Airline Pilot Forums

I remember being a little kid and the first time I saw a NorthWest 727, it was on the south maintenance ramp in MSP. With it's beautiful red tail, the giant N with a the compass pointing north; I knew I wanted to fly airplanes. About 20-25 some odd years later after getting my training, joining the industry and seeing what life has to offer for a pilot I have a bad taste in my mouth. I won't say it was all bad, I met allot of great people, experienced things few have and seen sights few get to see. But at the end of the day something feels empty almost as if the lifestyle is one that is unsustainable. Aviation has caused great strain on my life, both personally and financially.
I know now that of which I loved as a child has long since been dead, even back in 1990 things had already changed and with 2000s things really changed, but still I can't help but feel: do I really want out? So I ask all of my fellow pilots who are in the game and those of you who pushed back from the table, how do you make the decision? Worst yet how do you live with it? I am really thinking it may be time to hang it up.

Flywithjohn,

"Addiction can be viewed as a continued involvement with a substance or activity despite the negative consequences associated with it". From Wilkipedia

I quit smoking over 20 years ago but am still occasionally hit with the urge to light up. The sense of loss will never fully go away. The same goes for aviation. It too will most likely be an eternal curse.

The results of quitting though are definitely worth it. My life is much better now. My family is happy and prosperous. My days are spent in the manner of my choosing. However I must admit that I quit smoking completely on my own but I could not quit flying without help.

It is not easy to leave even a crummy job for the unknown. As a family we were miserable when I was a pilot. Pay was low and we were stuck in a city that we hated far away from friends, family and the life that we loved. I had no other obvious skills or profession. Flying was the only thing that I focussed on since high school. To quit without a solid plan was not easy.

A motivation technique that I found to be helpful was to study the lives of those who were twenty years further down the road than I. Most were burned out, broke and alienated from a life of friends and family. I knew that I was on the same path and wanted desperately to get off of it.

My personal limitation was the age of 35. I figured that if I had not made it to a major airline by 35 I was going to pull the plug. Beyond that age starting over seemed to be too hard and the odds of making it to my dream fading rapidly. I was 37 by the time fate finally stepped in and pushed me out. However I still have not quit in the classical sense. I am perpetually searching for jobs and have done so since I was laid off. Yet nothing has presented itself that comes even close to matching the income and situation that is needed to support a family.

Many years have passed since then though I still think about flying everyday and most likely always will. There are no easy answers. Stay and watch your personal life go up in flames or quit to face the unknown.

Skyhigh

Tough choice man. I've thought about it too, but over the last few years I've realized that piloting is part of what I AM rather than just something I DO. Addiction? Maybe, but even if/after you quit, you'll always still be an addict still wanting it...

But once you close the cockpit door, all that ground BS leaves. You get paid to sit in line and watch airplanes takeoff and land for hours. Then, it is your turn, you add power, get up around 100 MPH, pull back on the steering wheel, and the most amazing thing happens, most of the time. A week goes by and you've spent 20-30 hours in the air, time that can not be deducted from someone's lifespan. Sure, you've also spent 20-90 hours on the ground away from home sitting in airports, again, watching airplanes land and takeoff.

If it's about the money, you'll never be happy. No career is safe. No job is safe. Unless you own the company, you can be laid off at any time. If you own the company, you're always out chasing a thousand bosses, would-be customers.

Some haven't saved enough to survive the furloughs and downturns. Some buy expensive kids, wives, husbands, and so on. They are intolerant of the years of poverty it takes to get ahead in the industry, forgetting that doctors, lawyers, and many other occupations do the same. They also are focused on themselves, wanting instant gratification for themselves, so what if the other is miserable. It's probably why the divorce rate is so high.

If I haven't made it to a major by 65, then I know that path was not for me. I've two years left before my goal of making a million by age 35. Only a few times I've regretting having to get up and go to work, and that had nothing to do with airlines.

Go with your head held high, you tried and decided it was not for you. Nothing is wrong with that. Go to the next job and work it, enjoy it. It's the journey, not the destination.

But once you close the cockpit door, all that ground BS leaves. You get paid to sit in line and watch airplanes takeoff and land for hours. Then, it is your turn, you add power, get up around 100 MPH, pull back on the steering wheel, and the most amazing thing happens, most of the time. A week goes by and you've spent 20-30 hours in the air, time that can not be deducted from someone's lifespan. Sure, you've also spent 20-90 hours on the ground away from home sitting in airports, again, watching airplanes land and takeoff.

If it's about the money, you'll never be happy. No career is safe. No job is safe. Unless you own the company, you can be laid off at any time. If you own the company, you're always out chasing a thousand bosses, would-be customers.

Some haven't saved enough to survive the furloughs and downturns. Some buy expensive kids, wives, husbands, and so on. They are intolerant of the years of poverty it takes to get ahead in the industry, forgetting that doctors, lawyers, and many other occupations do the same. They also are focused on themselves, wanting instant gratification for themselves, so what if the other is miserable. It's probably why the divorce rate is so high.

If I haven't made it to a major by 65, then I know that path was not for me. I've two years left before my goal of making a million by age 35. Only a few times I've regretting having to get up and go to work, and that had nothing to do with airlines.

Go with your head held high, you tried and decided it was not for you. Nothing is wrong with that. Go to the next job and work it, enjoy it. It's the journey, not the destination.

It takes money and time at home to raise a family, fund a retirement and otherwise make a life. Doctors and lawyers will most likely gain a significant financial return that is worthy of their investment and eventually will hold control over their lives again. They are not a fair comparison to Pilots.

To most people the important stuff is not the take offs and landings but the family that they have left at home. Flying is just the job that is supposed to provide for all that stuff. Increasingly however aviation is not compatible with the demands of a full family life.

High performing single people are able to make flying work but there is a price to be paid for letting aviation consume ones whole life.


Skyhigh

If you fly for the money you will probably never be rich in Sky's mind. If you fly only as a way to make a living you will not survive this industry. Everyone is different and everyone deals with it in different ways. If you choose to leave the profession you will find your way, most everyone does. Sky makes SOME valid points, others I disagree with and they are not worth discussing with him because he is dead set on his ideas and that is okay, just realize what he says is his opinion and HIS experience. YMMV. Oh.. and sky... those postal jobs you always talk about... USPS has cut 105,000 workers in the past 2 years.... oh and did you see.. they have announced 7500 more yesterday. No industry is safe, no company is safe. There ARE opportunities outside of aviation... there ARE opportunities inside aviation as well.

If you fly for the money you will probably never be rich in Sky's mind. If you fly only as a way to make a living you will not survive this industry. Everyone is different and everyone deals with it in different ways. If you choose to leave the profession you will find your way, most everyone does. Sky makes SOME valid points, others I disagree with and they are not worth discussing with him because he is dead set on his ideas and that is okay, just realize what he says is his opinion and HIS experience. YMMV. Oh.. and sky... those postal jobs you always talk about... USPS has cut 105,000 workers in the past 2 years.... oh and did you see.. they have announced 7500 more yesterday. No industry is safe, no company is safe. There ARE opportunities outside of aviation... there ARE opportunities inside aviation as well.

HercDriver130,

I am sure that you realize that the mailman is a baseline example of what can be accomplished without a college degree or flight training; good wages, benefits and retirement.

Pilots can fool themselves into thinking that they are doing well as a 52K per year regional captain when really they are earning far less than a mailman. After four years of college and the cost of flight training a regional pilot should be making far more than they do.

I agree that no job is safe however I am certain that delivering the mail is a much safer career than being a pilot. When times get tuff the corporate jet is the first thing to go the mail however still gets delivered. In addition in the rare occasion when a mailman gets laid off they will not have 150K in student loans to pay off either.

From a stability and financial standpoint being a mailman is a better career.

Skyhigh

Sky. I can bet the odds of finding a good flying job is better than the odds of the post office hiring you right now.

Sky. I can bet the odds of finding a good flying job is better than the odds of the post office hiring you right now.

The post office is in hard times right now but they will hire again and keep on delivering the mail. Besides, what is a good job in aviation anymore? SWA? UAL?

Hows about 120K to fly a 737 in the middle east? Then what? A big part of my point is that it is not all that easy to determine what a good job as a plot is anymore. 60K at a regional is not that great when you consider the cost that it takes to get there and the lack of benefits. To me a life overseas is not much of a life.

The mailman has more control over his life, enjoys career stability and has a real retirement to look forward to.

A mailman is not the only example we can use. The military is hiring.

Skyhigh

I am going thru the same discussion with myself right now. A little of my story...I got hired at a major airline at the age of 30 and all was going to plan. Then like a lot of people; the industry happened and I was out of a job. Luckily I found a new job even before I was furloughed and now I talk to airplanes instead of fly them. I go to work every day in a dark room and stare at a scope. Do you know how bad it sucks to work 5 sometimes 6 days a week every week. Some days I like it and think this is the greatest job ever, but most I am truly unhappy. I thought if I could only go to the same place and be home every night that would be awesome. Imagine how much I could see my family I thought. Well it's not true my wife works a real job and I see her less now then I did when I was flying! Well I am living proof the grass is not always greener. I have a job that comes with good pay, good benefits, and supposedly good job security. So I have started to get myself back in the game. I am not going to quit cold turkey and jump back into flying even if that may be the best way back in. I am going to slowly start flying again and attempt to get back into it and see where life takes me. I have started applying to jobs, but like most the regionals don't work due to the pay. I do have recall rights so that is always an option. Of course who knows when that will happen or maybe after I get out of training in my current job I'll like it a lot more and want to stay. After all that droning on I guess what I am saying is it's a tough decision and even after almost 3 years of being out I am still not sure what path I want to take. Good luck!

I am going thru the same discussion with myself right now. A little of my story...I got hired at a major airline at the age of 30 and all was going to plan. Then like a lot of people; the industry happened and I was out of a job. Luckily I found a new job even before I was furloughed and now I talk to airplanes instead of fly them. I go to work every day in a dark room and stare at a scope. Do you know how bad it sucks to work 5 sometimes 6 days a week every week. Some days I like it and think this is the greatest job ever, but most I am truly unhappy. I thought if I could only go to the same place and be home every night that would be awesome. Imagine how much I could see my family I thought. Well it's not true my wife works a real job and I see her less now then I did when I was flying! Well I am living proof the grass is not always greener. I have a job that comes with good pay, good benefits, and supposedly good job security. So I have started to get myself back in the game. I am not going to quit cold turkey and jump back into flying even if that may be the best way back in. I am going to slowly start flying again and attempt to get back into it and see where life takes me. I have started applying to jobs, but like most the regionals don't work due to the pay. I do have recall rights so that is always an option. Of course who knows when that will happen or maybe after I get out of training in my current job I'll like it a lot more and want to stay. After all that droning on I guess what I am saying is it's a tough decision and even after almost 3 years of being out I am still not sure what path I want to take. Good luck!

BE58,

A real job is surely a shock to the system of most pilots. We are use to seeing work as play that also comes with a pretend paycheck. My guess is that it will take a few years at your new job before you begin to feel comfortable with the work and to see all the benefits of a normal life.

Skyhigh

I was an aviation and business/finance major in college, so I can not help but to spend time thinking about costs versus benefit and the like. To me choosing a career is probably the biggest investment decisions in ones life. A lot depends upon the performance and direction that your chosen profession takes you in.

An aviation career is an especially huge risk. Not only does it take the cost of a starter house in training and education but most of a decade before a career hopeful begins to get an idea of their career potential. Most of the time it means getting stuck at a regional.

To me the investment demands a better return than what most people get these days. In addition a prudent person would expect a better assurance of making it to someplace that has the earnings potential to pay back all the costs with interest.

To look at it another way suppose your broker talked you into dropped 250K on Enron stock and it fell to zero six months or a decade later. Most investors would be litigiously upset. Flight schools and universities are doing the same thing yet people only shrug and say "oh well. I guess it didn't work out".

A flying career is a costly investment. Not only is it s huge cash outlay but it comes at the very beginning of most peoples adult life. The time value of that investment over the years will have a huge impact on your lifelong standard of living. It demands a huge return on the investment that I just do not see.

In comparison a mailman's only outlay is the time it took to fill out an application and passing a civil service test. If he were to loose his job after a year he can actually afford to say "oh well".

Skyhigh

And that folks is why Sky is no longer in aviation. He wants a normal life. Who ever got into this business thinking they would have a "normal" life was smoking crack. There is nothing normal about pilot, never was, never will be. Flying jobs where you are home every night with the wife and kids are few and far between. Yep there are a few out there, but they are in the vast minority of positions. Maybe Sky you should have been more honest with yourself about the realities of aviation and how it meshed with your "ideal life". NOBODY begrudges you your current life, just don't begrudge us ours.

As for the mailman....USPS is a sinking ship... 8 billion in losses this year... and no way to stem the tide. Oh.. and those mailman jobs... rarely go to outsiders.... most people start as a rural route carrier, with not guaranteed hours and no benefits. Maybe,,, after a few years you might get offered a full time position... oh.. if they are still cutting back.

And that folks is why Sky is no longer in aviation. He wants a normal life. Who ever got into this business thinking they would have a "normal" life was smoking crack. There is nothing normal about pilot, never was, never will be. Flying jobs where you are home every night with the wife and kids are few and far between. Yep there are a few out there, but they are in the vast minority of positions. Maybe Sky you should have been more honest with yourself about the realities of aviation and how it meshed with your "ideal life". NOBODY begrudges you your current life, just don't begrudge us ours.

As for the mailman....USPS is a sinking ship... 8 billion in losses this year... and no way to stem the tide. Oh.. and those mailman jobs... rarely go to outsiders.... most people start as a rural route carrier, with not guaranteed hours and no benefits. Maybe,,, after a few years you might get offered a full time position... oh.. if they are still cutting back.


I never expected a normal life as a pilot but I did expect to gain a return that was worthy of my investment and sacrifice. In addition, if the postal service is a sinking ship then the airlines would be the Titanic. Rusting and on the bottom for some now.

The post office is a government agency that is not going to go bankrupt.

I don't begrudge anyone for their choices. My aim is merely to point out its folly and the consequences that might come from a lifetime as a pilot.

Skyhigh

At my regional airline a ranking member of management told me that "the 401K matching plan is really a gift to management and to a few senior captains".

His point was that most of the rank and file employees did not contribute even though there was a 5% match from the company. People forget that out of that 72K regional captain salary has to come all the funds needed for retirement.

When you start to crunch the numbers it is a staggering amount. At my airline most did not even begin to contribute until 50 years of age. There just is not enough time left to build the nest egg needed for a fully funded retirement.

Even dedicated 401K savers are exposed to the turmoil of the stock market. Lately that means a loss of value. There is just no way that a 401k is comparable to an old fashioned pension. In my state mailmen, state patrol officers and department of transportation workers are eligible for a government sponsored retirement plan.

At first glance we all would like to discount the career of a government service worker until you take a look at the entirety of what they get. Last weekend I met a guy who was just a few years older than I and was just about to retire after 26 years as a state patrolman. Not only will he get most of his salary for life but he is then able to start a second career as a bailiff.

Soon he will be collecting two paychecks and he is not even 50 years old yet. There is still time for him to retire as a bailiff and possibly get a third paycheck as something else. Throughout the years mailmen and state patrol officers live a modest life but it is one that is sustainable for as long as they need it.

Compensation is much more than what a worker takes home at the end of the month but rather what they benefit from over a lifetime. It pays move overall to deliver the mail or to drive a snowplow then to be a regional airline pilot.

The State Patrolman who I met is going to be retired before most regional airline pilots even start their savings plan.

Skyhigh

Baltimore -- cutting 250-300 sworn officers
Michigan state police -- 1800 fewer officers than 10 years ago
Akron ohio -- laid off 96 officers in late 2010
Camden NJ -- laying of 170 of 370 officers
other things of note... from The Fraternal order of Police nationwide survery
58 percent of departments have laid off officers
43 percent have hiring freezes even for "open" positions
3.3% fewer officers nationwide since 2009

tell all those unemployed "peace officers" they have a better future...

oh...and unemployment in the Construction industry... nationwide.....22.5%

Baltimore -- cutting 250-300 sworn officers
Michigan state police -- 1800 fewer officers than 10 years ago
Akron ohio -- laid off 96 officers in late 2010
Camden NJ -- laying of 170 of 370 officers
other things of note... from The Fraternal order of Police nationwide survery
58 percent of departments have laid off officers
43 percent have hiring freezes even for "open" positions
3.3% fewer officers nationwide since 2009

tell all those unemployed "peace officers" they have a better future...

oh...and unemployment in the Construction industry... nationwide.....22.5%

HercDriver130,

I think you get the thrust of what I am getting at. No one likes being laid off. An important difference is that state and government agencies usually do not have to lay off while it is the norm in aviation.

Additionally when a government worker is sent home they still retain a portion of their retirement benefits. I was a county firefighter for just under a year and a volunteer for another three years and to my surprise I will be eligible to receive a hundred dollars a month once I reach a retirement age.

Lastly as I have already mentioned a laid off mailman does not have a massive investment associated with his career to pay off.

Skyhigh

Well in my state ..(and I am a state employee) you dont get **** until you have done at least 8 years of service.

Just admit it sky....EVERY profession and job series out there has its pitfalls...come on dude admit it.

States laying off... hell TEXAS is talking about laying off over 250,000 state workers.....the military is only a fraction of the size it was 20 years ago..... MY state hasnt given a pay raise... ANY pay raise....COLA nothing in 4 years.... oh.. and the pay... I am paid about 60 percent of what a private sector worker doing a comparable job would be paid.... INSURANCE sucks... its not all roses dude.

Well in my state ..(and I am a state employee) you dont get **** until you have done at least 8 years of service.

Just admit it sky....EVERY profession and job series out there has its pitfalls...come on dude admit it.

States laying off... hell TEXAS is talking about laying off over 250,000 state workers.....the military is only a fraction of the size it was 20 years ago..... MY state hasnt given a pay raise... ANY pay raise....COLA nothing in 4 years.... oh.. and the pay... I am paid about 60 percent of what a private sector worker doing a comparable job would be paid.... INSURANCE sucks... its not all roses dude.

Every profession has its pitfalls but pilots pay a fortune for the privilege and come back for more.

If you do not believe me Eagle is hiring. :)

Skyhigh

The truth hurts:

“The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.” - H.L. Mencken

I borrowed this quote from Fishfreighter. Mailmen are used to tell us the truth about our careers.

Skyhigh

Pilots love to fly and the ever efficient world has taken notice. We spend the price of a starter house to pay for our own training and education to work in a profession that only pays in landings and take offs.

Competitive pressures will continue to erode at wages and benefits while those who do boring pedestrian careers gain leverage.

In 20 years garbage men will be among the highest paid professions if they are not so already. I know a big city garbage man who now lives in my rural home town and has been retired since he was 47.

In the spirit of the thread OP for your sake I hope that you take a good and hard look at where this profession is going and what other industries and careers provide.

Skyhigh

Pilots love to fly and the ever efficient world has taken notice. We spend the price of a starter house to pay for our own training and education to work in a profession that only pays in landings and take offs.

Competitive pressures will continue to erode at wages and benefits while those who do boring pedestrian careers gain leverage.

In 20 years garbage men will be among the highest paid professions if they are not so already. I know a big city garbage man who now lives in my rural home town and has been retired since he was 47.

In the spirit of the thread OP for your sake I hope that you take a good and hard look at where this profession is going and what other industries and careers provide.

Skyhigh

Sky, seriously, once again you are painting this industry with a big broad brush. The airlines ( I guess) are paid in takeoffs and landings, but there are a lot of other ways to earn a living flying airplanes. Charter (decent ones) Fracs, Sim Instructor (great gig), Training Center Examiner (did this too) Cargo (soon to be my new baby), etc. Being the highest paid profession doesn't guarantee you retirement pay and retiring at a certain age. I know people who are paid 6 figures who are barely scraping by, and folks who make 5 figures who were smart about money and have millions.

Seems like you are doubling down on the people remaining in this career because things are turning around and you don't want to see us happy. Have you looked around? If you try, even YOU can get a decent job flying airplanes with decent money.

Sitting in a cubicle not only costs the money of a college loan, but also costs you your soul.

Being home every night sucks when you are miserable and strung out from kissing the collective asses of your clients and bosses, every day.

I know the flying career sucks financially for the vast majority. But I also wonder if my soul is worth more (or less) than money. School of all forms is way overpriced, as are homes, rent, fuel, etc. Even as a single guy with no family (thank GOD in this economy) with a supposed good cubicle drone job, I still go paycheck to paycheck. I know people that quit to start their own business (cliché I know) and most went belly up within a year. They (like most in the downtown of the city) all have a safety net of rich parents or trust funds however. Everything is a roll of the dice... You can't win unless you were born rich, or fell into some extreme luck. Hard work seems to only get you taken advantage of.


Check this out:
The Gervais Principle, Or The Office According to “The Office” (http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/)

Haven't found a better description of the office 'hierarchy' to date. It truly is soul draining to have to witness this 5 days a week, every single week. I still do wonder if flying for a living would be better for me. I haven't done it on a recreational level in years because I simply cannot afford it.

Sky, seriously, once again you are painting this industry with a big broad brush. The airlines ( I guess) are paid in takeoffs and landings, but there are a lot of other ways to earn a living flying airplanes. Charter (decent ones) Fracs, Sim Instructor (great gig), Training Center Examiner (did this too) Cargo (soon to be my new baby), etc. Being the highest paid profession doesn't guarantee you retirement pay and retiring at a certain age. I know people who are paid 6 figures who are barely scraping by, and folks who make 5 figures who were smart about money and have millions.

Seems like you are doubling down on the people remaining in this career because things are turning around and you don't want to see us happy. Have you looked around? If you try, even YOU can get a decent job flying airplanes with decent money.

Learflyer,

I sincerely hope that everyone here finds the job or situation of their dreams, including me. I have never stopped looking for a good flying job. I guess the demarcation line here is the determination of what a "good" job is.

There are a variety of pilot jobs out there that I could get however they require either a move to a different state (or country) and usually offer a wage that is below most everything else. I am not a 20 year old. I can not afford to be gone from my family and business for a regional first officers salary.

My job criteria are the following: Must be within three hours drive of where I live (no committing) and offer a wage that is considerably more than that of a mailman. Where I live there are few jobs that can meet those expectations however to accept anything less would be a disservice to my family and myself.

The problem is that most flying jobs pay far less than that of a grocery store produce manager and demand that you yield most of the control of your life to the company.

However there are still a few islands of the aviation landscape that offer a significant return on your sacrifice. If you or anyone else here knows of anything that might fit the bill and want to help me to get a job I will happily humiliate myself here on APC to their amusement. I have an ongoing offer to DE727UPS to prove me wrong by getting me hired at UPS.

FedEx? Boeing flight test? Hows about corporate 757 gig?

Any takers???

Skyhigh

Sitting in a cubicle not only costs the money of a college loan, but also costs you your soul.

Being home every night sucks when you are miserable and strung out from kissing the collective asses of your clients and bosses, every day.

I know the flying career sucks financially for the vast majority. But I also wonder if my soul is worth more (or less) than money. School of all forms is way overpriced, as are homes, rent, fuel, etc. Even as a single guy with no family (thank GOD in this economy) with a supposed good cubicle drone job, I still go paycheck to paycheck. I know people that quit to start their own business (cliché I know) and most went belly up within a year. They (like most in the downtown of the city) all have a safety net of rich parents or trust funds however. Everything is a roll of the dice... You can't win unless you were born rich, or fell into some extreme luck. Hard work seems to only get you taken advantage of.


Check this out:
The Gervais Principle, Or The Office According to “The Office” (http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/)

Haven't found a better description of the office 'hierarchy' to date. It truly is soul draining to have to witness this 5 days a week, every single week. I still do wonder if flying for a living would be better for me. I haven't done it on a recreational level in years because I simply cannot afford it.

Dan64456,

I read the entire Ribbon Farm article and found it to be fascinating. Not only does it describe the office workplace but it directly applies to aviation as well.

All of the players in the article exist in the pilot world. I believe that if you were to become an airline pilot you would quickly discover that you have traded one cube for another.

In regards to the airlines I believe that the pilots make up the clueless layer.

From the article:

"The Clueless are the ones who lack the competence to circulate freely through the economy (unlike sociopaths and losers), and build up a perverse sense of loyalty to the firm, even when events make it abundantly clear that the firm is not loyal to them. To sustain themselves, they must be capable of fashioning elaborate delusions based on idealized notions of the firm — the perfectly pathological entities we mentioned. Unless squeezed out by forces they cannot resist, they hang on as long as possible, long after both sociopaths and losers have left..."

If you are not happy in the office environment then you would not be happy as a pilot. Perhaps you are the "true executive" as described in the article?

"Of all organization men, the true executive is the one who remains most suspicious of The Organization. If there is one thing that characterizes him, it is a fierce desire to control his own destiny and, deep down, he resents yielding that control to The Organization, no matter how velvety its grip… he wants to dominate, not be dominated…Many people from the great reaches of middle management can become true believers in The Organization…But the most able are not vouchsafed this solace."


I really think that if you want to change your life you need to change your cycle of thinking. Do not trade one bad situation for another. Break out and find an entirely new place for yourself. All large organisations are the same.

Skyhigh

The problem is that most flying jobs pay far less than that of a grocery store produce manager and demand that you yield most of the control of your life to the company.

You came up with a new job! I'm not sure I have ever seen you use this one before ;) Thanks for expanding on your posts.

Corporate gig??? Not sure about that. From what I hear - attitude goes a long way into getting one of those sweet jobs.
Did DE actually offer you a recommendation?

USMCFLYR

You came up with a new job! I'm not sure I have ever seen you use this one before ;) Thanks for expanding on your posts.

Corporate gig??? Not sure about that. From what I hear - attitude goes a long way into getting one of those sweet jobs.
Did DE actually offer you a recommendation?

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

No, DE did not offer me a recommendation but I did pitch the deal to him. In fact as a check airmen I pointed out that if I were placed into the 757 he could have abused me for the rest of my career. It would have been totally worth it too.

Anyone else want to take up the challenge? Anyone here who also works for UPS? Hows about FedEx? Alaska Airlines? Imagine the humiliation I would feel as I was publicly forced to eat my words here on APC....

Prove me and my years of posting wrong. Be the champion of the ideals of aviation. :)

Skyhigh

You came up with a new job! I'm not sure I have ever seen you use this one before ;) Thanks for expanding on your posts.

Corporate gig??? Not sure about that. From what I hear - attitude goes a long way into getting one of those sweet jobs.
Did DE actually offer you a recommendation?

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

Oh I have a great attitude when it comes to a job that is worth the effort. Most however are not so great. Under those conditions a positive attitude is a detriment.

SEE: Clueless in the article The Gervais Principle, Or The Office According to “The Office”

Skyhigh

USMCFLYR,

Oh I have a great attitude when it comes to a job that is worth the effort. Most however are not so great. Under those conditions a positive attitude is a detriment.

SEE: Clueless in the article The Gervais Principle, Or The Office According to “The Office”

Skyhigh
Yeah - I read your post above.

If I were a hiring manager at a top corporate flight department and had read many of the things that you called professional pilots on this forum (nothing more than automatons or 'Clueless') and your famous broad sweeping generalizations of how pilots who travel are poor family people - I'm thinking you might not pass MY 'sniff' test.

Since those are advertised on here to be your true and unwaivering feelings towards professional aviation, I'm not sure how you could possibly hide them during an interview.

USMCFLYR

Yeah - I read your post above.

If I were a hiring manager at a top corporate flight department and had read many of the things that you called professional pilots on this forum (nothing more than automatons or 'Clueless') and your famous broad sweeping generalizations of how pilots who travel are poor family people - I'm thinking you might not pass MY 'sniff' test.

Since those are advertised on here to be your true and unwaivering feelings towards professional aviation, I'm not sure how you could possibly hide them during an interview.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

I don't know how many interviews you have been on but I have had plenty. Everyone who goes in puts on their best face. Usually it is the best lier that gets the job. I have seen plenty of applicants savagely bad mouth the company that they were in the waiting room to interview with and walk out with an offer.

It seems to be the nature of the HR department to hire the guy who does not really want it. Give me a job interview for a company that I detest and I will get hired every time. In the interview I will appear to be arrogant, disinterested and radiate a sense of superiority to the position. Employers eat it like candy. However be faced with a dream job and the applicant can appear desperate, accommodating and needy. They will leave empty handed.

It is the sad theater of life. The guy who works for SWA dreamed of flying for UPS and the guy at UPS really wanted to fly for UAL and so on. I have gotten every job I have ever wanted... usually 6 months after I really do not want it anymore.

At the rate the industry is going my dream job should be just around the corner. ;)

Skyhigh

"Who is the worst person that you negotiate for? Yourself.." Herb Coen

"Care, but not that much. The single best way to negotiate a deal is to prove to the other side that it really does not mean all that much to you".

All from Herb Coen.

These are reasons why we get the jobs we hate and often struggle with the dream when it is right in front of us. I could go on to explain why a pilots career is one of a poor negotiation position while the mailman has the upper hand. We love our jobs and have a lot invested into it while the mailman does not.

Our choices are limited while the mailman could work virtually anywhere.

Skyhigh

I don't know how many interviews you have been on but I have had plenty. Everyone who goes in puts on their best face. Usually it is the best lier that gets the job. I have seen plenty of applicants savagely bad mouth the company that they were in the waiting room to interview with and walk out with an offer.

I've had quite a few interviews in my time of all kinds AND have been involved in interviewing people for all types of jobs, boards, selections, etc.... and MY experience is VERY different from yours. I guess I'll just chalk this up to another Sky'ism :rolleyes:


I have gotten every job I have ever wanted... usually 6 months after I really do not want it anymore.

Seems like you are still searching for that job. Is it right around the corner? Doubt it.
I can see from the above though why you are so bitter towards an aviation career. It seems that maybe you never really knew (or know) what you wanted; or the expectation were just terribly unrealistic. But others more knowledgable than I have made this observation before.

USMCFLYR

Word is Alaska will be hiring late fall or next spring... there ya go...

Hum... UPS doesn't have a crew base within three hours of you... and would require a commute.. so which is it.....only "certain" jobs you are willing to commute to? AND only pays about 3200 or so per month the first year.... (granted the pay spikes in year 2) ...just saying. Good luck with finding that ideal job Sky, all the best.

Word is Alaska will be hiring late fall or next spring... there ya go...

Hum... UPS doesn't have a crew base within three hours of you... and would require a commute.. so which is it.....only "certain" jobs you are willing to commute to? AND only pays about 3200 or so per month the first year.... (granted the pay spikes in year 2) ...just saying. Good luck with finding that ideal job Sky, all the best.

HercDriver130,

A man has got to dream. And if you ever get on with Alaska Airlines I sure hope you will give me a call.

Thanks !

Skyhigh

I've had quite a few interviews in my time of all kinds AND have been involved in interviewing people for all types of jobs, boards, selections, etc.... and MY experience is VERY different from yours. I guess I'll just chalk this up to another Sky'ism :rolleyes:


Seems like you are still searching for that job. Is it right around the corner? Doubt it.
I can see from the above though why you are so bitter towards an aviation career. It seems that maybe you never really knew (or know) what you wanted; or the expectation were just terribly unrealistic. But others more knowledgable than I have made this observation before.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYR,

You know the reality is that I already have a good job. It is not all that glamorous or fun but it pays the bills and provides for a good life. As things get better it becomes more difficult to think of starting over at even a dream job. I still hold out hope because you never know. Every year people I know are moving into positions of power. One day I could be a fourth quarter walk on.

However as you pointed out.... probably not.

Cordially;

Skyhigh

The post office is a government agency that is not going to go bankrupt.



This, is why our country is in the shape it is right now. Way too many people whole heartedly believe this. Not just refering to the post office.

Aren't they contemplating eliminating Saturday mail delivery? THEY'RE BROKE!!

This, is why our country is in the shape it is right now. Way too many people whole heartedly believe this. Not just refering to the post office.

Mail service falls just below defense in the list of government services. They might become unprofitable but can not go bankrupt.

From Wilkipedia:

The United States Postal Service (USPS) is an independent agency of the United States government, established in 1971 as an "independent establishment of the executive branch", responsible for providing postal service in the United States. It is one of the few government agencies explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution.

Skyhigh

nothing in the constitution says how small they can shrink to however. they absolutely NEED to cut out saturday delivery. Oh... and they are mandated also to be self sufficient thats not working out so well is it.... nearly 9 billion in debt last year ... and an underfunded pension... sounds like other WELL run business's.....

Oh... and they are mandated also to be self sufficient thats not working out so well is it.... nearly 9 billion in debt last year ... and an underfunded pension... sounds like other WELL run business's.....


If the Post Office was a business, of course, it would probably fail, be bought out, merged, etc.

Which is Sky's point. It can be run as poorly as any other business, but it's not going to "fail". Somebody has to deliver the mail, provide for the common defense, etc.

all while they shrink to profitablility... lets see.. 112,500 fewer jobs in just the past few years.... and STILL they are 8 billion in the hole this year.... FWIW... I know two guys who are mail carriers...one for about 6 years.. the other for about 20... both of them said they wouldnt wish the post office on anyone....

all while they shrink to profitablility... lets see.. 112,500 fewer jobs in just the past few years.... and STILL they are 8 billion in the hole this year.... FWIW... I know two guys who are mail carriers...one for about 6 years.. the other for about 20... both of them said they wouldnt wish the post office on anyone....

Lets switch to Grocery Store clerk then?

The whole point about using the post office as an example is that they are a common job that is universal to all points in the USA. No job is perfect. There is plenty of hardship to go around these days however I would like to restate that the careers I use in comparison to aviation require little to no training or education yet their compensation is superior to most regional flying jobs.

When it comes to flying I have a great attitude. I just don't like being taken advantage of. Flying for the regionals is a bad investment when all else has been taken into consideration. One way to measure the hardship and risk is through comparing it to other common careers.

When held to that test it becomes obvious that a new pilot today who is paying nearly 200K in college and flight training to make less than a mailman is a very bad deal.

If your friends are mail carriers then my guess is that they enjoy a similar quality of life to yours yet no college or training was required. Ask them how they would feel about their jobs if they had to pay a small fortune for the privilege.


Skyhigh

People develop tunnel vision when they have been in one career for a long time.

It is easy to become despondent or complacent when it comes to work. Pilots think they have it great once they breach 40K and forget about the fortune they spent to get there. Mailmen can complain about their jobs when really they have got it pretty good. It cost them nothing to earn their solid benefits package and middle class wages.

Pilots should earn far more for what they have to do. The mailman is going to be able to retire one day. People seem to forget that our profession is not just a playground but probably our biggest investment. As such it needs to be evaluated on its rate of return.

And when compared to most other common careers on virtually all levels it stinks. One way to make the numbers work out is if you can make it to the big time, UPS, FedEx or SWA. The problem is that there just is not room enough for most of us.

Skyhigh

Hey Sky:

There's a great thread going on in regionals about what your first flight was like on the line. Why don't you go over there and rain on everbody's parade?:D

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/22737-your-first-flight-regional-pilot-12.html#post971515:D

Regards,
Clutch

I think that first hand accounts of guy's first day on the job does not change the fact that regional jet flying is not a very good financial investment.

I can foresee that the future will have LESS good paying airline jobs, not more.

Hey Sky:

There's a great thread going on in regionals about what your first flight was like on the line. Why don't you go over there and rain on everbody's parade?:D

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/22737-your-first-flight-regional-pilot-12.html#post971515:D

Regards,
Clutch

Clutch,

This section of the forum is about "Leaving the Career".

Skyhigh

SkyHigh is clearly on the right track. If flying is your passion, as it was at one time mine, by all means stick with it. However, prepare for a life of being raped by airline managers that are one step below car salesmen. At my airline the managers sit around thinking of ways to rape the employees rather than beat the competition.

Four year degree and years in the military or years at poverty wages, for what? Flying for the majors today is a job at best. And you may not even get hired. I recommend searching elsewhere for employment.

SkyHigh is clearly on the right track. If flying is your passion, as it was at one time mine, by all means stick with it. However, prepare for a life of being raped by airline managers that are one step below car salesmen. At my airline the managers sit around thinking of ways to rape the employees rather than beat the competition.

Four year degree and years in the military or years at poverty wages, for what? Flying for the majors today is a job at best. And you may not even get hired. I recommend searching elsewhere for employment.

It seems to me that in regards to the airlines the FAA regulates the product. Manufacturers of the planes standardize the delivery system and the internet has exposed even the slightest difference in price to the consumer.

The only way for an airline to compete is thorough beating up their employees so that they can offer their tickets for $3 less than the other guy.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh is clearly on the right track. If flying is your passion, as it was at one time mine, by all means stick with it. However, prepare for a life of being raped by airline managers that are one step below car salesmen. At my airline the managers sit around thinking of ways to rape the employees rather than beat the competition.

Four year degree and years in the military or years at poverty wages, for what? Flying for the majors today is a job at best. And you may not even get hired. I recommend searching elsewhere for employment.
I apologize to car salesmen. At least they work for a living.

Yesterday a friend of mine bought me lunch so that I could sign his union experience documents. He worked for me a few years ago putting in trim and flooring. He also did some framing and concrete work. His new Union job starts out at 65K for the first two years then moves up to 85K. With overtime some make over 100K per year.

His job title is concrete finisher and the project he is on is expected to last 20 years. I do not think he even has a high school diploma. Full retirement and great benefits. Another friend recently got hired with the railroad. A similar deal. Great wages and benefits. Little training and education required.

Skyhigh

I spoke to my local post office today regarding job cuts and they told me that most of the cuts are happening in management. In fact they are hiring to replace retiring baby boomers to be primary mail carriers. They just had a test period open and will have another soon.

Skyhigh

My neighbor has the rural route contract for our village, she just bought a new Jeep Wrangler, right hand drive. Seems like she does pretty well.

Another friend recently got hired with the railroad. A similar deal. Great wages and benefits. Little training and education required.
Skyhigh

A good friend of mine works for the railroad as an engineer, and he is sick of it. We compare stories a lot and they remind me of the managerial incompetence and whip-cracking that I experience at my regional airline job. Similar work rules as well (a la RLA).

Also, my girlfriend works as a grocery store sales rep for a large food company. She works 60+, sometimes better than 70 hour weeks, and even when she gets home her work isn't done yet as she spends even more time writing and submitting orders. While she gets paid well, about 25-30% more than I do, she works extremely hard for it. And I complain about being fatigued..

I spend much of my time away from my family and friends for work, sometimes in shady hotels in places that I would never even consider visiting on my own time. I wholeheartedly agree that pilots are largely overworked and underpaid. However, I think that ANYONE that works faces this situation. Pilots are not alone in this regard. But we do have the forums to be able to b**** about it! :D

I changed careers about 11 years ago; the worst possible timing ever! I am now a 40 year old F/O at a regional; 6 years in the right seat. I as many others thought I would be farther along by now. It has been so incredibly frustrating. I had the chance to finally upgrade but passed because I don't want to commute on reserve. I work a second job to supplement the low wage I make as a pilot. I have been working 2 jobs for 10 years and I am burned out. I mean 6 years on a regional F/O salary just sucks. I feel like I have been going backwards every since I started. Going from 70K a year to regional pay is tough. I keep thinking there has got to be something better than this. So I upgrade when the big D and everyone else starts hiring; two years to get 1000/1500 PIC and hope that someone hires me. I start off all over again at the bottom. I'll be on the back side of 40 by then. Is it worth it? Not so sure anymore. Last year I was so put out I got a box that is the perfect size to load up all my company pubs and labeled it to send to the chief pilots office. I haven't done it yet. It's a lot to throw away but when is enough enough. I wouldn't be happy going back to the old gig but this isn't cutting it either.

I spoke to my local post office today regarding job cuts and they told me that most of the cuts are happening in management. In fact they are hiring to replace retiring baby boomers to be primary mail carriers. They just had a test period open and will have another soon.

Skyhigh

The USPS is not the best option. Many small post offices are under threat of closing all together, & the USPS is grossly underfunded. Here are just a few articles.

USPS reform may be on the way, but is it too late? - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/usps-reform-may-be-on-the-way-but-is-it-too-late/2011/05/27/AGMPsQLH_story.html)


NCPR News - USPS Budget Deficit May Close North Country Post Offices (http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/story/17830/20110615/usps-budget-deficit-may-close-north-country-post-offices)

USPS notifies 1,700 employees their jobs will be cut (6/17/11) -- GovExec.com (http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0611/061711l1.htm)

As a current government employee and former regional guy I'll vouch for the fact that government is taking a hit right now. I have spoken in the past about how great government jobs are(and they still are) but with all the cutbacks right now jumping into one isn't the best idea. With that said I probably wouldn't want to just be starting my aviation career right now either. With the cost of flight training it doesn't justify the return especially at the starting end. There are plenty of pilots with former 121 time and other experience waiting to see what happens in the biz with the retirements coming up. May or may not be worth taking another shot at "liv'n the dream". Everyone's got different goals in life and I know plenty of happy professional pilots... vice versa too.

The USPS is not the best option... & the USPS is grossly underfunded.

They just announced they want to terminate funding the retirement plan.

My 22 year-old son just graduated last Sunday with a Masters in Electrical Engineering and starts his first post-college job in a week: $73K plus 15% bonus, 3000 stock options/year for 4 years, full benefits and 401k. There are options for people willing to work for them. Lucky for him, he had no interest in flying.

Now, if he can just get me a job there...:D

Masters at 22...holy crap.

am perpetually searching for jobs and have done so since I was laid off.

Skyhigh be more often on the forums.

Skyhigh,

Try to be more often on the forums. Arent you cheating yourself a little bit like , ( seen from psychological point of view ) like the jobs are too far and etc....? Your honesty is moving at the forum. I will talk with aunt, you can pm at anytime. I will be honest with you too, my mum had not agreed for me to live in a country where they had offered me training and etc... so stayed with my capt cousin, she just thinks that I am too free, like in Africa -and I am not desperating financially in order to fly with a company. Maybe yes maybe not maybe I am too free. I like to fly in Africa or in cold areas, and I will never change it, because I am African as well wt bl hair. And I do not doubt in a fact you wish to fly. You should fly. Again your honesty is moving, while it is so easy to cheat me. But trust me, I still would like to fly with American at a cockpit if I can be honest and later to chat with a wife or so. Not far from a truth, people are getting crazy these days....Sorry to write in a simple way, I am not good at writing at all. Yes, you would pass the test with aunt for flying with B. Lately, so many things had happened.

hmmm, my head is still spinning from the last post :eek:

They just announced they want to terminate funding the retirement plan.

My 22 year-old son just graduated last Sunday with a Masters in Electrical Engineering and starts his first post-college job in a week: $73K plus 15% bonus, 3000 stock options/year for 4 years, full benefits and 401k. There are options for people willing to work for them. Lucky for him, he had no interest in flying.

Now, if he can just get me a job there...:D

Good luck to him. A Masters @ 22 yrs of age is quite impressive. But I don't think this is more an exception then the norm, especially if it requires a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering. This doesn't exactly sound like a entry level position.