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View Full Version : G200 vs. CL300


Lifeisgood
12-03-2010, 11:52 AM
Gents,

I have a friend flying in Russia. Their small department has Hawker-125, but the owner is thinking to upgrade the operation.
He is looking at G200 and CL300 from the financial standpoint.
And being a nice guy he is asking his pilots for their opinions as well.

What do you think about both aircraft?
Flying, corks, comfort, dispatch reliability - anything will be appreciated.

Handling in ice?

Thanks a million!


dualrated19
12-03-2010, 05:00 PM
I flew the G200 once and I worked at a department that had them... they have really high ref speeds, they have boots instead of heated edges and eat up a lot of runway in a contaminated situation. If I had the choice of boots or heated leading edges over in Russia I'd probably shy away from the boots. It definitely didn't have the dispatch reliability of the standard Gulfstreams. Again, I'm not typed... the avionics were nice but it wasn't my favorite aircraft.

USMCFLYR
12-03-2010, 05:39 PM
I work at a place that use to fly the -125s and currently fly a Challenger model and they can't say enough GOOD things about the Hawker!

USMCFLYR


UCLAbruins
12-03-2010, 06:49 PM
there's a really good article on the October issue of Profesional pilot magazine, "Bombardier hit a home run with the CL300". Both passengers and pilots love it.

I know a flight attendant that used to work for Flexjet. She said the -300s are now doing more crossings than the -604s. She said owners prefer the CL300 vs the CL604 for the long legs.


I'm probably the biggest CL300 fan outhere. She's a sexy beast and does the job

Krusty
12-03-2010, 07:01 PM
CL300, or better yet FA2000 if you can afford

QuietSpike
12-03-2010, 07:20 PM
I flew the G200 once and I worked at a department that had them... they have really high ref speeds, they have boots instead of heated edges and eat up a lot of runway in a contaminated situation. If I had the choice of boots or heated leading edges over in Russia I'd probably shy away from the boots. It definitely didn't have the dispatch reliability of the standard Gulfstreams. Again, I'm not typed... the avionics were nice but it wasn't my favorite aircraft.


LoL... What?

Having heated edges over boots is pure ego.

First, you *rarely* need the boots... and second, they rob 100% of ZERO engine power! So while most lose a significant percentage of thrust in the climb, the G200 keeps rocketing upwards with no thrust loss.


The cabin is larger on the G200. The cargo is larger on the G200. The range is longer on the G200. The cruise speeds are the same. The avionics are very comparable. The direct operating costs are comparable... and the G200 right now would be much cheaper to buy with the G250 coming out than the CL300. Not to mention, the product support with Gulfstream is light years ahead of Bomardier.

Having said all of that... If given the choice, I, too, would choose the CL300. It is a better pilot's airplane, it looks better (pure ego/preference)... it is, in my opinion, a more "capable" airplane. However, I feel when the G250 is delivered, the CL300 will be obsolete.

NowCorporate
12-03-2010, 07:55 PM
LoL... What?

Having heated edges over boots is pure ego.

First, you *rarely* need the boots... and second, they rob 100% of ZERO engine power! So while most lose a significant percentage of thrust in the climb, the G200 keeps rocketing upwards with no thrust loss.


The cabin is larger on the G200. The cargo is larger on the G200. The range is longer on the G200. The cruise speeds are the same. The avionics are very comparable. The direct operating costs are comparable... and the G200 right now would be much cheaper to buy with the G250 coming out than the CL300. Not to mention, the product support with Gulfstream is light years ahead of Bomardier.

Having said all of that... If given the choice, I, too, would choose the CL300. It is a better pilot's airplane, it looks better (pure ego/preference)... it is, in my opinion, a more "capable" airplane. However, I feel when the G250 is delivered, the CL300 will be obsolete.


Having plenty of time in a G200, it dosen't rocket anywhere....except far down a long long runway when its attempting to takeoff with that bizarre wing it has...

and yes - they are cheap...but thats always for a reason, right?

Lifeisgood
12-04-2010, 06:09 AM
Thank you very much!

One of the pilots over there is under impression that the CL300 doesn't have any wing anti-ice protection at all (?) He heard that the wing is built the way that the ice accumulation is minimal - is that true?

Thx

QuietSpike
12-04-2010, 07:46 AM
Having plenty of time in a G200, it dosen't rocket anywhere....except far down a long long runway when its attempting to takeoff with that bizarre wing it has...

and yes - they are cheap...but thats always for a reason, right?


LoL... again... what??

I took a G200 from Geneva, Switzerland, climbing at 300/.80 to FL390 in 13 minutes... that is a rocket.

Your take-off distances for a normal 2-3 hour leg are in the 3800-4300' ballpark with typical loads.

Out of Aspen on a clear day, you can make it to the east coast doing .80 cruise with zero problems.

You are in cruise power range in the climb out until about 20k feet, otherwise you would be doing 5-7 thousand feet per minute.



What 200 are you flying?:cool:



And the reason they are cheap right now is because of the G250... and the market sucks (not sure if you noticed). You think they would still ask 20 million for a CL300 if the CL350 came out?

BoilerUP
12-04-2010, 08:40 AM
Full-fuel useful load is much better in the CL300 than the G200.

As to performance...Bombardier advertises 3100nm @ 0.80M with eight passengers while Gulfstream says the G200 will go 3400nm @ 0.75M with four passengers...or 3050nm @ 0.80M with again, just four passengers. Takeoff distance @ MTOW & ISA for the G200 is 6080ft, while the CL30 is 4810ft.

Conferring with pilots who have flown both airframes, they always prefer the CL300 while their pax tend to prefer the cabin of the G200.

As to pricing...sure seems Falcon 2000s of similar age have held their values MUCH better than the G200 in a down market, even with the successor 2000EX/LX variants.

galaxy flyer
12-04-2010, 07:08 PM
CL 30 uses bleed air for wings and cowl de-icing

It has regularly outsold the G200 and doesn't have issues transiting the Middle East. If it is the GULFSTREAM 200, the Jet Commander is the G25

ce650
12-05-2010, 03:46 PM
The 200 has a cabin door issue that has NOT been resolved in the 250. I just witnessed a 200 crew in HDN struggle for 30 min trying to get the door closed. Pilots exact words were that you needed a PHD to operate the cabin door!

We demoed a 200 last year when gulfstream wanted to sell us one and get our name on a 250 slot. They had door problems on the demo.

They can put scaled down gulfstream wings and tail on a piper cub,,, It's still a piper cub.

topprospect16
12-05-2010, 07:10 PM
Go with the 300

The dude
12-05-2010, 07:54 PM
They can put scaled down gulfstream wings and tail on a piper cub,,, It's still a piper cub.

Off topic here, but it always cracks me up a little to hear Astra/g150 or Galaxy/G200 pilots telling people they fly "A Gulfstream".

PW305
12-05-2010, 07:59 PM
Off topic here, but it always cracks me up a little to hear Astra/g150 or Galaxy/G200 pilots telling people they fly "A Gulfstream".

What is a G150 pilot supposed to say?

aero24
12-05-2010, 08:08 PM
I thought this question was a joke when I clicked on it.

This was the first time I've ever heard a 200 pilot say it was a performer :confused: So I did get a laugh! You did come up with the correct answer though quite! just confused us all with your positive comments? on commission still?

You won't be in the ice long enough to notice the wing heat on in the 300 cause it'll climb right on up.. and the confusion about anti/ice may be the fact that the tail isn't heated

The dude
12-05-2010, 08:09 PM
What is a G150 pilot supposed to say?

Whatever they want. But if I flew one I'd say "G150" rather than just..."A Gulfstream".

QuietSpike
12-05-2010, 08:45 PM
Whatever they want. But if I flew one I'd say "G150" rather than just..."A Gulfstream".

And nothing cracks me up more than a large cabin pilot who thinks he has the keys to the crapper.

Sorry pal, times have changed, and a G150 is a "Gulfstream". A G250 is a "Gulfstream".... get used to it.

And this from a guy with 450/550 "stuff" on his license.:rolleyes:

QuietSpike
12-05-2010, 08:53 PM
I thought this question was a joke when I clicked on it.

This was the first time I've ever heard a 200 pilot say it was a performer :confused: So I did get a laugh! You did come up with the correct answer though quite! just confused us all with your positive comments? on commission still?

You won't be in the ice long enough to notice the wing heat on in the 300 cause it'll climb right on up.. and the confusion about anti/ice may be the fact that the tail isn't heated

I only speak the truth... the 200 has a bad rep that I do not think is fully deserved. Yes, out of Toluca, Mex, you will not be able to go max range... but I regularly had that plane at .83 normal cruise, had no less than 1000 fpm at .80 in the climb, had BFL ~4500'.

I also have never had a problem with the door... and would not call it a huge "issue". Who did your demo from "the stream"? I guess I just got lucky every time I closed it.:rolleyes:

The thing no one has mentioned is the nasty tail-vibration you get above 300 kts or at high mach speeds. Gulfstream took s/n 24 and put yarn all over the tail and found that it actually had reverse flow in places-- only evident in the 200 because of the elongated trim tab-- but the reverse flow exists on that tail design on the astra, G150, westwind, etc. That is the main reason why the tail was re-designed for the G250.

The tail vibration, and the fact that I feel the CL300 is a more "capable" airplane (newer design, more pilot friendly) is the reason I would say the CL300.... but again, when the G250 comes out, that is a whole new discussion.

Hoof Hearted
12-05-2010, 09:04 PM
I would consider the Hawker 4000 also. I believe the manufacturer is adding a maintenance package that makes it almost free.. ( I love that line). After 45 production planes have been built, I think the Plastic Jet has worked out it's kinks.
My .02

The dude
12-06-2010, 10:01 AM
And this from a guy with 450/550 "stuff" on his license.:rolleyes:

Good for you.

NowCorporate
12-06-2010, 10:28 AM
Off topic here, but it always cracks me up a little to hear Astra/g150 or Galaxy/G200 pilots telling people they fly "A Gulfstream".

Thats funny because it cracks me up when I hear ANY pilot say "I fly a Gulfstream"...the effect much greater when you add the deep Gulfstream voice and the Gulfstream attire (shirt jacket lanyard briefcase)

Add some pictures of the airshow at FL510 posted on the internet boards and you have the makings of a complete Gulfstream Corporate Pilot Jackass.

PW305
12-06-2010, 10:46 AM
Whatever they want. But if I flew one I'd say "G150" rather than just..."A Gulfstream".

What did you design the G-IV or do you just ride around on it? Lol

ce650
12-06-2010, 11:33 AM
I would consider the Hawker 4000 also. I believe the manufacturer is adding a maintenance package that makes it almost free.. ( I love that line). After 45 production planes have been built, I think the Plastic Jet has worked out it's kinks.
My .02

We demo flew the 4000 and i loved it. But rumor has it there is an operator south of us with two 4000's and are not happy with them.

The dude
12-06-2010, 02:42 PM
Ha ha ha. Okay okay I'm sorry I've offended everyone. I'll take back my horrible statement and feel bad for the rest of the day.

G150's are gulfstreams. Everyone happy? I'll go out and buy an "Israeli Aircraft" T-shirt later

QuietSpike
12-06-2010, 08:41 PM
Ha ha ha. Okay okay I'm sorry I've offended everyone. I'll take back my horrible statement and feel bad for the rest of the day.

G150's are gulfstreams. Everyone happy? I'll go out and buy an "Israeli Aircraft" T-shirt later

Dude... you fly a IV-SP... not even in the current product line up... you are like the dude in a GII that goes around and says "I fly a LARGE cabin! I must be somebody!"

I can smell the sarcasm in your statement (I can smell it over the BS in your posts), and think you really need to get over yourself... You really think a IV-SP that was designed in the early 90s makes you more of a "gulfstream pilot" than something with pro-line 21 avionics, CCD, and designed in the mid 2000s? Oh wait, it's BIGGER... I forgot... my bad.:rolleyes:

I am sure other things you have are "bigger" as well... tee hee! :)

-spike

jhugz
12-06-2010, 11:12 PM
Gotta love APC where every thread turns into a dong measuring contest.

ce650
12-07-2010, 03:40 AM
OK put the rulers away and zip up your pants! How about product service? I have heard nothing but good from Gulfstream, Challenger on the other hand I have recieved mixed reviews, mainly on parts avalibility.

One operator I chatted with told of a time when they orderd a part and were sent somthing completely different! And it was way different too,,like they ordered a brake assy and recieved an outflow valve! for example.

QuietSpike
12-07-2010, 08:46 AM
OK put the rulers away and zip up your pants! How about product service? I have heard nothing but good from Gulfstream, Challenger on the other hand I have recieved mixed reviews, mainly on parts avalibility.

One operator I chatted with told of a time when they orderd a part and were sent somthing completely different! And it was way different too,,like they ordered a brake assy and recieved an outflow valve! for example.


Personally.. the thread went downhill when 'king pilot' said a G150 isn't a "real" gulfstream... on that logic, I guess the G650 isn't a "real" gulfstream either because it is a completely clean sheet design.

I would say customer service from 'the stream' is much better than from Bombardier. Having personally flown the Airborne Product Support plane for the stream, I can attest to this. We would routinely fly a gasket that couldn't be more than a few dollars in value halfway across the country for someone. On the other hand, I remember flying a new windshield from SAV to COS for a G200 customer that had cracked theirs... only to find out when we got there that we brought the wrong windshield... a little detail you think they (gulfstream) could have noticed before taking off.

I know Bombardier advertises that they have a version of airborne product support, but unless something has changed in the past year or so... they are using flexjet for parts deliveries, and really only when they are available. Better than nothing, but doesn't compare with the stream.

QuietSpike
12-07-2010, 08:47 AM
Good for you.


your hypocrisy is amazing.

BoilerUP
12-07-2010, 08:48 AM
"The stream"? Really?

I know you worked there and could care less what pet names people call their airplanes or their employer...but its that kind of "perspective" that some people shake their head at....

QuietSpike
12-07-2010, 09:26 AM
"The stream"? Really?

I know you worked there and could care less what pet names people call their airplanes or their employer...but its that kind of "perspective" that some people shake their head at....


:confused:?? *shaking head* ?? :confused:


Some of us called it 'the stream' when I was there... I was just trying to type something different than "gulfstream" 20 times.

I really don't see what is so offensive about it! :)

NowCorporate
12-07-2010, 10:08 AM
Personally.. the thread went downhill when 'king pilot' said a G150 isn't a "real" gulfstream... on that logic, I guess the G650 isn't a "real" gulfstream either because it is a completely clean sheet design.

I would say customer service from 'the stream' is much better than from Bombardier. Having personally flown the Airborne Product Support plane for the stream, I can attest to this. We would routinely fly a gasket that couldn't be more than a few dollars in value halfway across the country for someone. On the other hand, I remember flying a new windshield from SAV to COS for a G200 customer that had cracked theirs... only to find out when we got there that we brought the wrong windshield... a little detail you think they (gulfstream) could have noticed before taking off.

I know Bombardier advertises that they have a version of airborne product support, but unless something has changed in the past year or so... they are using flexjet for parts deliveries, and really only when they are available. Better than nothing, but doesn't compare with the stream.


THE STREAM.

Having a lot of time in a Global and a STREAM 200 I can tell you that wonderful product support does nothing when the POS STREAM breaks down monthly.

I'd rather not need product support that often!

having flown STREAMS, Bombardier, and Falcon products for years they are all about equally as reliable (disclaimer: my experience is on newer aircraft)

THE STREAM...:eek::o....thats great! - and the grumman fanboys wonder why they have douchebag reputations!!!

LOL.