Airline Pilot Forums

A few months ago, I posted about reading an article in the AOPA magazine about expunging accidents and incidents from a pilot's record. I thought I read the article within the last year, but as it turned out it was printed way back in February 2006. I guess time flies.

Regardless, I found the story in the archives on the AOPA website. I reread it and this is the jist of what it said. When an accident occurs, the FAA collects information for the accident/incident database. This includes the name, birthdate, and certificate number of the pilot involved.

As of November 2005, the FAA changed the rule and began expunging the name and certificate number of the pilot involved in the matter after five years. Previously, a pilot could apply for the expunging of the accident, but most pilots were not aware that could be done. Now, it is automatic.

According to the FAA, it decided that five years was long enough maintain identifying material pertaining to an accident. If another accident occured within the initial five year period, both would appear until five years had passed from the date of the second accident. The FAA was worried accidents from long ago would unfairly act as black marks on a pilot's record.

This information applies to PRIA requests though. The AOPA article mentioned that the NTSB also keeps its own records which are separate from the FAA's records. I am unsure whether the NTSB records maintain a pliot's name or certificate number indefintely.

Anyway, I brought this issue up a few months ago and I just wanted provide put a bow on the issue.

Thanks for posting the follow-up, i wasn't aware of the change.

I suppose this will lead to the ethical debate of after 5 years following an accident, how does a pilot answer on an application or in an interview: " have you ever been involved in an aircraft accident or incident? "

Thanks for posting the follow-up, i wasn't aware of the change.

I suppose this will lead to the ethical debate of after 5 years following an accident, how does a pilot answer on an application or in an interview: " have you ever been involved in an aircraft accident or incident? "
It would if there was a linky-poo.

Thanks for posting the follow-up, i wasn't aware of the change.

I suppose this will lead to the ethical debate of after 5 years following an accident, how does a pilot answer on an application or in an interview: " have you ever been involved in an aircraft accident or incident? "

It's an interesting question and one I think deserves a good and honest debate.

Let's say a private pilot is involved in an accident at 20 years of age. He continues to fly and at the age of 35 decides to change careers and become a pilot. If that person has a CFI and 2000 hours, is an event 15 years in the past relevant? I would say no, but I understand why other would say yes.

Let's say an ATP is involved in an accident while flying for a regional. Ten years later the ATP applies for a job at a major. Is that accident relevant? In this case, I would be more inclined to say yes because the accident occured in 121 flying and the ATP is looking to move to a larger form of 121 flying. It shouldn't be a non-starter though.

It's one of those instances where the legal and the ethical may not be the same. My conscience would get the best of me though. Having said that, some regionals outright reject applicants if an accident has occured the past.

It would if there was a linky-poo.

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2006/pc0602.html

Have to be a member to read it though. As I wrote, the NTSB has its own database people can sift through.

I know many operators in Asia specifically will just outright say that if you have been involved in any sort of accident, no matter of you're Sullenberger, they don't want you...

I know many operators in Asia specifically will just outright say that if you have been involved in any sort of accident, no matter of you're Sullenberger, they don't want you...

The US is a little more pragmatic, most airlines will consider the circumstances and not just disqualify you for any previous history.

The phrase "have you ever had an accident?" should be answered honestly. Not only is it the right thing to do but if answered falsely could be grounds for termination... that would be worse than an accident I think.

Anyway, I had an accident 20 years ago, no violation was issued due to the circumstances. I applied at a certain regional, filled out the app in detail and above all, honestly.... received an invite to interview. Upon gathering at the corporate headquarters after 10 minutes, I was sent home. HR said they couldn't hire me because of the accident even though it was 20 years prior. No chance was given to explain myself... just a ticket home. As a side note, if they would have read the application, they would have not wasted their time or my money. They don't pay for accomodations or meals for interviewees. No refund or apology offered but they clearly made a mistake.

Another airline called me and wanted to invite me for an interview but wanted to know if I had flown a multi in the last 6 months. Again, I was honest... I hadn't flown a twin in over a year but was instrument current and flying regularly. The HR folks at that airline decided to un-invite me. Btw, I have quite a few hours in piston twins and am type rated in the CRJ.

I guess if you really want a job in this market you could lie... The first airline probably would have never found out about my accident. My feeling is, why erode your dignity for peanuts? Yes, I am still un-employed and there may have been others at that interview that lied and were hired. Which is better? You have to make the choice based upon who you are as a person.

The phrase "have you ever had an accident?" should be answered honestly. Not only is it the right thing to do but if answered falsely could be grounds for termination... that would be worse than an accident I think.It would be and it should be.

On the FAA's accident/incident expungement policy, understand that it is very, very limited. If you read Yodice's article in the link Whacker provided, you'll see that part of the reason is related to the negative impact of the information being in the pilot record held by an enforcement agency - the "if the cops investigated you, you must've done something bad" mentality. Even if there was no violation, no warning, no nothing that came of it other than a polite interview.

It's a "we don't have a record of an investigation of the incident" kind of expungement, not a "the incident never happened" kind of expungement.

You make a good point about an accident or incident simply not being part of a pilot's record. It's not as if the whole event is removed from the memory banks. There is still a file with the events that took place, just no name.

As the article I linked stated, the NTSB also keeps its own records, but I don't know if they have names associated with their reports. Having said that, I just don't know how an airline would ever find out if someone had an accident if the pilot's name was expunged from the event.

I renewed my CFI with a flight the other day and did so with an FAA examiner I know. I brought this topic up because I found it interesting. Without passing a moral judgement on the topic, the FAA examiner told me he thought there was really no way for someone to find out about an accident or incident unless the pilot offered the information.

I don't know what a person should do with this issue. It's a roll of the dice, but it's also a tough job market and each person has to do what is best for that person. We've all heard stories about inflated logbooks so this may just be another form of logbook inflating.

IMO, if one has had an accident or incident that is no longer part of the FAA records and is trying to make the decision whether or not to disclose it (leaving aside ethical/moral issues), one should at least spend the bucks for a consultation with a professional career consultant to get better reality-check on the relative risk.

Having reread my own comments, I don't want it to come across that I feel it is ok to lie about this matter. If someone got that impression, I want that impression to change.

I'm just curious about the hypotheical. If an accident is expunged from a pilot's record, where can airlines check to see if one did occur? If none showed up in a PRIA request, why would an airline think to look elsewhere (assuming there is elsewhere)? Why would they assume everyone who comes through the door is lying?

If, after five years, only the pilot knows of the event, is it time for airlines to rephrase that question to "past five years" or should they continue to rely on honesty as the best policy? Just throwing it out there.

Don't know about anyone else but I didn't answer your question based on an assumption that you were recommending lying. Just without moralizing either way. Practically speaking, the more an employers' market it is, the more even otherwise irrelevant distinctions become.

I don't think it's time for a potential employer to rephrase the question. As a passenger I still want to know that the airline has screened that pilot carefully. A pilot's 10-year old incident may be relevant or irrelevant. It may reflect well or badly (would you hire Sully knowing about the Hudson River incident?). But as a passenger, I'm relying on the airline to make that determination and on the pilot to have been candid about the question.

How will someone know? It's rare for "no one except the pilot" to know about a pilot's accident or incident. Old friends, family, the company or FBO the aircraft came from, the insurance company that handled the claim, newspaper archives, online discussions when it happened...

My guess is that chances are that beyond the PRIA or a FOIA request, the potential employer probably won't go further. OTOH, you have given the employer a great out in the future if it does somehow come to light.

I will continue to be honest about my accident of twenty years ago. Since that time, I have logged time in many types of modern, antique and experimental aircraft... of course accident free. Of all the airlines I have interviewed and worked for only one has held this against me... It is there perogative.. it is also my perogative to say to that airline.. Scr*w you to
: - )

I'm just curious about the hypotheical. If an accident is expunged from a pilot's record, where can airlines check to see if one did occur? If none showed up in a PRIA request, why would an airline think to look elsewhere (assuming there is elsewhere)? Why would they assume everyone who comes through the door is lying?

If, as a result of the accident/incident, the pilot is subjected to a 44709 recertification check for his/her commercial, ATP, CFI certificate - then a record of the reexamination will be in the pilot's complete airman certificate file when it is requested by the airline.

Well, there you go.

How detrimental is an incident, accident, or violation to a pilot trying to find work while it is still on his/her record???

In a market where everyone is hiring, it's probably not a deal breaker. In a market where airlines hold all of the hiring cards, it probably is a deal breaker.

Eagle and Colgan won't take anyone with more than 2 checkride failures. I'd say unfortunatly the incident/accident is a deal breaker. Unfortunatly failing a checkride or accident on paper makes us look like bad pilots. O well I guess screw em.

I renewed my CFI with a flight the other day and did so with an FAA examiner I know. I brought this topic up because I found it interesting. Without passing a moral judgement on the topic, the FAA examiner told me he thought there was really no way for someone to find out about an accident or incident unless the pilot offered the information.

Not quite sure that that is true. The FAA has the means to find out anything, about anyone, at any time. Now, having said that, it may be assumed on the FAA's part or an airline's part that if a pilot states on an application that he or she hasn't had an incident or accident, when in fact they have, that the pilot is telling the truth. I guess it would depend upon the type of flying that the pilot is currently engaged in when filling out the app.



atp

How detrimental is an incident, accident, or violation to a pilot trying to find work while it is still on his/her record???

Probably as bad as dropped charges from a CHRC.


atp