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View Full Version : Getting into corporate flying


ashcroft
11-15-2010, 05:21 PM
Hey Guys/Girls,

I'm looking to get out of the Part 121 world and into corporate flying. Do any of you have any good advice on how to go about it. Please try to keep this thread on topic if you don't mind.

Currently I have about 7500 hours total time, 5000 turbine, 3400 PIC turbine and a couple of type ratings (just not on corporate jets) and am sitting in the pool for a major airline so it's not that I don't have the time requirements for just about any job it's more of I've been in the 121 world for 8 yrs now and have had my fill of it. I want something more involved and more challenging than what this job offers.

Thanks for any imput or advice.


BoilerUP
11-15-2010, 05:39 PM
You're just past the peak of the worst time in history to be looking for a corporate job...as such, there are many experienced, very highly qualified folks out of work. In this downturn, bizav folks took a much more severe beating than airline pilots did...

That said, the #1 thing you can and should do if you're thinking about changing segments is NETWORK. Networking might not directly lead to a job, but it could lead you to somebody who knows of an opening that works out for you. You can network on the internet (APC is good, ProPilotWorld.com is another) but nothing replaces folks you know - college friends & pilots you knew from your airline that made the jump previously are an excellent resource.

I spent 2 years at a regional before getting my current job that I've been in for 3 years. Compared to regional flying, the ONLY thing that is similar is flying an airplane point A to B - most everything else is different, and corporate departments run the gamut from a single Cirrus or Bonanza up through multi-airplane ultra-long range jets. Job duties & responsibilities are different, and some airline folks simply can't adjust. Its not just loading bags & filing flight plans - can you actually provide good service to your passengers with a smile? Do you care about light cabin cleaning or wiping bugs off after a flight/trip? If in a plane without a externally-serviceable lav will you balk at removing the honeypot?

Where do you want to live - are you flexible on that? What are your salary & lifestyle expectations? Do you have an ego about what kind of airplane you might fly? Can you be VERY flexible? Is the phrase "that's not my job" in your lexicon?

Again, given your qualifications I'm sure everybody knows you know how to fly a plane - its the intangible things that will (or won't) get you considered for a job. NETWORKING is key and others who have made a similar leap can give you first-hand advice...good luck!

ashcroft
11-15-2010, 06:04 PM
You're just past the peak of the worst time in history to be looking for a corporate job...as such, there are many experienced, very highly qualified folks out of work. In this downturn, bizav folks took a much more severe beating than airline pilots did...

That said, the #1 thing you can and should do if you're thinking about changing segments is NETWORK. Networking might not directly lead to a job, but it could lead you to somebody who knows of an opening that works out for you. You can network on the internet (APC is good, ProPilotWorld.com is another) but nothing replaces folks you know - college friends & pilots you knew from your airline that made the jump previously are an excellent resource.

I spent 2 years at a regional before getting my current job that I've been in for 3 years. Compared to regional flying, the ONLY thing that is similar is flying an airplane point A to B - most everything else is different, and corporate departments run the gamut from a single Cirrus or Bonanza up through multi-airplane ultra-long range jets. Job duties & responsibilities are different, and some airline folks simply can't adjust. Its not just loading bags & filing flight plans - can you actually provide good service to your passengers with a smile? Do you care about light cabin cleaning or wiping bugs off after a flight/trip? If in a plane without a externally-serviceable lav will you balk at removing the honeypot?

Where do you want to live - are you flexible on that? What are your salary & lifestyle expectations? Do you have an ego about what kind of airplane you might fly? Can you be VERY flexible? Is the phrase "that's not my job" in your lexicon?

Again, given your qualifications I'm sure everybody knows you know how to fly a plane - its the intangible things that will (or won't) get you considered for a job. NETWORKING is key and others who have made a similar leap can give you first-hand advice...good luck!


Thanks Boiler. No I have no issues with any of that (I grew up on a cattle farm so emptying the honey pot would be one the least descusting things I've done ha ha), as for the rest of the things on your list there that is more of what I'm talking about. I'm bored/tired of sit down fly, swap planes and repeat. I want something more hands on. I have no big shiny jet syndrome. I've looked at jobs flying Cessna 400's to just about anything else, and location is where ever. If I could for now I'd love to stay in the DC area but that is not to say I wouldn't move for a good job. I've even been considering going to the local fbo and applying for a job there so I can start meet and greeting people.

Anybody else have anything to add to what Boiler said?


BoilerUP
11-15-2010, 06:13 PM
If you live in the DC area, there are a handful of charter operators (and more than a couple corporate operators) in the area.

When I worked for AWAC out of DCA and lived in Maryland, I actually was offered an interview with Martainair out of RIC for a Beechjet job at IAD that I ended up turning down. Now this was early 2007 during "boom times" but they might be worth looking into; I think there's also some charter up around FDK and quite a few corporate operators in Baltimore.

Tgaug6300
11-15-2010, 07:19 PM
The only other thing I could add is that your flight time really isn't that important in the Corp world. You have an ATP, so we know you can fly an airplane (so you wont have anyone ask you how to figure a VDP, or ask you an approach chart question in an interview). Attitude is what will get you hired! Is this the kinda guy I can go on a five day trip with and not want to kill? Does he seem like a team player? We have had guys come to us with 20 thousand hours and 777 experience (and turned them away). We have also hired guys with wet ink on their ATPs and only 1500hrs. Be a team player, let them know you are not above helping with any details of a trip and you should be in good shape.

Likeabat
11-16-2010, 04:25 AM
I second everything said above - with particular emphasis on the "network" part. Sometimes you have to spend years developing relationships within a corporate department before an opportunity arises.

Did I mention you should network?

geosynchronus
11-16-2010, 06:11 AM
Some of the best networking opportunities occur at the NBAA regional forums or at any one of the local business aviation forums, such as the Greater Washington Business Aviation Association, since the DC area is your targeted market.

Greater Washington Business Aviation Association, Inc. (http://www.gwbaa.com/)

edznaz
11-16-2010, 12:39 PM
Did this myself, with similar stats. I tell folks the only thing the jobs have in common is that they both involve flight. Miss the relative stability and schedule of the airlines. Might be headed to Moscow tonight, I just have really no idea. 20 hour days are totally normal. Just my take, but if you have seniority where you are now, you will probably take a large hit on lifetstyle/sked and pay for quite a while. Good luck!

UCLAbruins
11-16-2010, 01:00 PM
Hey Guys/Girls,

I'm looking to get out of the Part 121 world and into corporate flying. Do any of you have any good advice on how to go about it. Please try to keep this thread on topic if you don't mind.

Currently I have about 7500 hours total time, 5000 turbine, 3400 PIC turbine and a couple of type ratings (just not on corporate jets) and am sitting in the pool for a major airline so it's not that I don't have the time requirements for just about any job it's more of I've been in the 121 world for 8 yrs now and have had my fill of it. I want something more involved and more challenging than what this job offers.

Thanks for any imput or advice.

(Boiler makes a good point)

Ashcroft, If you're thinking long-range bizjet, that is going to be tough to get.. Global, G-V and Large Falcon operators want a type rating, hours in type and int'l experience, but you never know in this industry... An acquantinance of mine left Jetblue after 6 years for a Falcon 900EX job. He wanted to see the world, he went to Moscow last week

As far as medium and/or short-range bizjets, you'd eventually land a job if you keep on trying. Patience is a virtue

Executive Jet Management (part of Netjets) has hired guys without a type.

good luck

ashcroft
11-16-2010, 02:06 PM
Thanks guys. All of what has been said was pretty much what I was expecting. Guess I'll be making a few trips out to the local fbo's and start getting my name out. If anybody has any more helpful info on the subject please post up.

NowCorporate
11-16-2010, 04:36 PM
(Boiler makes a good point)

Ashcroft, If you're thinking long-range bizjet, that is going to be tough to get.. Global, G-V and Large Falcon operators want a type rating, hours in type and int'l experience,

Most departments I am familiar with do not care about you having a type rating.....but yes they want some experience and often want Intl PIC experience...and no - Canada and the islands don't count. lol.

We are looking to add a Falcon pilot soon, and could care less if the person is rated.

Niner
11-23-2010, 10:18 AM
We are looking to add a Falcon pilot soon, and could care less if the person is rated.

Just curious what part of the country are you looking in?

USMCFLYR
11-23-2010, 10:44 AM
Most departments I am familiar with do not care about you having a type rating.....but yes they want some experience and often want Intl PIC experience...and no - Canada and the islands don't count. lol.

We are looking to add a Falcon pilot soon, and could care less if the person is rated.

OH NowCorporate! NOW?! ;)

USMCFLYR

The dude
11-23-2010, 01:11 PM
From an ex-airline guy who was able to escape 121 and get a good corporate job, good luck. If you can find a good gig you will be much happier. Just try to meet a lot of people and put your name out there. Make sure everyone understands you're willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. A lot of airline guys have the attitude of not wanting to load bags, get ice, papers, etc.... much more to corporate flying than flying the airplane especially on overseas trips.

7Xdriver
11-24-2010, 02:05 PM
Most departments I am familiar with do not care about you having a type rating......

Well....not so much. If someone fits the profile and has a type rating, why would someone consider anyone else??? You save a LOT on initial training costs. To say managers don't care about such a leg-up is not what I have experienced.

I work for a Fortune 50 company and we have been searching for some time for someone who has a type, is local and is in the 30-40ish range (for future retirement considerations). If you add in the more important factor....will this person fit into our corporate culture....so far does not exist.

I think what you, NowCorp.... are saying is that at some point the those who hire in the Corporate sector will rethink what the profile is based on what is available . This is where we are at.

Currently, we are considering hiring someone who we can grow as our own. Someone who is a bit "wet under the ears" but talented and fits our profile.

If we could get this person with a type (in our types)....they are a shoe-in :)

Just sayin'

ashcroft
11-24-2010, 02:13 PM
Thanks for the advice Dude. I went out to the local fbo to see if they need anybody to work the ramp, fuel planes, or whatever so that I can start getting my name out there. That is the best route I can come up with for now.

BoilerUP
11-24-2010, 02:55 PM
Of course a company would prefer to hire pilots who are already typed on their aircraft.

...but only a cheap operator (or department manager) flying multi-million dollar aircraft would overlook an otherwise qualified, well-fitting candidate simply because they don't have a type rating.

UCLAbruins
11-24-2010, 06:43 PM
Of course a company would prefer to hire pilots who are already typed on their pilots.

...but only a cheap operator (or department manager) flying multi-million dollar aircraft would overlook an otherwise qualified, well-fitting candidate simply because they don't have a type rating.

yes sir, very very true. We've all been victims of that at one point or another, or at least most of us.

UCLAbruins
11-24-2010, 06:54 PM
Most departments I am familiar with do not care about you having a type rating.....but yes they want some experience and often want Intl PIC experience...and no - Canada and the islands don't count. lol.

We are looking to add a Falcon pilot soon, and could care less if the person is rated.

Its been a loooong time since i've seen a G-V, Global or large Falcon job posting that didn't require a type rating. And forget about the 300 hours in type, now it seems they want 500.

NowCorporate
11-24-2010, 07:18 PM
Well....not so much. If someone fits the profile and has a type rating, why would someone consider anyone else??? You save a LOT on initial training costs. To say managers don't care about such a leg-up is not what I have experienced.

I work for a Fortune 50 company and we have been searching for some time for someone who has a type, is local and is in the 30-40ish range (for future retirement considerations). If you add in the more important factor....will this person fit into our corporate culture....so far does not exist.

I think what you, NowCorp.... are saying is that at some point the those who hire in the Corporate sector will rethink what the profile is based on what is available . This is where we are at.

Currently, we are considering hiring someone who we can grow as our own. Someone who is a bit "wet under the ears" but talented and fits our profile.

If we could get this person with a type (in our types)....they are a shoe-in :)

Just sayin'


Well....I kinda THINK we are saying the same thing?

:confused:

We will pass on a DA-7X contractor for a full time job, regardless of his type and 500hrs in the airplane because, well...why is he a contractor? does nobody want to hire him? why?

Same goes for many experienced guys rated in GV/GLEX/900/7X etc. Not that this can apply across the board these days - but why are they unemployed? Why were they the ones chosen during the cutbacks? Been there and participated in the decision process...and please, no matter what they tell you, you aren't usually eligible for re-hire. lol. Its called cleaning house.

Anyhow, my experience with this is mostly in a major metro area. The qualified/experienced guys who were known as good guys didn't spend long looking for work even at the lows in the market - typed or not people wanted them. Being local helps a lot. Others (the house cleaning part) took a lot longer. One can guess as to why.

Maybe I have been lucky. The few places I worked so far have been far more concerned with getting the right person as a fit as opposed to saving 40K on an initial.

And I agree, finding the right person is a very, very hard process. Having participated in a lot of hiring, the simple fact is that you dont know what you have for at least a year...and thats what scares me most about hiring into our very small department.

Have a good Thanksgiving!

:)

NowCorporate
11-24-2010, 07:24 PM
Its been a loooong time since i've seen a G-V, Global or large Falcon job posting that didn't require a type rating. And forget about the 300 hours in type, now it seems they want 500.


I have never seen a good GV/Glex/large Falcon job ever really posted at all.....unless it was the HR fluff ad after it was filled internally.

The dude
11-25-2010, 11:10 AM
I have never seen a good GV/Glex/large Falcon job ever really posted at all.....unless it was the HR fluff ad after it was filled internally.

That's a fact. Any job in those types of AC posted on some website looking to hire strangers should be looked at suspiciously.

UCLAbruins
11-25-2010, 01:51 PM
not many good jobs left.

as far as the corporate world goes it seems Executive Jet Management is still doing some hiring. They posted Global Express and Challenger 300 job openings, both in Southern Cal. And 2 G-V openings at Teterhole. EJM does want a type

The problem with EJM is that you're gonna have to move if/when you're airplane goes away. But if you're in Southern or Northenr Cal, NYC, Chicago or Florida probably wouldn't worry too much about it

cobber
11-25-2010, 04:22 PM
Well....not so much. If someone fits the profile and has a type rating, why would someone consider anyone else??? You save a LOT on initial training costs. To say managers don't care about such a leg-up is not what I have experienced.

I work for a Fortune 50 company and we have been searching for some time for someone who has a type, is local and is in the 30-40ish range (for future retirement considerations). If you add in the more important factor....will this person fit into our corporate culture....so far does not exist.

I think what you, NowCorp.... are saying is that at some point the those who hire in the Corporate sector will rethink what the profile is based on what is available . This is where we are at.

Currently, we are considering hiring someone who we can grow as our own. Someone who is a bit "wet under the ears" but talented and fits our profile.

If we could get this person with a type (in our types)....they are a shoe-in :)

Just sayin'

All the talk about a type being required is a little skewed. There are a lot of operators who are not that concerned about the cost of a type as long as they (as you said) have the right person for the job. The type is a minimal cost in the long run that can be offset by a salary decrease for the first 6-12 months. Which I would imagine the the untyped out of work pilot candidate would gladly accept in return for a type and a great flying job

A Gulfstream type through Simulfight is around 45-50k and if you negotiate with them that will normally include a recurrent that by itself would cost 20k. So in that example the company is really only coming out of pocket 25-30k. Split the difference with the new hire and the company paid 15k for the new guy plus paid him less his first year. This number drops even more if its a 135 gig and the captains need to go to reccurent every 6 months instead of every 12. If a company is ****ing and moaning about the cost of a type then they probably shouldnt be operating an airplane because in the grand scheme of things with fuel, maint, payroll and crew training expenses costing what they do - typing the "right person" is a minimal expense and can be easily managed

With the right approach...

For the right person of course...

I too - am just sayin :)

AKASHA
11-25-2010, 04:36 PM
All the talk about a type being required is a little skewed. There are a lot of operators who are not that concerned about the cost of a type as long as they (as you said) have the right person for the job. The type is a minimal cost in the long run that can be offset by a salary decrease for the first 6-12 months. Which I would imagine the the untyped out of work pilot candidate would gladly accept in return for a type and a great flying job

A Gulfstream type through Simulfight is around 45-50k and if you negotiate with them that will normally include a recurrent that by itself would cost 20k. So in that example the company is really only coming out of pocket 25-30k. Split the difference with the new hire and the company paid 15k for the new guy plus paid him less his first year. This number drops even more if its a 135 gig and the captains need to go to reccurent every 6 months instead of every 12. If a company is ****ing and moaning about the cost of a type then they probably shouldnt be operating an airplane because in the grand scheme of things with fuel, maint, payroll and crew training expenses costing what they do - typing the "right person" is a minimal expense and can be easily managed

With the right approach...

For the right person of course...

I too - am just sayin :)

I don't think the cost of the type-rating is the issue. I think the operator would like the pilot to have some meaningful experience in type.

cobber
11-25-2010, 05:51 PM
I don't think the cost of the type-rating is the issue. I think the operator would like the pilot to have some meaningful experience in type.

I definitely understand that, especially from the insurance side if it. You just drastically narrow your available candidates when only looking at typed guys. The international experience seems to be a sticking point as well...How are you supposed to get international experience if no one will hire you without it? How can you get a the type rating when you cant get a job without it?

The heavy jets in particular are difficult - They've only built 183 G550s for example, so its not like theres thousands of typed G550 pilots in the states - out of a job - with the ability to relocate. So you have relatively few people to choose from.

Not trying to play devils advocate but it would be nice to see these flight departments drop the type requirement and give more people a chance. The odds are that if you are a chief pilot your total time and time in type(s) will allow you to designate a copilot of your choosing so long as they ultimately posses an ATP license and the type. I suppose it all comes down to the willingness and desire to train a new hire on a new aircraft.

ashcroft
11-25-2010, 06:15 PM
I agree with you on that one. It seems crazy that a pilot can have thousands and thousands of hours, many of those pic jet time and yet minus a type in that particular jet you can't even get looked at. I understand insurance and experience but you would think that the previous flight time would count.

BoilerUP
11-25-2010, 06:23 PM
Having a type rating and/or time in type isn't necessary for getting an otherwise qualified pilot on your insurance if your agent is actually earning their commission from your business.

...and if they're not, then you should take your business to someone who will.

RJSAviator76
11-25-2010, 11:51 PM
Type and time in type are some of the biggest obstacles you will run into.

From what I've noticed, much of the corporate hiring patterns are based on what's going on in the airlines. For example, when the airlines are hiring in full swing, fewer applicants are looking into corporate and most of the concentration is on the major airlines hiring. Therefore, it may be easier to break into corporate during airline hiring upswing, and quite possibly, it may be easier to get hired without a type rating.

When the airlines are furloughing, then you have every single furloughee looking into corporate as well. Sadly, after 9/11 and the recent recessionary furlough, many furloughed airline pilots screwed the pooch for many of us by getting hired at corporate operators, getting that expensive type rating, only to say - "Screw it... I don't like this non-union, non-airline crap.." and bailing, leaving the employer eating the cost of rating and without a pilot.

That would explain why many employers now require type and time in type... right or wrong, it is the world we live in. It is not an insurmountable obstacle, but it is a rather large obstacle. As BoilerUP mentioned, network, network, and network some more.

7Xdriver
11-26-2010, 07:25 AM
Well....I kinda THINK we are saying the same thing?

:confused:

We will pass on a DA-7X contractor for a full time job, regardless of his type and 500hrs in the airplane because, well...why is he a contractor? does nobody want to hire him? why?

Same goes for many experienced guys rated in GV/GLEX/900/7X etc. Not that this can apply across the board these days - but why are they unemployed? Why were they the ones chosen during the cutbacks? Been there and participated in the decision process...and please, no matter what they tell you, you aren't usually eligible for re-hire. lol. Its called cleaning house.

Anyhow, my experience with this is mostly in a major metro area. The qualified/experienced guys who were known as good guys didn't spend long looking for work even at the lows in the market - typed or not people wanted them. Being local helps a lot. Others (the house cleaning part) took a lot longer. One can guess as to why.

Maybe I have been lucky. The few places I worked so far have been far more concerned with getting the right person as a fit as opposed to saving 40K on an initial.

And I agree, finding the right person is a very, very hard process. Having participated in a lot of hiring, the simple fact is that you dont know what you have for at least a year...and thats what scares me most about hiring into our very small department.

Have a good Thanksgiving!

:)


Agreed! Happy Holidays!

bcrosier
11-26-2010, 08:04 AM
When the airlines are furloughing, then you have every single furloughee looking into corporate as well. Sadly, after 9/11 and the recent recessionary furlough, many furloughed airline pilots screwed the pooch for many of us by getting hired at corporate operators, getting that expensive type rating, only to say - "Screw it... I don't like this non-union, non-airline crap.." and bailing, leaving the employer eating the cost of rating and without a pilot.

That's not new to post 9-11, it's been the scenario for years - but you are correct it's why many corporate departments won't consider airline pilots. When I was in the corporate world, experience and type rating in the equipment were a plus, but we were much more interested in hiring the correct person than saving money on training. You saved money by hiring someone who would stick around so you weren't re-hiring and retraining six months or a year later. Airline pilots are NOTORIOUS for doing this in corporate aviation - hence the aversion to wasting time and money on them.

USMCFLYR
11-26-2010, 08:16 AM
bcrosier -

When you were involved in hiring / training for a corporate flight department, what was your experience with military pilots wanting to come into the corporate side of aviation?

Did you find that they were looking for a stop-gap measure prior to getting on with an airline? Most military pilots obviously come out of the military without a type rating and many won't have the total time that you often see posted for such positions (even the heavy guys and most likely the fighter/attack guys) unless they spent quite a bit of time in the training commands or got a tour or two flying C-21, UC-35, or some other aircraft with the 89th or similiar squadron in the other services (USN/USMC VR squadrons).

I ask this because I was always looking for the 'big' corporate job when I got out of the military (or gov't job) and having to have 5,000 total time or type ratings for instance was a big obstacle for me. Obvisously the networking was key as has been mentioned here and in other posts a million times, especially relating to corporate flying.

USMCFLYR

bcrosier
11-26-2010, 09:49 AM
Honestly, I don't remember looking at anyone directly out of the military, which sounds sort of odd, but we were a small operation, and not located near any military bases. That said we did hire one ex-military guy who worked out very well (he's now flying a G-550). He had been at a regional, and worked outside of aviation for a while prior to coming to us.

Again, I think the underlying theme is we tried to look for someone who fit in and wanted to be in our operation, regardless of where they came from. My thought is that military pilots would be like any other group - a wide variation between individuals as to what their ultimate goals are. Some would be looking to build time, some looking for a place to stay. Our goal was to find the people who wanted to stay a while.

I've never been in a large department operating bigger equipment, but my impression is that those departments aren't typically looking for someone without some history in the corporate community - again the whole networking thing. The type of flying you did in the military could be a feather in your cap - someone who did flying similar to corporate might be considered. The key being, we want someone who understands what being a corporate pilot is all about, and flying the airplane is only a small part of that.

cobber
11-26-2010, 10:00 AM
That's not new to post 9-11, it's been the scenario for years - but you are correct it's why many corporate departments won't consider airline pilots. When I was in the corporate world, experience and type rating in the equipment were a plus, but we were much more interested in hiring the correct person than saving money on training. You saved money by hiring someone who would stick around so you weren't re-hiring and retraining six months or a year later. Airline pilots are NOTORIOUS for doing this in corporate aviation - hence the aversion to wasting time and money on them.


I second that. Most flight departments wont look at airline guys unless they have a copy of their letter of resignation and release of their seniority number. Ive actually seen adds on the job boards that say (and I think this is a little over the top) "Airline pilots need not apply".

USMCFLYR
11-26-2010, 10:04 AM
Honestly, I don't remember looking at anyone directly out of the military, which sounds sort of odd, but we were a small operation, and not located near any military bases. That said we did hire one ex-military guy who worked out very well (he's now flying a G-550). He had been at a regional, and worked outside of aviation for a while prior to coming to us.

Again, I think the underlying theme is we tried to look for someone who fit in and wanted to be in our operation, regardless of where they came from. My thought is that military pilots would be like any other group - a wide variation between individuals as to what their ultimate goals are. Some would be looking to build time, some looking for a place to stay. Our goal was to find the people who wanted to stay a while.

I've never been in a large department operating bigger equipment, but my impression is that those departments aren't typically looking for someone without some history in the corporate community - again the whole networking thing. The type of flying you did in the military could be a feather in your cap - someone who did flying similar to corporate might be considered. The key being, we want someone who understands what being a corporate pilot is all about, and flying the airplane is only a small part of that.
I've have to say that this might be dependent on the community from which they come - I'm not sure since I only have experience in one community. I can say with much certainty that in my experience, I was just about the ONLY person who had his eye on some sort of corporate / government flying job after the military. Only in the last 5 years or so did I finally see other peers/seniors become interested in the corporate / fractional models or the gov't CBP jobs for instance.

During the mid-90s and early 2000 timeframe, not one of my peers that I know of went anywhere other than P121 flying and most gave me the 'oh young naive one' look when I would say that I was interested in anything other than P121 flying.

I do know that a few went on to corporate careers. I know one with Home Depot, two others with Gulfstream out of Savannah, eventually two went to NJA (both furloughed now) and one directly to NJI (probably one of the last direct hires. He had come off his final tour flying the Commandant's Gulfstream around). I have been in contact with a few other former military types who have a P91 Gulfstream job and a BBJ with Boeing Corp; point being I know they are out there - - but I agree that it isn't a plethera and with contacts being so important it seems to be an especially hard segment to break into.

USMCFLYR

mtbthis
11-26-2010, 03:31 PM
In regards to type ratings, how does that work? Companies may hire you if you don't have a type rating but how do most people go about getting them? Paying for it themselves? And then how do they build the hours? Seems like a catch 22...

Crossroads123
11-26-2010, 04:51 PM
This is my first post on this site. I recently resigned from an FO position at a 121 regional. I was there for three years. I have just over 3000 hours. Long term I just couldn't see how pursuing an airline career would ever really give me the quality of life I really want. Rather than sit around and complain I decided to reach for some other goals. Im planning on continuing my education, and I fly in a very part time capacity for a company.
Im just wondering if any of you corporate guise can offer me any advice. I would love to find the right corporate job and keep flying. Having done some corporate flying in the past I know its not all roses. I also know its super competitve right now. I have no illusions that I'll walk right into my dream job. I would like to start down this road though and get my foot in the door. Is there any other advice beyond networking. Should I go pay to get my ATP? How do I be the guy they are looking for?

cobber
11-26-2010, 04:52 PM
In regards to type ratings, how does that work? Companies may hire you if you don't have a type rating but how do most people go about getting them? Paying for it themselves? And then how do they build the hours? Seems like a catch 22...


It is. Thats the problem.

BoilerUP
11-26-2010, 04:53 PM
Its not impossible, but really difficult to be seriously considered for 99% of corporate jobs without an ATP - especially in tight times.

That said, I was hired at my current employer back in late 2007 without an ATP, without any type ratings, and as a regional jet FO - but I was very well connected which served to only get me the interview, not the job.

cobber
11-26-2010, 05:11 PM
This is my first post on this site. I recently resigned from an FO position at a 121 regional. I was there for three years. I have just over 3000 hours. Long term I just couldn't see how pursuing an airline career would ever really give me the quality of life I really want. Rather than sit around and complain I decided to reach for some other goals. Im planning on continuing my education, and I fly in a very part time capacity for a company.
Im just wondering if any of you corporate guise can offer me any advice. I would love to find the right corporate job and keep flying. Having done some corporate flying in the past I know its not all roses. I also know its super competitve right now. I have no illusions that I'll walk right into my dream job. I would like to start down this road though and get my foot in the door. Is there any other advice beyond networking. Should I go pay to get my ATP? How do I be the guy they are looking for?

Wow I feel like I am reading my own story. No matter what you do now your quality of life will be better :)

Wasnt Expressjet was it?

I think the advice you will find across the board is that the key to corporate is networking. If you live in a larger city you will probably have more options than if you lived in saaaaaay Brownsville, TX. You can hover around FBOs but they generally cant give you any info or contact names to the resident flight departments because of privacy issues. Your best bet is to head to the airport in business casual or higher and start knocking on doors with a resume in your hands. Don't leave without the chief pilots business card and then email or call them periodically to let them know you are still interested. Its tough though, most of the jobs are not advertised and the people that get the interviews are the ones that are persistent. I suppose persistent is a relative word and theres a fine line between persistent and annoying but I dont know if thats a call once a month (which is what I did) or every 6 months.

As unbelievable as it might sound corporate can be more reactive than airlines when it comes to hiring. A department might not need people for several years and then all of a sudden they needed someone 2 weeks ago. When you lose someone on a private plane theres no reserves to fill the gap which leaves you with contractors. That gets very expensive if you are operating a larger aircraft that flies frequently. Just getting out and talking to people is the best you can do, they will start to remember your face etc. One more thing I might add is that because your resume has 3 years of airline flying on it I would stress right away that you have no interest in flying for the airlines anymore. If you read the threads its a pretty common theme that airline pilots are not highly sought after in the 91 sector.

cobber
11-26-2010, 05:12 PM
Its not impossible, but really difficult to be seriously considered for 99% of corporate jobs without an ATP - especially in tight times.

That said, I was hired at my current employer back in late 2007 without an ATP, without any type ratings, and as a regional jet FO - but I was very well connected which served to only get me the interview, not the job.


Same here...

UCLAbruins
11-26-2010, 06:47 PM
This is my first post on this site. I recently resigned from an FO position at a 121 regional. I was there for three years. I have just over 3000 hours. Long term I just couldn't see how pursuing an airline career would ever really give me the quality of life I really want. Rather than sit around and complain I decided to reach for some other goals. Im planning on continuing my education, and I fly in a very part time capacity for a company.
Im just wondering if any of you corporate guise can offer me any advice. I would love to find the right corporate job and keep flying. Having done some corporate flying in the past I know its not all roses. I also know its super competitve right now. I have no illusions that I'll walk right into my dream job. I would like to start down this road though and get my foot in the door. Is there any other advice beyond networking. Should I go pay to get my ATP? How do I be the guy they are looking for?

WOW that's my story... Flew for a regional (4 years), I was about 10 slots from the captain upgrade, but just couldn't take the regional airline life anymore. I enrolled at Syracuse University for a masters program, and seriously considered throwing in the towel on aviation when Airtran and NJA called. Got both jobs, but decided to go with Netjets... As for the Masters degree, pulled the plugged on that as soon as I started basic indoc at NJA.

I did have an ATP and about 4000 hours at the time

Crossroads123
11-27-2010, 11:49 AM
Thanks for the comments! I actually left SkyWest. Its good to hear from others who have already taken the same steps I have, and share my sentiment. We'll see what happens. For now I'll pursue an MBA and look for more opportunities. It looks like there may be some movement in the industry in the next few years. Maybe some corporate guise will get suckered into going the airline route opening up corporate opportunities.

fisherpilot
11-28-2010, 06:23 AM
I left the regional world for a corporate/charter job. I have really enjoyed 91 flying but I have had too many friends working for what most would consider great corp gigs only to get laid off due to this economy.

I have had my fair share of scares and am tired of having to worry where my next job will be. SO..... I am going to try to go back to the airlines. A legacy carrier though. IF you can get on with company that can't efficiently do business without corporate aircraft then I see some stability with those kind of jobs.

Just my opinion....Good luck

pilotmiketx
12-19-2010, 11:46 AM
I skipped the first 40 posts, but if it hasn't already been said, don't do it.

7Xdriver
12-19-2010, 01:41 PM
I left the regional world for a corporate/charter job. I have really enjoyed 91 flying but I have had too many friends working for what most would consider great corp gigs only to get laid off due to this economy.

I have had my fair share of scares and am tired of having to worry where my next job will be. SO..... I am going to try to go back to the airlines. A legacy carrier though. IF you can get on with company that can't efficiently do business without corporate aircraft then I see some stability with those kind of jobs.

Just my opinion....Good luck

Fisher,

I'm not sure you are trading for any more security in airlines than you corporate, but I sincerely wish you the best.

Kevin

Floyd94
12-19-2010, 06:08 PM
I skipped the first 40 posts, but if it hasn't already been said, don't do it.


I haven't read all the post either... but I'd say do it. Best move, QOL/pay I've ever experienced.

Climbto450
12-22-2010, 09:26 AM
Hey Guys/Girls,

I'm looking to get out of the Part 121 world and into corporate flying. Do any of you have any good advice on how to go about it. Please try to keep this thread on topic if you don't mind.

Currently I have about 7500 hours total time, 5000 turbine, 3400 PIC turbine and a couple of type ratings (just not on corporate jets) and am sitting in the pool for a major airline so it's not that I don't have the time requirements for just about any job it's more of I've been in the 121 world for 8 yrs now and have had my fill of it. I want something more involved and more challenging than what this job offers.

Thanks for any imput or advice.
My recomendation is don't, stay in 121. Corporate is to unpredictable one day you make 100k+ then you are out of work. This industry has some good jobs but they are few and far between. Unless it is with an established fortune 500 company it isn't worth leaving. You also have to rememeber that corporate jobs come and go. NBAA states that the average corporate job lasts 3 1/2 years, then you get to go look for another one. In order to always be employed you have only a few metropolitan areas that you can live in LA, NY, South Florida, and parts of Texas, every other area may have a job for you now but in a couple of years when you get laid off it may be hard to find another one in the same city. I left 121 for corporate back in 99, it was a mistake. I just saw the money and jumped ship (BEX/AE) I am trying to get back, but to a legacy/major carrier (Delta,JB). I realize that 121 can be boring but at least you don't have to live in an expensive metropolitan area and get stabed in the back by the guys you fly with. I am not a union fan but it does one thing well (protect pilots from pilots) corporate is a "dog eat dog" industry compared to the 121 world. Good luck with your decision!!

Dpilot
12-22-2010, 12:17 PM
My recomendation is don't, stay in 121. Corporate is to unpredictable one day you make 100k+ then you are out of work. This industry has some good jobs but they are few and far between. Unless it is with an established fortune 500 company it isn't worth leaving. You also have to rememeber that corporate jobs come and go. NBAA states that the average corporate job lasts 3 1/2 years, then you get to go look for another one. In order to always be employed you have only a few metropolitan areas that you can live in LA, NY, South Florida, and parts of Texas, every other area may have a job for you now but in a couple of years when you get laid off it may be hard to find another one in the same city. I left 121 for corporate back in 99, it was a mistake. I just saw the money and jumped ship (BEX/AE) I am trying to get back, but to a legacy/major carrier (Delta,JB). I realize that 121 can be boring but at least you don't have to live in an expensive metropolitan area and get stabed in the back by the guys you fly with. I am not a union fan but it does one thing well (protect pilots from pilots) corporate is a "dog eat dog" industry compared to the 121 world. Good luck with your decision!!

Very well said! Stay in 121. Good luck.

UCLAbruins
12-25-2010, 04:42 AM
My recomendation is don't, stay in 121. Corporate is to unpredictable one day you make 100k+ then you are out of work. This industry has some good jobs but they are few and far between. Unless it is with an established fortune 500 company it isn't worth leaving. You also have to rememeber that corporate jobs come and go. NBAA states that the average corporate job lasts 3 1/2 years, then you get to go look for another one. In order to always be employed you have only a few metropolitan areas that you can live in LA, NY, South Florida, and parts of Texas, every other area may have a job for you now but in a couple of years when you get laid off it may be hard to find another one in the same city. I left 121 for corporate back in 99, it was a mistake. I just saw the money and jumped ship (BEX/AE) I am trying to get back, but to a legacy/major carrier (Delta,JB). I realize that 121 can be boring but at least you don't have to live in an expensive metropolitan area and get stabed in the back by the guys you fly with. I am not a union fan but it does one thing well (protect pilots from pilots) corporate is a "dog eat dog" industry compared to the 121 world. Good luck with your decision!!

This is a great post.... you make a very good point...corporate flying might work out very nice for you, or in most cases it might lead to what you described.

My take, at present, if I'm at any legacy airline, I'd definetly stay. If I'm at Jetblue, Airtran, or Spirit, I'd probably play it safe and stay, but it'd depend on the job... Southwest Airlines is a great company, tremendous potential, doesn't get any better than that, but its not the type of flying I want to do, that's all.

Its a different story for guys at the regionals, their QOL sucks, their pay is disgusting low, and once you hit 1000-1500 turbine PIC, you're really not gaining any more valuable experience.... Once you hit that 1000 PIC, flying LGA-ALB-LGA-SYR-LGA-BUF day after day doesn't do a whole lot for your resume....

As for being forced to reside wherever the job is, the airlines open and close bases whenever they want, commuting to work is no picnic, flights are full and crash pads are expensive... As my flight instructor once said, "people who get comfortable are the people that get stuck at crappy jobs"...I'm not saying take any job that is tossed your way, but sucess in life involves risks.. we're all different.

corporate flying worked out very nice for me (so far), otherwise I'm sure I'd be singing a different tune...

Climbto450
12-25-2010, 08:11 PM
This is a great post.... you make a very good point...corporate flying might work out very nice for you, or in most cases it might lead to what you described.

My take, at present, if I'm at any legacy airline, I'd definetly stay. If I'm at Jetblue, Airtran, or Spirit, I'd probably play it safe and stay, but it'd depend on the job... Southwest Airlines is a great company, tremendous potential, doesn't get any better than that, but its not the type of flying I want to do, that's all.

Its a different story for guys at the regionals, their QOL sucks, their pay is disgusting low, and once you hit 1000-1500 turbine PIC, you're really not gaining any more valuable experience.... Once you hit that 1000 PIC, flying LGA-ALB-LGA-SYR-LGA-BUF day after day doesn't do a whole lot for your resume....

As for being forced to reside wherever the job is, the airlines open and close bases whenever they want, commuting to work is no picnic, flights are full and crash pads are expensive... As my flight instructor once said, "people who get comfortable are the people that get stuck at crappy jobs"...I'm not saying take any job that is tossed your way, but sucess in life involves risks.. we're all different.

corporate flying worked out very nice for me (so far), otherwise I'm sure I'd be singing a different tune...
Well said. I haven't been at the regionals since 99 so I haven't seen the changes that have occured to the regional guys. However, I think we are about to have a record setting couple of hiring years starting late next year. In my experience majors like military and regional guys over corporate guys (although I know plenty of guys that have gone from corporate to majors). I have interviewed at United, Northwest, Southwest and TWA, I only got one offer (United Feb 2008) but between the 65 rule and the sharp economic downturn I never set foot on property. The reason I tell this story is that in all four of my major airline interviewing experience I only had one other corporate guy with me during any of those interview days. Most of the guys were regional guys or at the southwest interview military guys.

emb145captain
12-29-2010, 12:47 AM
My recomendation is don't, stay in 121. Corporate is to unpredictable one day you make 100k+ then you are out of work. This industry has some good jobs but they are few and far between. Unless it is with an established fortune 500 company it isn't worth leaving. You also have to rememeber that corporate jobs come and go. NBAA states that the average corporate job lasts 3 1/2 years, then you get to go look for another one. In order to always be employed you have only a few metropolitan areas that you can live in LA, NY, South Florida, and parts of Texas, every other area may have a job for you now but in a couple of years when you get laid off it may be hard to find another one in the same city. I left 121 for corporate back in 99, it was a mistake. I just saw the money and jumped ship (BEX/AE) I am trying to get back, but to a legacy/major carrier (Delta,JB). I realize that 121 can be boring but at least you don't have to live in an expensive metropolitan area and get stabed in the back by the guys you fly with. I am not a union fan but it does one thing well (protect pilots from pilots) corporate is a "dog eat dog" industry compared to the 121 world. Good luck with your decision!!

While I agree with parts of your statement, I disagree with the "established fortune 500 companies" part. The owner of the plane I fly is a CEO of a very large private company not on the 500, and is personally wealthy. Even if in some strange set of circumstances his company (which is thriving in this economy) went under, he would need the plane for his family. He is in the market for a new plane as we speak. I find it hard to believe there are not more individuals like him out there.

There are some great 91 jobs out there. I am glad I left 121: Uninspiring, repetitive schedules, and boring, depressed, and ****ed-off crews.

Yes, there are uncertainties with any market, but the airlines have not exactly been the safe haven for job security lately, if ever.

Whatever you choose, good luck and fly safely!

NowCorporate
12-29-2010, 07:03 AM
You can discount one's corporate knowledge when they preach that "Fortune 500" departments are the only way to go....

Many are very disfunctional, like the airlines. Many pay less than they should, and many are run by the loser who happens to want to sit in the office and micromanage pilots all day.

A good, small, non-management company part 91 can be a fantastic job.

par8head
12-29-2010, 07:54 AM
You can discount one's corporate knowledge when they preach that "Fortune 500" departments are the only way to go....

Many are very disfunctional, like the airlines. Many pay less than they should, and many are run by the loser who happens to want to sit in the office and micromanage pilots all day.

A good, small, non-management company part 91 can be a fantastic job.

I love mine!

forgot to bid
12-29-2010, 11:37 AM
I did 4.5 years at the regionals before I finally was able to hold Captain, did another year and left for a small corporate job. That fell apart and I was unemployed for six months before walking into another job posted on the internet. I was hired because the two Part 91 pilots quit not long after delivery (wanted more money and no Part 135) and a) I was typed as the job was an Embraer Legacy and I became the Chief Pilot on it and b) I put a package together rather than a resume.

I really loathed the airline life after five plus years at my regional. But I was also a commuter. After 2+ years gone from the airlines guess where I ended up? Delta and I am so glad I applied and so thankful I got hired as I never saw a corporate job with this QOL but this time mind you I'm not a commuter.

In the corporate world I will say this. I think one of the best jobs I saw in corporate was Bellsouth, it might still be a good job as AT&T but it's no longer where I lived. A lot of the corporate I saw was a two man operation for a private owner under Part 91 in what amounted to a deadend job where you flew almost exclusively on weekends and holidays and you were on a short leash. Saw one owner sell his BE350 simply because the pilots were unavailable one weekend. Also, the word 'divorce' meant unemployment, saw that too. And don't ask for time off in advance, you have too much off as it is looking backwards.

I also saw a lot of Part 91/135 "charter managed" jobs, wouldn't prefer that either unless I was in control of the trip approvals because if the charter company has it's way that airplane would never be home.

When it came to work ethic you seriously do have to enjoy more than just the flying. You have to want to do books, manage the maintenance, clean planes and so on. Unfortunately, and this is absolutely a swipe at those who make the same comment I just made, there are a lot of straight corporate pilots who won't lift a finger while at the same time lambasting airline pilots for not willing to put that extra effort in. It was pure hypocrisy and when it came time to hire my replacement we really struggled to find a pilot who'd take on the work load and the part 91 pilot that was hired failed miserable at it. The owner would've been better off with some of the younger ex-Part 121 guys willing to take on the job. BTW, our deal was we owned the building/hangar and it was our own tug, own fuel farm, own aircraft, own 'accountant', no mechanic, Part 91, Part 135, no assitance and part car/document storage manager and btw, don't screw anything up.

Right now I work 8-10 days a month and make more than I did as a corporate chief pilot and my pay was pretty good there. When I flew the 767 I worked 6 days a month except for May-August. All that to say, depends on the job and who you're working for.

I'd say a good Navajo, King Air or Citation level job for a company (not an individual) used for day trips is preferable to me over a privately owned big jet. In the airlines you'll see guys stay 20-30 years on narrowbody aircraft and only dabble in the international stuff at the end because seniority/QOL to them trumps the size of the jet. I think after having a big plane to manage I'd agree that that carries over to corporate.

If I could give one single piece of advice to anyone in aviation... make as many friends as possible and even when the guy is a total jackass, be professional. Networking gets you jobs, good networking gives you those jobs that don't require types. Sadly, a lot of owners won't throw down the $10-20K to train someone so that's where the types come in.

If you work for a contract company abide by their contract or expect to pay them back and you better never ever not tell your employer about the contract or you could end up out of your new job and your old one. Heard several stories about that when the employer got a bill from the contract company because they unknowningly hired their contract pilot who was still on contract.

forgot to bid
12-29-2010, 11:50 AM
also make sure your email has your name amd isn't something like nexttopgunmaverick@aol.com or surfingGVcaptain@netzero.net.

And in your cover letter dont insult the reader knowingly or unknowingly. Loved a letter I got from a guy who said he didn't have as much time as an airline pilot because airline pilots simply build their time in the runup pad waiting to takeoff or in holding patterns and he built it one flight at a time. I tossed that one.

So dont insult corporate, airline or military or anyone for that matter and take each person you meet one person at a time. just a fwiw.

Ziggy
12-29-2010, 06:02 PM
Forgot to Bid: Could you expound on the " package vs resume"? Just interested in other ideas.

7Xdriver
12-29-2010, 06:44 PM
You can discount one's corporate knowledge when they preach that "Fortune 500" departments are the only way to go....

Many are very disfunctional, like the airlines. Many pay less than they should, and many are run by the loser who happens to want to sit in the office and micromanage pilots all day.

A good, small, non-management company part 91 can be a fantastic job.

What he said! Corp, you give sage advice for your young years :)

forgot to bid
12-29-2010, 07:47 PM
Forgot to Bid: Could you expound on the " package vs resume"? Just interested in other ideas.

I put a portfolio together and stuffed it in the mailbox. I got a call that they found it. I was a nobody to them so it was my best shot of putting a face to a resume.

When I interviewed it was sitting on the owners desk and we went through it page by page believe it or not.

As with a lot of folks looking in the corporate world I didn't have a type in a common Part 91 aircraft so when I saw this job's aircraft (I was typed in) and location I went all out. I didn't want to have just another cover letter and resume but at the same time I didn't want to violate the #1 rule of either by having something that was not concise, professional looking and 1 page in length. So basically what I did was make an appendix to the cover letter and resume but with pictures and color :D.

I don't have it anymore so I don't remember the outline but I think it was basically the same structure and rules as any cover letter template- me, this job and what I can do for you. It was absolutely tailored to this specific job and employer btw.

When it came to me I believe it was in chronological order but only pertinent to the job stuff such as part 121 experience and 135 management experience. When I talked about my flying background as it related to his plane it was important not to just talk about the several thousand hours in type but also to talk about how I was trained, where I flew and what kind of conditions I flew in.

All positive and unassuming and goal oriented because I wanted him to know what I could do for him and the philosophy I would employ if offered the job (work hard and communicate well). Really it wasn't but maybe 7 or so pages with ample white space but I said what I wanted to say and combed it over and over. I'm far more creative than detailed oriented but people want to hire detail oriented employees so it took me a long time to write short.

I used a simple word document. Pictures did include me but trust me, I tried to keep those at a minimum, as in only on the front page, because I am nothing to behold. To emphasize I work hard and have a strong focus on communication I included (via a PDF printer and the copy and paste function) samples of the multitude of things I had created in my 135 time.

Take it or leave it but I was desperate and tired of being overlooked.

Ziggy
12-29-2010, 09:16 PM
Forgot to Bid: Thanks! Although I've been fortunate to still have a good job through these trying times. I'm always looking for great tips to improve my resume and ways to present them and myself.

Climbto450
12-29-2010, 10:29 PM
While I agree with parts of your statement, I disagree with the "established fortune 500 companies" part. The owner of the plane I fly is a CEO of a very large private company not on the 500, and is personally wealthy. Even if in some strange set of circumstances his company (which is thriving in this economy) went under, he would need the plane for his family. He is in the market for a new plane as we speak. I find it hard to believe there are not more individuals like him out there.

There are some great 91 jobs out there. I am glad I left 121: Uninspiring, repetitive schedules, and boring, depressed, and ****ed-off crews.

Yes, there are uncertainties with any market, but the airlines have not exactly been the safe haven for job security lately, if ever.

Whatever you choose, good luck and fly safely!
I have seen situations similar to yours turn into unemployment over and over again. 20 years in corporate and I have seen TAJ Mahals of corporate aviation turn into unemployment for all. The point is corporate is uncertain and you are only as good as your last landing (which I have heard of good pilots getting let go for that as well) airline pilots make a couple of rough landing and o well, a corporate guy does the same thing and guess who who gets to make a trip to the unemployment line. Corporate is unpredictable!! don't fool your sell if you think other wise. Pilots mean very little to owners, we can be replaced (in most private owners minds) tomorrow. At least being furloughed usually means usually you eventually get to come back. I am trying to warn to look before you leap out of the airlines. Good luck!!

Climbto450
12-29-2010, 10:33 PM
What he said! Corp, you give sage advice for your young years :)
thats a good one!! Know I have heard it all.

Climbto450
12-29-2010, 10:45 PM
You can discount one's corporate knowledge when they preach that "Fortune 500" departments are the only way to go....

Many are very disfunctional, like the airlines. Many pay less than they should, and many are run by the loser who happens to want to sit in the office and micromanage pilots all day.

A good, small, non-management company part 91 can be a fantastic job.
Talk to you in a few years when you are looking for your next job. Read NBAA or do you not know what that is "now corporate" expert. 3.5 years is the average job in corporate according to the people who track corporate pilot statistics (NBAA). And fortune 500 isn't the only way to go but having worked 121, 135 and pure 91 my opinion is that I wouldn't leave good seniority at a Major airline for a 3.5 year corporate job. If you are just know corporate you wouldn't may not know what NBAA is. Please look it up before you discount 20 year second generation corporate pilot's opionion. And although there are the occasional "losers" micromanging a few of these fortune 500 departments most of the managers have 20 plus years experience and various levels of management education/training and most importantly don't care about being on the road anymore. Just remember my favorite quote tht all line pilots should understand "You don't know what you don't know", so try not to be so quick to judge until you have sat in that "losers" seat. Good Luck!!

BoilerUP
12-30-2010, 03:56 AM
I'm pretty sure NowCorporate could get another high-paying corporate job in less than 72 hours if he had to...and he's got enough BTDT t-shirts in flight departments and equipment of every size to have an objective (if not occasionally blunt) perspective on things.

Any owner who would fire a pilot for a "rough" landing is a pompous d-bag who I wouldn't want to work for anyway - and regardless of how big the airplane or how big the paychecks, it doesn't take long for jobs like those to be well-known as "crappy gigs".

NowCorporate
12-30-2010, 07:22 AM
Talk to you in a few years when you are looking for your next job. Read NBAA or do you not know what that is "now corporate" expert. 3.5 years is the average job in corporate according to the people who track corporate pilot statistics (NBAA). And fortune 500 isn't the only way to go but having worked 121, 135 and pure 91 my opinion is that I wouldn't leave good seniority at a Major airline for a 3.5 year corporate job. If you are just know corporate you wouldn't may not know what NBAA is. Please look it up before you discount 20 year second generation corporate pilot's opionion. And although there are the occasional "losers" micromanging a few of these fortune 500 departments most of the managers have 20 plus years experience and various levels of management education/training and most importantly don't care about being on the road anymore. Just remember my favorite quote tht all line pilots should understand "You don't know what you don't know", so try not to be so quick to judge until you have sat in that "losers" seat. Good Luck!!


I never doubt I could be unemployed in a second - like anyone else in any other business - not just aviation.

Its not something I dwell on, worry about, or jump ship over....and lucky for me I have never been unemployed. I dont kid myself into thinking thats all because of me. I do credit being in a busy corporate area, having good friends, and having decent experience. You?

All my airline friends have been out of work and underemployed FAR more often than me.

Do what works for you, nobody really cares. I like corporate because my ratings and experience are portable. I can move, switch jobs, take my skills and experience with me. I have never had a desire to work for the same company/airline for 40 years anyhow. Thats just not everyones idea of success. My point was that the idea that the greatest corporate jobs are Fortune XX outfits is not always true - in fact far from it. Some are very good, some are not. Like anything.

FWIW I have never seen that "your one landing away from getting fired" mentality - even at the lowest end of charter management/corporate flying.....and I have sat in that "seat" thanks...very briefly and knew it was not for me....."No thanks" to running a big department and managing pilots - again, its not everyones goal. IMO the best role is the highest paid line pilot in the operation - more often than not he/she has said NO to pushing paper full time.

Good Luck.

NowCorporate
12-30-2010, 07:27 AM
What he said! Corp, you give sage advice for your young years :)

LOL, I am feeling pretty old these days!!!

I retain that "young guy" status only because I work in a department that resembles a nursing home.

:D

Climbto450
12-30-2010, 09:28 AM
I never doubt I could be unemployed in a second - like anyone else in any other business - not just aviation.

Its not something I dwell on, worry about, or jump ship over....and lucky for me I have never been unemployed. I dont kid myself into thinking thats all because of me. I do credit being in a busy corporate area, having good friends, and having decent experience. You?

All my airline friends have been out of work and underemployed FAR more often than me.

Do what works for you, nobody really cares. I like corporate because my ratings and experience are portable. I can move, switch jobs, take my skills and experience with me. I have never had a desire to work for the same company/airline for 40 years anyhow. Thats just not everyones idea of success. My point was that the idea that the greatest corporate jobs are Fortune XX outfits is not always true - in fact far from it. Some are very good, some are not. Like anything.

FWIW I have never seen that "your one landing away from getting fired" mentality - even at the lowest end of charter management/corporate flying.....and I have sat in that "seat" thanks...very briefly and knew it was not for me....."No thanks" to running a big department and managing pilots - again, its not everyones goal. IMO the best role is the highest paid line pilot in the operation - more often than not he/she has said NO to pushing paper full time.

Good Luck.
In recent years most of my good corporate friends have been going to the airlines Delta, CA and JB. Everyone of them say they wouldn't comeback for anything, mostly for the reasons I described earlier. I still know some good guys in corporate but most the guys I know aren't anything to write home about. I plan to get to the majors in the next couple of years and not look back.
In regards to your "mobile ratings" I have 4 types but unless I go to school every three years on a type I would still have to go to the equivalent of a full initial, so yes you are correct that the type are mobile but only to a certain degree.

And the the people I know that have been laid off for rough landings where not at the low end of the spectrum they actually where at the top of the spectrum making great money, but their aircraft owner fiqured for the money he was paying them he should have a silky smooth landing every time. The majors provide a certain level of job security that corporate just dosen't.

USMCFLYR
12-30-2010, 11:10 AM
The majors provide a certain level of job security that corporate just dosen't.
Now there is something that I'm not sure I've ever seen written on APC before! :o

It sounds like you and NowCorporate have had two different experiences in the corporate world. Imagine that! :)

Thanks to you both for sharing your experiences. It is interesting to see the diffeent viewpoints. I have to admit that when I was looking to go corporate, I thought that the stability of a flight department would be higher if hired by a "top" (Fortune 500) company; of course this was before the meltdown of the likes of the big three (auto makers). I also thought that my chances (though it seems like all of corporate aviation in network intensive) would be better hired on with a larger flight department than a smaller, more closely knit, more tightly controlled group. For this reason I was targeting the larger corporations that I was coming across with some contacts and the fractionals - before each of them for the most part started furloughing.

USMCFLYR

NowCorporate
12-30-2010, 12:13 PM
The 121's of the world will be hiring and guys flying corporate will leave, for the guaranteed schedule. Most of my friends complain of the lack of schedule (especially if they are married). Also as safe as you think you are, the airplanes are never permanent as solid as the company you fly for may be (IBM).



Why would you say IBM?

NowCorporate
12-30-2010, 12:24 PM
Like a wise person once told me, you can make yourself miserable anywhere you are. So just stay positive and you have half of the battle one.

This is very true. Some people just have difficulty in any arena they choose (airline, corp etc) and are constantly searching for something better that doesn't exist.

At the end of the day its just a job....a very small part of your life.

AKASHA
12-30-2010, 12:59 PM
I couldn't agree with that more.

captainprop
01-02-2011, 05:37 AM
Rated or non-rated Challenger 604 First Officer.

USA, Pacific Northwest

- ATP Multi-Engine Land rating
- Meet the requirements of CFR 61.55
- Hold a FAA 1st Class Medical Certificate
- Possess a FAA English Speaking endorsement
- Hold a Valid Passport
- Minimum 3000 hrs total time fixed wing
- Minimum 250 hrs multi-engine jet aircraft
- Logged at least 500 hrs as a pilot (PIC or SIC) during the previous 24 months

pilot2hire@gmail.com

Good luck and Happy New Year!

CP

forgot to bid
01-02-2011, 01:29 PM
The majors provide a certain level of job security that corporate just dosen't.

there is a lot of truth to this and imho it's because of the following:

1) Airliners, the actual aircraft, are the source of income at major airlines and that means you are a part of the process of making money. That corporation, the airline, doesn't exist without planes flying. Compare that to corporate jets who if used right are mostly money savers which means it's still an expense.

2) When an airline is going downhill you know from a million miles away. Especially the legacy carriers and those things don't die. I swear from 2001-2005 there was an article every day in the worthless USA Today about how UAL was going under and it's still here. USAir is still here. Too much assets and creditors to allow an airline to go under evidently. Compare that to hearing the word 'divorce' from one of the boss' friends.

3) If a merger happens you might get screwed but you still get to be a part of the new company. If furloughed you still have a number. I compare that to AT&T and BellSouth, seemed as if there was no security. There may have been some parachutes but BellSouth was a tremendous operation and it was sliced up and then moved to SAT and it's mission changed. May still be a great job but you weren't guaranteed to be a part of that merger because from what I understood there is no such thing as a 'number'. They bought pilots off and then within a short amount of time they hired off the street and may never have called previously employed pilots- and might not have been allowed to per AT&T HR rules. Not sure. That's what I best remember talking to one of them.

What would be nice is running your own ship (corporate job) flying a great jet or prop for a great company that values the aircraft and uses it for all of the right reasons and you have a contract that says if ever the plane is sold you get a golden parachute... and the plane only flies between Monday-Friday and rarely overnights. The job that came nearest to that was a University I saw that flew Citations (King Air's prior to that). It was all mostly day trips and a lot of it was sports related throughout the fall and winter and a smattering of flights in the spring and summer. You believed in your organization, you could be completely in charge and the airplane was vital and whole ownership was the most cost effective means of ownership because of the location of the University... which will never die. The pay and the overall bureaucracy, however, was the trade off for that job's high QOL.

I'd be careful and make sure I chose a major wisely. You can't just go to any airline. I think in the years to come with the belated age 65 retirements you'll see several airlines hire with gang busters with the opportunity to move quickly up the seniority list to higher QOL seniority and paying jets. AMR really comes to mind despite the number on furlough. Possibly Delta as well although that might not really happen until 2013-2015 although rumors are 500-700 pilots in 2011. And if you apply, update your resume often (like every trip) and make an effort to go to a conference. SWA not so much and not because it's not an excellent company and high paying job but there are a lot of young Captains and the pending AAI merger and possible fleet changes that might, as SWA pilots say, make it not as much fun as it once was. But to each their own and you have to determine which one fits your wants and needs the best and what might not be ideal for most may be perfect for you.

At least you'll have choices in bases and planes, variety and relatively strong job security as a whole. In the airlines people say "bid what you want and want what you bid" as in pursue what you want and don't try to out think the system and if you don't have to commute, don't.

FTB
RJ 121 to 135 to 91/135 to living the good life at a Legacy 121 but still having an affinity to CE525s.

QuietSpike
01-02-2011, 02:14 PM
there is a lot of truth to this and imho it's because of the following:

1) Airliners, the actual aircraft, are the source of income at major airlines and that means you are a part of the process of making money. That corporation, the airline, doesn't exist without planes flying. Compare that to corporate jets who if used right are mostly money savers which means it's still an expense.

2) When an airline is going downhill you know from a million miles away. Especially the legacy carriers and those things don't die. I swear from 2001-2005 there was an article every day in the worthless USA Today about how UAL was going under and it's still here. USAir is still here. Too much assets and creditors to allow an airline to go under evidently. Compare that to hearing the word 'divorce' from one of the boss' friends.

3) If a merger happens you might get screwed but you still get to be a part of the new company. If furloughed you still have a number. I compare that to AT&T and BellSouth, seemed as if there was no security. There may have been some parachutes but BellSouth was a tremendous operation and it was sliced up and then moved to SAT and it's mission changed. May still be a great job but you weren't guaranteed to be a part of that merger because from what I understood there is no such thing as a 'number'. They bought pilots off and then within a short amount of time they hired off the street and may never have called previously employed pilots- and might not have been allowed to per AT&T HR rules. Not sure. That's what I best remember talking to one of them.

What would be nice is running your own ship (corporate job) flying a great jet or prop for a great company that values the aircraft and uses it for all of the right reasons and you have a contract that says if ever the plane is sold you get a golden parachute... and the plane only flies between Monday-Friday and rarely overnights. The job that came nearest to that was a University I saw that flew Citations (King Air's prior to that). It was all mostly day trips and a lot of it was sports related throughout the fall and winter and a smattering of flights in the spring and summer. You believed in your organization, you could be completely in charge and the airplane was vital and whole ownership was the most cost effective means of ownership because of the location of the University... which will never die. The pay and the overall bureaucracy, however, was the trade off for that job's high QOL.

I'd be careful and make sure I chose a major wisely. You can't just go to any airline. I think in the years to come with the belated age 65 retirements you'll see several airlines hire with gang busters with the opportunity to move quickly up the seniority list to higher QOL seniority and paying jets. AMR really comes to mind despite the number on furlough. Possibly Delta as well although that might not really happen until 2013-2015 although rumors are 500-700 pilots in 2011. And if you apply, update your resume often (like every trip) and make an effort to go to a conference. SWA not so much and not because it's not an excellent company and high paying job but there are a lot of young Captains and the pending AAI merger and possible fleet changes that might, as SWA pilots say, make it not as much fun as it once was. But to each their own and you have to determine which one fits your wants and needs the best and what might not be ideal for most may be perfect for you.

At least you'll have choices in bases and planes, variety and relatively strong job security as a whole. In the airlines people say "bid what you want and want what you bid" as in pursue what you want and don't try to out think the system and if you don't have to commute, don't.

FTB
RJ 121 to 135 to 91/135 to living the good life at a Legacy 121 but still having an affinity to CE525s.


FWIW- I only agree to an extent, and voice my opinion just to share the other side of the coin.


First-- my time at a regional carrier and then at a legacy carrier were both great-- but comparing it to my job now and my previous job is like comparing a ferrari to a honda.

I was on reserve for most of my career-- when I started at the regional, it was 18 months to upgrade, and 2.5 yrs to Delta--- and at 15 months into my time, 9/11 happened... we all know about that. So I took the first upgrade I could, and sat reserve for the majority of my time there (by choice, yes, but if I wanted out of there, I needed turbine PIC time, so not really).

So then I get hired at a major airline... wooo hoo.. I made it. The promise of upgrade was only a few years away. The starting pay was less than half of what I was making, but that's ok... I'll make it up quickly. Then furloughs, flowbacks, etc... now back as junior as you can be, except now you have a family to worry about... and when you get furloughed from a major, you are not eligible for any lateral transition... Job security with a major/legacy? I don't think so... wasn't US Air furloughed up to 10 or 12 years, something ridiculous like that? Ask the guy who was hired 12 years ago and now out on the street if he felt good about his job "security". Ask any Eastern pilot about their job security! I think the phrase "job security" is not in aviation anymore, no matter where you work!

I can tell you there are FANTASTIC corporate jobs out there. I got laid off in early 2009 from a great job where I averaged 15-18 days off per month, and made a great salary. Then spent a few months unemployed, and then got a job making more money, and averaging 20.5 days off per month (for 2010). The trips I do now are usually one leg somewhere, sit for a couple of days, and one leg home. So we get to enjoy our destinations for a bit. The downside is- yes, I am on call, but we know our schedule for each month- it may modify a bit here and there, but we can look at a calendar month and know what to expect. I don't mind cooking the books. I started my own management company, and now do this for multiple aircraft. I just don't mind it (I guess I am the "micromanager desk loser":rolleyes:).

I guess the point I am trying to make is, there is no "right" answer or "better path". They both have risks, they both have reward. I miss flying a Boeing product!! :cool: But I do not miss the schedule, the time away, the low pay (compared to now).

I do not think there is any "security" to anything nowadays... In fact, when someone young wants to get into aviation, I always tell them to make sure you love it and are passionate about it, because it is no fairy tale anymore. :(

Climbto450
01-02-2011, 05:42 PM
FWIW- I only agree to an extent, and voice my opinion just to share the other side of the coin.


First-- my time at a regional carrier and then at a legacy carrier were both great-- but comparing it to my job now and my previous job is like comparing a ferrari to a honda.

I was on reserve for most of my career-- when I started at the regional, it was 18 months to upgrade, and 2.5 yrs to Delta--- and at 15 months into my time, 9/11 happened... we all know about that. So I took the first upgrade I could, and sat reserve for the majority of my time there (by choice, yes, but if I wanted out of there, I needed turbine PIC time, so not really).

So then I get hired at a major airline... wooo hoo.. I made it. The promise of upgrade was only a few years away. The starting pay was less than half of what I was making, but that's ok... I'll make it up quickly. Then furloughs, flowbacks, etc... now back as junior as you can be, except now you have a family to worry about... and when you get furloughed from a major, you are not eligible for any lateral transition... Job security with a major/legacy? I don't think so... wasn't US Air furloughed up to 10 or 12 years, something ridiculous like that? Ask the guy who was hired 12 years ago and now out on the street if he felt good about his job "security". Ask any Eastern pilot about their job security! I think the phrase "job security" is not in aviation anymore, no matter where you work!

I can tell you there are FANTASTIC corporate jobs out there. I got laid off in early 2009 from a great job where I averaged 15-18 days off per month, and made a great salary. Then spent a few months unemployed, and then got a job making more money, and averaging 20.5 days off per month (for 2010). The trips I do now are usually one leg somewhere, sit for a couple of days, and one leg home. So we get to enjoy our destinations for a bit. The downside is- yes, I am on call, but we know our schedule for each month- it may modify a bit here and there, but we can look at a calendar month and know what to expect. I don't mind cooking the books. I started my own management company, and now do this for multiple aircraft. I just don't mind it (I guess I am the "micromanager desk loser":rolleyes:).

I guess the point I am trying to make is, there is no "right" answer or "better path". They both have risks, they both have reward. I miss flying a Boeing product!! :cool: But I do not miss the schedule, the time away, the low pay (compared to now).

I do not think there is any "security" to anything nowadays... In fact, when someone young wants to get into aviation, I always tell them to make sure you love it and are passionate about it, because it is no fairy tale anymore. :(
You both made valid points. The choice to leave an airline and go corporate should not be taken lightly. Either way stay positive and good things should happen to you. (In a perfect world)

forgot to bid
01-02-2011, 07:56 PM
I started my own management company, and now do this for multiple aircraft. I just don't mind it (I guess I am the "micromanager desk loser":rolleyes:).

Smart.

BTW, the one thing I wish I had done was a reserve styled points system for assigning trips when I did at a time have multiple pilots. You get X points for each hour flown, more Y points for overnights and Z points for whatever else but at the end of the day if you fly you get points and the next trip goes to the pilot with the least points. It'd require a shoe horn of course but I wish I had offered that to the pilots I had at one point managed.

I guess the point I am trying to make is, there is no "right" answer or "better path". They both have risks, they both have reward. I miss flying a Boeing product!! :cool: But I do not miss the schedule, the time away, the low pay (compared to now).

I do not think there is any "security" to anything nowadays... In fact, when someone young wants to get into aviation, I always tell them to make sure you love it and are passionate about it, because it is no fairy tale anymore.

No argument there. TWA, Eastern and Pan Am were the pinnacle of the airline industry at one point and time but all of them are gone. I don't know if Delta Air Lines will be here in 35 years when I retire either and of course who knows if you'll have a medical in 5 years, 10, 25, 35, etc? I guess in this world having a heads up is really about all the job security you get.

Two pieces of advice I got from someone who I believe was at one time Delta's youngest L1011 Captains and that is "someone has always done it younger, faster and better than you can so just enjoy yourself" and you're nothing special so if she'll break up with him to go out with you she'll break up with you to go out with him and if she'll go home with you on the first night then she'll go home with anybody... skip that last one... it's not as relevant to this topic as I thought. :D

How about just be mindful of what can be wrong, don't be emotional about job choices, to each his own, listen to others and lastly give, save and live off the rest so that you give yourself the margin to take advantage of opportunities or better handle the worst.

NowCorporate
01-02-2011, 08:30 PM
Rated or non-rated Challenger 604 First Officer.

USA, Pacific Northwest

- ATP Multi-Engine Land rating
- Meet the requirements of CFR 61.55
- Hold a FAA 1st Class Medical Certificate
- Possess a FAA English Speaking endorsement
- Hold a Valid Passport
- Minimum 3000 hrs total time fixed wing
- Minimum 250 hrs multi-engine jet aircraft
- Logged at least 500 hrs as a pilot (PIC or SIC) during the previous 24 months

pilot2hire@gmail.com

Good luck and Happy New Year!

CP


Gotta love the ads who cant even say who they are!

captainprop
01-03-2011, 01:52 AM
Yes, but some companies don't want to be seen as recruiting staff for their jets or even less - be seen owning a jet..... I know quite a few companies who do it this way. Once they know you meet their profile they are happy to tell you all about who they are and what they have to offer, fair enough I say.

forgot to bid
01-03-2011, 02:01 AM
I agree, some operators may want the privacy or kewp in mind it may simply be pilots advertising for their replacement prior to their need to be replaced being made official.

NowCorporate
01-03-2011, 04:11 PM
Yes, but some companies don't want to be seen as recruiting staff for their jets or even less - be seen owning a jet..... I know quite a few companies who do it this way. Once they know you meet their profile they are happy to tell you all about who they are and what they have to offer, fair enough I say.

Please...creating a gmail address and advertising on pilot message boards?

What kind of jobs are filled on message boards or pilot job boards with strangers?

Who even has to advertise (aside HR requirements) today?...nevermind create some lame description and a gmail address.

Needing to be cheesy (and sneaky?) is a pretty big red flag IMO. "pilot2hire@gmail.com"...:rolleyes:

And why in the world would a pilot advertise for his own replacement?

:confused:

captainprop
01-12-2011, 10:22 AM
Well, I know people advertising for their own replacement because they wanna move to another type in the company they are in but have been told "We need someone rated to replace you before we can move you". Seen this several times.

captainprop
01-12-2011, 10:24 AM
And by the way - The add is not mine. Found it on a recruitment website.

7Xdriver
01-12-2011, 02:24 PM
And by the way - The add is not mine. Found it on a recruitment website.


Of course this ad is from a recruiter or headhunter. Like like aircraft sales companies who block out the number, they want to protect their commission :)

Scott99
01-18-2011, 03:05 PM
Some good advice for the corporate industry is to focus on control your largest fixed cost, fuel!

If you have some flight planners make sure the Always check contract fuel prices (CAA, UVAir, AvFuel, Mariah, JFI, etc) and call the FBO directly if there isn't any contract fuel listed.

If you don't have any flight planners you can use a fuel management company to do the work. We used Fuel Managers (http://www.fuelmanagers.net/)at my last company, they do all the research and negotiations. Best part about them is there is no management fee, they take a small percentage of the savings they get you, but the price they give you is the price you get.

I've found AirNav, Fltplan, and most every other website else is highly unreliable when it comes to accurate, current information.

Besides, you should call to ask about ramp/facility fees anyway and talking to somebody on the phone is an easy way to start negotiating fuel price & uplift amounts...

samstanton
01-23-2011, 06:53 PM
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I work in 135 and have been wondering if a move to 121 would be a good idea in the next few years. I'm currently employed flying as SIC in a Lear 31 and PIC in a Chieftain.

After 2 years of airlineapps silence I got a call and an email last week inviting me to interview at Colgan (not interested) and ExpressJet.

My question now is should I even interview at a regional or just wait and see what happens in the next few years… It’s a hard choice

cobber
01-23-2011, 07:35 PM
I have enjoyed reading this thread. I work in 135 and have been wondering if a move to 121 would be a good idea in the next few years. I'm currently employed flying as SIC in a Lear 31 and PIC in a Chieftain.

After 2 years of airlineapps silence I got a call and an email last week inviting me to interview at Colgan (not interested) and ExpressJet.

My question now is should I even interview at a regional or just wait and see what happens in the next few yearsÖ Itís a hard choice

Thats a question only you can answer. There are so many factors - time off, pay, schedule, family, your tolerance level for BS etc. Why do you want to go to the airlines?

samstanton
01-23-2011, 08:03 PM
Thats a question only you can answer. There are so many factors - time off, pay, schedule, family, your tolerance level for BS etc. Why do you want to go to the airlines?

What do I want... good question. Iím pretty sure itís the same thing we all want. Schedule I can see 30 days out, good pay, and job security... I completely understand nothing in aviation is guaranteed... Just looking to make sure the odds are on my side. I think 135 is great! But I would like to have a job longer than 3.5 years too...

cobber
01-23-2011, 09:02 PM
What do I want... good question. Iím pretty sure itís the same thing we all want. Schedule I can see 30 days out, good pay, and job security... I completely understand nothing in aviation is guaranteed... Just looking to make sure the odds are on my side. I think 135 is great! But I would like to have a job longer than 3.5 years too...


There are some very good jobs in the 91/135 world to be sure. I was Expressjet for 4 years as an FO and I personally thought it was the worst job ive ever had. I left last year for the job I have now and it tripled my pay to fly half as much. Im sure that some would consider this a rarity but I have many friends that have done the same thing so I know im not a special case, the jobs are out there if you network.

I had never wanted to go to an airline but at the time it was the only way to get turbine time so I sucked it up and went. I commuted because I didnt want to live in Houston, Newark or Cleveland so I lost about 4 extra days off per month on top of having a less than desirable schedule. On average I was gone 17 days a month. Im assuming thats your little one in your avatar picture? You will definitely be spending less time at home working for an airline unless you work for a really bad 135 company. I hear you about knowing the schedule but personally I would rather have a lot of time off and not know my schedule than know my schedule and be away from home for 7 months out of the year in crappy hotels.

This is all just an opinion though and I know there were a lot of guys I flew with that all they want to do till they turn 65 is fly for an airline. Most of them had no clue as to what was available in the 91 or 135 world and didnt really care because they wanted to fly a 777 and they were going to keep going until they did regardless of the cost to their personal life. In the end I think its one of those things you wont know until you try it but by then its too late...

samstanton
01-23-2011, 09:47 PM
Hey Cobber,

Good post again, your perspective is very valuable having worked as an FO at ExpressJet. It would be a reduction in pay and QOL to move to a regional for sure. There is no reason good enough for me to do it right now. Maybe in a few years if the legacy carriers are actually hiring I will reevaluate and attempt to skip the regionals all together. Until then I'll keep enjoying 135.

BoilerUP
01-24-2011, 05:13 AM
If you got an interview, there's no reason IMO to turn it down - it'll be great experience to see "how the other side lives" for future reference and if you do get an offer you can turn it down then.

cobber
01-25-2011, 11:41 AM
Hey Cobber,

Good post again, your perspective is very valuable having worked as an FO at ExpressJet. It would be a reduction in pay and QOL to move to a regional for sure. There is no reason good enough for me to do it right now. Maybe in a few years if the legacy carriers are actually hiring I will reevaluate and attempt to skip the regionals all together. Until then I'll keep enjoying 135.

Personally I say stick to corporate - you'll live longer...

But!

"BoilerUP" does make a good point about doing the interviews. Its good experience if you can get the time off to go do it. Times were different 5 years ago obviously but I interviewed at ExpressJet, SkyWest, Mesa and Pinnacle all within 5 weeks of each other. It was pretty intense but by the time I got to the last interview (ExpressJet) I was on autopilot.

FYI SkyWest was the hardest interview ive done to date. It took all day and had 5 or 6 phases including sim, 2 written exams, a CRM scenario and interviews with 2 different panels. In contrast ExpressJet was the easiest with only 2 interviews. Got offers to all 4 but chose ExpressJet because I would go straight to a jet and they had the fastest upgrade (2 years) of most of the regionals at the time.


Perhaps it goes without saying but be careful not to let your current employer know you're going to doing this. Good luck either way! :)

ImperialxRat
01-26-2011, 08:44 AM
Hey guys,

Well, I've decided to make the jump and give pt 135 a try. I am currently with ExpressJet and just got hired for a BeechJet position. The pt 135 gig is at the airport about 10mins from my house, so I really am looking forward to that quality of life improvement.

My question is later on down the road if I network, network, network, and wanted to find something in a legacy, global, etc,...do those usually require you to live within 2 hours or so of the airport? Or is that completely company specific and too broad to ask?

I am looking forward to flying into FBO's again =)

BoilerUP
01-26-2011, 08:50 AM
My question is later on down the road if I network, network, network, and wanted to find something in a legacy, global, etc,...do those usually require you to live within 2 hours or so of the airport? Or is that completely company specific and too broad to ask?

Yes. Some 91 operators have "standby", a few have something more akin to an airline reserve, and others if you have no flying scheduled then the day is yours. Also it doesn't matter what the size of the airplane is - it could be a G550 or a CJ1 - it depends on the HMFIC of the flight department and/or company to set the tone for requirements.

I'm that HMFIC so I'm expected to answer my phone if the bossman calls at a reasonable hour, but thankfully we know 99% of our trips with 24hr notice and probably 90% with at least one weeks' notice.

I know a couple pilots that drive 3-4 hours to their airplane vs. pack up the family and move...and their employer has a flexible enough schedule (read no pop-up GET HERE RIGHT EFFING NOW trips) to allow that.

Congrats on the new job, enjoy the Beechjet and remember - in a crosswind, you can't lift a wing with a spoiler.:D

ImperialxRat
01-26-2011, 08:57 AM
Congrats on the new job, enjoy the Beechjet and remember - in a crosswind, you can't lift a wing with a spoiler.:D

Yeah the owner made sure to point out that wing to me =) Interesting design.

Thanks for the reply.

cobber
01-26-2011, 09:55 AM
Hey guys,

Well, I've decided to make the jump and give pt 135 a try. I am currently with ExpressJet and just got hired for a BeechJet position. The pt 135 gig is at the airport about 10mins from my house, so I really am looking forward to that quality of life improvement.

My question is later on down the road if I network, network, network, and wanted to find something in a legacy, global, etc,...do those usually require you to live within 2 hours or so of the airport? Or is that completely company specific and too broad to ask?

I am looking forward to flying into FBO's again =)


You are gonna be so much happier....trust me.

Just think how much you're going to miss the 100 degree walk arounds in the beautiful Houston summer or the 2 hour wait to take off in Newark. And how about the disgusting bagel samies available only in the only city that rocks (according to Drew Carey :rolleyes:) Cleveland, Ohio. No my friend those days are gone now but you'll alway have the ballpark...

As far as the a Legacy job goes I wouldnt really bother looking for one unless it fell in your lap. There just not a lot of them being operated in the US, I know because I looked for several years and I finally got a hold of the registration book for US aircraft. There were literally less than 10 at the end of 2009. There are several operators that have the EMB-135 shuttles like Intel in KHIO, Oregon but thats about it.

Which model of the Beechjet (aka Hawker 400?) are you in? Where? The one we have here is being retro'd with the new Williams engines and the Collins Pro Line 21 avionics. Supposedly it will give that plane a 2000 mile range when finished and they wont have to worry about prist anymore....amazing for a Beechjet!

Congrats on the new job man its always exciting to fly a new plane, hopefully they send you to Simuflight in Dallas for training. Its a great facility and they treat you like a customer rather than a number. Plus you'll get to meet some new people to start growing your network. I was told once that "a good pilot is always looking for his next job". Now I took that to mean that your not always gonna jump on the next job thats out there but you definitely need to keep your finger on the pulse of the field you're on because you never know. Where im at in Seattle we have a pilot gathering once a month for beer and apps and its open to everyone on the field. Generally have 15-20 guys show depending on whos in town and everyone gets a chance to know each other - great networking tool even if it does create a little competition

ImperialxRat
01-26-2011, 12:13 PM
It's for the Hawker 400 XP in So Cal. Training is Flight Safety in Wichita.

Yeah I will not miss Houston, Cleveland or Newark. I am based in Chicago right now... great city, but it is cold. I am tired of the cold =(

Good to know about the Legacy jobs... I wasn't actively looking for one, but more so curious about the possibility.

EDIT: I am excited to not have to eat airport food! Seems like everyplace you go the options are Chili's 2 Go, McDonalds, etc etc... just tired of it.

galaxy flyer
01-26-2011, 06:25 PM
Beware of gaining 20 pounds--it's an occupational hazard of expense account living. Training and flying should be more relaxed. Stop worrying about how many hours you fly, it doesn't matter. OTOH, network, the light jets have been killed in recession. You don't bid, you fly what the Boss wants. Get used to living with the same guys, like being married with no benefits.

GF

BeezerJg34
04-05-2011, 03:11 PM
After doing some networking, I may have an opportunity to get into a pt 91 corporate gig for a Fortune 500 company. I am currently flying for an on-demand pt135. For those who have made similar career changes, what can I expect as far as QOL/schedule? I know it varies company to company, but I just want to get a feel for the overall lifestyle. Any thoughts/experiences are helpful.

galaxy flyer
04-05-2011, 03:38 PM
As questions at the interview, EVERY flight department is different. You will probably work about 13-17 days a month on average, with variables. We have 7 "hard off" days per month, 3 weeks vacation after 4 years, up to post trip days for international trips. Ask what hotels they us, do you position overseas business class? What and how are expenses done. Per diem or Actual expenses. Is there a standby policy. How many pilots per plane, are their flight attendants, if it is an international operator on Gulfstream/Global class planes.

Next, ask about a flight operations manual, what it says. Ask about IS-BAO certification, sort of like ISO 9000 for corporate flight ops. If these things are there, good bet it is a first class operation.

Good Luck, GF

BoilerUP
04-05-2011, 05:14 PM
Next, ask about a flight operations manual, what it says. Ask about IS-BAO certification, sort of like ISO 9000 for corporate flight ops. If these things are there, good bet it is a first class operation.

...but don't assume a company isn't a first class operation simply because they haven't bought into the ISBAO nonsense...

galaxy flyer
04-05-2011, 06:09 PM
Well, if they go outside the US, the operation has to have most of the elements of IS-BAO--Ops Manual, SMS Plan, etc. It is not becoming the international standard because it's nonsense.

It certainly could be a first-class operation w/o being IS-BAO, but it does mean they have met some standard and been audited. Yes, I've heard of lots of variation of the quality of the auditors. But, if there is an SMS and a Flight Ops Manual that is complete, abided by and complete, it's way ahead of many.

I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly, too.

GF

NowCorporate
04-05-2011, 08:16 PM
...but don't assume a company isn't a first class operation simply because they haven't bought into the ISBAO nonsense...

THIS.

If we didn't travel much outside the US I wouldn't bother with the ISBAO crap either. Dont believe that "they will impound your aircraft" garbage for a second....pure hype from the clowns selling audits.

Some of the worst departments I know have awesome looking SMS/FOM's - means nothing if the place is run by spineless clowns. The weakest "YES" man in the department willing to do office work and avoid confrontation often gets the Chief Pilot/Director job passed on to him. No, not always, but often enough.

Is ISBAO a good thing to do? sure. It ties together/reviews many of your department policies etc, checks the box in case anyone asks etc...but it says NOTHING about QOL, PAY, etc - the things that matter to me.

I will take a comfy schedule, a well staffed plane, good people, and a big paycheck over a pile of beautiful bull$hit pilot busywork manuals anyday.

Have it all? even better...and somewhat rare!

BeezerJg34
04-06-2011, 08:42 AM
Interesting stuff to hear about IS-BAO, etc but back to my original question...any additional thoughts on what a "typical" QOL/schedule is like for someone coming from pt135 to pt91 corporate? What can someone expect for pay on a challenger 300?

NowCorporate
04-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Interesting stuff to hear about IS-BAO, etc but back to my original question...any additional thoughts on what a "typical" QOL/schedule is like for someone coming from pt135 to pt91 corporate? What can someone expect for pay on a challenger 300?

There is no "typical" in any part of this business. Not sure what you are looking for...

I bet CL300 jobs pay anywhere from 50K-250K...I bet schedules go from 3 days/month to 34 days a month...etc etc.

What do you want to hear? Have you ASKED about pay and schedule at this outfit during the job interview? (BTW its very appropriate to ask) No interview yet? well then why worry about it? All you will lose is the $25 for dry cleaning a suit to get the real answers.

"Typical" corporate job.....thats a good one!

BeezerJg34
04-06-2011, 01:39 PM
What I am looking for is just what people have experienced in their corporate job in relation to QOL or schedule. I havent interviewed just yet so I havent had the chance to ask any of these questions, I'm just looking at getting as much info as I can before I go. Don't worry...I know there is no "typical" corporate job (nothing is that way in on-demand 135 either), but I just wanted to see if I could gain insight through what others have seen in their corporate careers.

BoilerUP
04-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Here's an example:

My department has 2 pilots and two airplanes (one CJ2+, one Cirrus). We operate the jet as a crew, but are typed/insured single pilot and OCCASIONALLY operate SP on a situational basis. We use contract pilots as necessary for pre-scheduled PDOs, sick calls, or both airplanes needing to fly. The Cirrus is the personal airplane of the HMFIC though we do use it for staff travel, and we don't force anybody to use it and its only reliable 8 months of the year due to icing.

We normally end up working 15 fly/RON days each month; add another 3-5 for days in the office or hangar taking care of stuff. We also normally work 14-16 total weekend days per year...which I'm thankful isn't higher (our plane is 90%+ company business). We've worked as many as 12 days in a row, and other times gone 2+ weeks between trips...it really just depends on what the travel needs of company personnel are.

We aren't "on call" on non-flying days though we do get a couple pop-up (<4hr notice) trips per year; we've never had a problem making a trip happen but when we answer we're always asked "Are you in the middle of anything? Can you do a trip to ________ today?"

Principals allow our spouses to come along on trips, space permitting. We don't have our expenses poured over and micromanaged, but we try to be reasonable.

We are allowed personal use of the Cirrus with the permission of the HMFIC; this is unlimited but I try not to take advantage of it and I pay for fuel (though a couple times, he objected to it).

If the plane is going to sit for 3+ days, the HMFIC will give us the option of repo'ing home empty vs. sit on the road...even if it costs more than airlining or us staying put. VERY nice perk for a guy like me with an infant in the household.

Pay is okay for the area & aircraft but could always be better; same for benefits.

All in all, I'm VERY happy.

BeezerJg34
04-06-2011, 03:37 PM
Boiler -Thanks! That's the kind of information that I'm looking for and I appreciate the info!

galaxy flyer
04-06-2011, 05:27 PM
At the opposite end if the scale, we operate 3 Globals and a CL300, 30% domestic, 70% international.

About Pro Pilot average pay; bonus program, 7 HO Days per month; up to 3 days, post-trip off. If you have an additional duty, about 2-3 office days, otherwise off. Little standby, but I've done 3 pop-ups in 6 years. International means INTERNATIONAL--65 countries in my 6 years.

Hiring, but apps closed now.

GF

sddo
04-06-2011, 06:27 PM
Just to throw my two cents in. I am one of the spineless yes men referred to in a previous post. I do the pilot hiring and I do look for time in type and a type rating if required. All pilots are required to have an ATP even if they do not fly an aircraft that requires a type rating. This is to meet professional standards dictated by some of our customers. Pilots that are current in the aircraft we fly are given greater consideration than non current pilots and being we are 135 we look for 135 experience. Airline time under 121 is a red flag that puts applicants to the bottom of the pile. Our experience is they take to long to train, arenít flexible, and once they understand how much there is to do such as: all paper work, clean aircraft, make slot reservations, set up international stuff, get your own hotel and transportation, set up catering, tow aircraft, clean the potty, cater to passengers, constant schedule changes, and the list goes on, they go back to the airlines.

My advice is to get what you can as soon as you can. This may mean part time stuff to show that you are committed to the little airplane stuff, understand it and can handle it.

On another note I know people who have great corporate jobs, job security and love what they are doing.

I know more corporate pilots who hate their schedules (under part 91 there are no required days off), hate their demanding bosses and have little security as the airplane disappears when the profits start taking a hit.

I have found part 135 work rewarding and stable (others will disagree), at least 135 does require scheduled days off (some operators work around this).

Best of luck

galaxy flyer
04-12-2011, 03:25 PM
NowCorporate

Dont believe that "they will impound your aircraft" garbage for a second....pure hype from the clowns selling audits.

Would you like to bet your boss' airplane on that?

GF

NowCorporate
04-12-2011, 06:09 PM
NowCorporate



Would you like to bet your boss' airplane on that?

GF

Yes.....anyday, in fact even the boss agrees.

Whatever - we eventually got an approved/registered SMS, its not hard to do on your own if you have some time, its a good way to review/create good SOPs....I'm not against it, just dont kid yourself with the "impounding" garbage.

Sounds like NBAA Airmail/internet forum clowntalk fueled by SMS "consultants"

galaxy flyer
04-12-2011, 07:41 PM
I've seen US Military planes impounded in Spain and heard of civil planes impounded for tax reasons in Europe. Anything's possible.

GF

NowCorporate
04-13-2011, 04:22 AM
I've seen US Military planes impounded in Spain and heard of civil planes impounded for tax reasons in Europe. Anything's possible.

GF

well OK, pay your taxes?...if one plans on flying EU citizens around its understood you should certainly go through the importation process. We dont so we dont import our planes.

But back to fear mongering...please let us know when an N-registered airplane gets "impounded" anywhere for the lack of an SMS.