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View Full Version : DC-3 with low timers


jsfBoat
02-19-2011, 05:08 AM
Any companies that are operating round engines, DC-3s, Loadstars, C-46s, that are hiring low timers? I'm at 600 with 35 multi and some tail wheel time as well.


clipperskipper
02-19-2011, 08:56 AM
Everts Alaska operates the DC-6 and C-46 flying fuel, however I'm not sure of their requirements. They are looking for a DC-9 mechanic, this may give you some idea of
which direction they are heading.

2bennySODC6
04-24-2011, 11:23 PM
If your interested in flying C-46's, then email a resume to evertsair.com. It will show a link to the C.P.s email. Yes, we are moving into the DC-9 (five purchased) but the radials will continue to bark for the next six years or so. Good luck .....


jgdeleon09
04-25-2011, 04:22 PM
What are the mins there?

VanDriver208
04-25-2011, 05:06 PM
I am curious about this as well...I spent last summer flying in Southeast AK and would love to get back up there flying some bigger equipment. It would be nice to get a little time in radials before they are gone forever.

jsfBoat
04-26-2011, 06:59 PM
Never did see the CP's email, nor the link. I'm still looking, but if you can help out, I'd appreciate it.

SkyHigh
04-27-2011, 06:46 AM
Flying radial engines is fun and all but really does not help the career progression to the airlines all that much. You might as well be getting SIC in a piper sencia. True it is better than instructing but people get stuck there thinking that PIC in a DC-6 is going to get you on with SWA and it will not.

The airlines want part 121 jet pic. I would not waste your time here.

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR
04-27-2011, 06:56 AM
Flying radial engines is fun and all but really does not help the career progression to the airlines all that much. You might as well be getting SIC in a piper sencia. True it is better than instructing but people get stuck there thinking that PIC in a DC-6 is going to get you on with SWA and it will not.

The airlines want part 121 jet pic. I would not waste your time here.

Skyhigh
I know you can't help it, but maybe this person loves aviation in general and would like to have certain experiences in line with what makes them happy.
Just MAYBE not everything has to be geared toward a certain goal Sky.
They always say to enjoy life because it is so short.

USMCFLYR

SkyHigh
04-27-2011, 07:26 AM
I know you can't help it, but maybe this person loves aviation in general and would like to have certain experiences in line with what makes them happy.
Just MAYBE not everything has to be geared toward a certain goal Sky.
They always say to enjoy life because it is so short.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

I hope that is the case. Sometimes people don't know what they are getting into in regards to the career benefits one job offers over another. In this case I hope that an airline bound new pilot does not waste time on a dead end as I did bush flying.

If APC had existed when I was starting out perhaps others would have helped me to avoid many of the mistakes I made.

Skyhigh

Twin Wasp
04-27-2011, 08:40 AM
I can only think of three Three operators. There's a Super Three that runs the islands in Honolulu and there's a Three at LAX that goes out to Catalina Island. And there's a company south of Dallas that uses a couple for survey work. There were some used to spray the Gulf oil spill but I can't remember if they were turbos or not and don't know the operator.

FlyJSH
04-27-2011, 03:24 PM
USMCFLYR,

I hope that is the case. Sometimes people don't know what they are getting into in regards to the career benefits one job offers over another. In this case I hope that an airline bound new pilot does not waste time on a dead end as I did bush flying.

If APC had existed when I was starting out perhaps others would have helped me to avoid many of the mistakes I made.

Skyhigh

Sounds like you are describing yourself.

USMCFLYR
04-27-2011, 06:08 PM
USMCFLYR,

I hope that is the case. Sometimes people don't know what they are getting into in regards to the career benefits one job offers over another. In this case I hope that an airline bound new pilot does not waste time on a dead end as I did bush flying.

If APC had existed when I was starting out perhaps others would have helped me to avoid many of the mistakes I made.

Skyhigh
And still you can't admit that someone just may want to fly big radials for the pure joy of the experience.
Believe my Sky, I wish APC had been around for you too! :D

USMCFLYR

Airhoss
04-27-2011, 08:35 PM
Flying radial engines is fun and all but really does not help the career progression to the airlines all that much. You might as well be getting SIC in a piper sencia. True it is better than instructing but people get stuck there thinking that PIC in a DC-6 is going to get you on with SWA and it will not.

So says the guy who never got the chance to prove his theory. And that is just exactly what 95% of your jewels of "wisdom" are because you have never been here. You know Sky maybe if you would have worried less about the "right" kind of time and little more about enjoying what you were doing at the moment you might have been successful in your single minded narrow viewed quest to fly for a major airline.

I am typed and have a bit of time in the L-18 Lodestar. My advice is do it while you still can, do not turn down an opportunity to fly the last of the great flying machines. Jets will always be here. Heavy working radial engines airplanes are endangered and soon to be an extinct breed.


I can't think of a major airline that I've interviewed with where the pilot in the room wasn't extremely interested to hear about my Alaska time and in particular my round engine time.

BTW Sky I've interviewed at two majors and one large jet cargo outfit and was hired by all three of them. So my advice isn't in theory only like yours. So while heavy recip time isn't going to put you ahead on the computerized application sheet it sure as heck makes for a good conversation piece in the interview. These guys like to see one come through every now and then who isn't straight up cookie cutter material it breaks up the monotony.

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 06:06 AM
Here is my point. Flying is the bush is "neat". DC6 time is kind of "cool". However there is not even a place to record those experiences in most airline pilot applications.

The HR lady does not care about your fun connection to aviations past. The computer who scans the application does not care how cool a DC6 is. It all just goes into the total time column as if it were touch and goes in a 172. There is not a place to record such vivid and broad experiences because the airlines don't care about it.

All they want to see is part 121 jet PIC. Anything that detracts from that path is seen as a negative no matter how cool or fun.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 06:24 AM
Sounds like you are describing yourself.

Yes. I have a background of interesting, fun and cool aviation experiences. I flew the Alaskan bush, smokejumpers for the forest service and air ambulance among plenty of other things. I can tell you that none of that trumps a 26 year old who has only ever seen the inside of a regional jet.

I was always hearing "wow you have got as lot of good experience" from captains I would meet. Good for what I could never figure out, because it never helped me to get a job anywhere that mattered.

I could pick up the phone right now and get a half a dozen jobs flying taildraggers or some other crazy risky fringe job but my resume of aviation experience bares no weight at the legacy airlines.

It all was a waste of time and a detractor to my ultimate goals. HR departments do not appreciate a broad background of different aviation experiences. All they care about is young airline jet captain success.

The guys who I flew the bush with pull wire or sit at desks today.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 06:27 AM
So says the guy who never got the chance to prove his theory. And that is just exactly what 95% of your jewels of "wisdom" are because you have never been here. You know Sky maybe if you would have worried less about the "right" kind of time and little more about enjoying what you were doing at the moment you might have been successful in your single minded narrow viewed quest to fly for a major airline.

I am typed and have a bit of time in the L-18 Lodestar. My advice is do it while you still can, do not turn down an opportunity to fly the last of the great flying machines. Jets will always be here. Heavy working radial engines airplanes are endangered and soon to be an extinct breed.


I can't think of a major airline that I've interviewed with where the pilot in the room wasn't extremely interested to hear about my Alaska time and in particular my round engine time.

BTW Sky I've interviewed at two majors and one large jet cargo outfit and was hired by all three of them. So my advice isn't in theory only like yours. So while heavy recip time isn't going to put you ahead on the computerized application sheet it sure as heck makes for a good conversation piece in the interview. These guys like to see one come through every now and then who isn't straight up cookie cutter material it breaks up the monotony.

Hoss,

You also last interviewed a few decades ago. Try to get hired today with DC6 time. There is not even a place to put it in most airline applications.

Besides if it is so good then get me hired at a legacy. I have got 185, Beaver, Islander and Casa time. I can tell you now though that regionals, legacy and LCC.s don't care about that stuff.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 06:39 AM
And still you can't admit that someone just may want to fly big radials for the pure joy of the experience.
Believe my Sky, I wish APC had been around for you too! :D

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

Fly for fun?

I know that there are millionaire sons out there who only care about the "experience" and that is great. However it is my belief that after spending a small fortune on college and flight training most here have a specific goal.

This forum is called Airline Pilot Central after all. ;)

Skyhigh

DeadHead
04-28-2011, 06:49 AM
USMCFLYR,

If APC had existed when I was starting out perhaps others would have helped me to avoid many of the mistakes I made.

Skyhigh


With your pessimistic, pi$$-poor, negative, defeatist attitude, I am sure you still would have made the same mistakes.

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 06:56 AM
With your pessimistic, pi$$-poor, negative, defeatist attitude, I am sure you still would have made the same mistakes.

I was not born this way. At one time I too was a bright eyed new pilot who loved everything aviation. Experience is what lead me to the opinions I hold today. I do not feel that it is a fair and equitable place for most. You stay blindly positive on aviation and in 20 years we will see what that gets you. ;)

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 07:10 AM
Another element about fringe flying is that once you are established it is very difficult to start over in another area of aviation.

Pilots advance largely on the contacts they make as they climb the ladder. I lived in various huts in rural Alaska for years. The rich tapestry of contacts that I made there did not advance to American Airlines. Some are still there. Most quit flying because they could not find a good flying job outside of the bush and a few died in plane crashes.

Once established in one area a pilot usually has to start completely over at the bottom in a new one as with the regionals. As we get older it becomes more costly to make the transition. I spent an hour on the phone one night with a 40 YO DC6 captain who was stuck in his position. There was no job he could get in then lower 48 that offered even half the pay. He should have left years prior. By then it was too late.

Bush flying jobs lead to more bush flying jobs. DC6 time only holds value to other radial engine operators. Before you know it your short diversion into the fringe could become an unwanted life and career. Not good.

Skyhigh

FlyJSH
04-28-2011, 07:49 AM
Here is my point. Flying is the bush is "neat". DC6 time is kind of "cool". However there is not even a place to record those experiences in most airline pilot applications.

The HR lady does not care about your fun connection to aviations past. The computer who scans the application does not care how cool a DC6 is. It all just goes into the total time column as if it were touch and goes in a 172. There is not a place to record such vivid and broad experiences because the airlines don't care about it.

All they want to see is part 121 jet PIC. Anything that detracts from that path is seen as a negative no matter how cool or fun.

Skyhigh

Boy, I really do feel sorry for you.

There are some of us who would love to fly the gooney-bird: an airplane that, not only still flies, but is economically viable 75 years after it entered service. A plane drawn on a drafting table based on calculations done on a slide rule. Flying one of those ol' girls is almost like serving on Old Ironsides. Well, if you don't get it, there is no way I can explain it.

Putting all that aside, let's talk about getting that dream job with your dream mainline....

There are several thousand regional pilots with 1000+ TPIC in 50+ seaters. Add maybe another thousand with similar time flying larger TPs. But there are only a couple hundred who have flown any of the classic workhorses.

So, now you and I and 18 other folks are sitting in the Continental interview room. Who do you think will peak the attention of the Pilot interviewer? Consider these questions:

"What did you do before coming here?"

-"I flew a 50 seat barbie jets from class B and C airports"

vs.

-"My first real job was in a DC 3. I started in the right seat and moved to the left seat about a year later. We hauled mostly show goats and pot belly pigs. The neat thing is, that plane, N-----, originally NC----, entered service with Essair which changed it's name to Pioneer Airlines which, of course, merged with Continental in 1953."


"TMAAT you had an emergency."

- "Well, one day we had both generators fail and had to hand fly an ILS using only standby instruments."

vs.

- "Weelll, one day setting climb power, we had an engine start clanging around, making one heck of a racket. The engine was still making power, so I chose to leave it running. After we declared and were on vectors to final, I realized I might want to reconsider shutting down the engine. You see, we had one piston seize. It tore the jug out of the block and after a couple minutes the rod failed and the jug flew right out the cowl flaps."

Airhoss
04-28-2011, 08:30 AM
Skyhigh,

When the airlines crank up and start a wave of hiring here in the not to distant future I'll make you a little wager. That is even you Mr. Pessimistic downer dude will be able to get an interview at a major airline.

When they are hiring they are hiring when they aren't they aren't.

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 09:30 AM
Skyhigh,

When the airlines crank up and start a wave of hiring here in the not to distant future I'll make you a little wager. That is even you Mr. Pessimistic downer dude will be able to get an interview at a major airline.

When they are hiring they are hiring when they aren't they aren't.

Airhoss,

I would be happy to put my foot in my mouth if I could get a worthwhile job as a pilot in the airlines. In fact I have a standing offer to publicly humiliate myself here for the one who can get me a good job with one of the better well known companies.

I sincerely hope you will win this wager. :)

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 09:40 AM
I have my share of aviation stories but they don't help to get hired at the majors.

The airlines want corporate hardened airline automations who have already proven their devotion to the profession thorough a decade or more of mind numbing line flying.

HR ladies want to see a predicable and swift progression from college graduation to left seat in an RJ prior to 30 years if age. They don't care about your summer flying skydivers or that you had fun in the Alaskan bush in a DC6.

If anything it serves as more of a distraction. The question is then inevitably asked "why didn't you go straight to a regional"? "Is there something in your background that we missed"? People who want to fly for the airlines fly for the airlines. They don't take personal diversions as a crop duster or to fly floats.

Free spirits like that most often are not rewarded.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-28-2011, 09:46 AM
Boy, I really do feel sorry for you.

There are some of us who would love to fly the gooney-bird: an airplane that, not only still flies, but is economically viable 75 years after it entered service. A plane drawn on a drafting table based on calculations done on a slide rule. Flying one of those ol' girls is almost like serving on Old Ironsides. Well, if you don't get it, there is no way I can explain it.

Putting all that aside, let's talk about getting that dream job with your dream mainline....

There are several thousand regional pilots with 1000+ TPIC in 50+ seaters. Add maybe another thousand with similar time flying larger TPs. But there are only a couple hundred who have flown any of the classic workhorses.

So, now you and I and 18 other folks are sitting in the Continental interview room. Who do you think will peak the attention of the Pilot interviewer? Consider these questions:

"What did you do before coming here?"

-"I flew a 50 seat barbie jets from class B and C airports"

vs.

-"My first real job was in a DC 3. I started in the right seat and moved to the left seat about a year later. We hauled mostly show goats and pot belly pigs. The neat thing is, that plane, N-----, originally NC----, entered service with Essair which changed it's name to Pioneer Airlines which, of course, merged with Continental in 1953."


"TMAAT you had an emergency."

- "Well, one day we had both generators fail and had to hand fly an ILS using only standby instruments."

vs.

- "Weelll, one day setting climb power, we had an engine start clanging around, making one heck of a racket. The engine was still making power, so I chose to leave it running. After we declared and were on vectors to final, I realized I might want to reconsider shutting down the engine. You see, we had one piston seize. It tore the jug out of the block and after a couple minutes the rod failed and the jug flew right out the cowl flaps."

Flyjsh,

Fun is one thing and career building another. At one time I enjoyed flying old planes too. I spent a few summers in a DeHallviland Beaver. As far as I know SWA does not have a place to record float time. They also do not give extra credit for having experience with round engines unless it burns jet fuel. All that stuff goes into the total time column and holds the same value as if you were flying circles in a 152 that entire time.

In regards to getting a good airline job it is pretty much meaningless to have old plane experience.

Skyhigh

Airhoss
04-28-2011, 01:21 PM
In fact I have a standing offer to publicly humiliate myself here for the one who can get me a good job with one of the better well known companies.

And there my friend is where and why YOU keep falling down. I can't get YOU a job anywhere you have to get you a job. All contacts can do for you is open a few doors, you have to walk through them and take the bull by the horns.

BTW

Several of my very good friends were DC-6/7 captains in AK who went straight from there to various Majors including America West, Fed Ex, and Cathay Pacific. Your analogy of the 40 year old DC-6 in AK captain is flawed and strife with defeatist rhetoric. Anybody who wants to bad enough can change their current situation. It's a matter of desire and drive. You are talking to somebody who has moved out of the bush flying arena, the firefighting arena, the corporate arena, and the Non sched heavy jet arena before making it to the majors.

I could have allowed myself to get stuck at any one of them. I choose not to. And I did it at EXACTLY the same time frame that you were trying to do it. So don't give me your "that was decades ago BS." A defeatist will always be defeated because he doesn't know how to win.

I've been trying to help you know for several years and as always you simply plug your ears and start yelling "NAH NAH NAH NAH" the moment I do. My advice is free I've offered it, it's your to do with as you choose.:)

clipperskipper
04-28-2011, 02:19 PM
Turbine experience matters today since most equipment is, well turbine. I do know a sh!tload of PBA DC-3 guys and gals who went straight to legacies, SWA, etc, and some who went sideways to other regionals. The biggest factor right now is recency of experience.

awacs
04-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Gentleman,

I can relay one true DC-3 story. I worked for Miami Valley Aviation and DID fly the the DC-3. My friend was called in to interview for a major cargo carrier: did great but did not get the job! Reason? They were afraid he would not pass the training.

He did very well in the end. He was able to go from the DC-3 to the Lear jet and then went back and was hired at the same cargo company. I had just the same luck. I was able to go from the DC-3 to the Lear, and later to the A320. Sometimes looking back; even I don't believe that I did it!

AWACS

Airhoss
04-28-2011, 03:36 PM
My first "fast mover" was a -10 powered Merlin III it was about 100 knots faster in cruise than anything I'd flown before and it was all single pilot. Cruise isn't what messes you up it's adjusting to the timing below 10K at 250 KIAS and transitioning to approaches happens a lot quicker but once you get properly ahead of the thing it boils down to basic flying skills and in particular basic attitude instrument flying. If you've got a good solid scan the rest of it all falls into place.

My first jet was a DC-8 and I found that thing relaxingly simple to fly after coming out of flying the Merlin single pilot. The work load was about half. During initial we had a guy who was flying DC-3's for Four Star down in Puerto Rico he was my sim partner until he busted out. His problem wasn't the speed his problem was that his instrument skills were horrible. He'd just spent WAY to much time flying VFR. Most guys who have trouble transitioning to jets have some basic instrument attitude flying issues. That's what I've noticed over the years anyway. Because a Jet takes a more aggressive scan simply because they do things faster and in particular the tiniest amount of pitch change equals much larger rates of vertical deviation than most straight winged TP and Recip guys are used to.

One thing I remembered the old timers telling me, the guys who had transitioned from large piston bird to jets at their airlines in the day was that the VSI was your life make sure you look at it twice as often as you used to. Pretty sage advice for a guy transitioning from "those" to "these".

FlyJSH
04-28-2011, 04:22 PM
The airlines want corporate hardened airline automations who have already proven their devotion to the profession thorough a decade or more of mind numbing line flying.

.........

Free spirits like that most often are not rewarded.

Skyhigh

If all Mega Mainline Airlines want is automatons, and one wants to work there, then I guess you are correct. My question is why would anyone, especially a free spirit, want to work for such a company?

Being a "free spirit" does have consequences. Sailing around the world wastes valuable time and money: time better spent on a career, and money that could be invested for retirement.

But what grandkid wants to hear about how you locked in long term bonds making 15% way back when? For that matter, what memories do you want to have while rocking away your golden years?

I guess Frank said it best:
YouTube - Frank Sinatra, My Way, With Lyrics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E2hYDIFDIU)

jsfBoat
04-28-2011, 04:55 PM
Why do I want a DC-3 job? I'm a free spirit, I'd rather spend my time flying an airplane that isn't automated, an Airplane that my grandfather might have flown during the war or for Continental when he came back from theater. I love round engines, their sound and the smoke upon start up, and the fact that these airplanes have out lasted all the Airbus and Boeing airplanes in commercial service. As much as I want to go fly 747s with my dad at Kalitta, I'd be happier flying old airplanes with round engines. These airplanes are going extinct, and before they're all gone, I'd like to have a part in it. I apologize to everyone, didn't intent on starting a debate if DC-3 time is good for 121. Just was seeing if any operators of these birds will hire any pilots with 700TT and 50 multi so I can fly something I'm passionate about.

Hacker15e
04-28-2011, 09:38 PM
Been watching 'Ice Pilots', eh?

2bennySODC6
04-28-2011, 10:20 PM
Never did see the CP's email, nor the link. I'm still looking, but if you can help out, I'd appreciate it.

Sorry, I've been away from APC for a couple of days. The C.P. is Jeremy Erickson and he can be reached by phone at 907-243-0009. His email is jerickson@evertsair.com. :)

2bennySODC6
04-28-2011, 10:29 PM
Flying radial engines is fun and all but really does not help the career progression to the airlines all that much. You might as well be getting SIC in a piper sencia. True it is better than instructing but people get stuck there thinking that PIC in a DC-6 is going to get you on with SWA and it will not.

The airlines want part 121 jet pic. I would not waste your time here.

Skyhigh

It wouldn't be that big of a waste, we just took a bunch of DC-6 CPT's, F.O's, and F.E.'s into the 5 DC-9's we have on our 121 certificate. If you want to fly a turbo prop or turbo jet, bid it.:cool:

SkyHigh
04-29-2011, 06:24 AM
If all Mega Mainline Airlines want is automatons, and one wants to work there, then I guess you are correct. My question is why would anyone, especially a free spirit, want to work for such a company?

Being a "free spirit" does have consequences. Sailing around the world wastes valuable time and money: time better spent on a career, and money that could be invested for retirement.

But what grandkid wants to hear about how you locked in long term bonds making 15% way back when? For that matter, what memories do you want to have while rocking away your golden years?

I guess Frank said it best:
YouTube - Frank Sinatra, My Way, With Lyrics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E2hYDIFDIU)

FlyJSH,

It is not my rules. If it was up to me UAL and the rest would hold bush flying and DC-6 skills over all else but they do not. My friends and I were passed over for those who were able to go straight to an autopilot.

My point is that if you want an adventure go fly a DC-6 but if you want a career skip all that silliness and go straight to a regional jet as fast as you can.

I would gladly trade all those wasted years for 15 years of seniority at a legacy airline. I went into aviation because I wanted a career but got an adventure instead. Adventures make for good wall hangings and stories but they do not pay the bills.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-29-2011, 06:35 AM
And there my friend is where and why YOU keep falling down. I can't get YOU a job anywhere you have to get you a job. All contacts can do for you is open a few doors, you have to walk through them and take the bull by the horns.

BTW

Several of my very good friends were DC-6/7 captains in AK who went straight from there to various Majors including America West, Fed Ex, and Cathay Pacific. Your analogy of the 40 year old DC-6 in AK captain is flawed and strife with defeatist rhetoric. Anybody who wants to bad enough can change their current situation. It's a matter of desire and drive. You are talking to somebody who has moved out of the bush flying arena, the firefighting arena, the corporate arena, and the Non sched heavy jet arena before making it to the majors.

I could have allowed myself to get stuck at any one of them. I choose not to. And I did it at EXACTLY the same time frame that you were trying to do it. So don't give me your "that was decades ago BS." A defeatist will always be defeated because he doesn't know how to win.

I've been trying to help you know for several years and as always you simply plug your ears and start yelling "NAH NAH NAH NAH" the moment I do. My advice is free I've offered it, it's your to do with as you choose.:)

Airhoss,

You know that I appreciate all that you do for me but you have to admit that you are living in the past. UAL does not care at all about DC6 time today. It is up to me to apply for the job but it is up to you to change the hiring preferences of your company. Broaden what your company will accept as suitable experience from only considering jet and turbine PIC.

Aside from that I am not a defeatist. I am more of an analyst. Some like to use the mantra of holding a blindly optimistic view about all things aviation as being holy. Try that in the stock market and you will loose your shorts.

I have read your posts in other areas of this forum and they are not so rosy. You have predicted a hiring boom for me so I will wager that in 15 years or less legacy airlines will be half their current size or gone altogether and USA wide body captain wages will top out at 85K in current value.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-29-2011, 06:45 AM
Why do I want a DC-3 job? I'm a free spirit, I'd rather spend my time flying an airplane that isn't automated, an Airplane that my grandfather might have flown during the war or for Continental when he came back from theater. I love round engines, their sound and the smoke upon start up, and the fact that these airplanes have out lasted all the Airbus and Boeing airplanes in commercial service. As much as I want to go fly 747s with my dad at Kalitta, I'd be happier flying old airplanes with round engines. These airplanes are going extinct, and before they're all gone, I'd like to have a part in it. I apologize to everyone, didn't intent on starting a debate if DC-3 time is good for 121. Just was seeing if any operators of these birds will hire any pilots with 700TT and 50 multi so I can fly something I'm passionate about.

jsfboat,

I have read your other posts here and you seemed to be airline driven. Your profile has a 747 in it after all. All I am saying is that piston twin time does not hold all that much value to the rest of aviation anymore. A few hundred hours would not hurt but spend 10 years in a DC6 and you might as well have spent them playing XBox and smoking pot on your parents couch in regards to the legacy airlines and other jet operators.

You would have to start all over again as a regional FO and spend another ten years climbing that ladder. Besides all that you most likely would have to spend a year or more as a flight engineer before they would let you touch the controls. It is not worth it. Don't let yourself become distracted.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-29-2011, 06:49 AM
It wouldn't be that big of a waste, we just took a bunch of DC-6 CPT's, F.O's, and F.E.'s into the 5 DC-9's we have on our 121 certificate. If you want to fly a turbo prop or turbo jet, bid it.:cool:

That is great but how long would it take for a 25 year old to work their way to the left seat in a DC-9 at Everets? At a regional it might only take a few years to make it to the left seat in a part 121 modern glass turbine or jet.

Skyhigh

Pielut
04-29-2011, 07:31 AM
Sky, just a broken record man. Does it give you some kind of sick joy to just p*** on everyone who seems to be happy flying. You have some deep issues that you might need to talk to a therapist about or get some "happy pills". I left the 121 world by choice a few years back, it was best for me. Nobody is going to "give" you a job you have go get it yourself. If you had some recent experience you probably could get hired many different places. Also, there are some rich daddy pilots out there, but not that many, most people don't have these great contacts that you always refer to. Resentment about not making it will ruin your life. I also would not consider you to be an analyst, there is no objectivity with you, nothing anger but about not making to your goal.

USMCFLYR
04-29-2011, 02:18 PM
USMCFLYR,

Fly for fun?

I know that there are millionaire sons out there who only care about the "experience" and that is great. However it is my belief that after spending a small fortune on college and flight training most here have a specific goal.

This forum is called Airline Pilot Central after all. ;)

Skyhigh
Yes - and some want to fly for fun.
Imagine that????

Have you ever thought, with all of the discussions here and some of your own stories (like the CA and his friends in Alaska who you say wouldn't give you the time of day), that there might be something else besides your aviation experience holding you back? :rolleyes:

Sorry - there are all kinds here and it seem to be what the bosses want.
Maybe you could start your own forum and have a little more control over the content?

Airhoss said it all - it made for great conversation fodder at his interviews. It certainly has a place.
There is no special line for a majority of my time either, but it came up in my interviews and is a topic of conversation with every person I fly with so far.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR
04-29-2011, 02:33 PM
UAL does not care at all about DC6 time today.
How do you know this to be true? When did you last interview with a -121?
For every story that you share about a failure, Airhoss (and others) have shared a success story?
Why should someone think you story holds more value than others?

Aside from that I am not a defeatist. I am more of an analyst. Some like to use the mantra of holding a blindly optimistic view about all things aviation as being holy. Try that in the stock market and you will loose your shorts.
And pure pessimists hide their money in the mattress. Neither is a good idea, but you hold to your one-sided mantra with a death grip.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR
04-29-2011, 02:36 PM
A few hundred hours would not hurt but spend 10 years in a DC6 and you might as well have spent them playing XBox and smoking pot on your parents couch in regards to the legacy airlines and other jet operators.
Well jsf - do got that out of him.
I must have missed it in your posts where you said that your plan was too spend 10 years flying radials. My reading comprehension led me down the path that this was an experience that you wished to have, not necessarily make a career out of it - but then who knows? ;)

USMCFLYR

SkyHigh
04-30-2011, 07:15 AM
Yes - and some want to fly for fun.
Imagine that????

Have you ever thought, with all of the discussions here and some of your own stories (like the CA and his friends in Alaska who you say wouldn't give you the time of day), that there might be something else besides your aviation experience holding you back? :rolleyes:

Sorry - there are all kinds here and it seem to be what the bosses want.
Maybe you could start your own forum and have a little more control over the content?

Airhoss said it all - it made for great conversation fodder at his interviews. It certainly has a place.
There is no special line for a majority of my time either, but it came up in my interviews and is a topic of conversation with every person I fly with so far.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

You will not even make it to the interview if you have wasted years in unproductive flying. That is my point. Aviation is very competitive. Any distraction could be enough to knock you out of the race. A pilot should focus on the shortest path.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-30-2011, 07:16 AM
.
Well jsf - do got that out of him.
I must have missed it in your posts where you said that your plan was too spend 10 years flying radials. My reading comprehension led me down the path that this was an experience that you wished to have, not necessarily make a career out of it - but then who knows? ;)

USMCFLYR

I was referring to a previous point I made regarding how side tracks and become major diversions.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-30-2011, 07:20 AM
How do you know this to be true? When did you last interview with a -121?
For every story that you share about a failure, Airhoss (and others) have shared a success story?
Why should someone think you story holds more value than others?


And pure pessimists hide their money in the mattress. Neither is a good idea, but you hold to your one-sided mantra with a death grip.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

It has been a while since I or anyone else for that matter has filled out a pilot application to UAL but lets ask.

HEY UAL guys !! Where does a pilot record their DC-6 time?? What about DeHallviland Beaver Experience? Do you have a special regard for it at all?

It might make for fun conversation in the interview but the odds are that you would not even make it that far since the computer HR machine would have screened you out long before your application even made it to human eyes.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-30-2011, 07:29 AM
The following is a story I wrote for APC many years ago, but it has the DC-3 and UAL in it.

I can remember vividly sitting in class as a college sophomore in 1987. My chosen major was Flight Tech and often the head of the program would walk in and interrupt class to introduce an unexpected guest. Periodically past graduates would stop by and update their progress, and it was common to halt class so we all could benefit from listening to good fortune stories told by alumni who had hardly been out of school two to three years. I remember one fellow who even wore his uniform into class. He was a new hire for TWA and happened to have it in the car and so he dressed for the occasion. Back then there were few commuter airlines and the regionals didn’t exist. It was common for pilots with barely 2000 hours to get hired strait into the majors since there really wasn’t anything else available at the time. During the 80’s United Airlines had strict requirements for hopeful applicants, 250 hours total time in airplanes and a Commercial Multi-engine license. The rest had similar requirements to apply.

We all knew that most would not be hired without considerable experience beyond the minimums but occasionally some were hired. One day a well dressed woman entered class and tapped a fellow student in the shoulder. She got up, took her books and we never saw her again. Later we discovered that she was hired by United Airlines and didn’t even finish her degree. She had flown a DC-3 the previous summer and had over 500 hours of total time - a hot prospect in those days. My personal mentor was a guy from the old neighborhood who was about six years older than me, and I watched him progress from towing gliders at the local airport to flying as an Alaska bush pilot. At 1200 hours he was hired by Cascade Airlines to fly a Cessna 402 around the state of Washington. Like clock work once he reached 2200 hours of total time and 1000 hours of piston multi engine pilot in command time he was hired by Alaska Airlines.

Throughout the years, pilot minimums have slowly crept up. United eventually bumped up to 500 hour minimum and eventually added a $25 application fee. In 1995 Alaska Airlines moved to a 750 hour piston multi engine minimum with a college degree was preferred. I knew well what these companies were doing since I spent countless hours pecking away at an old type writer on seven page applications and filling in bubbles with a number two pencil. In the late 1990’s the regionals had arrived and turbine time first appeared on the growing list of employer expectations. My first run in with it was a 500 hour turbine minimum on a FedEx application. Not PIC just 500 hours in any turbine plane as captain or first officer. Southwest Airlines broke with tradition and as everyone knows requires a 737 type rating. As time goes by the bar for being blessed with the privilege of having your information glanced at before being sent to the round file - keeps moving upwards. The country today is saturated with regionals, commuters, turbine cargo airlines and executive jet time share companies. There is a growing sea of highly experienced pilots that are eager to move on to the next level. Airlines don’t really need so much experience, but have to limit the landslide of paper somehow, so the requirements keep rising.

Recently the chief pilot of Alaska Airlines announced a new level of entry requirements. From what I read it seems that the company now will be discounting any turbine time in aircraft under 12,500 pounds gross weight. Those of you with Alaska Airlines aspirations might be wasting your time breaking in a left seat in a Kingair, Turbine Commander or similar category aircraft. It would follow that the next step will be to eliminate flight experience in smaller turbine planes all together. Apparently employers are in an enviable position of custom ordering applicants they wish to put on file.
It takes many more years of experience to reach these increasing minimums. The average age for new hires at the majors has risen from the mid-twenties to upper thirties and perhaps now low forties. My generation was hired long before the 1000 hour PIC requirement. Many who have invested the last seven years or so in the right seat at a major airline and are now are furloughed are worthless on the job market. The only choice that they have is to get in line at a growing regional airline and hope that they reach marketability before they are too old.

In the near future I expect to see other hiring airlines to follow suit. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 2000 hour turbine 121 PIC requirement soon. Perhaps only Captain Regional Jet time will be on the good list. The question begs to be asked “how can one combat these rapidly changing minimums”? How can a pilot predict the future and have time enough to prepare for it? The only solution I can reach is to shoot for the moon and hope you are in fashion when your time comes. The best clue to the future rests in studying the past. Expectations should be set for a long road. Pilots need to decide for themselves what that future will hold and prepare accordingly.


Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-30-2011, 08:15 AM
The following is another UAL related bush flying story I wrote for APC a few years back. I think it relates to the thread discussion.


In the early 1990’s I was a 20 something know nothing kid who was employed as an Alaskan part 135 single engine captain of the tundra. My mission that day was to fly up to a small village and meet a small party for a commanded scenic flight. Scenic flights were rare in the bush since you can’t even go to the dentist without taking an airplane ride so I was intrigued and looking foreword to it.

On the ramp stood four stoic figures who were staying at a local fishing lodge and wanted to see more of the area. I taxied up being careful not to blast them with dirt, and introduced myself. The oldest promptly projected him self and announced his name quickly followed by his title as a United Airlines Captain the second and third then did the same in similar style. They were all from a legacy of United Airlines hierarchy and carried themselves with the reserved poise of English royalty. The introductions were brief and I was stunned you how young a few of these United Airlines pilot sons were. At the time I was one of the leaders in the industry from my college graduating class and my best was to Captain a Cessna 207 these guys were already First Officers in the 737 for UAL. I felt small by comparison. I mean what failure had I made to be so punished by my lowly position? But still I knew few better and none who wore a white shirt to work.

The eldest son gave a short list of attractions that they wished to view and I set to work instantly to fulfill their wishes. The weather was good and the season right to view many varieties of wildlife and I felt satisfied that I met the objective. After an hour and a half we were back at the runway on final. I expected there to be some seat shifting and groans from the back as I glided to the gravel threshold but instead there was calm silence. I made a special attempt to make a smooth landing witch can be difficult in a heavily loaded 207 with oversized tires. To my relief the reunion with the earth was indeed non eventful and I was able to hold my head high throughout taxi and shutdown.

Back on the ramp the grey haired Captain projected his right hand with a five dollar bill and a stern “thank you for the nice ride” throughout the flight I was able to determining from eavesdropping that he was also involved in hiring at United so I mustered my courage and asked him what he thought of my chances at UAL and what I should do to improve my resume. With a quick glance and one squinted eye he asked only one question of me “who do you know at United”? “No one” I answered, in fact they were the first pilots who I ever met from United Airlines. After a short pause he answered a quick sentence “Not now, Not ever” and then turned and walked away.

I was stunned as if shot through with a bear gun. It took a minute or two to recover from the immediate shock of impact that those words had on my sole. I couldn’t believe that after that near perfect flight he could so coldly assess my chances like that. I mean I was a good example of a healthy normal American kid who had perfect vision and a healthy love of aviation. How could he have known enough about me and my character in that 90 minute flight to be able to give such a harsh assessment of my young chances? Years later I was able to determine that he was trying to offer a kindness through a quick kill. My guess is that he determined that without a strong introduction form someone well placed on the inside that my chances were slim. I was another garden variety suburban boy who would be lost in the ocean of clawing faces unable to rise above the spawn in order to gain attention from the Human Resources Department. His words turned out to be prophetic. Not only did I never see the interview room at United Airlines but none of my coworkers in Alaska did either.

Skyhigh

NuthnFlashy
04-30-2011, 11:07 AM
Why do I want a DC-3 job? I'm a free spirit, I'd rather spend my time flying an airplane that isn't automated, an Airplane that my grandfather might have flown during the war or for Continental when he came back from theater. I love round engines, their sound and the smoke upon start up, and the fact that these airplanes have out lasted all the Airbus and Boeing airplanes in commercial service. As much as I want to go fly 747s with my dad at Kalitta, I'd be happier flying old airplanes with round engines. These airplanes are going extinct, and before they're all gone, I'd like to have a part in it. I apologize to everyone, didn't intent on starting a debate if DC-3 time is good for 121. Just was seeing if any operators of these birds will hire any pilots with 700TT and 50 multi so I can fly something I'm passionate about.

Go for it dude! I did ... and it is frankly some of my most cherished flying memories. A friend of mine that was part of the hiring group at SWA once told me that a logbook shouldn't read like a resume, it should read like a diary.

The type of flying that these old airplanes do is NOT for everyone and it's HARD WORK. Loading the airplane, working on it sometimes, fueling them, living in them ... and to do that you have to LOVE them. But when those twin rows are clattering away, spitting fire and burning oil ... there is no music more sweet. The growl of a REALLY big fan is cool it's true ... but soon grab the throttles from a time of leather and oil and you will dream about it years later. Live it for a while dude, then tell stories about it for a lifetime at 410.

FWIW I was hired in 1996 with 650TT flying an Navy R4D (Super DC-3). Her name was Patti and she crashed in FLL after I had moved on to flying other Goonies all which are either parked in the desert, crashed and one is in a museum. Having flown DC-3's never helped me get the jobs I've had flying jets all over the world ... but it does get me gigs flying warbirds for fun. For every person that is only concerned with their resume ... airplanes are not just stepping stones for everybody ... for some of us they are romances. Each and every one special and memorable. Some more than others.

USMCFLYR
04-30-2011, 11:37 AM
USMCFLYR,

You will not even make it to the interview if you have wasted years in unproductive flying. That is my point. Aviation is very competitive. Any distraction could be enough to knock you out of the race. A pilot should focus on the shortest path.

Skyhigh
No smelling of the roses along the way for you eh?
You have no data except for your own OPINION whether someone with DC-3 time will make it to an interview or not.
This is your negativism creeping out and infecting all aspects of aviation.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR
04-30-2011, 11:44 AM
USMCFLYR,

It has been a while since I or anyone else for that matter has filled out a pilot application to UAL but lets ask.

HEY UAL guys !! Where does a pilot record their DC-6 time?? What about DeHallviland Beaver Experience? Do you have a special regard for it at all?

It might make for fun conversation in the interview but the odds are that you would not even make it that far since the computer HR machine would have screened you out long before your application even made it to human eyes.

Skyhigh
Cute diversion Sly - but unsuccessful once again.
No one has said anything about having special columns anywhere for special time; so I'll go ahead and answer that non-question. None.
Satisfied with you bogus point of contention Sky? :rolleyes:

You still have not proven that a person with radial time won't make it to an interview. We are all waiting for proof of this concept and you provide nothing - as usual - in the way of anything other than negative opinions. Where do you get these "odds" you speak of?

You seem to assume that we are talking about someone applying to UAL with nothing other than the round engine to fill their resume. If this is your contention, I'm thinking many on here might agree with you, but I haven't taken this thread in such a manner. We are talking about someone adding such time to an already attractive resume and your thinking that this "side track" will derail them. That has already been proven a false notion by many on here who have done that exact thing.

USMCFLYR

SkyHigh
04-30-2011, 12:24 PM
Cute diversion Sly - but unsuccessful once again.
No one has said anything about having special columns anywhere for special time; so I'll go ahead and answer that non-question. None.
Satisfied with you bogus point of contention Sky? :rolleyes:

You still have not proven that a person with radial time won't make it to an interview. We are all waiting for proof of this concept and you provide nothing - as usual - in the way of anything other than negative opinions. Where do you get these "odds" you speak of?

You seem to assume that we are talking about someone applying to UAL with nothing other than the round engine to fill their resume. If this is your contention, I'm thinking many on here might agree with you, but I haven't taken this thread in such a manner. We are talking about someone adding such time to an already attractive resume and your thinking that this "side track" will derail them. That has already been proven a false notion by many on here who have done that exact thing.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR

People here have mentioned how in the past, as in the 1980's, piston multi engine time held some value to airline employers. Airlines list their minimums. It is not hard to check it out. Most legacy airlines today want 1000 hours of turbine pilot on command time just to apply. Part 121 jet PIC however is the most competitive.

These facts are self evident to most anyone who has even filled out an application with a major airline within the last 15 years. Most who are commenting here have not had to look for a job for some time now.

I personally have thousands of hours of part 135 piston multi-engine and single engine PIC and I can tell you that it is worthless to the legacy airlines. Jet or turbine part 121 is where it is at.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
04-30-2011, 12:43 PM
Cute diversion Sly - but unsuccessful once again.
No one has said anything about having special columns anywhere for special time; so I'll go ahead and answer that non-question. None.
Satisfied with you bogus point of contention Sky? :rolleyes:

You still have not proven that a person with radial time won't make it to an interview. We are all waiting for proof of this concept and you provide nothing - as usual - in the way of anything other than negative opinions. Where do you get these "odds" you speak of?

You seem to assume that we are talking about someone applying to UAL with nothing other than the round engine to fill their resume. If this is your contention, I'm thinking many on here might agree with you, but I haven't taken this thread in such a manner. We are talking about someone adding such time to an already attractive resume and your thinking that this "side track" will derail them. That has already been proven a false notion by many on here who have done that exact thing.

USMCFLYR

Yes, for starters this thread is in the "low time" section and the OP in this thread mentioned that he only has 700 hours. My point is that if someone wants a career in the airlines then they had better focus on things that will add to that goal. A better plan is to go straight to a regional. 700 hours is getting close to being enough to get on with an operator that flies turbine or jet glass paneled planes.

I consider myself to be an expert on these matters since I have spent much of the last 20 years studying hiring trends in this industry. Most here who have posted opposition to my posts have not had to find a job for sometime now. Nostalgia is great but it is not going to help someone who is trying to get a career off the ground.

Piston time only holds value to the point where one can get hired at a regional. 1500 total time and perhaps 200 multi-engine. Anything beyond that faces steeply diminishing returns. Anything fun like DC-6 time, Float time and taildraggers are neat but will not gain you any points over a few thousand hours in 121 turbine operations.

Skyhigh

Airhoss
04-30-2011, 01:47 PM
HEY UAL guys !! Where does a pilot record their DC-6 time?? What about DeHallviland Beaver Experience? Do you have a special regard for it at all?

No problem and easily answered.

On the scantron form they have several blocks for SIC or PIC time in A/C over a certain weight gross weight. One is for time A/C over 12.5 the other A/C over 50K. It doesn't ask what kind of motors they have on them.

Beaver time of course would be included in total time.

Hmmm question for you SH? Do you think my 777/ 320/737/757/767/DC-8 time would put me at the top of the heap for a DHC-2 float job up in Bristol bay?

You have to gain experience in the right type of equipment for the desired track obviously. That doesn't mean you can't do some other things along the way.


Once again you've soundly discounted my input covered your ears and screamed "NAH NAH NAH NAH". Dude I've been there and done that I am the guy you are describing in your posts as supposedly unhireable by the majors. You need to read and absorb a little more and type a little less.

Stop blaming line pilots at major airlines for your failure.

The Dominican
04-30-2011, 02:12 PM
All people ask me about in my recent interviews is about my radial engine time, nobody seems very interested in the check airman jet pic, but I do agree that having that experience as complement of your total resume is a talking point during an interview but only having that experience and low time to boot will hinder your chances at a job that is mostly focused on flying an automated flight deck. I do believe however that not having a strong back ground on basic hand flying jobs, wether it is flying checks in a queen air at night single pilot or flying a DC-3 around, will create a weak foundation for you to build your overall experience from.

HercDriver130
04-30-2011, 02:24 PM
Hey Sky.... I have 0 (ZERO) hours of part 121 PIC turbine time.... hell barely 1000 hours of PIC time in total... (in my defense i do have about 830 hours of PIC in USAF C-130's)... and I was just hired to fly 747s...... and with only 3600 hours ...AND having only flown 80 hours in the past 27 months...... Persistence.

clipperskipper
04-30-2011, 03:26 PM
You could log the DC-6 time under multi-engine for starters, or four engine time if you have a heading for that. Nothing wrong with tailwheel time in the DC-3 either, some log it as special time for lack of a proper heading. I threw the DHC-7 time under four engine turbine, good machine for a lot of TMAAT questions; RNAV STOL LASO approaches, Cat II ILS's, legal taxiway departures from PHL. Heck I fly a piston twin now, I don't think anyone rally gives a hoot.

SkyHigh
05-01-2011, 06:46 AM
Hey Sky.... I have 0 (ZERO) hours of part 121 PIC turbine time.... hell barely 1000 hours of PIC time in total... (in my defense i do have about 830 hours of PIC in USAF C-130's)... and I was just hired to fly 747s...... and with only 3600 hours ...AND having only flown 80 hours in the past 27 months...... Persistence.

Herc,

That is great! We are all very excited for you. However the issue here is if DC-6 time is an asset to getting hired flying for a legacy airline. My contention is that it is not.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
05-01-2011, 06:48 AM
All people ask me about in my recent interviews is about my radial engine time, nobody seems very interested in the check airman jet pic, but I do agree that having that experience as complement of your total resume is a talking point during an interview but only having that experience and low time to boot will hinder your chances at a job that is mostly focused on flying an automated flight deck. I do believe however that not having a strong back ground on basic hand flying jobs, wether it is flying checks in a queen air at night single pilot or flying a DC-3 around, will create a weak foundation for you to build your overall experience from.

DC-6 time might make for fun interview conversation but if you only flew a DC-6 and did not have any jet time it is unlikely that you would have even gotten the interview at a legacy airline in the first place since it is not they type of flying that modern airlines are interested in. Pilots yes HR departments no.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
05-01-2011, 07:04 AM
No problem and easily answered.

On the scantron form they have several blocks for SIC or PIC time in A/C over a certain weight gross weight. One is for time A/C over 12.5 the other A/C over 50K. It doesn't ask what kind of motors they have on them.

Beaver time of course would be included in total time.

Hmmm question for you SH? Do you think my 777/ 320/737/757/767/DC-8 time would put me at the top of the heap for a DHC-2 float job up in Bristol bay?

You have to gain experience in the right type of equipment for the desired track obviously. That doesn't mean you can't do some other things along the way.


Once again you've soundly discounted my input covered your ears and screamed "NAH NAH NAH NAH". Dude I've been there and done that I am the guy you are describing in your posts as supposedly unhireable by the majors. You need to read and absorb a little more and type a little less.

Stop blaming line pilots at major airlines for your failure.

Airhoss,

You bring up an interesting angle on this. Would a DC-6 airline (or Beaver Float operator) value heavy glass jet time? My answer is no. During my time in the bush we occasionally would get a resume from ex-military from a guy with all jet time who was looking for an adventure.

Needless to say they did not get hired. They did not have the background for the job. That is why I say in modern times if a pilot wants to be competitive they had better build time creating a resume that is suited for their goal. If that is as an airline pilot then go straight for the first turbine twin you can find and leave aside romantic thoughts of flying old radial planes, floats or taildraggers.

Take it from a guy with tons of wasted years of bush flying. Adventure flying rarely does anyone any favors when trying to build a contemporary airline career. I could get a job right now overseas or flying smokejumpers. I still get the occasional call from a supercub operator or bush outfit. The problem is that I don't care about that stuff. I just did it to build flight time towards the airlines not to be stuck there for life.

At the time I took the jobs that were offered under the belief that it all counted and it does but for other similar operations not for the airlines. The only thing they want is part 121 jet PIC. Period. Therefore have fun flying radial engines and watch your career get side tracked as I did or forget all that stuff and go straight for what the airlines want to see. Glass. Jet. PIC.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
05-01-2011, 07:26 AM
I agree with you guys. I think that adventure flying holds a lot of value. It goes straight to the heart of what Captain Sully was talking about in his address to congress. We need life long pilots in the airlines. People who have a deep holistic fascination with flight. Pilots who come with a broad background that could include everything from gliders to helicopters.

Currently the only thing that the major airlines care about are pilot milled automatons who go straight from the factory to a regional. No strange career diversions. Nothing unusual in the logbook or long string of jobs to investigate. Just college, flight school and then regionals. Dedicated autopilot operators.

The HR department has taken over hiring. Take it back and hire pilots again. Change it. I have a broad background and I want a good job.

Skyhigh

2StgTurbine
05-01-2011, 08:40 AM
I agree with you guys. I think that adventure flying holds a lot of value. It goes straight to the heart of what Captain Sully was talking about in his address to congress. We need life long pilots in the airlines. People who have a deep holistic fascination with flight. Pilots who come with a broad background that could include everything from gliders to helicopters.

Currently the only thing that the major airlines care about are pilot milled automatons who go straight from the factory to a regional. No strange career diversions. Nothing unusual in the logbook or long string of jobs to investigate. Just college, flight school and then regionals. Autopilot operators.

The HR department has taken over hiring. Take it back and hire pilots again. Change it.

Skyhigh

I disagree with you. Airlines do want pilots who can work in an automated environment, but not just that. Regional and majors are different worlds. Since this is in the low time section, I assume jsfBoat plans to go to a regional on his way to a major. Regionals like pilots who have experience with glass planes, but that really only helps applicants with a few hundred hours. They would much rather take someone who flew a DC-6 and has 2,000 hours than someone who has 1,500 hours in a G1000 172.

Just because airplanes are becoming more and more automated and more and more decision making gets taken out of the flight deck with each FOM revision does not mean airlines only want autopilot operators. Airlines have invested too much money to have pilots that don’t have the ability to make good decisions. Here is an example.

A crew of autopilot operators as you describe are on runway 01 at DCA and tower tells them to fly 060 after departure. The crew follows those instructions exactly because that is all they remember from their days at the flight academy and brief time instructing for that academy. They bust P56 and cause a media frenzy. Stories run 24 hours a day about how inexperienced those pilots are and how horrible the airline is. Sales drop and the board of directors are very unhappy. The company responds by issuing a new revision to the FOM restricting their pilots from using runway 01 and they pay lots of money to repaint their planes to deflect the bad press.

Now here is what a crew that airlines really want would do. They get the same clearance and depart, but new FO jsfBoat notices there is an unusually strong wind from the east and his experience flying a DC-6 VFR up north tells him they will be blown into P56. The captain who went to Pilot Academy USA, but gained lots of confidence in his decision making abilities flying single pilot IFR for a 135 operator in old broken planes, flies a heading of 075 to get the ground track the controller wants, and jsfBoat informs ATC. They depart the area without a second thought of all the trouble they saved the company because it is just one of the many times they ignored a direct order from ATC, management, or even the FOM if it conflicts with a FAR or safety.

Airlines want pilots who can make decisions like that. If they can find a pilot who can do that and has some experience with glass, even better. Your plan of taking the fast track to the airlines has just as many pitfalls and traps as spending 10 years up north flying old props. Many military fliers don’t get to a major until their mid 30s or 40s. Bush time alone will not get you a job at a major, but it will get you to a regional. The time you get at a regional will get you to an interview at a major, and the stories of your bush flying will make you stick out from the rest and could get you the job. If you wanted to, you could go to a regional and move to a major soon after, but you don’t like the pay or the lifestyle, and that is fine.

There are many people who took the fast track and it got them nowhere but at a regional with a 10 year upgrade. There are others who had some fun building time in unique ways that may have taken a little longer, but got hired by a regional where they upgraded a year later and are now at a major. There are so many variables in this industry, it is impossible to predict what the best path to take is. The only thing you can do is pick a path that you will enjoy.

HercDriver130
05-01-2011, 09:11 AM
Have to disagree Sky... how many interviews have you been on in the past year.... I have quite a few... hell three in just the past month. One was a 747 ACMI Operator, the other a DC-9 on demand cargo operator and the other a Fractional operator. TWO things stuck out, ONE -- all three seemed very concerned that you were VERY aware of the type of flying they did, the schedules they fly, how much time you would be away from home, NONE of them sugar coated what it was like to fly for their company, and TWO -- The seemed to want to gauge if you would fit it with the type of people and culture already in place at their company. Automotons.... not at these places... they want team players, guys who will get along with a crew for extended time on the road, somebody willing to give and take. All three also seemed to put some importance on decision making... and I don't mean the "capt shows up drunk what are you going to do" type questions... more "real world" stuff... putting you in a situation, and evaluating what you would do and how you would do it, continue to destination.....return to point of departure... Not blindly making decisions, but CA's who will use all the resources at their disposal and then make a decision, AND be able to explain why you did what you did. I found the technical portion of all three interviews along with their sim evals to really to get a glimpse of those things. The ACP at one of these places stated "we wouldnt have brought you in if we didnt think you were qualified" so I am not going to insult you with stupid test type questions. At at least two of the three its my personal opinion that ability to adapt to changing situations and to fit in with the company culture was of most importance to them.

oh... and Sky... and really don't think there is a good job out there for you... your expectations (at least in the beginning) are out of line with reality. I mean... in your world you want to make $150k a year to start, work 10 days a month, and only have to fly out and backs!...If I am wrong Sky... tell me exactly what kind of job you want.... and since you have made such a big deal of the past few years about time away from home, please detail that part of your requirement.

2StgTurbine
05-01-2011, 11:52 AM
Also, there are many companies that don't even have glass planes (or if they do, they are still in a regular 6 pack layout), so those companies would look more favorably on someone who has a lot experience with analog gauges as opposed to someone who has only flown glass.

Airhoss
05-01-2011, 04:44 PM
Take it from a guy with tons of wasted years of bush flying. Adventure flying rarely does anyone any favors when trying to build a contemporary airline career. I could get a job right now overseas or flying smokejumpers. I still get the occasional call from a supercub operator or bush outfit. The problem is that I don't care about that stuff. I just did it to build flight time towards the airlines not to be stuck there for life.




Once again you've soundly discounted my input covered your ears and screamed "NAH NAH NAH NAH". Dude I've been there and done that I am the guy you are describing in your posts as supposedly unhireable by the majors. You need to read and absorb a little more and type a little less.


Take it from me, a guy with tons of bush time, round motor time and Smoke Jumper time, quite a bit more than you I'd wager. You are WRONG and you REFUSE to listen as I've previously noted. You did one, 1, uno season, 3 months as a Smoke Jumper F/O correct? Get over yourself dude.

SkyHigh
05-02-2011, 07:07 AM
Take it from me, a guy with tons of bush time, round motor time and Smoke Jumper time, quite a bit more than you I'd wager. You are WRONG and you REFUSE to listen as I've previously noted. You did one, 1, uno season, 3 months as a Smoke Jumper F/O correct? Get over yourself dude.

I flew for the CASA for six months before I was hired to fly for a learjet operator. Before that I spent seven years living in Alaska as a flight instructor and bush pilot. I lived in several remote villages during my time as a part 135 airtaxi pilot.

Your information is old. I bet that most who are at the legacy airlines today could not get hired in the current climate with the resume's they had back then.

1000 turbine PIC minimum to apply. Part 121 jet PIC to be most competitive plus multiple internal recommendations and a type rating in some cases. Those things are not commonly found in the bush. A DC6 does not quality nor does it build the kind of resume that would catch the eye of a legacy airline.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
05-02-2011, 07:17 AM
Have to disagree Sky... how many interviews have you been on in the past year.... I have quite a few... hell three in just the past month. One was a 747 ACMI Operator, the other a DC-9 on demand cargo operator and the other a Fractional operator. TWO things stuck out, ONE -- all three seemed very concerned that you were VERY aware of the type of flying they did, the schedules they fly, how much time you would be away from home, NONE of them sugar coated what it was like to fly for their company, and TWO -- The seemed to want to gauge if you would fit it with the type of people and culture already in place at their company. Automotons.... not at these places... they want team players, guys who will get along with a crew for extended time on the road, somebody willing to give and take. All three also seemed to put some importance on decision making... and I don't mean the "capt shows up drunk what are you going to do" type questions... more "real world" stuff... putting you in a situation, and evaluating what you would do and how you would do it, continue to destination.....return to point of departure... Not blindly making decisions, but CA's who will use all the resources at their disposal and then make a decision, AND be able to explain why you did what you did. I found the technical portion of all three interviews along with their sim evals to really to get a glimpse of those things. The ACP at one of these places stated "we wouldnt have brought you in if we didnt think you were qualified" so I am not going to insult you with stupid test type questions. At at least two of the three its my personal opinion that ability to adapt to changing situations and to fit in with the company culture was of most importance to them.

oh... and Sky... and really don't think there is a good job out there for you... your expectations (at least in the beginning) are out of line with reality. I mean... in your world you want to make $150k a year to start, work 10 days a month, and only have to fly out and backs!...If I am wrong Sky... tell me exactly what kind of job you want.... and since you have made such a big deal of the past few years about time away from home, please detail that part of your requirement.

Herc,

You are right. I do not want to fly for a third rate wide body airline that could hold me hostage in the third world for weeks or months. I am not interested in making 60K to fly a smokey old jet to places I never wanted to see in the first place.

I do not like being a slave to a heartless regional that strives to make my life unbearable so that they can have a leg up at out next contract meeting. So yes I need to make a living. I need to have a life. If contemporary aviation is about selling everything you hold dear to your employer then yes there is not job for me.

I need to be well compensated, have a measure of control over my life and to hold at least some respect from my employer. Flying was not like this when I started. The pilots I knew growing up lead admirable lives. I still hold those expectations.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh
05-02-2011, 07:42 AM
Like I have said. I would be the first to welcome a change in the hiring practices of legacy airlines but I stand my my original point. The pursuit of adventure flying does little for the resume and can divert a pilot into a region of aviation where it is difficult to escape from.

Piston seaplane time is nice but it does nothing to help you get the interview in the first place. It takes 1000 hours minimum of pilot in command time in turbine aircraft that require a type rating just to be able to apply. To get hired you will be up against guys who have been flying left seat in a CRJ for thousands of hours and who possibly have an uncle who is a check airman with the company.

In regards to UAL and AA it is a moot question since it has been close to ten years since they last hired anybody. Who knows what their hiring criteria will be.

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR
05-02-2011, 07:50 AM
...but I stand my my original point. The pursuit of adventure flying does little for the resume and can divert a pilot into a region of aviation where it is difficult to escape from.

And you have been proven wrong numerous times in this thread alone.
But there is some admiration of you for sticking with a losing argument like a fearless Captain going down with his sinking ship.
BRAVO! :)

USMCFLYR

SkyHigh
05-02-2011, 07:56 AM
And you have been proven wrong numerous times in this thread alone.
But there is some admiration of you for sticking with a losing argument like a fearless Captain going down with his sinking ship.
BRAVO! :)

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

It seems ironic to me that those who are largely in opposition really do not have any recent experience with the subject but I guess we will have to disagree. :)

Try getting hired with DAL, SWA or FedEx with the crown jewel in your resume being DC-6 time. :rolleyes:

Skyhigh

DeadHead
05-02-2011, 09:26 AM
USMCFLYR,

It seems ironic to me that those who are largely in opposition really do not have any recent experience with the subject but I guess we will have to disagree. :)

Try getting hired with DAL, SWA or FedEx with the crown jewel in your resume being DC-6 time. :rolleyes:

Skyhigh

I know of 4 former DC-6 pilots at DAL, and I'm sure that are many more.

Your arguments and talking points are full of holes.

USMCFLYR
05-02-2011, 11:10 AM
USMCFLYR,

It seems ironic to me that those who are largely in opposition really do not have any recent experience with the subject

and your "recent experience" comes from............?


Try getting hired with DAL, SWA or FedEx with the crown jewel in your resume being DC-6 time. :rolleyes:
Skyhigh

I know of 4 former DC-6 pilots at DAL, and I'm sure that are many more.

Your arguments and talking points are full of holes.
Ouch! Another shot across the bow.
I see that we are changing the argument now to be DC-6 time (or any radial powered aircraft since that is what we were talking about with the DC-6 being used as an example) as the "crown jewel" of your time - not just part of it.

So exactly what is your point again?
Sky....gurrrrgle, gurrrgggle, ggggggurrrrle GASP!.....as your head slips beneath the waves with the sinking ship.

Seems like a pretty clear end to the story here guys.
If you have the chance to fly older radial engined aircraft, and it is a desire of yours to have been able to do so.....go for it, it very well may set you apart at some point in the future if you decide that you want to move onto the Regionals and Majors.
If that is ALL you have in your logbook, then you may not have the variety of experience that airlines seem to like to see; though it seems that with the usual experience level that I would assume would be required to get such a job that you would be just as competitive as the applicant who has CFI'ed until he got the required mins. Then you might both get hired by the Regional and start to build your P-121 time until you move on along the path to whatever flying might be your end goal.

See Sky - your opinion is even presented in that statment without making wide, absolute sweeping statements without anything other than your bias opinion as evidence of the extreme.

As usual - much of what Sky speaks is true if taken with the infusion of salt (not just a grain) and if you can look past the extreme negativism.
If it fits in with your plans - stop and smell those roses and enjoy your flying career.

USMCFLYR

Twin Wasp
05-02-2011, 11:55 AM
Herc,

I need to be well compensated, have a measure of control over my life and to hold at least some respect from my employer. Flying was not like this when I started. ... I still hold those expectations.
Skyhigh

I think there's your problem. You're living in the past. I'll grant you aviation has changed for the worse. But talk to lawyers or doctors and they'll say the same thing about their fields. I can expect to make 6 figures in another year after starting over after a 20 year job cratered. The days I work the company has control, the days I don't are mine. Respect, what are you smoking?

Yeah, I've got 8 recip types, only had to do 5 rides. There aren't even any flying examples of two of them.

HercDriver130
05-02-2011, 12:44 PM
I rest my case... there is not a flying job anywhere that would satisfy SH.

Airhoss
05-02-2011, 01:08 PM
It's amazing how much more he knows than the guys who have actually been there and done that. For a guy who's never even come close to smelling a legacy job he sure has all the answers.:o

2bennySODC6
10-01-2012, 12:00 PM
DC-6 time might make for fun interview conversation but if you only flew a DC-6 and did not have any jet time it is unlikely that you would have even gotten the interview at a legacy airline in the first place since it is not they type of flying that modern airlines are interested in. Pilots yes HR departments no.

Skyhigh

Skyhigh, I just wanted to let you know that basically every opinion, prediction, theory, etc. of yours is completely ass backwards and incorrect:mad:. Thank you and have a wonderful day.

Adios :D

PW305
10-01-2012, 02:02 PM
I've got 8 recip types... There aren't even any flying examples of two of them.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread... but that's pretty damn cool :)

2xAGM114
10-26-2012, 05:00 PM
Flying the DC-3 or the -46 would be an amazing experience. Not many these days can say they've logged hours flying an airframe which was almost 50 years old when they were born. To be able to do it in a place like Alaska would make it that much sweeter.

Anyone who has seen an episode of the TV show "Ice Pilots" can relate. People don't take those jobs for the money or to build time for an airline gig necessarily. They do it for the love of flying, an attribute I'd say we've lost in our industry lately.

Yazzoo
10-26-2012, 05:17 PM
There's an operator out of Puerto Rico that I forget the name of, rumor has it they've hired as low as 250 hours and you will be flying some pretty crazy runs. It's the wild west down here!

ski fish fly
11-28-2012, 11:59 AM
SkyHigh, et al ....

There's no cookie cutter way to the best majors. Getting that right seat RJ job at 250 hours doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be first in line at FedEx, SWA, Delta, UAL, etc.

Yes, you have to have the advertised minimums which I believe are 1000 turbine PIC for FedEx, Delta, and SWA (don't know about UAL) .... but, beyond those mininums, all bets are off. What sets you apart from the other guy?

I have as an eclectic flying career as anyone and, I'm flying for a great major airline. I was well beyond the "30 something" age when I was hired and wouldn't trade one of the great experiences I had along the way to have gotten here any sooner.

For some reason, many in aviation measure success as landing that job in with a major airline. My perspective is different. Regardless of your salary or schedule, are you having fun? If you're not having fun, then it's time to reevaluate your aviation path. If you're having fun .... you're already a successful aviation professional.

I have a good friend of mine who has been a professional aviator for over 30 years and has yet to fly a multi engine airplane. Beyond that, he has yet to fly a turbine powered aircraft. I fly for the majors; he flies backcountry. I've flown one trip with him. He is as much as a professional and successful pilot as I am .... maybe more so.

Best of luck to all! Be safe, don't bend metal, survive, and .... have fun doing it!

jsfBoat
11-28-2012, 07:35 PM
There's an operator out of Puerto Rico that I forget the name of, rumor has it they've hired as low as 250 hours and you will be flying some pretty crazy runs. It's the wild west down here!

4 star cargo? I heard they shut down in the last year or two ago. I was wanting to go there, but I had just recently passed my multi ride at that time.

A radial would be great just to fly something that my grandfather flew at Continental and to see what the old school way of flying was like. Guys like him that flew in the golden age of airlines were truly flying in a great period of aviation history.

Phantom Flyer
11-30-2012, 04:25 PM
Flying radial engines is fun and all but really does not help the career progression to the airlines all that much. You might as well be getting SIC in a piper sencia.(?) True it is better than instructing but people get stuck there thinking that PIC in a DC-6 is going to get you on with SWA and it will not.
The airlines want part 121 jet pic. I would not waste your time here.


Skyhigh:

Perhaps he just loves aviation and really doesn't want to get into the airline "rut". Believe it or not, there are some good flying jobs that are not with the majors. Granted this isn't the late 80's and 90's when one could knock down $300K+ in the left seat of a wide body with a major but those days are gone forever.

Given the state of the industry and the decline in wages, benefits and retirement options, perhaps he just wants to find a seat doing what he loves to do; fly airplanes.

You probably don't believe it but there are a few of those folks still around.

G'Luck in your quest for the Holy Grail.:)

Phantom Flyer
11-30-2012, 04:37 PM
Here is my point. Flying is the bush is "neat". DC6 time is kind of "cool". However there is not even a place to record those experiences in most airline pilot applications.

The HR lady does not care about your fun connection to aviations past. The computer who scans the application does not care how cool a DC6 is. It all just goes into the total time column as if it were touch and goes in a 172. There is not a place to record such vivid and broad experiences because the airlines don't care about it.

All they want to see is part 121 jet PIC. Anything that detracts from that path is seen as a negative no matter how cool or fun.

Skyhigh

Sorry Sky:

Having served on pilot selection boards for a number of years, you are correct in that we had applications with thousands of hours of turbojet and a lot of military experience. When the applicants came through the actual interview process, I always found that those who had been flying the bush, flying old radials and some of the other varied jobs in aviation made for quality applicants and were great resources in the cockpit if they were hired.

It's not all about how many hours of PIC time one has in an RJ but more about "would I like to fly a four days trip with this applicant in the right seat" and how the applicant fits in with the pilot group. Believe me, there were a LOT of applicants that walked on water as far as having all the squares checked with flight time that never got to the second stage of the interview process because they weren't well rounded and the type of people we wanted to be locked up in the cockpit with on a five day international trip.

Incidentally, we did have a pilot applicant with around 2,500 hours of turbine time along with military fighter experience, that flew twin Beech's and DC-3's in a night freight operation throughout the Midwest for over 3 years. Do you want to guess who everyone on the interview board wanted to talk to? He was hired and became a domicile Chief Pilot. One of the best hires because of a varied background and so many "real" flying experiences.

G'Day Mate:)