Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : International travel questions


ce650
11-03-2010, 04:23 AM
As our company grows and our passengers are talking more about the possibility of going to Europe and South America, we are looking into more capeable aircraft.

One question I have that I am getting different answers on is inertial nav systems. Some of the planes we have looked at it is standard equip. some planes are not. I know people fly Citations across the ocean without Inertial nav all the time and one MFG demo pilot told me its not needed. Whats the opinoin of operators here who do International ops.

The planes I am talking about are the Hawker 4000, The Challenger 300 and the G250.


grimmdj
11-03-2010, 04:29 AM
We take our Sovereigns to Europe and China with the standard equipment. New Sovereigns can get IRU's and Autothrottles as a option for those ocean flights.
Dave

taxi1wire
11-03-2010, 08:09 AM
There are several things to think about for overwater ops.
An IRS should be high on the list as if GPS or an AHRS fails you are done and you will have no MEL relief. The IRS can supply both position and attitude indications in most equipped planes.
An APU that works at altitude for backup power generation is also a must. Several of those aircraft mentioned do not have inflight or very limited altitude inflight use.
Also to be considered is baggage compartment fire warning and suppression.
Does it have a single or dual HF radio/Selcal?
Remember the OEM will tell you anything to sell a plane. Most importantly range and payloed is never as advertised.


QuietSpike
11-03-2010, 06:12 PM
I agree with 1wire.

If you are going to do a lot of intl ops, then an INS as a backup is a *must*.

Dual HF is a *must*.

APU is a *must*.


The three planes you are talking about, here is a quick breakdown-- and even though I used to demo gulfstream, I have *zero* loyalty to any manufacturer.

The hawker 4000-- old plane. Even though it is brand new, it is a 15 year old design. Product support and cost per hour are lacking compared to the other two.

Challenger 300-- Great plane, but small cabin compared to the other two. Clean cockpit, good performance. Customer support is not great at all. Not as long a range as the G250.

G250-- this is the winner, hands down. Longest range at fastest cruise speed, and I have heard that it is exceeding published numbers in testing. Best avionics suite, best options (HUD, EVS, Autothrottles), and by far the best cabin. Not to mention the best customer support.

Again, I am not getting anything out of this, and after getting laid off would love nothing more for you to buy something other than a gulfstream!! however facts are facts, and the G250 is going to blow the competition away in the super mid-size cabin aircraft.

Hope this helps..

by the way-- my company will do consulting and comparisons (a lot more detailed than this!!) for a nominal fee! :)

good luck!

-spike

BoilerUP
11-04-2010, 03:25 AM
New Sovereigns can get IRU's and Autothrottles as a option for those ocean flights.

Really...when did that happen?

I would have thought Cessna would have announced the availability of IRU & AT as an option in the Sovereign; Gulfstream marketed both quite publicly for the G150.

BoilerUP
11-04-2010, 03:26 AM
Also, the Challenger 300 has a larger cabin than the H4000...and the G250 ain't available yet and probably won't be for at least a couple years though yes, as the newest super-mid it will have the best performance.

QuietSpike
11-04-2010, 05:02 AM
First 250 delivery is scheduled for end of next year-- and they have not been selling a lot! When I got laid off the number was 12... (see, no loyalty anymore as that number was 'classified' when I was there!! :) )

You would get it early 2012 I would guess, and that is not a bad wait for a biz-jet, considering in the height of the market it would have been at least 2 years.

My mistake, the CL300 is 100 cubic feet bigger than the H4000- 860 to 762 respectively. Also, the H4000 and CL300 are comparable in price, and the G250 is significantly more than the others... so it *should* be better!! :)

-spike

Tgaug6300
11-04-2010, 09:54 AM
What price point are you looking at is the next question.

QuietSpike
11-04-2010, 10:30 AM
What price point are you looking at is the next question.

well he said they were looking at the CL300, H4000, and G250... so obviously their price point is 20-24 million.

If not, then they are looking at the wrong aircraft! :)

UCLAbruins
11-05-2010, 05:29 PM
The planes I am talking about are the Hawker 4000, The Challenger 300 and the G250.


Hell, I'd push for the CL300. The G250 might have a better range, but as far as performance the CL300 rocks.. and convince your company to go for a livery like this one (just kidding).

Photos: Bombardier BD-100-1A10 Challenger 300 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unicorp/Bombardier-BD-100-1A10-Challenger/1790960/L/&sid=37a603b71d9856496e5706e4c9eafea3)

grimmdj
11-06-2010, 06:33 AM
Boilerup,
IRU's have been available and Safeflight had all the ICAS messages installed with the Phase 5 upgrade to Epic a few months back.
Same with Lithium-Ion batteries.
Dave

BoilerUP
11-06-2010, 06:50 AM
Boilerup,
IRU's have been available and Safeflight had all the ICAS messages installed with the Phase 5 upgrade to Epic a few months back.
Same with Lithium-Ion batteries.
Dave

Dave,

I've had more than a couple conversations with Cessna salesmen over the last two years, some specifically about the Sovereign, and not once has the availability of IRUs for the Sovereign been mentioned or presented in promotional materials for the aircraft.

Also, Safe Flight's website does not show AutoPower ATs for the Sovereign, though they do for the X.

Again, Gulfstream goes out of their way in their promotional materials to make it known that both IRU and autothrottle are available as options in the G150; if both are presently or will soon be available in the Sovereign, why doesn't Cessna market it?

Like I posted previously,

grimmdj
11-06-2010, 09:31 AM
Boilerup,
I think there are some more upcoming announcements for the Sovereign, and I am betting they all will be in the "package".
Dave

QuietSpike
11-07-2010, 04:34 PM
Hell, I'd push for the CL300. The G250 might have a better range, but as far as performance the CL300 rocks.. and convince your company to go for a livery like this one (just kidding).

Photos: Bombardier BD-100-1A10 Challenger 300 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unicorp/Bombardier-BD-100-1A10-Challenger/1790960/L/&sid=37a603b71d9856496e5706e4c9eafea3)


That livery *rocks*!!!


As far as the performance of the 250 vs CL300... the 250 is going to be better-- a scaled down 550 wing with the same engines as the CL300... it is going to be amazing. Better time to climb, better cruise, longer range, bigger cabin... it will be the class line-leader! :)

Not to mention .80 LRC-- and you save absolutely nothing by going slower! Credit where credit is due...