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View Full Version : What plane should the boss buy?


stunami
01-06-2011, 09:50 PM
My wife's boss is looking into buying a plane for his company and is looking for suggestions for what plane would be good for his needs. Most flights are less than 500nm with less than 4 people, but he would also like the capability to fly with 8 people and lots of bags (skis) to Sun Valley. Of course purchase price and operating costs are also a factor. The first thing that comes to my mind is either a King Air or a Caravan, but I would like to see what people here have to say.


frozenboxhauler
01-07-2011, 01:42 AM
A BBJ would do the trick, nicely.
fbh

BoilerUP
01-07-2011, 03:47 AM
Budget (both for acquisition & annual operating) is a pretty important factor...

Sounds like a B200 would work.


BANYO4
01-07-2011, 05:53 AM
I would say a B200 also. If it has wing lockers for the ski's and golf clubs it is a plus but if it does not it is worth the 30K to put them in. We have the wing lockers on our 90 and 200. The Van in the summer months would be have trouble with weight at high DA airports.

Formerbuspilot
01-07-2011, 08:21 AM
KingAir... Yes, and make it a 350. There are plenty of them available and the prices arent to bad for now depending on his budget.... which is what?

FBP

Ewfflyer
01-07-2011, 08:44 AM
Don't rule out a PC-12 also in that mix. All great airframes for the mission. Although the 350 might be a little "excessive." You can get too much airframe.

floydbird
01-07-2011, 08:55 AM
If 8 people plus lots of bags/ski's to Sun Valley are a requirement, a King Air 200 will not work....King Air 350.

727gm
01-07-2011, 09:25 AM
CE-501SP - but make 2 trips....

And they're cheap.

stunami
01-07-2011, 12:09 PM
KingAir... Yes, and make it a 350. There are plenty of them available and the prices arent to bad for now depending on his budget.... which is what?

FBP

We havn't talked price, but my instinct tells me that he will look at used King Air prices and scale back his "requirements." That said, as a minimum he would need to be able to fly 4 people over the Cascades and into SUN in the winter (with a couple sets of ski gear). Flying into icing conditions and density altitude would be a factor. Also, I should add, he owns a seafood company, so I could imagine a scenario where he would want to fly with a large cooler or two stocked with salmon.

RJSAviator76
01-08-2011, 10:33 AM
You can get away with King Air 200 for 4 people and 500 miles, but you'll struggle with 8 people and loaded with skis. King Air 350 is perfect for both missions.

cobber
01-08-2011, 01:43 PM
[QUOTE=stunami;926393]We havn't talked price, but my instinct tells me that he will look at used King Air prices and scale back his "requirements." That said, as a minimum he would need to be able to fly 4 people over the Cascades and into SUN in the winter (with a couple sets of ski gear). Flying into icing conditions and density altitude would be a factor. Also, I should add, he owns a seafood company, so I could imagine a scenario where he would want to fly with a large cooler or two stocked with salmon.[/QUOTE

Pilatus - Used obviously. The operating cost is less than the king air and it would fulfill the majority of his missions it sounds like. Of course he may no be comfortable with only one engine. I believe there are several for sale through Clay Lacy on BFI.

bcaviator
01-08-2011, 01:50 PM
The 350 would be great, but if that is too much airplane, I agree with the B200, however if you want to carry more stuff AND fuel, explore a 200GT, or the new King air 250.

joepilot
01-09-2011, 01:38 PM
Think about whether this a business purchase or an ego purchase.

If it is business, you get a plane that will take care of the majority of the trips efficiently, and charter for the rare ones that exceed what the main aircraft can do.

If he is taking eight people skiing, especially family, it sounds more like an ego purchase so he can brag about how successful he is.

Joe;)

porqueno
01-09-2011, 01:54 PM
1987 BEECHCRAFT OTHER for sale in Farmington, New Mexico - AeroTrader.com (http://www.aerotrader.com/find/listing/1987-Beechcraft-Other-97664259)

stunami
01-10-2011, 09:49 AM
Think about whether this a business purchase or an ego purchase.

If it is business, you get a plane that will take care of the majority of the trips efficiently, and charter for the rare ones that exceed what the main aircraft can do.

If he is taking eight people skiing, especially family, it sounds more like an ego purchase so he can brag about how successful he is.

Joe;)

It would be a business purchase. Every year he airlines employees to places like SUN, but 95% of the flying would be with less than 4 people. He would like to have a plane, however the business case would have to be made.

stunami
01-10-2011, 10:37 AM
And if the business justification cannot be made for a King Air or a Pilatus, what are the pros and cons of a smaller aircraft? Something along the lines of a Cessna 402, Piper Cheyenne or Malibu Mirage? Of course, ski trips to SUN would not happen.

BoilerUP
01-10-2011, 11:07 AM
A TBM or Meridian can be more to buy than a used B90 or King Air 200...of course they're newer and cost less to operate...

joepilot
01-10-2011, 12:16 PM
King Air 200 sounds optimum for the primary mission, but if that is beyond the budget, consider the Cessna 425. It is basically a C-421 with a wing strech and Pratt PT-6 engines. I think less than 200 were built, so it may be hard to find one.

Joe

stunami
01-10-2011, 01:53 PM
King Air 200 sounds optimum for the primary mission, but if that is beyond the budget, consider the Cessna 425. It is basically a C-421 with a wing strech and Pratt PT-6 engines. I think less than 200 were built, so it may be hard to find one.

Joe

Can it accomodate a couple of coolers of fish?

BoilerUP
01-10-2011, 01:56 PM
Can it accomodate a couple of coolers of fish?

Yup, depending on just how large the coolers are. Spring for the wing lockers and it definitely won't be an issue.

withthatsaid182
01-10-2011, 08:06 PM
The Meridian doesn't have too good of range or payload from what I've seen.

The PC-12 is nice but the insurance is STEEP.

The TBM is a close second to the PC-12 but again only 4 people in the back.

As soon as he wants to bring 8 people the type of airplane goes up dramatically in size and price.

BoilerUP
01-11-2011, 02:36 AM
Insurance premiums high for a PC12? Can't say I've ever heard that before...got any examples?

withthatsaid182
01-11-2011, 07:27 AM
Insurance premiums high for a PC12? Can't say I've ever heard that before...got any examples?


I was talking to a mgmt type from a company that runs a large PC-12 operation and he was saying $60k a year. I think he mentioned the high hull value.

BoilerUP
01-11-2011, 07:59 AM
I was talking to a mgmt type from a company that runs a large PC-12 operation and he was saying $60k a year. I think he mentioned the high hull value.

That's re-damn-diculous.

We have single-pilot coverage on our CJ2+ at $6.7M hull and $10M liability for less than $17k/year. While I have no doubt a fleet operator would have higher liability limits, there's no way I can fathom a PC12 getting remotely close to $60k.

quimby
01-11-2011, 08:19 AM
A Dash 10 CE-441 or Dash 10 Turbo Commander might do the trick if you can find a good deal.

NowCorporate
01-11-2011, 08:20 AM
I was talking to a mgmt type from a company that runs a large PC-12 operation and he was saying $60k a year. I think he mentioned the high hull value.

Maybe 6K a year.

60K? lol...

We insure a 52MIL hull with 500MIL in Liability for around that price.

dapper993
01-11-2011, 03:10 PM
Single Engine Aircraft for commercial use it doesn't surprise me too much. But again I guess that depends on what you define a large PC-12 fleet to be. Hull on Jets are cheaper/million to insure. Are they operating under 135 single pilot or as a crew. On our King Air fleet policy the difference between running a crew vs. single pilot at 25 million liability affected the price by 10k yearly. Our beechjet with over twice the hull value of one of our B200s is less than the B200 with the same pilots and liability coverage.

A B200 is a great airplane with a reasonable operating cost but you won't be able to fill it up with people and fuel that is for sure. Although who knows that may change soon if that Gross Weight Increase STC is released increasing GTOW to 14k.

BigMike
01-13-2011, 07:49 PM
KingAir 300. Outstanding and I mean OUTSTANDING performance for the cost. Load up 8 pax and 500# of stuff and fly a thousand miles. Totally different animal (performance-wise) than the 200.

Godzilla
01-14-2011, 11:07 AM
Where do you want to depart from when flying to SUN?
It seems like we are missing a vital piece of information here.

stunami
01-14-2011, 11:16 AM
Where do you want to depart from when flying to SUN?
It seems like we are missing a vital piece of information here.


Good question, based in Seattle area to SUN.

Belly Flyer
01-15-2011, 12:48 PM
B200 will be inadequate for those trips with 8. I wouldn't want to fly over that terrain with a single engine airplane, even if it is a PC-12. If you were in the flatlands, I would say that the PC-12 would be a good choice. Yes the PW engine is very reliable, however there are instances of failure. I have a friend who lost his engine in the PC-12 over water and had to be rescued after ditching. He and PAX in the water a long time before rescue. However, the King Air 300 or 350 is the best option IMHO for your mission requirments. Older models can be acquired very reasonably in this market. Just my .02

BoilerUP
01-15-2011, 01:10 PM
You don't buy an airplane for your 20% mission, you buy it for your 80% mission.

The OP said "most flights" are 500nm with 4 passengers - VERY doable in a B200 and quite economical. Getting in and out of Sun Valley to and from Seattle is also very doable in a King Air with 4 pax & skis & coolers of fish, but not with 8 folks and a whole bunch of bags & skis & coolers.

Of course the B350 will do everything listed, but should the HMFIC expend more capital on acquisition and absorb higher operating costs simply to meet an occasional ski mission, especially if the ~$2M entry price floor for a 20 year old 350 might be a bit rich for a new operator?

clipperskipper
01-15-2011, 04:19 PM
The State of Florida is auctioning off a 2000 Beechcraft King Air 350, and a 2003 Cessna Citation Bravo on February 9, they are hoping to get $2M for the pair.

PW305
01-15-2011, 05:10 PM
You don't buy an airplane for your 20% mission, you buy it for your 80% mission.

This is really your best advice, especially for their first acquisition.

ekuflyer
01-16-2011, 03:00 AM
The State of Florida is auctioning off a 2000 Beechcraft King Air 350, and a 2003 Cessna Citation Bravo on February 9, they are hoping to get $2M for the pair.

More likely $2M each.

dapper993
01-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Considering they don't out right own the jet and have a 3.4 mil payoff I doubt they would sell the pair for 2 million.

clipperskipper
01-16-2011, 01:36 PM
Considering they don't out right own the jet and have a 3.4 mil payoff I doubt they would sell the pair for 2 million.

That number was from the local press, so take it fwiw. Just curious how you
were able to find out how much paper was owed?

DYNASTY HVY
01-16-2011, 03:16 PM
Nothing says ego like a G4 :)

NowCorporate
01-16-2011, 03:24 PM
Nothing says ego like a G4 :)

very true....in 1987.

:)

MR JT8D
01-16-2011, 06:51 PM
If she want to climb the corporate ladder, tell her to suggest an MU-2.

DYNASTY HVY
01-17-2011, 06:38 AM
very true....in 1987.

:)
LOL ! just looking at the budget aspect .:cool:

dapper993
07-01-2011, 04:15 PM
That number was from the local press, so take it fwiw. Just curious how you
were able to find out how much paper was owed?

A little late but better than never...I am not sure where i originally found that number but this article states the same.

Florida Gov. Rick Scott sells state planes, fulfilling campaign promise - St. Petersburg Times (http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/florida-gov-rick-scott-sells-state-planes-fulfilling-campaign-promise/1151135)

Take it for what its worth considering source...

GNENSEC
07-03-2011, 02:51 PM
My wife's boss is looking into buying a plane for his company and is looking for suggestions for what plane would be good for his needs. Most flights are less than 500nm with less than 4 people, but he would also like the capability to fly with 8 people and lots of bags (skis) to Sun Valley. Of course purchase price and operating costs are also a factor. The first thing that comes to my mind is either a King Air or a Caravan, but I would like to see what people here have to say.

King Air 350 Full Fuel, Fully loaded is the way to go.

B200 as soon as you put two passengers on, typically you are taking off fuel and range starts to go away.

IdahoFlyer
07-06-2011, 08:59 AM
Most of the planes mentioned up to this point should do the trick. You may want to mention to the boss man that getting into KSUN in the winter can be iffy. The approach mins only get you down to 1800 AGL, so if there's any wx you probably won't make it in. I fly into KSUN (or try to at least) all the time. Plenty of wx delays getting in and out in the winter, so lost of fuel is a plus. Oh, and the published missed is 80 NM to the holding fix, so keep that in mind too. May as well fly into KTWF and make the 2 hr drive up to Sun Valley. That's where most people end up after missing the approach anyway.

Flint Stone
07-07-2011, 12:49 PM
I was talking to a mgmt type from a company that runs a large PC-12 operation and he was saying $60k a year. I think he mentioned the high hull value.


He would be a charter operator then, we paid about 40k per aircraft on our part 91 Hawkers, and we bought new ones every 5 years!

forgot to bid
07-07-2011, 06:16 PM
You don't buy an airplane for your 20% mission, you buy it for your 80% mission.

The OP said "most flights" are 500nm with 4 passengers - VERY doable in a B200 and quite economical. Getting in and out of Sun Valley to and from Seattle is also very doable in a King Air with 4 pax & skis & coolers of fish, but not with 8 folks and a whole bunch of bags & skis & coolers.

Of course the B350 will do everything listed, but should the HMFIC expend more capital on acquisition and absorb higher operating costs simply to meet an occasional ski mission, especially if the ~$2M entry price floor for a 20 year old 350 might be a bit rich for a new operator?

I 100% agree.

fwiw, most airplanes I saw purchased were an emotional purchase they thought they could afford off the "business" tax deduction but it was really intended for personal use and they didn't really think about operating costs so they then attempted to shoehorn the airplane into their budget and when that didn't work it was time to supplement costs with charter and uh oh that tax deduction isn't going to happen like they thought and the whole thing failed miserably and they couldn't sell it. Painfully long sentence for a long painful process.

2 rules:
1. Don't buy an airplane unless you need it FOR BUSINESS.
2. Don't purchase anything you can't sell.

Start there. Look how many King Air 200s are for sale. 350s as well. Citation 501SPs as well.

It this is really for business then find a good deal on charter from an FBO somewhere within a reasonable distance and use them until the costs exceed what it'd cost to own and operate you're own MU-2 or 690B plus 30% then consider buying one of those first... and spend $$$ on the pilot, it'll be worth every penny as good ones do not come a dime a dozen.

Had I had the opportunity to talk to my boss about his aircraft purchases he'd never bought a Legacy, which was an awesome plane. I would've suggested the airplane he really needed which would've been the Hawker 800XP that he previously owned or now the Phenom 100 he ordered. He bought the big Legacy to carry lots of people and to go far, but he never needed the size and range but about once every six months, most of his trips were under an hour or two max and mostly one passenger. So most of the time he loathed using the plane even if relatively speaking it was cheap for it's size but it was too much for the mission at hand. Hell any airplane was. So he used his black amex miles and flew on Delta and let the plane fly charter. I think he'd been happier in retrospect with his Hawker or maybe even an Excel even though I was warned to stay away by several Excel folks from the make and secondly the model.

I see an airplane as no different than a house, figure out your budget and buy a house that costs half that and you'll be happier and better able to handle the bills and the upkeep.

If she want to climb the corporate ladder, tell her to suggest an MU-2.

I love the MU-2. Short or long body. Loud? Yes, to everyone outside of it. And who cares about them.

I was talking to a mgmt type from a company that runs a large PC-12 operation and he was saying $60k a year. I think he mentioned the high hull value.

Our insurance premiums in 2007 and 2008 for a purchased new 2006 Embraer Legacy was exactly $67,005. It was purchased for $21.6M.

BigMike
07-07-2011, 08:35 PM
...Don't buy an airplane unless you need it FOR BUSINESS.
Incorrect. Don't buy an airplane unless:
a) you actually want it and
b) you can actually afford it and I mean actually afford it after looking at actual costs and
c) its actual capabilities are suitable for 95% of your actual missions.
I think he'd been happier in retrospect with his Hawker or maybe even an Excel even though I was warned to stay away by several Excel folks from the make and secondly the model.Interesting. The Excel is a great airplane for hauling one guy for a couple of hours.
...most airplanes I saw purchased were an emotional purchase they thought they could afford off the "business" tax deduction but it was really intended for personal use and they didn't really think about operating costs so they then attempted to shoehorn the airplane into their budget and when that didn't work it was time to supplement costs with charter and uh oh that tax deduction isn't going to happen like they thought and the whole thing failed miserably and they couldn't sell it. Painfully long sentence for a long painful process.
Sounds like you've watched some pretty crappy due diligence take place.

forgot to bid
07-08-2011, 09:01 PM
Incorrect. Don't buy an airplane unless:
a) you actually want it and
b) you can actually afford it and I mean actually afford it after looking at actual costs and
c) its actual capabilities are suitable for 95% of your actual missions.
Interesting. The Excel is a great airplane for hauling one guy for a couple of hours.

Sounds like you've watched some pretty crappy due diligence take place.

Tis true you shouldn't buy unless you want it and can afford it, I say business because a lot of people buy them wanting that tax deduction but they will barely ever use it for business and thus never qualify for the deductions.

I did watch a lot go down. You'd think on that level and with that kind of money there would be a lot more due diligence involved. I saw a ton of emotional decisions. I was surprised.

I've sat in an Excel, thought it was a nice airplane. Comfortable in the back. Tall Citation, what's not to like? It fit my boss' mission profile perfectly and he could have chartered it out to NetJets via EJM very easily as a 1:1 fill in. But I was warned off of it by three operators. For better or for worse they complained bitterly about the airplanes not holding up and all of them owned them from new. Don't know anything else about the Excel other than stats and statistics I might read in BCA.

satpak77
07-09-2011, 12:24 PM
Guys I understand all the "unless you can afford it talk" but a wealthy, successful, small business owner told me this about his Baron.

I asked "why did you buy it" and the answer was basically "if you run the numbers, it makes no financial sense. But it improves my QOL and makes me happier. Is it cheaper to fly XXX airlines ? Yes. Can I afford the Baron? Yes, I can afford it. Should I afford it? Probably not. But it makes me happier."

How many of you guys, in the small-medium sized entrepreneur sector (I don't mean Warren Buffett), see this type of attitude.

In addition, the fact that the 350 was "overdoing it" was kinda of tossed around. But how much per hour, operating cost, is different between a 350 and a 200. I mean, really. Purchase price ? OK, a 2011 Proline 350, I agree, that will set you back. But a 2003 350 and a 2003 200, if you want the proper plane for the mission, and the damn thing is financed / tax write offs involved / business deductions /etc, I don't see why a 350 shouldn't be purchased. We are not talking "200 or a G-550, which should I buy"

Just some thoughts....

mswmsw
07-10-2011, 10:05 PM
Since this thread was started by Stunami back in January 2011, I guess the real question that all us enquiring mimes want to know is.......... so, what did you get?

legacydrvr
07-30-2011, 05:35 AM
the real answer is if your boss can afford two of the airplanes he wants to get then he can afford it