really don't care how they spend it, what is really important is how much.
A lesson we are all going to learn eventually.

Do you really believe this is the problem in Europe or specifically Greece? I hope not ... unless you really believe Obama is a socialist, then i'll pass on this topic.
Tikanis :),Greece as well as other countries are facing the fact that problems arise when you spend more than you take in and this was predicted long ago and yet nothing was done to mitigate the circumstances which some find themselves .
You can go back to the trough only so many times before it dries up.

Got it, if I run my credit cards up to the point I can no longer pay them, it's the banks fault.
Eventually we get to the present position of the bankrupt bailing out the insolvent. Not picking on Greece, we seem to be seeing a lot of this all over the world.

Just two words, and I know it may sound crazy: fiscal responsibility.
I really don't care how they spend it, what is really important is how much.
A lesson we are all going to learn eventually.


So banks and all these so called financial institutions have no responsibility? Blame the people? Common now who are we kidding? The first chance they get they are giving out loans and credit cards. Why do you think governments around the world have problems with indigenous people? And the answer is that they the people are useless to the markets because they don't buy or sell, they don't have bank accounts, credit cards.

Fiscal responsibility is nothing crazy, but since when do credit card companies want you to pay everything on time and upfront? I am sure they don't have a problem getting the fees that come with not paying on time :rolleyes:

Just for your information, Greeks didn't know what a credit card was until the mid 2000s, so the so called run up credit cards is not feasible for Greece. Politicians have corrupted the country by actual being anti-socialist and inflating the public sector to get votes and steal as much money as possible.

The EU kept giving Greece loans, 1st loan money was stolen, 2nd loan stolen, 3rd loan stolen and now they decide to ask for the money back when they are well aware of the situation in Greece, go figure .. and unfortunately now the people of Greece will need to suffer and pay for the naive EU and the corrupt politicians of Greece. Doesn't seem fair to me ...

We have all seen what the IMF+World Bank have done to these small third world countries, and I am afraid that the same will happen in Greece. Loan huge amounts of money that will NEVER be able to be paid back, and them knowing this asking things from Greece, either that be military or drilling for oil under the Aegean Sea ... time will tell.

There is going to be plenty of finger pointing over the next few years.
Bankers, capitalists, the IMF and a host of others, but the real culprit will be the ones who thought they might get something for nothing.

Many of us can look in the mirror and see who is to blame. Although I doubt there will be any admission of guilt.
As we say over here:" You $%^&#! up, you trusted them!"

There is going to be plenty of finger pointing over the next few years.
Bankers, capitalists, the IMF and a host of others, but the real culprit will be the ones who thought they might get something for nothing.

Many of us can look in the mirror and see who is to blame. Although I doubt there will be any admission of guilt.
As we say over here:" You $%^&#! up, you trusted them!"

Jungle I agree, there will definitely be a lot of finger pointing, only time will tell...

When I lived in the USA(still part time) I never had problems paying taxes if it went to people in need or social programs, of course I understand that some of this money will go to people who don't want to work and who deliberately use the system to get free things. I can see where your coming from ... but you must understand that your beef is a small percentage of what is going on with the banking and financial problems of the world.

The markets aren't crashing around the world because you have a percentage of people who are getting something for nothing. Corporate Greed, political corruption are the real culprits in my honest opinion and having lived in both a capitalistic society and socialist society I have a lot to compare. We as pilots should understand what it means to get screwed by corporate puppets, we have management trying to screw us any chance they get, and were the top producing work force in any airline :eek:

Bottom line and I think we all agree .. EVERYONE SHOULD LEARN TO LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS...AND CORRUPT POLITICIANS SHOULD GO TO JAIL

We have another expression here: "The dog ate my homework."

It implies a complete refusal to accept responsibility, even to the point of blaming the loyal family dog. Not uncommon and I expect to see it, but lower spending is going to be the only thing that will work. We are all going to have to live within our means. Spending must be limited by law to stop the excess.
Best of luck to you and Greece in the coming years.:)

Part of the problem in Greece is the refusal for a lot of people to accept responsibility, agreed. But it's not the biggest issue regarding the economy.
Thanks, it's a shame for such a beautiful country to be in the mess it's in ... Greece has hit bottom, only was is up now? I hope ...