Airline Pilot Forums

I've been in aviation nearly 15 years in one form or another, pilot, mechanic, support, scratching my way up from a ramp rat, paying my education through hard work and long hours. All of my degrees and licenses will add up to about $85,000, all paid without loan or debt or help from parents or spouse. I take great pride in my accomplishments, and I know that most could not have followed my path.

I also knew that the intended target, good pay, good hours, was a shrinking one, and my values have changed. I was no longer willing to sacrifice my friends, my loved ones and my passions for a command at a bigger plane and the "possibility" of advancement.

It was clear that my future was not in aviation, especially not as a pilot. The problem was how to leave a life long career without going bankrupt. I had pondered this for 5 years and finally, my decision was made for me. I was fired because of my "attitude". Not because I was unsafe, but because I didn't follow the party line. I could have fought it, but I really didn't want to stay.

Unemployment paid my bills, and the Workforce Investment Act paid for my schooling as a Server Administrator. All my tests passed, new certificates in my pocket off to a new career.

But, I.T. has similar problems as aviation, too many people willing to work long hours, holidays for minimal pay just to gain experience. If I have 5 years experience and an alphabet soup of certificates, I could muster between $10-15/hr. It reminded me of the regional airlines but worse in some ways since the technology changed every 3-5 years. For comparison, I can easily make double that as an administrative assistant walking some CEO's dog. It's still a strange world.

Somehow, I found a way. I've found more than one position requiring my combined skills. My chosen field is still in I.T. but in a niche market where is pay is modest, but acceptable, health care provided, day shift, week days, and all holidays off. All of this on day one. And the best part, I have only one boss.

Will I miss the long hours, massive fatigue, boredom, politics, bad weather, delays, TSA, customs, coach tickets, uniform, endless paperwork, laughably incompetent management, hurry up and wait, and the long list of inconveniences?
No, not even a bit.

When I go to renew my medical, I won't be concerned if I pass. To get on the airport, I will walk through an open gate, and leave when I feel like it. I will be #1 or #2 for take off and I'll even have a tower to talk to, sometimes.

I don't want to go back to where the joy was sucked dry from the dream. Keep the "dream job" trap for the next group of kids rushing to fill the "void" of the next "pilot shortage".

If asked: "why don't you fly professionally"
I can happily respond: "it wasn't for me"
and be absolutely sure.

CE

Good luck...

Unemployment paid my bills, and the Workforce Investment Act paid for my schooling as a Server Administrator. All my tests passed, new certificates in my pocket off to a new career.


You can't adequately train for that job. It takes intuition and mindset. Fortunately, the same sort of skills necessary to be a good (not necessarily a successful) pilot.


But, I.T. has similar problems as aviation, too many people willing to work long hours, holidays for minimal pay just to gain experience. If I have 5 years experience and an alphabet soup of certificates, I could muster between $10-15/hr.


"IT" is not where you want to be. Learn some Unix, bring your "A" game as a systems manager and emergency specialist extraordinaire to an interview, and I'd hire you for a NOC position in a heartbeat. The lower bar on that starts at about $25-$30/hr. After five years or so, if you have a legitimate interest in computers, networking, and systems, you should be able to get a mid-level systems administrator jobs in one of the tech parts of the country, at $75-$85k, assuming there are no major economic shifts (There could be). Five years, again assuming no major economic or market shifts, and you shouldn't have a problem breaking $120k. Very senior sysadmins/architects top out about $150k, but at that level you can also push $110/hr consulting, if you're good.

Don't waste your money on certifications. "THEY" will tell you that you need degrees and certifications, and a steady work history, and to wear a suit and tie to an interview, but "THEY" teach because they can't do; I show up to interviews in a T-shirt and jeans, at most. I've never owned a suit or a tie, and I dropped out of school in the 7th grade. I generally don't hire people with degrees, unless they really knock my socks off. (Hasn't happened yet)

If you spend your time trying to compete with the bottom feeders, you'll end up on the bottom. The key is to make yourself genuinely valuable and get past them quickly.

Does the field have problems? Oh heck yes. Tech is a horrible self-serving industry, full of fail. It's also the source of one heck of a lot of money, but that money spends a lot of time changing hands within tech and then much of it leaves the country.

Management consists predominately of people whose daddy bought them a degree at (Stanford compatible school), so there are plenty of bad decisions that come down from above, which you'll have to fend off.


It reminded me of the regional airlines but worse in some ways since the technology changed every 3-5 years. For comparison, I can easily make double that as an administrative assistant walking some CEO's dog. It's still a strange world.


It's more important to carve a niche for yourself that allows you to learn a system, rather than individual technologies. Systems don't change nearly that frequently, and the stuff under the hood is slow to change as well. New buzzwords float around every five years or so, but they tend to describe things that already existed as if they were new and novel.


Somehow, I found a way. I've found more than one position requiring my combined skills. My chosen field is still in I.T. but in a niche market where is pay is modest, but acceptable, health care provided, day shift, week days, and all holidays off. All of this on day one. And the best part, I have only one boss.


It's more important to be happy than to be rich. The two are not synonymous.

I honestly wish that all the people who don't absolutely have to fly for a living in order to satisfy their souls in a way that nothing else can..... wouldn't. :/

Sometimes when I talk to people, I realize that there are just too many people in for "a job", "an easy job", "a job that isn't real work", and not enough people in because they simply can't imagine doing anything else in life.

Just my $87.42 worth. (I charge by the hour)

~Foxy

Foxy,

You seem to hold the overly romantic and unrealistic views of a hobby pilot. Flying is not a religion. For most of us here it is a job and as such it has some income and lifestyle obligations to fulfill in order to compensate for the hardships and investment that it takes to get there.

After four years of college and surviving flight school I don't think that anyone would say that it is an "easy" job and by the time you have made it to the regionals you have already put a lot of work in for little in return.

People who get into this career to "satisfy their souls" are the reason why we are not paid anything anymore. The airlines have learned that people like you will work for nothing. In a short time the airlines will be filled with aviation martyrs who live alone in studio apartments praying that crew scheduling calls.

The rest of us have lives to live. I got onto profession to make a better living than a mailman. Currently the mailman has a better deal. You go and satisfy your soul. I have a family to raise.

I think it is ironic that you ended your post with a statement that implies that you value your time when clearly you don't.

Skyhigh

Foxy,

You seem to hold the overly romantic and unrealistic views of a hobby pilot. Flying is not a religion. For most of us here it is a job and as such it has some income and lifestyle obligations to fulfill in order to compensate for the hardships and investment that it takes to get there.


Flying is not YOUR religion.

I have always, my entire life, wanted to be a pilot. It's all I ever wanted to do. I worked my ass off to get my pilots license at 17, and then I then ran out of money. My parents had none, and I lived forty miles away from the nearest town. The job I was working as a ranch hand dried up, and I was completely unable to secure student loans for any sort of flight training or college. So I went into computers, having more or less accidentally taught myself that skill.

I want to fly for a living. I don't want to work for the airlines, but I do want to work as a CFI, maybe teach float flying for a while, maybe think about bush flying down the road, maybe... who knows.

If that makes me a hobby pilot in your eyes, then so be it. I don't particularly care. I understand your viewpoint as it pertains to aviation, and I understand your negativity, but I don't care to be typecast by you.

You seem to care more about family and status and propriety than flying. So be it. I will not judge that, but not all of us are that way, regardless of age or social status.


After four years of college and surviving flight school I don't think that anyone would say that it is an "easy" job and by the time you have made it to the regionals you have already put a lot of work in for little in return.


I didn't say it was an easy job. I said that there's a perception that it's an easy job, which apparently attracts many people who are happy to sign on the dotted line.


People who get into this career to "satisfy their souls" are the reason why we are not paid anything anymore. The airlines have learned that people like you will work for nothing. In a short time the airlines will be filled with aviation martyrs who live alone in studio apartments praying that crew scheduling calls.


Take your grievance with the aviation industry out on somebody else.

The reason pilots aren't paid anything anymore is because pilots bend over backwards to keep their jobs and management takes advantage of that. Pilots don't fight back. They could, if they tried, but they're terrified of rocking the boat and getting fired, and getting a bad reputation, and not being able to find a job. Or of 'harming' their company, and thus their livelihood.


The rest of us have lives to live. I got onto profession to make a better living than a mailman. Currently the mailman has a better deal. You go and satisfy your soul. I have a family to raise.


I would submit that YOU are the problem. YOU are seeking a job that pays well, and you don't care what it is. You chose flying...as did many other people, when faced with the exact same problem. The flight schools sold people like you a dream that doesn't exist anymore, and by the time you realized it, you were already in with no escape.

Again, leave flying to those who can do nothing else.


I think it is ironic that you ended your post with a statement that implies that you value your time when clearly you don't.

Skyhigh

Pick someone else to go after. Seriously.

~Fox

Foxy, hope you get to make some money one day flying the way you want to fly. You have a very healthy outlook on the industry and it sounds like you're going about realizing your dream of flying just the right way.

Skyhigh, you are absolutely right that pay is low because there are those that pursue their dreams and are willing to make financial sacrifices to make that happen. But that is something you should have considered when you chose aviation to make money. I was told over and over again prior to gaining any experience (or even any ratings) that if I was doing this for the money I should move onto something else. Choosing aviation as a lifelong career is a bit like betting your retirement on a poker game. You might double up and retire a wealthy dude and you might lose it all. Honestly, if you don't love flying I don't see how you could even stick with this career. I love it and still keep one eye out for any new, more stable career choices that may fall into my lap. I do hope that you are successful and are able to keep at it until 65 and cash out a hefty 401k. The majority opinion seems to be that QOL and pay should be on the up at airlines over the next 10 years.

When I started flying pilots made a lot more money and had a better quality of life. Had I or my classmates known what lied ahead I am sure that we all would have chosen something else.

I love to fly as much as the next guy but I love myself and family more. A profession that demands as much as aviation does has a lot to live up to.

Fly for fun as a hobby. Work to make a living. Aviation costs a fortune to get into and should pay a fortune in return. Imagine if dentists made 30K after all those years in medical school and as interns. No one would do it.

Skyhigh

Flying is not YOUR religion.

I have always, my entire life, wanted to be a pilot. It's all I ever wanted to do. I worked my ass off to get my pilots license at 17, and then I then ran out of money. My parents had none, and I lived forty miles away from the nearest town. The job I was working as a ranch hand dried up, and I was completely unable to secure student loans for any sort of flight training or college. So I went into computers, having more or less accidentally taught myself that skill.

I want to fly for a living. I don't want to work for the airlines, but I do want to work as a CFI, maybe teach float flying for a while, maybe think about bush flying down the road, maybe... who knows.

If that makes me a hobby pilot in your eyes, then so be it. I don't particularly care. I understand your viewpoint as it pertains to aviation, and I understand your negativity, but I don't care to be typecast by you.

You seem to care more about family and status and propriety than flying. So be it. I will not judge that, but not all of us are that way, regardless of age or social status.



I didn't say it was an easy job. I said that there's a perception that it's an easy job, which apparently attracts many people who are happy to sign on the dotted line.



Take your grievance with the aviation industry out on somebody else.

The reason pilots aren't paid anything anymore is because pilots bend over backwards to keep their jobs and management takes advantage of that. Pilots don't fight back. They could, if they tried, but they're terrified of rocking the boat and getting fired, and getting a bad reputation, and not being able to find a job. Or of 'harming' their company, and thus their livelihood.



I would submit that YOU are the problem. YOU are seeking a job that pays well, and you don't care what it is. You chose flying...as did many other people, when faced with the exact same problem. The flight schools sold people like you a dream that doesn't exist anymore, and by the time you realized it, you were already in with no escape.

Again, leave flying to those who can do nothing else.



Pick someone else to go after. Seriously.

~Fox

~Foxy,

Flying has always been a prominent place in my life but until you have to make your entire living at it I do not think you will understand.

It is unfair for you to criticize a person who has put it all on the line for aviation and is disappointed at the results.

Why don't you pick on someone else. Seriously. Flying for a living is not a religion.

Skyhigh

Foxy,

Give it up. Sky won't listen to other viewpoints regarding the profession. He lives in his own "little" world and nothing you say, even if it makes sense, will make a difference. He travels down a one sided slope and he will never arrive at a compromise with you no matter how much sense you make. Good luck in your endeavors.

Foxy,

Give it up. Sky won't listen to other viewpoints regarding the profession. He lives in his own "little" world and nothing you say, even if it makes sense, will make a difference. He travels down a one sided slope and he will never arrive at a compromise with you no matter how much sense you make. Good luck in your endeavors.

Brian,

I listen and read every post. The problem is that you are wrong. :)

Skyhigh

When I started flying pilots made a lot more money and had a better quality of life. Had I or my classmates known what lied ahead I am sure that we all would have chosen something else.

I love to fly as much as the next guy but I love myself and family more. A profession that demands as much as aviation does has a lot to live up to.

Fly for fun as a hobby. Work to make a living. Aviation costs a fortune to get into and should pay a fortune in return. Imagine if dentists made 30K after all those years in medical school and as interns. No one would do it.

Skyhigh

I can't argue with you there. In terms of home and family life, the current pay structure and work rules in aviation hardly make it worth it. And your point about dentists is about to be lived out in the airline world. When the pendulum swings back and the airlines are looking for pilots again it's going to be an issue. Before the economy crashed regionals were already having a hard time finding qualified pilots. This, of course, should eventually work in our favor to improve pay and QOL to draw more interest, and pilots, back into the industry.

I can't argue with you there. In terms of home and family life, the current pay structure and work rules in aviation hardly make it worth it. And your point about dentists is about to be lived out in the airline world. When the pendulum swings back and the airlines are looking for pilots again it's going to be an issue. Before the economy crashed regionals were already having a hard time finding qualified pilots. This, of course, should eventually work in our favor to improve pay and QOL to draw more interest, and pilots, back into the industry.

Bustin,

A pilot shortage might result in improved conditions for pilots. However during the regional boom when companies were having a hard time finding pilots instead of raising wages to attract more people they just lowered minimums.

I expect that if there is a true shortage companies will start their own cadet programs and hire people with zero flight time and pay them nothing over raising wages to draw sidelined pilots with experience.

Skyhigh

Bustin,

A pilot shortage might result in improved conditions for pilots. However during the regional boom when companies were having a hard time finding pilots instead of raising wages to attract more people they just lowered minimums.

I expect that if there is a true shortage companies will start their own cadet programs and hire people with zero flight time and pay them nothing over raising wages to draw sidelined pilots with experience.

Skyhigh

You're right there. The cadet programs will be their only option outside of raising pay once the new minimum hours rule goes into effect, if it ever does. I would imagine unionized pilot groups would have the ability to influence whether or not the company is able to do that. I guess we'll find out.

Flying has always been a prominent place in my life but until you have to make your entire living at it I do not think you will understand.

For the first time in a long time, I agree wholeheartedly with SkyHigh.

Until someone has been a professional aviator long enough for it to "just be a job", they really don't know the entire depth and breadth of how flying applies to their life. Younger and less experienced pilots tend to have the romantic view, and older more experienced pilots tend to have the pragmatic view -- that's just how it is because one has to find their own way in life in order to determine what is important to them. I certainly identify with feelings and beliefs like Foxy is talking about, because I used to be that way, too. But, then I grew up. I saw the world. I did a lot of really cool flying. Finally, I realized that flying is just something you do, and it is not the end-all, be-all of the human experience.

To anyone who hasn't gotten to the point yet where the flying they do to put food on the table and a roof over the head (not the flying done for recreation - that's a different story all together), then you are indeed a lucky person. The vast, vast majority of professional pilots feel that way about their avocation at some point.

I love aviation as much as anyone, and it has been a significant part of my life since I was born. It is not, however, definitive of my personal identity, nor is it anything remotely close to a religion.

You're right there. The cadet programs will be their only option outside of raising pay once the new minimum hours rule goes into effect, if it ever does. I would imagine unionized pilot groups would have the ability to influence whether or not the company is able to do that. I guess we'll find out.

I have never seen unions do anything to protect lower rung pilots. It is all about insuring that captains get theres and everyone else can fight for themselves.

Skyhigh

For the first time in a long time, I agree wholeheartedly with SkyHigh.

Until someone has been a professional aviator long enough for it to "just be a job", they really don't know the entire depth and breadth of how flying applies to their life. Younger and less experienced pilots tend to have the romantic view, and older more experienced pilots tend to have the pragmatic view -- that's just how it is because one has to find their own way in life in order to determine what is important to them. I certainly identify with feelings and beliefs like Foxy is talking about, because I used to be that way, too. But, then I grew up. I saw the world. I did a lot of really cool flying. Finally, I realized that flying is just something you do, and it is not the end-all, be-all of the human experience.

To anyone who hasn't gotten to the point yet where the flying they do to put food on the table and a roof over the head (not the flying done for recreation - that's a different story all together), then you are indeed a lucky person. The vast, vast majority of professional pilots feel that way about their avocation at some point.

I love aviation as much as anyone, and it has been a significant part of my life since I was born. It is not, however, definitive of my personal identity, nor is it anything remotely close to a religion.

Amen Brother. :)

For the first time in a long time, I agree wholeheartedly with SkyHigh.

Until someone has been a professional aviator long enough for it to "just be a job", they really don't know the entire depth and breadth of how flying applies to their life.


People differ. I can guarantee you, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I have no capacity to view aviation as "just a job". I know several professional aviators with whom I speak on a regular basis who share my viewpoint completely. One of them is a bush pilot in Alaska, flying beavers--He has been doing it for many years. Another is a flight instructor who's been doing it for a long while himself. Yet another is a friend of mine who left a tech job to do flight instruction full time, long ago. We are all on exactly the same wavelength. I have friends of mine who work for the airlines, and friends of mine who work for fractionals who do, however, share your viewpoint--so some of it likely depends on the type of flying and how one is treated. Perhaps it's also just the person. None of the people to whom I refer have ever wanted to fly for the airlines. (Well, except the long-time flight instructor, who discovered that he really enjoyed flight instruction)


Younger and less experienced pilots tend to have the romantic view, and older more experienced pilots tend to have the pragmatic view -- that's just how it is because one has to find their own way in life in order to determine what is important to them. I certainly identify with feelings and beliefs like Foxy is talking about, because I used to be that way, too. But, then I grew up. I saw the world. I did a lot of really cool flying. Finally, I realized that flying is just something you do, and it is not the end-all, be-all of the human experience.


I can assure you that I've grown up as much as I ever will. :>
In this day and age, however, it's hard to become an 'experienced' pilot unless one is being paid to do it, or one is independently wealthy; thus you certainly have the advantage of me in experience--All I can guarantee is that I know myself, and I have the experiences of others with similar mindsets to draw on.

For me, it is enough; I cannot speak for others.


To anyone who hasn't gotten to the point yet where the flying they do to put food on the table and a roof over the head (not the flying done for recreation - that's a different story all together), then you are indeed a lucky person. The vast, vast majority of professional pilots feel that way about their avocation at some point.


And some always do, which is the point I'm trying to get at; whether it's nurture or nature.


I love aviation as much as anyone, and it has been a significant part of my life since I was born. It is not, however, definitive of my personal identity, nor is it anything remotely close to a religion.

I am never X. I'm always a pilot who happens to be X.

Definitive of my personal identity. Certainly my religion, or a significant part thereof.

~Fox

I've heard of "dreams", "passions", which really translate to cheap pilots. Those pilots can eat glory and status.

I cannot.

I've also seen "pilot shortages" 3 times in my career. Each time I read that the conditions would get better etc, etc. There is a stack of resumes on each desk 12" thick that need to be address and a few mergers and bankruptcies to be completed before any real hiring starts.

But by all means, pay for your type rides for the sniff of an interview, just like your friend's-mother's-neighbor's-accountant's-pool boy did just last week. Now he's making $215,000 year on a 747 with 1 week on 4 weeks off.

Oh, and I.T. has a truck load of "work from home" (remote) jobs. I don't even need pants! :D

CE

I can guarantee you, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I have no capacity to view aviation as "just a job".

Hah, we'll check back in a decade from now and see what you think.

EVERY "dream" job becomes "just a job" at some point for the people doing it. Rock stars...porn stars...pro athletes....name a job, and eventually there is a point where it is strictly work.

I've heard of "dreams", "passions", which really translate to cheap pilots.


Perhaps not so much as puppy-mill pilots with mountains of debt and the expectation of riches down the road "if they just work hard."

Or perhaps both types are allowing themselves to be screwed over for slave wages and a job with decreasing responsibility, increasing automation, surveillance, hassle and strife.

As long as pilots are at each others' throats, management will continue screwing them all.

Doing a great job so far*.


I've also seen "pilot shortages" 3 times in my career. Each time I read that the conditions would get better etc, etc. There is a stack of resumes on each desk 12" thick that need to be address and a few mergers and bankruptcies to be completed before any real hiring starts.


I do not believe in an 'upcoming pilot shortage'. I don't believe in past pilot shortages. I believe in, as I said before, risk management determining that cheaper, less experienced labor with increasing levels of automation results in acceptable increases in profit/risk ratio.

In the news, the general public always hears about 'greedy pilots' who want 'more money', but they never hear about long commutes, duty days, reduced rest... and as long as pilots are fighting to keep their heads above water by stepping on the shoulders of those beneath them, they're doomed, as a group. This is where the unions could have helped...but entirely failed.

Did you read what the general public had to say about the spirit strike? The management's spin was predictable but effective; union response to management was an 'also ran'.

This isn't a corporate america problem--It's a public america problem. This is an example of the 'unrestricted free market solves all the world's problems' sort of viewpoint in action, there being no such thing as an unrestricted market. If airline management could hire H1Bs, you bet they would, instantly. If they could institute indentured servitude, like China's factories, you'd see it happen instantaneously.

The only way to fix it, in my view, is through serious long-term strategizing... of a sort of which the pilot unions seem incapable. The public must be engaged. More than superficially. The fickle mob must be directed to your side. These are people who feel sorry for, and freely give money to, celebrities who have bad things happen to them. These are the people who step over homeless in the street. These are the people who, sometimes, do both in the same day--and these are the people you need on your side, if you want to ever restore aviation as a career to any sort of prominence.

Management won't ever listen to you unless forced. Why would they? They appear, from this outsider's perspective, to be insulated from any sort of immediate repercussion by A> The provisions of the RLA, B> pilots' need to put food on the table, their loyalty to their company, and their fear of gaining a negative reputation, C> Their insulation from economic failure of the company with gratuitous severance packages and the willingness of corporations to hire failed executives on a whim, and finally D> the general public's antipathy towards those who, in perceived hard economic times, evince any sense of entitlement, or who are perceived to already be well off.


But by all means, pay for your type rides for the sniff of an interview, just like your friend's-mother's-neighbor's-accountant's-pool boy did just last week. Now he's making $215,000 year on a 747 with 1 week on 4 weeks off.


Why do you think there's a 12" stack of resumes on the desk of any hiring manager in aviation?

I do my level best to support you, my friends; I write about, talk with anyone who will listen about, and try my best to get the word out about airline pilot pay, to try and improve public perception. Invariably, when I tell people about pilot pay, the response is shock. Sometimes they respond about their neighbor/friend/landlord who is a united CA making $1,000,000,000/year, and all I can do is disabuse them of the notion that that's common.

The key is that you have to get the message out... otherwise, in the mind of the public whose support you need you will remain 'greedy pilots', who make $60/hr ($125k/year, right?), work four days a month in a jetson-esque cockpit, and are always trying to get more money.


Oh, and I.T. has a truck load of "work from home" (remote) jobs. I don't even need pants! :D

CE

I did once go down to an internet datacenter in San Jose wearing nothing but my pajamas and a flannel robe, and I do work from home more often than not... just like the aforementioned United CA. I've paid my dues in computers... unfortunately, the current aviation industry seems to be all dues.

Working on his CFI,

~Fox
* - I don't mean to offer offense; there's a line from an old song: "When the poor hunt the poor across mountain and moor, the rich man can keep them in chains." It's pertinent.

Foxy~

At this point you need to quit your job completely and try to live off what you can make as a new pilot. Get into the grind. Start selling off your possessions to pay the rent. See for yourself the huge stack of resumes that every aviation company has. Then come back here and tell us that we are crazy.

If you really love aviation as much as you say then tomorrow is a waste unless it is spent in a plane. You have no excuses. Anything less than total commitment would be a disservice to your lifelong passion and ardent position of total aviation love.

The rest of us here have already done that. Now it is your turn.

Skyhigh

Professional aviation is very different from touch and goes in a 172. Oh yea and I too have flown Beavers in the bush for many years. The fun wears off there too.

Foxy~

At this point you need to quit your job completely and try to live off what you can make as a new pilot. Get into the grind. Start selling off your possessions to pay the rent. See for yourself the huge stack of resumes that every aviation company has. Then come back here and tell us that we are crazy.


Think carefully about what you're saying.


If you really love aviation as much as you say then tomorrow is a waste unless it is spent in a plane. You have no excuses. Anything less than total commitment would be a disservice to your lifelong passion and ardent position of total aviation love.


Not if I spend tomorrow in a plane in pursuit of becoming burnt out and bitter, unable to survive. I'm in this for the long haul, and for my kind of flying.


The rest of us here have already done that. Now it is your turn.

Skyhigh

Professional aviation is very different from touch and goes in a 172.


idem.

Oh yea and I too have flown Beavers in the bush for many years. The fun wears off there too.

You do realize that almost every single profession on the planet has people that say the same thing about it, right? ... and that there's always some contingent of people who truly enjoy what they do, even if they do it all their life. There are also people who will never be happy, regardless of what they're doing or how much they make.

Perhaps flying isn't for you?

-Fox

You do realize that almost every single profession on the planet has people that say the same thing about it, right? ... and that there's always some contingent of people who truly enjoy what they do, even if they do it all their life. There are also people who will never be happy, regardless of what they're doing or how much they make.

Perhaps flying isn't for you?

-Fox

~Foxy,

I am an average American who needs to make a living. Flying is for me however poverty and a lifetime of hardship is not. Most can put up with it for a while however eventually everyone has bills to pay and most have a life to fund.

I have already made over two decades of sacrifice as a pilot. If you are not ready to fully commit now then perhaps it is you who is not right for aviation. Perhaps you are trying to sell yourself on the idea.

Pull the trigger. Bet your life on it. Make a decade of sacrifices while your friends drive new cars and buy houses and then you can come back here and lecture the rest of us who have already been there.

Skyhigh

In my original post, my purpose was to show my logical path of making a decision to leave the industry.

Instead of typing pages of anecdotes and events I will leave my calculations for said decision.

Log ALL of your duty time, flying, sitting, time away from home, (in hours) and divide your salary by that time. What is your $/hr. At many times in my career, it was well below minimum wage.

There is also the value of sleeping in my bed every night and the company of my friends and family during every holiday.

There are some that will read my opinion and call me a bad example, weak, unlucky, etc. That's fine.

I stand by my decisions and original post.

CE

Brian,

I listen and read every post. The problem is that you are wrong. :)

Skyhigh
You sir, are the ultimate "buzz kill"! If you only had balance, you would have alot more fans. Rock on Sky.

You sir, are the ultimate "buzz kill"! If you only had balance, you would have alot more fans. Rock on Sky.


brianb,

How do you know how many "fans" (your word) I may or may not have? I appreciate your concern but am quite satisfied with my results. I am not here to collect a following but to save lives.

Many of my most ardent opponents here eventually get what it is that I am writing about and make the conversion. Since you have shown me much interest as of late it suggests that you possibly are struggling with keeping the faith as well. No matter how much you resist eventually the reality will creep in.

When the time comes we will welcome you with open arms. :)

Skyhigh

P.S. I like the term "buzz kill" and think that it is a good description. I would like to use it if you don't mind.

"Money can't buy happiness. Money IS happiness."

Jack Donaghy

( Joke ) :p

Skyhigh

:)brianb,

How do you know how many "fans" (your word) I may or may not have? I appreciate your concern but am quite satisfied with my results. I am not here to collect a following but to save lives.

Many of my most ardent opponents here eventually get what it is that I am writing about and make the conversion. Since you have shown me much interest as of late it suggests that you possibly are struggling with keeping the faith as well. No matter how much you resist eventually the reality will creep in.

When the time comes we will welcome you with open arms. :)

Skyhigh

P.S. I like the term "buzz kill" and think that it is a good description. I would like to use it if you don't mind.
Feel free. Glad I can provide you with some assisstance. While I continue to agree with portions of your rhetoric, I cannot and will not bend to all of your assertions. Again, for your clarity, balance is essential IMO in all things Sky. You have no balance and therefore you lack credibility in all areas. Yes, some of what you push is true but a great portion is just flat wrong. You and I have have a difference of opinion and thats ok. I prefer to look at both sides while you only look at the Dark side of the Force. If you were a "successful" Airline pilot, you might hold a different viewpoint. I await, with unbridled eagerness, your flavorful reply.

:)
Feel free. Glad I can provide you with some assisstance. While I continue to agree with portions of your rhetoric, I cannot and will not bend to all of your assertions. Again, for your clarity, balance is essential IMO in all things Sky. You have no balance and therefore you lack credibility in all areas. Yes, some of what you push is true but a great portion is just flat wrong. You and I have have a difference of opinion and thats ok. I prefer to look at both sides while you only look at the Dark side of the Force. If you were a "successful" Airline pilot, you might hold a different viewpoint. I await, with unbridled eagerness, your flavorful reply.
No need to wait brianb. I have said, nearly word for word, exactly what is bolded above in your most recent post. You should go read the responses to those posts and you can foretell the response.

USMCFLYR

:DNo need to wait brianb. I have said, nearly word for word, exactly what is bolded above in your most recent post. You should go read the responses to those posts and you can foretell the response.

USMCFLYR
The anticipation is killing me! JK. I think Sky needs a little Ying to his Yang in this fight. I will try convince him that there are some great stories/careers in Aviation and hopefully, one day, we can accept him with open arms into the good side of the force. No, i'm not a total geek.

:D
The anticipation is killing me! JK. I think Sky needs a little Ying to his Yang in this fight. I will try convince him that there are some great stories/careers in Aviation and hopefully, one day, we can accept him with open arms into the good side of the force. No, i'm not a total geek.

brianb,

Aviation has changed. When I was a kid pilots lived well. They were respected members of society. In my home town there were several prominent airline pilots who were well known land and business owners. They sent their families to France for the summer and Hawaii in the winter. They owned the biggest houses in town and bought a new car every two years.

Today even the legacy pilots are struggling to maintain middle class. It takes a huge amount of sacrifice and risk to be an airline pilot. The best the average airline pilot can hope for today is to make more than a mailman at some point.

I am sorry I do not see an upside for those who are starting out today. I will not accept my compensation in sunsets and ILS approaches. I have a family to feed and a retirement to fund. Aviation is costly and it needs to pay more. Pilots at all levels need to be paid much more and deserve much more time off so that they can have a life.

As things are today it is not worth it. It costs too much to become trained and educated for too little in return.The career use to be worth something. I don not see an upside and would appreciate your take on it.

From my perspective it seems as though the latest generation of pilots are selling themselves mostly on romance and fantasy. Aviation is my profession. Not a religion, personal quest or even hobby. As such it needs to pay a wage that is worthy of the cost it took to get there and provide stability and benefits.

Skyhigh

brianb,

Aviation has changed. When I was a kid pilots lived well. They were respected members of society. In my home town there were several prominent airline pilots who were well known land and business owners. They sent their families to France for the summer and Hawaii in the winter. They owned the biggest houses in town and bought a new car every two years.

Today even the legacy pilots are struggling to maintain middle class. It takes a huge amount of sacrifice and risk to be an airline pilot. The best the average airline pilot can hope for today is to make more than a mailman at some point.

I am sorry I do not see an upside for those who are starting out today. I will not accept my compensation in sunsets and ILS approaches. I have a family to feed and a retirement to fund. Aviation is costly and it needs to pay more. Pilots at all levels need to be paid much more and deserve much more time off so that they can have a life.

As things are today it is not worth it. It costs too much to become trained and educated for too little in return.The career use to be worth something. I don not see an upside and would appreciate your take on it.

From my perspective it seems as though the latest generation of pilots are selling themselves mostly on romance and fantasy. Aviation is my profession. Not a religion, personal quest or even hobby. As such it needs to pay a wage that is worthy of the cost it took to get there and provide stability and benefits.

Skyhigh
Again Sky, you prove my point over and over again by your standard replys to my posts. You ONLY look at the downside of being a professional Aviator and either can't or won't accept the fact that it also has an upside. I leave the positive aspects to the people who do it for a living. If you want to "pan" the profession, be my guest, your very good at it. I (again) choose to look at all sides of the equation and then make an informed decision and I would recommend this approach to anyone regarding any profession. Weigh the goood and the not so good. Your oppinion is appreciated but it is not the only one. Thank you for your time and consideration in this vitally important matter.

Again Sky, you prove my point over and over again by your standard replys to my posts. You ONLY look at the downside of being a professional Aviator and either can't or won't accept the fact that it also has an upside. I leave the positive aspects to the people who do it for a living. If you want to "pan" the profession, be my guest, your very good at it. I (again) choose to look at all sides of the equation and then make an informed decision and I would recommend this approach to anyone regarding any profession. Weigh the goood and the not so good. Your oppinion is appreciated but it is not the only one. Thank you for your time and consideration in this vitally important matter.

I still don't understand what you mean by the "up" side and wish you would give me some examples. Ask a Dentist what the up side of their profession is, aside from pay and working conditions, and what do you think they would say? "I get to stick my hands into peoples mouths"?

I don't get it. There is no up side. I personally could go the rest of my life never sitting in a jetliner again and be quite happy. I fly because I am good at it and for the satisfaction that comes from making a living. It is my profession. A job. Take away compensation and there is nothing left to talk about.

Am I supposed to say things like: The hotels are fun, the travel benefits are great, flying an ILS approach is akin to touching the face of God? I don't know what it is that you want from me.

I get the feeling that our disconnect comes from an attitudinal difference between the generations. You are into aviation to satisfy a childhood fantasy and I am here to make money. Perhaps when I was younger I held those ideas but now my life is outside of the flight deck. Had I known what lied ahead myself and most of my generation would not have taken a single flight lesson.

A quote from my first flight instructor. "I don't care what I fly so long as they pay me". (as in paid well that is)

Skyhigh

I don't get it. There is no up side. I personally could go the rest of my life never sitting in a jetliner again and be quite happy. I fly because I am good at it and for the satisfaction that comes from making a living. It is my profession. A job. Take away compensation and there is nothing left to talk about.

Then perhaps you should have taken all that money you spent on aviation and gotten an MBA. It's not too late... The business world always needs people who only care about the money.

My opinion, and this is the last I'll say, is that the aviation industry is where it is more to attitudes like yours than the other kind. When the market is flooded with people just looking for 'a job', the people who would fly for the love of flying are priced out of the market.

People who are just looking for 'a job' have everything horribly wrong in life, in my opinion.

Do what you love. Follow your passions and dreams. Anyone can die with a few million in the bank, but you don't put your initials up on the scoreboard at the end with your wealth. What matters is what you do with your life...and that, only to you.

A life lived in fear, anger, or unhappiness is a life wasted... regardless of what anyone may believe, all this fiction about wealth, power, influence... systems of government, social status and influence... is all a meta-world we've created in our minds. Little invisible walls that keep us from truly being happy. Little rules that are beaten into us by society, until we're gnarled old creatures, slavering over our greasy little hoard, daring anyone to try to take what little vestige of a life we've managed to carve for ourselves.

It's a huge, beautiful world, full of sunsets and clouds, the stygian black of a moonless night and a sky painted with stars, the space between two thunderstorms on a lonely evening, dancing a dance that none but a pilot will ever see; a world full of danger and daring and beauty and grace, a magical dance of matter and energy, photons and protons and anti-neutrinos, where the laughing face of God in his many forms looks down on His creation and grants them the one exquisite chance to breathe, eat, play and live in the moment*.

There is so much, and at the same time, so little. Do we really want to spend such precious few moments in the blind pursuit of wealth and status?


A quote from my first flight instructor. "I don't care what I fly so long as they pay me". (as in paid well that is)

I would like to gently suggest that I believe you might have misunderstood the meaning behind that.

Let me close again by saying that I don't expect you to agree with me in any way. I fully expect the opposite, and would invite a final statement in response, as this is my own. I certainly don't expect to change your mind, or anyone else's; I merely wish to paint things in a way that I feel is too rarely considered. I mean, it really is a beautiful world out there, taken as a balance. All the good, all the evil... all colors in a moment, a single moment that will exist only once in infinitesimal duration and never come again, preceded and succeeded by infinite moments of equal beauty and fullness. It always saddens me to see bitter, unhappy people; it always seems, as they say, such a waste of spirit.

Respectfully,

~Fox

I think this is my first post, but I REALLY liked the post above.

Well said :)

Then perhaps you should have taken all that money you spent on aviation and gotten an MBA. It's not too late... The business world always needs people who only care about the money.

My opinion, and this is the last I'll say, is that the aviation industry is where it is more to attitudes like yours than the other kind. When the market is flooded with people just looking for 'a job', the people who would fly for the love of flying are priced out of the market.

People who are just looking for 'a job' have everything horribly wrong in life, in my opinion.

Do what you love. Follow your passions and dreams. Anyone can die with a few million in the bank, but you don't put your initials up on the scoreboard at the end with your wealth. What matters is what you do with your life...and that, only to you.

A life lived in fear, anger, or unhappiness is a life wasted... regardless of what anyone may believe, all this fiction about wealth, power, influence... systems of government, social status and influence... is all a meta-world we've created in our minds. Little invisible walls that keep us from truly being happy. Little rules that are beaten into us by society, until we're gnarled old creatures, slavering over our greasy little hoard, daring anyone to try to take what little vestige of a life we've managed to carve for ourselves.

It's a huge, beautiful world, full of sunsets and clouds, the stygian black of a moonless night and a sky painted with stars, the space between two thunderstorms on a lonely evening, dancing a dance that none but a pilot will ever see; a world full of danger and daring and beauty and grace, a magical dance of matter and energy, photons and protons and anti-neutrinos, where the laughing face of God in his many forms looks down on His creation and grants them the one exquisite chance to breathe, eat, play and live in the moment*.

There is so much, and at the same time, so little. Do we really want to spend such precious few moments in the blind pursuit of wealth and status?



I would like to gently suggest that I believe you might have misunderstood the meaning behind that.

Let me close again by saying that I don't expect you to agree with me in any way. I fully expect the opposite, and would invite a final statement in response, as this is my own. I certainly don't expect to change your mind, or anyone else's; I merely wish to paint things in a way that I feel is too rarely considered. I mean, it really is a beautiful world out there, taken as a balance. All the good, all the evil... all colors in a moment, a single moment that will exist only once in infinitesimal duration and never come again, preceded and succeeded by infinite moments of equal beauty and fullness. It always saddens me to see bitter, unhappy people; it always seems, as they say, such a waste of spirit.

Respectfully,

~Fox
Amen brother/sister, amen!!! Maybe this will bring some light into Sky's semi dark world. Well said.

Foxy and brianb,

I appreciate the hippie sentiment. I really do. I get where you guys are coming from but most jobs are just that... jobs. The guy who picks up your trash does not do it for the 5:00AM sunrise. The people who plumbed your house are not there because they dreamed of it as kids.

Job Definition: A regular activity performed in exchange for payment, especially as one's trade, occupation, or profession.

People work for money not because of soul searching. We need money to support what does mean more to us, our families and lives. Flying is just a job and that is all. If you truly love to fly then you should not do it as a career since it eventually will suck the life out of it. Good and positive feelings about aviation will be replaced with bad ones. The magic of flight will be exchanged with the nine leg daily grind.

Young single people get into aviation with similar naive attitudes only to learn later as adults that they wish they had made a different choice. Your attitudes are self serving, self centered, unoriginal, childish and naive. Some people put their art into their work (single people) other it into their life (everyone else). I became a pilot because I thought it would pay more than a mailman and that I could have more time off to be with the family. I wanted to build a high quality life on top of a good paying solid career.

I am a pilot. I work at a factory called an airline where I manufacture approaches and landings all day long. I do it because I am good at it and have the ability to sit through endless hours of mindless rote memorization and repetition. The result of my efforts is a paycheck that I can take home to the wife and kids.

Wealth means choices. Wealth means family. Wealth means having the ability to help yourself and others. People who are wealthy live longer, have better lives and live with much less stress. They have more control over themselves and their situation. My joy is at home and with the life I have created.

I know that in time you both will begin to understand what it is that I am talking about. Foxy possibly already does since she clearly has the money to complete her training but has not yet pulled the plug on her IT career. Something is holding her back and that thing is called an internal instinct for self preservation. Work to live. Don't live to work.

Currently my wife and I own small businesses that we work from home. We live on a small grass fed beef ranch and our five (soon to be six) kids are all home schooled. I totally get the hippie thing but I am telling you that you are missing the boat. Flying is just a job. People like you are ruining aviation as a place to make a living.

You guys talk like hippies but are missing the point. Your positions are shallow, childish and self centered. A bunch of idealistic ill placed fantasy but that is OK. We do have a lot in common and you both are welcome at my home anytime. :) I really enjoy the debate.

Skyhigh

P.S. My aunt is from the bay area and holds similar attitudes as you guys. You are not from SFO by any chance are you?

Don't hold back Sky, it's not good for you. I forgive you for your un-warranted insults, again. Stay at the farm Sky, them cows need milking and those chickens need a plucking. I have a wealth of adjectives to describe people like you but I have already been slapped several times by the mods for using them. You are, without a doubt, unreachable. Good luck, I think.

Don't hold back Sky, it's not good for you. I forgive you for your un-warranted insults, again. Stay at the farm Sky, them cows need milking and those chickens need a plucking. I have a wealth of adjectives to describe people like you but I have already been slapped several times by the mods for using them. You are, without a doubt, unreachable. Good luck, I think.

I think we are on to something. Bay Area raised right? Your wife has a good job, you have a trust fund or your parents are the ones that actually pays the bills. Urban entrenched. Far removed from the realties of life.

If that is the case then you are correct. From your perspective I (and the rest of the nation) are unreachable. :)

I have just been told that there is a cow in the garden.

Skyhigh

:DRaised in the Air Force, no trust fund, wife has a great job and far removed from your realities. See, sometimes you can be partly right, just not very often.

:DRaised in the Air Force, no trust fund, wife has a great job and far removed from your realities. See, sometimes you can be partly right, just not very often.

Thanks Brian. ;) Looking forward to our next debate.

Skyhigh

Flying is just a job and that is all. If you truly love to fly then you should not do it as a career since it eventually will suck the life out of it. Good and positive feelings about aviation will be replaced with bad ones. The magic of flight will be exchanged with the nine leg daily grind.

This might have been your experience. It was/is certainly not mine.

USMCFLYR

Originally posted by Skyhigh:
In addition the main reason why I own a plane is to help maintain professional credentials and currency as a pilot. I have never quit aviation but rather am forced to wait until a suitable job comes my way. My plane helps to keep that door open.

Sir please explain why you are keeping your credentials current? I thought you were out for good?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Skyhigh:


Sir please explain why you are keeping your credentials current? I thought you were out for good?:rolleyes:


http://neoavatara.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/footinmouth.jpg

Sir please explain why you are keeping your credentials current? I thought you were out for good?:rolleyes:

I'd say it's "just in case" that brass ring happens to magically drop out of the sky at the major airlines again.

Sky has always said that he'd be back if the circumstances were right. He'd be a fool to not be prepared if that ever happens.

I'd say it's "just in case" that brass ring happens to magically drop out of the sky at the major airlines again.

Sky has always said that he'd be back if the circumstances were right. He'd be a fool to not be prepared if that ever happens.

You never know what fate will bring your way. I have over 20 years invested into aviation but can not work for 20K anymore. If circumstances change I will be there but I will not commute half way across the nation to make less than a mailman.

At least it is an excuse to stay flying. :)

Skyhigh

This might have been your experience. It was/is certainly not mine.

USMCFLYR


USMCFLYR,

You always made a good living flying the best of the best with ample benefits to take care of you. Try flying for the regionals at $492 of take home pay every two weeks. Nine leg 16 hour days and a crummy hotel at the end of it all. :mad:

No good !! Boring. No job satisfaction as you punch out approach after approach all day long.

"Gear down" "Flaps 15" "Landing checklist" over and over and over again.

Airplane swap!! "Origination checklist" "before start checklist" "after start checklist" "Before taxi Check list" "After taxi checklist to the line" You get the picture.

Skyhigh

Originally posted by Skyhigh:


Sir please explain why you are keeping your credentials current? I thought you were out for good?:rolleyes:

I am waiting for you or DE727UPS to pull me into the big time. :) I have to fly at least 50 hours a year to maintain currency. ;) However I can not afford to waste another year at new hire wages for another regional or dead end start up.

Also I am not going to fly overseas. I need to be home more than once every two months. I have a family to support. They are happy where and how we live. I can not mess that up for just anything.

Skyhigh

People work for money not because of soul searching. We need money to support what does mean more to us, our families and lives. Flying is just a job and that is all. If you truly love to fly then you should not do it as a career since it eventually will suck the life out of it. Good and positive feelings about aviation will be replaced with bad ones. The magic of flight will be exchanged with the nine leg daily grind.


This might have been your experience. It was/is certainly not mine.


USMCFLYR

Sky:
Try flying for the regionals at $492 of take home pay every two weeks. Nine leg 16 hour days and a crummy hotel at the end of it all. :mad:

No good !! Boring. No job satisfaction as you punch out approach after approach all day long.
I read your post again and I didn't see where you quantified your comment that is was solely expressing views of Regional Airline flying. Your first post seem to lump ALL flying careers into your singular view of doom and desperation.
I pointed out a different experience of aviation. As you always say Sky - my view is just as pertinent as yours. I'm new to professional aviation, but even since leaving my easy life where everything was 'given' to me as you have pointed out before, things are still not approaching the end of the world. I know that you don't believe there can a balance in a career in aviation, but I think you are wrong. Maybe the key word in your last post above was job satisfaction. Maybe you were never going to find job satisfaction in aviation :( I'm sorry for that.

USMCFLYR

Sky:

I read your post again and I didn't see where you quantified your comment that is was solely expressing views of Regional Airline flying. Your first post seem to lump ALL flying careers into your singular view of doom and desperation.
I pointed out a different experience of aviation. As you always say Sky - my view is just as pertinent as yours. I'm new to professional aviation, but even since leaving my easy life where everything was 'given' to me as you have pointed out before, things are still not approaching the end of the world. I know that you don't believe there can a balance in a career in aviation, but I think you are wrong. Maybe the key word in your last post above was job satisfaction. Maybe you were never going to find job satisfaction in aviation :( I'm sorry for that.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

I took the jobs that were offered. Most were on the poor side of the equation. You have enjoyed better situations. All I can say is that you should consider a mile in my shoes before you make judgments.

You have only exchanged one government job for another. I can assure you that the private sector is not nearly as financially rewarding or secure however I bet you already know that since you did not pursue an airline career.

It is possible that you will never know what a true sweat shop job in aviation is really like. All the better for you. I can tell you that a legacy airline job is much better than that of a regional. Longer legs, more money and better conditions all around.

I liked my job well enough to endure hardships and sacrifices that a plumber would not. My last job was the best. One leg a day usually and a good hotel at the end. Too bad.

Heaven and hell in the airlines is a measure of only a few degrees. We wear the same uniforms fly similar craft on the same routes. However one goes home to a nice upper middle class neighborhood the other to a bunk in a crash pad with six other pilots.

Aviation is becoming more turbulent every year. Mergers, shutdowns, layoffs. A 25 year old pilot could have as many as 40 years in the industry. That is plenty long enough to be tossed out and have to start over many times. It is unlikely that modern careers can go unscathed.

A hero one day could be someones FO tomorrow and the guy on the street the chief pilot at the next great start up next week. It is unlikely that I will ever find my place in the sun however fortunes can change in an instant. I still have reason for hope in that.

In any case I can not afford to waste any more years on dead ends. I have seen the results of that in my past co-workers and for the sake of my family have taken a different course.

Skyhigh

my easy life where everything was 'given' to me

Frickin' awesome.

That describes my military career, too! Sure beats actually having to work.

USMCFLYR,

All I can say is that you should consider a mile in my shoes before you make judgments.

Who is judging you Sky? Just because I think that you are unnecessarily negative on professional aviation? That has nothing to do with judging you and not having taken the same path in aviation in you. It comes from reading a few years of your ramblings. You know that I have said many times that I agree with much of what you say and that if your true purpose was to teach young pilots about the dangers of professional aviation that you would reach many more ears if you were not so extremist in your negativity. Others have mentioned it too. Your one-sded, unbending view turns more away from your worthwhile message than it does get through to them - IMO.


You have only exchanged one government job for another. I can assure you that the private sector is not nearly as financially rewarding or secure however I bet you already know that since you did not pursue an airline career.

Having never wanted to be an airline pilot, I didn't have very far to look to cement my decision to not pursue an airline career no matter how crazy my peers thought I was - then or now. So I went from one gov't job to another. Is it your opinion that I haven't really "lived life" because of it? I might as well say that since you nevered in the military that you have no love of country and are selfish for only chasing the all-mighty dollar in your pursuit of wealth. You know nothing of sacrifice for a greater good. But I won;'t becuse it is just as much a statement made of fancy as yours' when you have belittled me in the past for my career path.


It is possible that you will never know what a true sweat shop job in aviation is really like. All the better for you. I can tell you that a legacy airline job is much better than that of a regional. Longer legs, more money and better conditions all around.

Absolutely possible (darn near certain!) that I'll never know what it is like to fly at a Regional. Does that mean that I can't point out the good of aviation? Is it possible that you will never have a good job in the aviation sector (you say you haven't in your long career), but you are still able to point out ONLY the negatives. Why it that Sky? Different rules for you since you had it so rough?


Heaven and hell in the airlines is a measure of only a few degrees. We wear the same uniforms fly similar craft on the same routes. However one goes home to a nice upper middle class neighborhood the other to a bunk in a crash pad with six other pilots.


As far as your last few paragraphs - right on. Turbulent - absolutely. Changing fortunes - almost certain. Top of the heap one day, someone's FO the next - could happen.
Sounds like the ups and downs, uncertainty, and luck of the draw do what you can to help yourself, cycle of LIFE. I'm sure that being a proerty manager and small beef operation is the most sure thing in the world and no one has ever fallen on hard times in that industry; or could it be that YOU are having good luck there and others aren't?

USMCFLYR

You have only exchanged one government job for another. I can assure you that the private sector is not nearly as financially rewarding or secure however I bet you already know that since you did not pursue an airline career.

Skyhigh,

I've just got one question for you. In the mid 90's the military was aggressively hiring pilots. What stopped you?

I am also kind of shocked to hear the government sector is now paying better than the private sector for pilots. Wow what a paradigm shift I think that once again I will need to see some actual numbers.

USMCFLYR,

Asking me to produce some positives about aviation is like asking an EX in divorce court to say a few nice things about their spouse who is suing you for divorce so that they can take your assents and run away with someone else.

I don't have anything nice to say right now. I spent 25 years in this marriage to my career and am sure that at one time I was brimming with love for it but after being abused and disappointed continuously for over two decades is it kind of hard to conjure up some positives.

I was faithful and gave it everything I had. I passed every check ride, written test and always scored in the top of the class. I was a good employee. Rarely called in sick. Always gave significant notice whenever I left for another job. I have a stack of old letters of recommendation from nearly every place I worked at. I never quit nor gave up my faith.

In return it killed my friends, impoverished and humiliated me and never failed to let me down at the moments when I needed my career to pull through the most. I never made much more than 20K per year and was constantly shown by my employers that I was worthless through abusive treatment, a general lack of personal respect and cruel low wages. I have endured periods of homelessness due to my career. I watched my friends go through the same things to similar results. Most quit long ago.

Of the few peers of mine who are still doing it and have accomplished something they all have had to give considerable concessions from their personal lives. Many have forgone spouses, avoided accumulation of an estate and have denied themselves a personal life to satisfy the demands of aviation. Others have given up their homeland and everyone and everything they knew to remain in the saddle.

If I have learned one thing it is a that aviation eventually gives up all to those who ardently pursue it. It usually comes six months after you really don't want the job anymore. I have been able to eventually get every single job I ever wanted in aviation but one. The one that really mattered. The job that I made all the previous sacrifices for. I am sure that once I have completely moved on sold my plane and boxed up all my aviation stuff my EX will come knocking again offering a once dream job that by then will hold little value.


Skyhigh

In reference to your comment regarding fate and personal control. I do not think that aviation and most everything else are the same. As pilots our career progression lies in the hands of others. You could be the best pilot on the line or the worse and you will be eligible for promotion when and only when your number comes up. If the company goes under everyone has to start completely over again.

In business you have much more control over your fate and your professional value is transportable. My success or failure largely rests in my hands. Sure a bad economy or a change in interest rates can have a negative result however I have the ability to respond. My efforts can and do make a difference in my outcome. In business when changing jobs often it is to a better position with more wages and not back to the mail room as with the airlines.

Pilots have little control or influence over their fate.

Peace !

Skyhigh,

I've just got one question for you. In the mid 90's the military was aggressively hiring pilots. What stopped you?

I am also kind of shocked to hear the government sector is now paying better than the private sector for pilots. Wow what a paradigm shift I think that once again I will need to see some actual numbers.


Ask USMCFLYR. I bet he made more as a military officer than most legacy captains. I bet his current job pays much more than a new hire at a regional and has real benefits too.

or were you being ironic?

I approached the military at the time I graduated from college and they were not hiring. Most of the ROTC guys who were offered training slots got the boot prior to starting. By the time the military began hiring pilots I was already on my way in the civilian route. Why would I have chosen the military at that point when FAPA was telling us all in Career Pilot magazine that we would be rock star legacy airline pilots in just a few years?

Skyhigh

Ask USMCFLYR. I bet he made more as a military officer than most legacy captains. I bet his current job pays much more than a new hire at a regional and has real benefits too.

Military pays scales are available on the web.
Did you just say that I made MORE as a militry officer than a Legacy captain?
At least in MY timeframe when my peers and seniors were getting out of the military to go to the airlines, it took about 3 years as an FO to make back what you were making in the military and then QUICKLY outpaced. That is WHY people were leaving the military for the airlines - and because they were tired of deploying.
Edit: I just did the min pay for a Delta CA on the DC-9 at 5 years.
WAY MORE than I was making when I retired!

As far as my current job paying more than a Regional New hire....well I certainly hope so!
There isn't anyone getting hired here with 1000 hrs of experience that I have come across. I couldn't beleive the level of experience of the newly hired pilots that I met in my P135 Indoc class.
Why did you go from comparing my militry salary to a Legacy Captin and then in the next breath compare my new gov't salary to a Regional new hire? Were you trying to make a specific point?
Were you trying to say that after a career in the military I would bethe same as a legacy Captain, but as a gov't new hire I am the same as a Regional new hire? The benefits are a plus of this job. It was certainly one of the draws for me.


I approached the military at the time I graduated from college and they were not hiring. Most of the ROTC guys who were offered training slots got the boot prior to starting.

How do you possibly have stats on MOST of the ROTC guys getting booted prior to training Sky?
Are you making a sweeping statement again without any proof :rolleyes:
Do you mean the few ROTC guys that you might have known in college?

The military is ALWAYS hiring Sky.
What you meant is that you were not competitive enough during the time that you looked into the military for a pilot's slot.


Why would I have chosen the military at that point when FAPA was telling us all in Career Pilot magazine that we would be rock star legacy airline pilots in just a few years?


Why would you have chosen the military? I don't know - wanting to be part of something BIGGER than yourself and the pursuit of money? A sense of duty? A desire to give something back to your country? There are many reasons that one might decide to join the military and leave even a well paying civilian job behind. Pat Tillman would be one example.

USMCFLYR

Why would you have chosen the military? I don't know - wanting to be part of something BIGGER than yourself and the pursuit of money? A sense of duty? A desire to give something back to your country? There are many reasons that one might decide to join the military and leave even a well paying civilian job behind. Pat Tillman would be one example.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

I have always said join the military for the military not because you think it will be a good career move in regards to an airline career. I came from a military family and my brother and I both did not have the desire to serve.

I should have clarified that of the ROTC guys in my college aviation program most were not given the pilot training that they were promised. In addition the military cleaned house just after Desert Storm and of the few who did make it through training were given an early out.

Looking back however had it been available I think the military would have been a good choice. Not for the flying but the stable income, benefits and for the ability to serve. My brother and I had the military shoved down our throats our entire lives and could not see the benefits through our desire to go against the wishes of our parents.

When you add it all up military pilots do very well in comparison to civilian pilots. I wish I had pursued it more.

Skyhigh

Why would I have chosen the military at that point when FAPA was telling us all in Career Pilot magazine that we would be rock star legacy airline pilots in just a few years?

RIGHT and Playboy magazine claims that all I have to do to get lucky with a bunny is wear such and such cologne.

Really,REALLY?:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:I will be here for you Sky. I think this would be more fun with a couple of pints to loosen the tongue. Don't you think? Happy holidays.

[/QUOTE]

RIGHT and Playboy magazine claims that all I have to do to get lucky with a bunny is wear such and such cologne.

Really,REALLY?:rolleyes:

Hoss,

It was a joke. FAPA also told us that a career at the majors was worth 10.5 million too. Before APC accurate information was difficult to come by. All we had was Kit Darby. :)

Skyhigh

:rolleyes:I will be here for you Sky. I think this would be more fun with a couple of pints to loosen the tongue. Don't you think? Happy holidays.

Right on !!

I really think that you and I will be good friends. :)

Skyhigh

Hoss,

It was a joke. FAPA also told us that a career at the majors was worth 10.5 million too. Before APC accurate information was difficult to come by. All we had was Kit Darby.

Skyhigh

Does this mean that I am not going to have a Playboy Bunny for a girlfriend?:confused:

Does this mean that I am not going to have a Playboy Bunny for a girlfriend?:confused:

I don't think your wife would like that anyway. ;)

Skyhigh

I don't think your wife would like that anyway. ;)

Skyhigh

Discretion is the key to a happy marriage.