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Well folks I have myself a predicament. I would very much like to purchase a C172 for pleasure flying and time building. I have one picked out in Florida I would like to buy but I'm not sure how to finance it. Is there anyone you guys know that would finance a first time buyer that makes 20,000 a year? I am having trouble finding a place that will allow me to. I am a member of AOPA and applied for their financing but they haven't contacted me. The website says they will have someone contact you in 24 hours but 6 days and 3 apps later I have heard not a peep. I am at a loss. Do I have to sit on my a$$ and not fly for two years to earn and save so I can pay cash or is their another option? I haven't flown in a year due to ridiculous renting costs and I can't stand the thought of not flying for even longer. Please help me.



By the way, mods if this belongs in the money section you can move it. I wasn't sure since this was more of a GA thing.

Thanks!

I am not an aircraft owner, but do have some current knowledge...

AOPA's affiliated lender is Bank of America. If you qualify for the loan, their rates are competitve: 6.75%. If you're a first-time aircraft owner, they'll want 30% down. AOPA is a good resource for you, but BOA are not "airplane" people.

The folks at Dorr Aviation Credit are "airplane" people. They are much easier to talk to and their rates are almost as good. They just offered me 6.85% with just 20% down.

Another good airplane finance co. is Zook Aviation.

YMMV. Good luck with your plans, and, yes, putting aside every penny you can for awhile is the best place to start. Hope this helps.

I am not an aircraft owner, but do have some current knowledge...

AOPA's affiliated lender is Bank of America. If you qualify for the loan, their rates are competitve: 6.75%. If you're a first-time aircraft owner, they'll want 30% down. AOPA is a good resource for you, but BOA are not "airplane" people.

The folks at Dorr Aviation Credit are "airplane" people. They are much easier to talk to and their rates are almost as good. They just offered me 6.85% with just 20% down.

Another good airplane finance co. is Zook Aviation.

YMMV. Good luck with your plans, and, yes, putting aside every penny you can for awhile is the best place to start. Hope this helps.

How far out will they amortize the loan? 5, 10, or 20 years?

Skyhigh

How far out will they amortize the loan? 5, 10, or 20 years?

Skyhigh

If you're looking at a well-known make and model that the bank can accurrately appraise, they'll go 20 years. I've been asking about less-common types, Stearman for example, that they won't go past about 10 years on, at 8% to boot. Zook or NAFCO seem to be the best places for the less-common types.

I asked BOA about financing for a 1982 Great Lakes and they said, "A what? NFW!"

Hey Skyhigh! I'm glad you chimed in as I know you are a recent Cessna buyer. Any tips? How are you liking being an owner?

I haven't flown in a year due to ridiculous renting costs and I can't stand the thought of not flying for even longer. Please help me.


When you add it all up, you'll find that owning may be just as expensive... if not more so. My first plane was a 1600 hour TT Cessna 172M. Paid $19,000 for it (this was over 20 years ago). Sold it a few years later for $25,000, I think.

Engine overall cost about $10,000 ;-)

Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem wise financially for someone making only 20K/year to be buying a plane. If something major breaks, you won't be able to afford to get it fixed. Try and find a local flying club.

Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem wise financially for someone making only 20K/year to be buying a plane..


I agree with you. Buying a plane because you're too broke to rent is a recipe for financial disaster. I've been involved with 4 different airplanes (two singles, two twins)... they all cost WAY more than I could have ever estimated.

I had a job that paid six figures when I was buying them.

I used BOA for an aircraft loan and will never use them again. We agreed on a rate and term, then when they sent the paperwork the day before closing, the terms were different than we agreed to. When I called them on it they said, in effect, "take it or leave it".... Big learning curve there. When you get the terms, get them in writing, don't accept the loan officer and their manager both agreeing to the same terms as set in stone.... I have talked with others that have used them and they have run into the same problem. They don't do it to everyone and I don't know if any other bank does this, but this was my unfortunate experience...

Another suggestion is to get an aviation attorney when you purchase an airplane. I am not a big advocate of attorneys, but a good one will see all the potential legal pitfalls that you may have never thought of....

Forgot to add, this was a few years ago, maybe they have gotten better since then....

I have a 2009 Diamond DA40 and have been extremely happy with the purchase. Diamond support is great over the phone and is always more than happy to assist my mechanic with any questions he has (he usually works on helicopters, he helps out on my plane to help me out).

My aircraft before was a Piper Seminole and that thing was a money pit. Getting rid of that thing was the best financial move of my life! I can't imagine ATP with their fleet of Seminoles.....must be an absolute nightmare for their maintenance crews.

Hey Skyhigh! I'm glad you chimed in as I know you are a recent Cessna buyer. Any tips? How are you liking being an owner?

I have owned several planes for almost two decades and Was happy to get rid of my Taylorcraft and get a 150 again.

It is nice to have a parts manual and several suppliers of parts again. Simple is better.

Skyhigh

financing is probably the least expensive part of owning. At 20k/year and without knowing the rest of your financial status, I would say it is a bad idea to purchase.

At the time I was a 100hr private pilot I bought a C-152. I used a home HELOC to pay for it (Dave Ramsey would kick me in the nuts for that).
Aviation loans typically go to 20 years with a minimum of 25k financed and 20% down (while still financing 25k min)

Insurance was $650 / year and later dropped to 450 after I had more hours and inst rating

Annual inspections were $2500, $750, $450, $1500, and $450 for the years I had the plane.

Pitot static checks cost about $350 (iirc) and I had to replace an altimeter ($800)

Tie down fee was $50 month.

Fuel is now ~4.50/gallon depending on where you live. calculating 6 gph, the fuel cost is $27 per hour.

Aviation oil, filters and spark plugs ar not cheap (plugs: 8 of them at $20 each)


I didn't realize any savings until I sold the plane. For me, after all was said and done, it turned out that I had a plane and only paid for fuel. I got lucky, the market went up, I had an overseas buyer that didn't negotiate on the price and I had zero problems with the engine.

so, 20k/year (to me) is way to low to purchase.

May want to look into clubs or partial share of something. Finance yourself, pay cash.


(just my 2 cents)

Unless you have a substantial amount of savings somewhere, you can't do this. You don't make enough money. Period. Take a deep breath, stop, and think. Rent when you can, save your money, and buy the airplane when you can afford it. Right now you're doing the same thing people were doing with houses a few years ago. You'll wind up foreclosed too, with a bad credit history that'll make financial security even harder to obtain in the future. YOU DON'T NEED AN AIRPLANE!

And, hell, unless you fly at least 100 hours/year (see post above) it'll cost more per hour to own than rent. You can't even afford to fly ONE hour, according to your first post. My goodness ...

Looked at owning a few years ago, I came up with a break even in the neighborhood of 150 hours a year. My wife and I were bringing home nearly 9k a month, 2k was tax free, Nearly 7k disposable, no debt. We thought we could afford an airplane easy! Then we crunched some numbers. With our work schedules we figured we would fly about 10 hours a month, and that was really making a commitment to go fly often. When we included all the standard costs, plus a mx and overhaul reserve, it was MUCH CHEAPER to rent. Additionally, we could rent a much nicer airplane than we were going to be able to afford to buy. Life changes, my wife is out of the Navy and a stay at home mom, my upgrade didn't happen when I hoped it would and our take home is now half of what it was. We are doing jut great, but we wouldn't be if we had bought an airplane. We took the cash we saved up, put a sizable down payment on a house and now have a mortgage payment (including T&I) of $670 a month. I was nearly furloughed with a one month old baby, it was a wonderful feeling to know that my unemployment would cover my mortgage and utilities easily. My point is that just because you have the money (and the OP doesn't), doesn't mean that you should spend it. I still want an airplane really bad, but it was one of the best things I never bought.

I have one picked out in Florida I would like to buy but I'm not sure how to finance it. Is there anyone you guys know that would finance a first time buyer that makes 20,000 a year?
Thanks!

Other than a house, I would not purchase ANYTHING that requires me to finance it - especially an airplane.

I've always been hamstrung when renting. Try renting for a week or more. Not many places will do that, or charge a minimum per day whether you put time on the hobbes or not.

Ownership, while expensive does permit some flexibility. Try going somewhere for a week, or getting a wild hair and flying at midnight.

I agree with you. Buying a plane because you're too broke to rent is a recipe for financial disaster. I've been involved with 4 different airplanes (two singles, two twins)... they all cost WAY more than I could have ever estimated.

I had a job that paid six figures when I was buying them.

Agree completely Tony.

I assume that you have no living expenses and are totally dedicated to the operation of this AC. Perhaps you are going to instruct in it and get insurance for that?

Certainly it would take a total financial commitment on your part and you would be unlikely to find a lender for such an endeavor.

The other thing people aren't looking at is the financing game has changed. Minimum loan amounts these days are 25K and they won't finance for 20 years unless the amounts exceed 50K depending on the lender. So you're looking at 10 year loans for the low amounts. You get car loans with better rates for that amount. So there's certainly a lack of financing market for the under 50K aircraft out there.

As to the costs year by year, no doubt renting is way cheaper. Just like homes, renting allows you to stop-start-stop your costs on command. If you finance you're stuck with that amount month after month. One bad month and you're now sweating. Forget that. And good luck selling anything in this market. I have a C-150, a ratted out one, and paid cash for it. About the only thing I get out of the premium I pay over renting is that I have access to it on command. That's about it. These things are the cheapest certified contraption out there for flying, and it's still a money pit. 800 for gyro overhaul/replacement. 450 dollars for wiring harness. 250 for a battery. Another 350 for tires. insurance is about the only cheap thing (for me was 450/yr with only $16K hull coverage) and I run mogas so it's about 2.60/gal. If you run 100LL then forget it, my gas costs would double or I would fly half as much, which would increase my per hour cost on top of it. Then there are transponder checks and pitot static checks. I'm gonna plead the fifth on those and leave it at that :rolleyes:. Bottom line, nickle and dime, nickle and dime.

Truth is nobody expected these 70s vintage contraptions to be the workhorses of recreational General Aviation in 2010. As such, they are mx prone because everything in them is old, brittle and due for replacement. But even after you overhaul everything you still have a 40 yo airplane. Cessna calls a 162 affordable...gimme a break. I guess I'll continue to swallow asbestos and whatever crap comes out of my air vents everytime I touch the thing, in my C150 for the premium of not paying 110K for a 2010 de facto 150. Oh an the engine is one failure away from putting the thing in the scrapyard...blow-by for sure in one or more cylinder, cylinders are 400 a pop, A&P wants to clean your savings account everytime you have to open the cowling....no way I'm putting 15-20K on an airplane I paid 15K for.....and surprise surprise, I don't have 15K to dump on an 50 year old O-200 technology engine, nor I would want to (I have the 15K, but not for that...). That said, neither do most "aircraft owners". We're all one overhaul away from shortselling these rat traps...I want to go places, 90kts and 400fpm single pilot on a good day is simply not a useful way to get any fun out of traveling. So consider your mission. Putzing around the home field gets old quick.

Yea, in your situation even a ratted out C-150 would be a hardship. And for all it's worth, it might not even fit your mission profile (have you ever tried going somewhere on a certified two seater?...It's painful). Just rent. I would if the local FBO wasn't a total scumbag. 120/hr for a 172M with no IFR GPS? I'll play flight simulator instead....

I've garnered some passion for the experimental RVs as it's truly a useful airplane as far as being fun, fast and simple system based. But their purchase price is way out of my tolerance level. I echo the sentiments here, financing is not something I really wish for myself in the aircraft arena, considering all these ongoing operating costs. I could afford to finance it, but not use it. I could afford to use it, but not finance it. It's a freggin catch-22.

I did the numbers when comparing to the median renter and realized recreational flying is simply beyond the reach of the median wage earner. I made monthly cost benchmarks: 500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500/mo. That is the kind of monthly amortized-to-annual outlay of cash the activity of flying takes out of your net home income every month. Most renters fell in the 500-750/mo catgeory, many on much much less. Owning a 150 is on 500/mo catgeory, and I'm not getting any of my mission profile out of it. 1000/mo? Most people simply can't afford a continual outlay of cash in that regime for occassional monthly flying. They simply can't. That's where the majority of your vintage rat traps fall under. Then you have the truly useful and expensive ships, those are the 1500/mo and above category. As you can see, it's unaffordable.

On 20K/yr income. Brother, no way no how. It can't be done responsibly. You won't even get financing. even if you could you shouldn't do it. I hear ya it sucks. You gotta make more money.

The other thing people aren't looking at is the financing game has changed. Minimum loan amounts these days are 25K and they won't finance for 20 years unless the amounts exceed 50K depending on the lender. So you're looking at 10 year loans for the low amounts. You get car loans with better rates for that amount. So there's certainly a lack of financing market for the under 50K aircraft out there.

As to the costs year by year, no doubt renting is way cheaper. Just like homes, renting allows you to stop-start-stop your costs on command. If you finance you're stuck with that amount month after month. One bad month and you're now sweating. Forget that. And good luck selling anything in this market. I have a C-150, a ratted out one, and paid cash for it. About the only thing I get out of the premium I pay over renting is that I have access to it on command. That's about it. These things are the cheapest certified contraption out there for flying, and it's still a money pit. 800 for gyro overhaul/replacement. 450 dollars for wiring harness. 250 for a battery. Another 350 for tires. insurance is about the only cheap thing (for me was 450/yr with only $16K hull coverage) and I run mogas so it's about 2.60/gal. If you run 100LL then forget it, my gas costs would double or I would fly half as much, which would increase my per hour cost on top of it. Then there are transponder checks and pitot static checks. I'm gonna plead the fifth on those and leave it at that :rolleyes:. Bottom line, nickle and dime, nickle and dime.

Truth is nobody expected these 70s vintage contraptions to be the workhorses of recreational General Aviation in 2010. As such, they are mx prone because everything in them is old, brittle and due for replacement. But even after you overhaul everything you still have a 40 yo airplane. Cessna calls a 162 affordable...gimme a break. I guess I'll continue to swallow asbestos and whatever crap comes out of my air vents everytime I touch the thing, in my C150 for the premium of not paying 110K for a 2010 de facto 150. Oh an the engine is one failure away from putting the thing in the scrapyard...blow-by for sure in one or more cylinder, cylinders are 400 a pop, A&P wants to clean your savings account everytime you have to open the cowling....no way I'm putting 15-20K on an airplane I paid 15K for.....and surprise surprise, I don't have 15K to dump on an 50 year old O-200 technology engine, nor I would want to (I have the 15K, but not for that...). That said, neither do most "aircraft owners". We're all one overhaul away from shortselling these rat traps...I want to go places, 90kts and 400fpm single pilot on a good day is simply not a useful way to get any fun out of traveling. So consider your mission. Putzing around the home field gets old quick.

Yea, in your situation even a ratted out C-150 would be a hardship. And for all it's worth, it might not even fit your mission profile (have you ever tried going somewhere on a certified two seater?...It's painful). Just rent. I would if the local FBO wasn't a total scumbag. 120/hr for a 172M with no IFR GPS? I'll play flight simulator instead....

I've garnered some passion for the experimental RVs as it's truly a useful airplane as far as being fun, fast and simple system based. But their purchase price is way out of my tolerance level. I echo the sentiments here, financing is not something I really wish for myself in the aircraft arena, considering all these ongoing operating costs. I could afford to finance it, but not use it. I could afford to use it, but not finance it. It's a freggin catch-22.

I did the numbers when comparing to the median renter and realized recreational flying is simply beyond the reach of the median wage earner. I made monthly cost benchmarks: 500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500/mo. That is the kind of monthly amortized-to-annual outlay of cash the activity of flying takes out of your net home income every month. Most renters fell in the 500-750/mo catgeory, many on much much less. Owning a 150 is on 500/mo catgeory, and I'm not getting any of my mission profile out of it. 1000/mo? Most people simply can't afford a continual outlay of cash in that regime for occassional monthly flying. They simply can't. That's where the majority of your vintage rat traps fall under. Then you have the truly useful and expensive ships, those are the 1500/mo and above category. As you can see, it's unaffordable.

On 20K/yr income. Brother, no way no how. It can't be done responsibly. You won't even get financing. even if you could you shouldn't do it. I hear ya it sucks. You gotta make more money.

Great post hindsight! This is absolutity the reason the financial system is in the mess it is right now. The only thing people should finance is a home unless your car dies or something, then go buy an old cheap one.
20K a year is not enough for owenership.
+1

Aircraft ownership is expensive and not practical in many applications, but how can we dull the pain in ownership?

A long while back I looked into the cost of becoming a certified A&P mechanic and found the cost to be around at the time $18,000 for a 2yr program. How much $ could we save if we were certified to do our own work, repairs, overhauls? And then there would be only the cost of parts...$18,000 for a certification should save a lot of labor costs in a $10,000 engine overhaul.

Secondly an airplane is not a car and we will not use it everyday. Partnership makes a lot of sense to me. You will still have the freedom to use the aircraft most of the time but can divide the cost between a partner. And with YOU being the A&P, you can also factor in the cost of the parts and your labor with your partner which would be much less if the two of you had the work done by someone else.

And finally, I agree with everyone that an aircraft should be paid with cash and not financed.

What does everyone else think about this? :o

The guy who runs the Gliderport here in Wichita is an A&P and that is how he keeps his two ships in the air on a shoestring budget. They are both rat traps but they run most of the time. When one goes offline he gets the other one out until all the work is done on the other one without spending any real money. Neither is good for anything but glider towing, which represents the fact that keeping an IFR plane online is more expensive than maintaining a pattern beater. I would say an older 182 is about the best deal all around for a low end airplane owner because it is not a bad cross country airplane, usually easy to keep in basic IFR shape, and it does all the things a small family airplane should do. But you may need to share it with a few other pilots to be economical.

An idea I had was to sell my cessna 150 and use the proceeds as a down payment for a brand new Cessna Skycatcher.

As we have learned older planes can nickle and dime you to death. By my loose calculations one can easily spend more on upgrading, repairing and maintaining an old plane or they could buy a new one that comes with a new engine, paint, avionics and interior and make a monthly payment instead.

Airplanes seem to be closer to a real estate investment than a consumable. They have proven to be able to last 30 years or more if they are well maintained. The Skycatcher is in the LSA category. As such an owner can maintain their LSA plane after a 6 week course and inspect it after a 16 hour class.

I am a member of a cessna club. Guys there commonly shell out 20K for an old rat trap and another 22K on a new engine plus 15K on paint then comes a new interior and avionics. By ther time they are done they have blown 60K on a 35 year old rat trap that is still only worth maybe 25K.

When you add it up over time I believe there is a compelling case for purchasing a new plane now if you are planning to fly for the next decade or two. Interest rates are low. Old planes will start to accumulate a pile of AD's. A new plane is better positioned for the future. Even at 120K for a new Skycatcher.

Just an idea.

Skyhigh

Many years ago I came to a road block in my aviation career. I was laid off during the recession of the early 1990's from my instructing job in Anchorage. There were no instructing jobs to be had. My solution was to buy a Cessna 150 and instruct out of it. The problem was that I did not have much money.

To make a long story short I ended up living in my truck and flight instructing out of my own plane for cash without being fully insured. I lived on the run from airport managers and had to keep moving from airport to airport.

My students commonly bought me lunch and I did some odd jobs on the side to bring money in. In the long run it worked out. I sold the plane for a small profit two years later and built a few hundred hours in it. I never had a major maintenance issue.

It was especially useful for job hunting. I would fly from airport to airport dropping off resumes wherever I went. I flew it out into the bush and met with several part 135 operators and ended up getting a job that way.

Skyhigh

During the Golden Age of GA (roughly 1955 to 1970), small business owners were the prime buyers in the light piston category- they were not hobby flyers they were motivated business travelers with people to meet. Most of the current cadre of light piston airplanes we keep using today owe their existence to small business owners of the time, a buying demographic barely exists any more. Light piston twins as a fresh commodity have almost disappeared in their absence. They travel now by airline or by interstate and the remaining cargo is much cheaper UPS or by Part 135 box hauler. The small businessperson no longer needs and airplane of their own. It still is an excellent way to get around, it just isn't the cheapest way any more. Many or most of the small airports in this country are turning into subdivisions, and buying a new airplane that can haul a thousand pounds now means getting a Cirrus, Corvalis, or perhaps a Piper product but not a twin. Safety has increased but sales are way down.

A new Cessna 150 was $15,000 in 1975 or about $60,000 today, so the relative selling price has doubled. You get a somewhat better airplane now in a Skycatcher or similar LSA, but light pistons selling so many less is pretty obviously due to their costing too much. On the other hand, if you split the cost with a single partner then you are back to the single owner levels of the past, and that's probably ok since they do not tend to fly very much.

Our national highway system did a lot to kill GA. Why mess with the hassle of pre-flight and renting a car when you can get there faster by car anyway.

Skyhigh

I agree with Skyhigh on the purchase of a new Cessna Skycatcher vs. a Cessna 150/152.

As such an owner can maintain their LSA plane after a 6 week course and inspect it after a 16 hour class.


I was not aware of this and this adds another "pro" to my LSA list. Overhauls still seem to be the biggest cost to the owner. Could an LSA owner perform an engine overhaul?

Another question I have is that the 51% rule in homebuilt aircraft gives the owner the right to perform all of his/her own maintenance if it's registered as an experimental?

I agree with Skyhigh on the purchase of a new Cessna Skycatcher vs. a Cessna 150/152.



I was not aware of this and this adds another "pro" to my LSA list. Overhauls still seem to be the biggest cost to the owner. Could an LSA owner perform an engine overhaul?

Another question I have is that the 51% rule in homebuilt aircraft gives the owner the right to perform all of his/her own maintenance if it's registered as an experimental?


With experimental, the owner can perform all their own maintenance with the exception of the conditional inspection (same as an annual inspection). If the owner is also the builder of that specific plane (not just type) then they can get a repairman's certificate for that plane and do the conditional inspection also.

If you did not build the plane, then you need an A&P for the conditional inspection. No need for an A&P IA.

Relevant opinion from AOPA email.

Can we build them less expensively? (http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=1035)

(AOPA Online, 8/6, Bruce Landsberg) Does anybody, besides me, think the cost of new aircraft is a bit high? Those who know better have constantly advised that it’s not the absolute cost but the value that one derives from the purchase. And how does this tie into safety and training anyway? Hold that thought. Up to a point, the value argument is true. However, when one gets far enough up the economic pyramid the equation becomes moot for most of us. I just can’t stand that much pleasure or utility out of whatever the product purports to offer. Doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations, I came across the pricing of a 1980 C172 (with Navpak II option – basic IFR) at approximately $40,000...

Relevant opinion from AOPA email.

Can we build them less expensively? (http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=1035)

(AOPA Online, 8/6, Bruce Landsberg)/10) Does anybody, besides me, think the cost of new aircraft is a bit high? Those who know better have constantly advised that it’s not the absolute cost but the value that one derives from the purchase. And how does this tie into safety and training anyway? Hold that thought. Up to a point, the value argument is true. However, when one gets far enough up the economic pyramid the equation becomes moot for most of us. I just can’t stand that much pleasure or utility out of whatever the product purports to offer. Doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations, I came across the pricing of a 1980 C172 (with Navpak II option – basic IFR) at approximately $40,000. By comparison, a mid-priced car was about $7,500. In 2009, the Skyhawk, admittedly with Garmin 1000 and perhaps a larger engine was about $280,000. It appears that the market is not quite convinced that the performance and utility benefits are worth the differential. The car weighed in at about $30,000. That works out to a four-fold increase for car and seven-fold increase for aircraft. We could certainly indulge in the value discussion and this is NOT intended as bash of the manufacturers. Business these days is expensive and the government, despite adding lots of benefit, doesn’t make it any cheaper. Light Sport Aircraft are much less expensive but even they are not cheap and then the discussion turns to why buy a new LSA for $130,000 when perfectly good used Skyhawks or Warriors are available for $80,000. My point is that somebody, at some time, HAS to but new aircraft. We won’t survive on recycling forever. Why focus on redesigning or incrementally improving the product instead of figuring out how to build an existing aircraft more affordably? When NASA and various organizations sponsor design competitions they invariably look to newer, faster, more capable but I don’t recall anybody looking at how to build a Cessna 182, Warrior or Bonanza (all mature designs) with fewer parts and reduced labor cost. Getting back to training and in looking at the cost of becoming a pilot, the only thing that appears to be disproportionately expensive is the aircraft. This all ties into our initiative to address the shrinking pilot population. Fuel, instructor pay, basic avionics and course materials have either kept up or lagged with inflation. So, what am I missing?

Didn't you work for Cessna? If so why then don't you tell us?

Skyhigh

I must say that I really enjoy being a Cessna 150 owner. It gives me great joy on many levels. I am the chief pilot, director of maintenance, ramper, dispatcher, Flight Attendant. Simple, fun, low stress. It does exactly what I want which is to get into the sky once in a while.

Tons of fun. :)

I do not miss my Taylorcraft or Piper Apache though. :p Less is truly more.

Skyhigh

I must keep things somewhat confidential about what I do because APC is a public forum and I intend to keep my job. However, I feel your pain in terms of the steep prices these days for new GA piston aircraft from Cessna and other domestic makes. Bruce Landis and the rest of us are not alone in this regard. A new airplane is a daunting purchase for most of the middle class. Even the upper-middle has trouble with it. As a Wichita engineer I am sorry we have to buy a share of a single engine airplane while hoping the other 2 owners takes care of our shared airplane. It is a humble proposition.

What I know about Wichita manufacturing cost and profit on a new piston aircraft is fairly limited, just what I read in the papers. I will venture the guess that profit on a new Skycatcher is fairly low. The volume of sales is low and I have heard the profit on Cessna props like the Caravan, C172SP, C206H, and C182 is perilously small. Cessna is challenged by labor and supply costs on these models. Cessna has laid off some Independence, KS workers and cut production on all its models. Cessna would only do this if they were not selling as many airplanes as before the recession. As a businessman you know that reduced production means higher costs per unit. They can't make money on low volume.

The best way to make money is through volume sales. None of these airplanes is selling in enough to make a serious profit. All of these models are losing money right now including the business jets. I am certain about that, and I give you that as an insider. The name of the game these days in Wichita is cost-cutting. Many companies are getting radical in this regard. Cessna has Indian and Mexican facilities for engineering and assembly and has laid-off American employees by the thousand since 2009. Just this month another large Wichita small aircraft manufacturer has indicated they wish leave the state altogether if costs cannot be cut drastically. The reality is, we are lucky to have a viable American small aircraft industry at all these days.

I put my vote toward insurance and lawyers.
The cost of those two are driving the price (and then, cost of ownership) through the roof on just about everything.

(although I have no actual evidence...) I believe if you eliminate those to factors, the price of a new aircraft would be "reasonable."


Anyone have any inside information on the breakdown of manufacturing costs for Cessna?

I toured a small local aircraft manufacturer lately. They have something like 98 workers to produce 5 planes a month. It is no wonder they cost over 150K each. Each workers earns their wage plus health care, labor and industries insurance, retirement, ect... Then you have overhead like paying for the cost of the building and liability insurance.

If they could spread all those costs out over 500 planes a month then the price could be cut significantly. GA is fading and the resulting low volumes are finishing the job. Send them all to Mexico or China where costs are low.

Skyhigh

So basically GA is on the way out or so it seems. I want to buy 150 to build time because instructing is going to take forever and I need to supplement my time some how.

So basically GA is on the way out or so it seems. I want to buy 150 to build time because instructing is going to take forever and I need to supplement my time some how.

I have had great luck owning a cessna 150. Stay cheap and simple. Resist the urge to blow a fortune on fancy radios. Stay away from new paint. Run the engine into dust. Build time.

Skyhigh

Yup that's what I'm thinking.

I have had great luck owning a cessna 150. Stay cheap and simple. Resist the urge to blow a fortune on fancy radios. Stay away from new paint. Run the engine into dust. Build time.

Skyhigh
Hey Sky,

What do you mean when you say "build time"? Are you referring to cheaper insurance rates for the owner or is it in reference to building enough time to obtain a flying job? I think thats a good idea if someone is able to afford an airplane to do either. Building time can only help make a pilot better wheather its for cheaper insurance OR to build experience for a possible aviation career.:)

Build time for a job is what I'm gathering.

Hey Sky,

What do you mean when you say "build time"? Are you referring to cheaper insurance rates for the owner or is it in reference to building enough time to obtain a flying job? I think thats a good idea if someone is able to afford an airplane to do either. Building time can only help make a pilot better wheather its for cheaper insurance OR to build experience for a possible aviation career.:)

The OP was trying to figure out way to build flight time. My position is that buying a Cessna 150 is an excellent way to build flight time for less. Getting a good job as a flight instructor is going to be difficult these days. Buying a cheap plane and flying the wings off of it is a solid alternative.

If a new pilot were to skip the CFI, IA and MEI they could afford a Cessna 150 instead. They are really cheap right now.

Skyhigh

Aircraft ownership is expensive and not practical in many applications, but how can we dull the pain in ownership?

A long while back I looked into the cost of becoming a certified A&P mechanic and found the cost to be around at the time $18,000 for a 2yr program. How much $ could we save if we were certified to do our own work, repairs, overhauls? And then there would be only the cost of parts...$18,000 for a certification should save a lot of labor costs in a $10,000 engine overhaul.

Secondly an airplane is not a car and we will not use it everyday. Partnership makes a lot of sense to me. You will still have the freedom to use the aircraft most of the time but can divide the cost between a partner. And with YOU being the A&P, you can also factor in the cost of the parts and your labor with your partner which would be much less if the two of you had the work done by someone else.

And finally, I agree with everyone that an aircraft should be paid with cash and not financed.

What does everyone else think about this? :o

Anyone want to address this? I'm hunting A&P jobs right now and when I finally land one and settle down, pay off a little debt.. I would love the opportunity to buy a cheap, hopefully low time, IFR trainer. Then, find a CFI to get me all the ratings possible in that aircraft.

Which kind of leads me down another trail. I believe you have to have some time in a complex/HP aircraft to obtain your commercial? What about the CFI, CFII? I guess at that point you would just be shelling out extra money to rent the appropriate aircraft?

Anyway, back to the topic... It seems to me the best thing about owning (for the purpose of adding ratings) is that you get to sell it when you're ready to move on. You should get a large percentage of the investment back, correct? Granted nothing catestrophic happens. And if you're spinning wrenches on it yourself, you should save a boat load as well. The possibility to OH the engine yourself before selling seems crutial.

In my experience I have owned several planes and to date have not lost any money upon sale. My best conquest was a float plane that I bought for $15,500 and sold a decade later for $36,500. All I put into it was the occasional annual inspection and that was it.

Currently airplanes have depreciated considerably. My guess is that now is a good time to buy since the prices are very low. Hopefully over the next few years they should recover some and climb back a bit.

A common problem I have noticed is that some pilots can not leave their planes alone (especially mechanics). My brother bought a perfectly good piper Cherokee 140 and then proceeded to change and upgrade nearly everything about it. Along the way he complained about how much it cost to own a plane.

My advice is to resist the urge to automatically overhaul at TBO. Avoid the temptation to upgrade and improve and fly the wings off it as it is. I owned a cessna 150 years ago and let my brother fly it as much as he wanted. I also used it for flight instruction. In the end we put over 600 hours on it and sold it unaltered to an A&P who then tore it apart to make it "better".

The plane was working fine but the new owner could not leave it alone. In the end he sold it in disgust to someone else for a bit more than he paid for it and lost many thousands in costly unnecessary replacements and repairs. The new and current owner has enjoyed it for many years of problem free aviation thanks to the diligent work of the (A&P) previous owner. When buying a plane look at the owner as much as you look at the plane. If the guy was constantly buying small parts and tidbits that seemed to be unnecessary then perhaps it is a good plane to buy.

Lastly don't get into a partnership if you can help it. Buy a 150 yourself and fly the wings off of it without someone else to nickle and dime your plane into being grounded. Don't get a 172 or 182. Don't buy an expensive panel mounted GPS. Don't blow all your cash on trim and paint. Keep an airworthy and safe plane but aside from that just spend your money on avgas and fly.

Skyhigh

Check out this little fella. Seems to be pretty well equipped for a 152, although a DME would be the icing on the cake. Price seems more than fair. I wish I was in the position to purchase right now, that A&P job can't come soon enough!

1978 152 (http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-152/1978-CESSNA-152/1175769.htm)

I flew my 150 yesterday and it was awesome !

Skyhigh

In my experience I have owned several planes and to date have not lost any money upon sale. My best conquest was a float plane that I bought for $15,500 and sold a decade later for $36,500. All I put into it was the occasional annual inspection and that was it.

Currently airplanes have depreciated considerably. My guess is that now is a good time to buy since the prices are very low. Hopefully over the next few years they should recover some and climb back a bit.

A common problem I have noticed is that some pilots can not leave their planes alone (especially mechanics). My brother bought a perfectly good piper Cherokee 140 and then proceeded to change and upgrade nearly everything about it. Along the way he complained about how much it cost to own a plane.

My advice is to resist the urge to automatically overhaul at TBO. Avoid the temptation to upgrade and improve and fly the wings off it as it is. I owned a cessna 150 years ago and let my brother fly it as much as he wanted. I also used it for flight instruction. In the end we put over 600 hours on it and sold it unaltered to an A&P who then tore it apart to make it "better".

The plane was working fine but the new owner could not leave it alone. In the end he sold it in disgust to someone else for a bit more than he paid for it and lost many thousands in costly unnecessary replacements and repairs. The new and current owner has enjoyed it for many years of problem free aviation thanks to the diligent work of the (A&P) previous owner. When buying a plane look at the owner as much as you look at the plane. If the guy was constantly buying small parts and tidbits that seemed to be unnecessary then perhaps it is a good plane to buy.

Lastly don't get into a partnership if you can help it. Buy a 150 yourself and fly the wings off of it without someone else to nickle and dime your plane into being grounded. Don't get a 172 or 182. Don't buy an expensive panel mounted GPS. Don't blow all your cash on trim and paint. Keep an airworthy and safe plane but aside from that just spend your money on avgas and fly.

Skyhigh


Good post, Sky. I can stand solidly behind all this advice. Even better would be doing what you said plus have your own A&P certificate for the occasional repair and annuals, plus an STC for mogas so you can buy car gasoline from the 7-11. There is no cheaper and more cost effective way to own a small airplane than these methods. When you strike it rich one day you can buy a new one, otherwise keep flying as described.

Check out this little fella. Seems to be pretty well equipped for a 152, although a DME would be the icing on the cake. Price seems more than fair. I wish I was in the position to purchase right now, that A&P job can't come soon enough!

1978 152 (http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-152/1978-CESSNA-152/1175769.htm)

Yeah except the engine is almost due for the overhaul. Not sure what a 152 engine overhaul is but I would imagine at least 15k. I know part 91 does not have mandatory compliance with TBO, but it is a pretty high time engine. Maybe you could negotiate the cost of an engine overhaul into the price. I know some places do that with Annuals, although an annual is considerably less expensive than engine/prop overhauls.

Edit: I know there is a long debate about when to overhaul an engine. Some say since part 91 does not have mandatory compliance, to run it way past TBO, while others say go right at (or near) TBO. People who advocate for running way past TBO say you save a lot of money on needless, FAA required work. While others say the wear and tear on the engine by running past TBO will cost more in the long run. Who knows.

Good post, Sky. I can stand solidly behind all this advice. Even better would be doing what you said plus have your own A&P certificate for the occasional repair and annuals, plus an STC for mogas so you can buy car gasoline from the 7-11. There is no cheaper and more cost effective way to own a small airplane than these methods. When you strike it rich one day you can buy a new one, otherwise keep flying as described.

I agree an A&P would be great however aircraft owners can already legally do a lot of their own maintenance. An owner assist annual is a big help as well. I also like Mogas. My Cessna 150 thrives on it. Thankfully I can still get alcohol free gas where I live.

I have bought gas from Arco and 7-11 and found it to be full or water and other contaminants. My advise is to find a reputable fuel supplier like a farm co-op and buy your fuel there. I would not chase cheap fuel to put into a plane.

Where I live $17.65 buys me about an hour of flight time on premium auto fuel.

Skyhigh

Another article discussing the erosion of buying power in this area.

AvWeb Column- Paul Bertorelli (http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVWebInsider_WonderBread_203358-1.html)

Another article discussing the erosion of buying power in this area.

AvWeb Column- Paul Bertorelli (http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/AVWebInsider_WonderBread_203358-1.html)

Thanks !

Skyhigh