Airline Pilot Forums

I heard from a pilot buddy yesterday, He claims an A&P friend of his says they have parked their 2 4000's because they are so un-reliable and Raytheon has come up with a fix where they bbasicly re-build the plane at a 6-8 MONTH downtime per plane!

Any other Hawker operators here having probs? We demoed one a year ago and I liked how the plane flew and was aware of some of the "fix promises" they had down the line, but I had no idea it was that bad.

Raytheon is offering lift while planes are down for the major upgrade.

Hawker 4000 set for major upgrade program: AINonline (http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/hawker-4000-set-for-major-upgrade-program-28103/)

Never flown a H4000 but got a very close tour of one by a HBC demo pilot at NBAA; nice airplane, but when you look at specs it really doesn't offer anything you couldn't get in a Falcon 50EX.

odd comparison...

odd comparison...

What, the H4000 and 50EX?

If so, why do you think its odd?

Hawker 4000 is a "brand new" plane (in theory, anyway--- minus the 12+ years of development).

The 50EX is something over a decade old and out of production for 3 years. You'd have to compare a used 50EX to a new H4000... but then you are opening up the used vs new can of worms, which I do not want to get in to!! :)


If you had said "if you look at the specs it really doesn't offer anything you couldn't get in a G250/CL300...", then I wouldn't have thought anything odd about that. :)

Compare the specs of the H4000 to the out-of-production 50EX.

About the same range, the same speed, the same altitude capability, the same cabin dimensions, the same full-fuel payload, the same systems redundancies.

Doesn't say much that a "factory new" airplane barely meets or exceeds an out-of-production airplane that's available on the used market for less than half a new H4000...let alone a CL300 or G250. Of course there's no warranty...but you're not exactly beta testing the airframe for Dassault, either.

ahh... gotcha..

I see your point now, and agree.

The H4000 would have been a great plane... in 1998! :)

The latest upgrades to the H4000 are returning it to the title of most advanced business jet. They will be completed on many in service Horizons, (lift provided while down approx 90 days) the upgrade is currently being integrated into the production line airplanes. I believe you will hear great things about post mod aircraft.

of course that's what they said about the pre mod aircraft before they actually started flying :D

The value of these upgrades is undeniable. They not only bring the plane up to the latest and greatest technologies, but they also use the experience, lessons, and problems from the first 50 aircraft in service to make any needed adjustments and improvements. These two major steps put together are bringing a very perfected business aircraft to the industry. Stay Tuned.

.............

It is my understanding that the Load 20 upgrade for the Hawker 4000 has been denied by the FAA. The Load 20 upgrade has to do with the Honeywell epic system, not the fuel modification.:(

Epic has had some software issues lately. Ask any Sovereign
Person. I wouldn't load that problem in either.
Dave

spin-off question, it seems like a lot of Premiers out there on the used marketplace.

spin-off question, it seems like a lot of Premiers out there on the used marketplace.

Fastest, biggest cabin single-pilot jet to a tech stop or service center.

Fastest, biggest cabin single-pilot jet to a tech stop or service center.


Lots of happy premier owners out there.

Lots of happy premier owners out there.

I don't doubt that; its got a fantastic cabin & top speed for its operating economics, but operationally it lacks range and payload flexibility...especially relative to its better-selling, straight-winged competition.

Its really too bad Raytheon/HBC didn't make it the Beechjet replacement it should have been years ago...17' long cabin, FL450 capability, same -3A engines as the CJ3, 1000lb full-fuel useful load and 1600nm range with that payload at 0.78M. It would have decimated CJ2+ and CJ3 sales the last half-decade had it those capabilities.

IMO, the Premier II-nee-Hawker 200 (heh) is too little airframe, too late.

I don't doubt that; its got a fantastic cabin & top speed for its operating economics, but operationally it lacks range and payload flexibility...especially relative to its better-selling, straight-winged competition.

Its really too bad Raytheon/HBC didn't make it the Beechjet replacement it should have been years ago...17' long cabin, FL450 capability, same -3A engines as the CJ3, 1000lb full-fuel useful load and 1600nm range with that payload at 0.78M. It would have decimated CJ2+ and CJ3 sales the last half-decade had it those capabilities.

IMO, the Premier II-nee-Hawker 200 (heh) is too little airframe, too late.


I read an article on the range issue. Something like 95% of flights for the average potential premier owner, are less than 850nm. So the extra range wasn't a huge issue apparently.

As the Beechjet goes, there were too many operators still wanting to buy beechjets to replace it at the time. This airframe will continue with the 400XPR.

Hawker 200 will be interesting. The range is increased over 200nm (max payload) It also sports over 1500nm with 4 pax. This meets most of the light jet markets needs, while sporting a hawker inspired cabin. While the CJ may have better T/O and landing performance, the cruise performance and cabin style and quality is in a class of it's own. (as far as light jets are concerned.)

Hawker 200 will be interesting. The range is increased over 200nm (max payload) It also sports over 1500nm with 4 pax. This meets most of the light jet markets needs, while sporting a hawker inspired cabin. While the CJ may have better T/O and landing performance, the cruise performance and cabin style and quality is in a class of it's own. (as far as light jets are concerned.)

The H200 will be going M72 to make that 1500 mile range at FL450 unless something has changed drastically sine I received all the flight planning info for it. Sounds like it will be a reasonable 1200-1300 mile airplane at a lower altitude going M80.

As for the 400XPr, it may have a little success, but I think the biggest thing to come out of the program will the Proline 21 mod and winglets and hopefully better wheels and brakes. There may be some older 400A owners who opt for the mod, but I'd be willing to bet it will be very few.

But alas my Beechjet days are growing short finally.:)

I read an article on the range issue. Something like 95% of flights for the average potential premier owner, are less than 850nm. So the extra range wasn't a huge issue apparently.

As the Beechjet goes, there were too many operators still wanting to buy beechjets to replace it at the time. This airframe will continue with the 400XPR.

Hawker 200 will be interesting. The range is increased over 200nm (max payload) It also sports over 1500nm with 4 pax. This meets most of the light jet markets needs, while sporting a hawker inspired cabin. While the CJ may have better T/O and landing performance, the cruise performance and cabin style and quality is in a class of it's own. (as far as light jets are concerned.)


I agree with Sabre-- I don't think the 2.7 million dollar mod to the 400a will be that successful.

What I don't get is why HBS keeps 'updating' old designs... they rarely come out with clean sheet design-- and when they do, it takes 15 years to come out with a relatively sub-par product- the H4000 (other than the premier, but I am talking about the larger business jet market).

Sure the 900 goes 3000nm, but it does it at .70 while the competition is doing the same at .78-.80 while at higher altitudes. But it is still an old design- weeping wings that are refilled in the cockpit, hydraulic lines at your feet by the rudder pedals, baggage in the cabin... I just don't see the advantage over the competition-- and I pass this on to my clients.

The H4000, as I have said before, is a great plane...... in 1997. Right now it is behind the competition with the CL300 and definitely the G250. We waited 15 years for a "new" HBS, and we got a 15 year old design.

Now they are 'updating' the 400a with this 2.7 million dollar mod? I can get a used Lear 45XR with low time for not much more than that... and to me, that is a better "upgrade".:cool:


I know your loyalty to HBS bc, and I am not trying to bash anyone-- I *LOVE* to see US manufacturers with superior products. I have no loyalties here, and only recommend and purchase what the best product is.

All good perspectives. It should be an interesting couple of years coming up.