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floydbird
11-13-2010, 03:41 PM
Just an informal poll on what what some corporate operators do out there with regard to max flight/duty times....if any. We operate a few large jets, and we are now formulating what would be safe and reasonable limits.

What are the maximum number of flight hours allowed per day?
What are the maximum number of duty hours allowed per day?

I know there are no FAR limits in this scenario...just looking for what "in-house" policies are out there.

Thanks


zyttocs
11-13-2010, 05:25 PM
We're a single plane single pilot part 91 corporate operation. Unlike many single pilot single aircraft corporate flight departments, in addition to flying the Boss, I also fly a wide variety of other members of the company.

I've run into issues of being asked to depart at 0600 after returning at 2200 or 2300 the night before. I've ended up being able to educate the scheduler as to my need to get rest between flights.

Basically we've established an understanding that flight's should be scheduled to allow me a minimum of 10 hours away from the airport over night between flight, with day time down time away from home base to be used as I see necessary to get rest.

We're actually in the process of writing that very thing into our Ops Manual.

So far it's working out.

galaxy flyer
11-13-2010, 05:32 PM
Our 91 operation uses 14 hours max crew duty day, extendable to 15 hours, not more than 2 consecutive days in a trip. Minimum crew rest is 12 hours, unless the duty day is restricted to 10 hours when it is 10 hours. No maximum daily flight hours, only duty time, but no more than 40 hours in 7 consecutive days. 36 consecutive hours free of duty every 7 days. We also have up to 3 post-trip days off.

GF


NowCorporate
11-13-2010, 06:10 PM
We have a chart to follow but basically the max we can ever go is 18hrs duty with 3 pilots....followed by 24hrs rest.

We never hang out in FBOs all day, we dont land at 2300 and leave at 0600 or any crap like that..etc...but where we get maxed out is long trips that require 3 pilots and the rest issue is never an easy one...rest areas just are not that great on these planes, you wind up with 3 tired pilots.

Its just going to get worse with planes having longer and longer range. 8000+nm in a corporate jet?...no thanks..:(

floydbird
11-13-2010, 07:04 PM
Just for reference, we are considering a 14 hour duty day extending to 16 hours for unforeseen circumstances, and 11 hours flight time max. It seems like that is in the ballpark for the people that have responded so far? Others chime in please!

7Xdriver
11-14-2010, 03:01 AM
Just an informal poll on what what some corporate operators do out there with regard to max flight/duty times....if any. We operate a few large jets, and we are now formulating what would be safe and reasonable limits.

What are the maximum number of flight hours allowed per day?
What are the maximum number of duty hours allowed per day?

I know there are no FAR limits in this scenario...just looking for what "in-house" policies are out there.

Thanks

We are a Corporate 91 Operator and our policy is:

Standard -

Flight time: 10hrs
Duty day: 14hrs/16hrs with day room
Rest prior to duty: 10hrs

3 Pilot crew-

Flight time: 14.5hrs with 1 leg segment
Duty day: 16hrs
Rest prior to duty: 12hrs

Circadian Low ops-

Flight time: 10hrs
Duty Day: 12hrs
Rest prior to duty: 12hrs

geosynchronus
11-14-2010, 04:47 AM
We are a Part 91 operator as well, with IS/BAO Stage One complete. Here is our crew duty guidance:


a) Duty time begins 1 hours prior to scheduled takeoff and ends hour after landing
b) The normal duty period will be 14 hours or less.
c) If the crew is scheduled for a duty day >14 hours but <18 hours, an 8.0 hour rest period will be scheduled in a hotel during the duty period.
d) The maximum duty day scheduled will be 18 hours.
e) Maximum scheduled flight time will be 10 hours per day.
f) The normal rest period is 10 hours after a 14 hour duty period.
g) A minimum rest period of 12 hours will be used if a 14 hour duty day is exceeded.

Crew availability shall be as follows:

a) Pilots not on vacation should be able to report to the hangar within two hours of notification.
b) During trips, pilots shall be available within two hours in order to respond to unexpected schedule changes.
c) Pilots are considered to be on “standby duty” between the hours of 0800 and 1700 central time; Monday through Friday, excluding company recognized holidays.

BoilerUP
11-14-2010, 10:31 AM
Just for reference, we are considering a 14 hour duty day extending to 16 hours for unforeseen circumstances, and 11 hours flight time max. It seems like that is in the ballpark for the people that have responded so far? Others chime in please!

I think that is quite reasonable, although personally I'd rather see a minimum rest period than a max flight hour limit. I am much less fatigued by flying than I am sitting around FBOs all day long.

We unfortunately do not have published duty/rest times, and thanks to "those who came before me" and the precedent they set, duty/rest conflicts are the ONLY thing my boss occasionally gives me pushback on.

We work with our scheduler to "try" to use 14 hours max duty/10 hours min rest, but there are times where we go 16 hours for unscheduled delays in order to get back home. I want to remain flexible for our company & staff since they're REALLY busy in meetings on the road and I don't mind the occasional 16 hour day for rain to be made if we're not scheduled to fly early the next day, but do I make sure to tell our passengers when we have an early departure scheduled the next day so they understand why its important they stay on schedule.

Sometimes, the powers that be want to do 2 crews' worth of flying with 2 pilots and that simply doesn't work. Thankfully, contract pilots are an option if necessary and usually, we're able to massage the schedule to accommodate passenger needs while allowing us plenty of rest.

I have a feeling this IS-BAO racket is going to cause us to come up with something to put on paper, but one Stage 2 company's policy I've seen is quite flexible, starting at 14/10 and flexing up or down based on duty-on time, day room use, number of landings, augmented crew, etc.

floydbird
11-14-2010, 11:20 AM
Yeah I left our minimum rest out by accident. It's set at 8 hours right now.

AKASHA
11-14-2010, 05:00 PM
I think the simple answer is you institute 135 regs. Of course, there are all kinds of hybrid and in-between variations if you want to get complicated. But basically, if you're Part 91 and feel you are flying so much that you need some guidance on duty/flight times, then use 135.

I guess the difficult thing here becomes the question of "pop-up" flights. But there's no generic answer to that question. It depends on the flight department, their habits, the number of airplanes and so on. Yea, you might have to make yourself available 24/7.

Wow.. what a tough job we have! :)

NowCorporate
11-14-2010, 06:26 PM
I think the simple answer is you institute 135 regs. Of course, there are all kinds of hybrid and in-between variations if you want to get complicated. But basically, if you're Part 91 and feel you are flying so much that you need some guidance on duty/flight times, then use 135.

I guess the difficult thing here becomes the question of "pop-up" flights. But there's no generic answer to that question. It depends on the flight department, their habits, the number of airplanes and so on. Yea, you might have to make yourself available 24/7.

Wow.. what a tough job we have! :)


Write all the manuals and rules you want....its all irrelevant.

Pt 91 operations are only as good as the people you are flying and the people running the department.

I know plenty of outfits with all sorts of books on the shelf full of rules and when the boss wants to break all those rules they just go along with it, scared to anger the man or lose their jobs.

Sometimes its quite a dance to get the job done (for the boss) and do it safely and humanely (for the department) - but its possible.

We largely go by FSF and NBAA guidelines for duty and rest - but we make it very clear we can accomplish ANYTHING - all its takes is tons of pilot and money.

AKASHA
11-15-2010, 06:25 AM
YEa.. what he said... you take care of the people who take care of you. Then you get a paycheck. Its pretty cool.

arvin
11-15-2010, 09:44 AM
We operate several jet aircraft part 91 and our rest consists of 14 on 10 off with exceptions for starting in a circadian low 2am - 4am = 12 hour duty. If you can get adequate rest at an FBO your 14 can extend 1 hour for every 2 of sleep opportunity you have. We can also short side the rest 7 hours (of sleep) = 7 hours of duty 8 hours (of sleep) = 8 hours of duty. 3 pilot crew can extend beyond to 18 - 20 hours of duty. Extensions require 12 hours off duty rest and 2 extensions in a row require 18 hours off duty.

- Arvin

PW305
11-15-2010, 01:12 PM
with exceptions for starting in a circadian low 2am - 4am = 12 hour duty

Is that based on home base time zone or local? Or does it depend?

Mink
11-15-2010, 05:52 PM
Write all the manuals and rules you want....its all irrelevant.

Pt 91 operations are only as good as the people you are flying and the people running the department.

I know plenty of outfits with all sorts of books on the shelf full of rules and when the boss wants to break all those rules they just go along with it, scared to anger the man or lose their jobs.

Sometimes its quite a dance to get the job done (for the boss) and do it safely and humanely (for the department) - but its possible.


This rings true. We are in the process of gearing up for IS-BAO, and I just wrote our ops manual. Since we have no scheduler/dispatcher, enforcing our duty and rest limits will be up to us. We'll see how it goes...

The dude
11-18-2010, 08:13 AM
He's exactly right about policies and manuals. When the boss comes up front and asks you to do something outside of your "policy" theres nobody but you to answer to. Luckily in our flight dept. the boss respects us as professionals and if we say no to a flight or an airport he just says "OK you guys are the boss". However, we're always looking for ways to get the job done rather than say no. We just use common sense.

NowCorporate
11-18-2010, 08:51 AM
He's exactly right about policies and manuals. When the boss comes up front and asks you to do something outside of your "policy" theres nobody but you to answer to. Luckily in our flight dept. the boss respects us as professionals and if we say no to a flight or an airport he just says "OK you guys are the boss". However, we're always looking for ways to get the job done rather than say no. We just use common sense.


Agree....anything is possible and we are happy to do it! (well....:()

All we need is tons of money and a lot of pilots. Position them all over the planet if you want to, whatever it takes we can do it...offer these solutions or acceptable alternates early in the planning stage.

Where the average pea-brain self titled pilot manager steps on his tiny pud is when he decides 3 days beofre the trip to take his little stand on "safety" to one of these Type A Masters of the Universe and consequently gets his a$$ (and his job?) handed to him really fast.

LOL.