Airline Pilot Forums

Hello all,

Looking for some advice here and maybe even some help! I'll start with my background. I was a Corporate Pilot for 11+ years flying Hawker 800XP's. Started as co-pilot and then closed the department in 2009 as Flight Department Manager/Chief Pilot. As many of you know this was not a good time to be on the street. Since that time I have flown single/multi engine piston for day rates, flown contract in an single turbine amphibian and some Hawker contract, although not enough to pay for school. Pretty tough couple of years to say the least. About a year ago I was lucky enough to get a job flying a B727 then was able to move to the B767. I am grateful for the job, but it pays about a third of what I used to make, with no real potential to make much more than half what I made. The quality of life, well there is none.

I very much want to get back into Corporate Aviation, but have had no luck in the past 2.5 years. I have been calling all the people in the World I know and lots I don't know, applied to every posting for pilots, no matter what type. Every once In a while I get a request for more info, via e-mail then it drops off. I am wondering if some perceive my former Flight Department Manager/Chief Pilot position a threat? It should not be, as I have had my turn, and I have to say I enjoy just doing my duty and going home. Also, I'm wondering if my 121 time in big aircraft is hurting me. I know the international flying has been good for me as far as procedures go. I though it might help me find a job in a Gulfstream or Global Express, but I'm not sure you can actually get a job in a Gulfstream unless you have already flown it. Chicken or the egg argument, I just don't know.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I just need some constructive input.
My total time is 9000 hours, 3300 jet, 2700 PIC turbine typed in HS-125,B737,B757,B767. SIC type in BE400,B727

Thanks in advance

There just isn't a ton of corporate work out there to be had...especially if you don't have an extensive network that has been maintained & expanded over the last few years.

Good luck!

I would guess all those B7XX type ratings may scare off some people, fearful that if they get you aboard, you'll run off to the airlines when the "Great Pilot Shortage" really hits.

Not sure what to offer you other than to stay persistent, and try to meet folks face-to-face so you at least have an opportunity to convince them that you really do want a corporate flying job. Sounds like you've made some calls already. Maybe make them again just to keep your name fresh in everyone's mind, or go out in person.

Sorry, wish I had a silver bullet for you.

Thanks Mink,

I actually have two versions of my resume. One shows big airplanes and former Flight Department Manager/Chief Pilot and the other shows only Hawker type and NO management experience. I really don't like using the latter as it is not an accurate picture of who I am. I do understand people being worried I'll run off during he upcomming pilot shortage, ha,ha. I'm more worried people will feel threatened by my former position, how do I convey that I've had my turn in the pressure cooker and they can have it, not to say I would not step up and help IF asked. I really would like to hear from current Chief Pilots thoughts on these matters. I know when we looked for pilots, we would talk to former airline types if they did not have recall rights. We hired the person, not the type rating on the pilot certificate. These days people are only concerned about the applicant having the required type and be current. Seems like a good way to get a sour apple into the cart! It only takes one of those to make a real mess, just ask me how I know!

Thanks Mink,

I actually have two versions of my resume. One shows big airplanes and former Flight Department Manager/Chief Pilot and the other shows only Hawker type and NO management experience. I really don't like using the latter as it is not an accurate picture of who I am. I do understand people being worried I'll run off during he upcomming pilot shortage, ha,ha. I'm more worried people will feel threatened by my former position, how do I convey that I've had my turn in the pressure cooker and they can have it, not to say I would not step up and help IF asked. I really would like to hear from current Chief Pilots thoughts on these matters. I know when we looked for pilots, we would talk to former airline types if they did not have recall rights. We hired the person, not the type rating on the pilot certificate. These days people are only concerned about the applicant having the required type and be current. Seems like a good way to get a sour apple into the cart! It only takes one of those to make a real mess, just ask me how I know!
First bold: A resume isn't a truth telling document. It is a short sales pitch to highlight your qualification to a prospective employer. Not everything has to be on a resume. Someone with years of flying experience very well might not be able to fit all jobs and experience on a single page (or even two). The untruthfulness would come if they asked you questions about experience and you lied about it.

Second bold: That is a great sentiment and certainly the way we all WISH it could be I suspect, but you'll have to consider how the business feels who spends hard capital on training and doesn't realize a return on the investment if the prosepctive employee runs for the next opportunity. The business side of it can be at opposite ends of the *ideal* side of it and they seem to rarely meet.

USMCFLYR

There's actually quite a bit of work out there...but people are looking for experienced guys in Falcons/Gulfstreams/Globals....I have also seen Aviation Manager position in similar equipment. I have talked to people very recently who simply cant find qualified people, as they want experienced International PICs in the above aircraft...current or not.

I would suspect the issue may not be your Boeing time, but more likely your location and your lack of desirable ratings?

I would also NOT have 2 resumes. It would not be good to dig up stuff during an interview...like that you were hiding being a Chief Pilot?....:confused::confused:....just be truthful.

Good Luck!

Agree with NowCorporate, there's work but all at the top end of the business. Hawker/Citation/Lear end of the market got killed the last three years and hasn't shown any signs of life yet.

GF

Flint Stone…
Have you considered employment outside the US? There are some financially rewarding opportunities in Europe, the Middle East and Asia. Some contracts offer, for example between 45 an 60 days on duty, and 30 day of which an economy ticket home. This type of arrangement may be a compromise where a family is involved. You can maintain your career, and earn a respectable wage greater than the minimum wage that some companies pay in the US.

Good experience, not just flying wise, but a great way to see the world on someone else’s Nickel, Euro, or whatever. Not to mention overseas postings look pretty good on the CV too.

ACASS of Montreal is a fairly large employment agency that specializes in corporate pilot job placements. There are others in Swords, just north of Dublin such as PARC, Contractair, Sigmar. You can google them and contact a representative over the phone for more information.

All the best…

captjns,

Yes, I was actually hired by Jet Asia, Macau, as CP back in 2009 over a 6 Hawker fleet. Went over, interviewed, signed the emploment contract came home to pack then received an e-mail stating contract cancelled. This was due to some rule changes by China. So yes, I have and will still consider overseas. My only problem is I'm more than 12 months current on the Hawker. I really need to find a path to the Gulfstream or Global because as previously stated, those aircraft have not experienced the down turn like the little airplanes. I was hopeful that the 72 and 76 time would help, but so far no luck.
Any ideas galaxy flyer.

I wonder if Walmart still needs a greeter?

Sign up for and find a way to attend the Bombardier Safety Standdown and other corporate aviation events. Take business cards and network- trade cards and recontact the people to chat up and meet/develop a relationship with immediately following the event. Send them a follow up email with your resume, but don't pass them out at the event itself.

Just doing that got me several call back and 4 interview offers in the 3-4 months after last years event (I turned them all down since I had subsequently accepted a job).

Safety Standdown: Aviation Safety Seminars and Online Resources | Safety Standdown (http://www.safetystanddown.com)

Register soon and commit to the event. Spots fill up QUICKLY.

Sign up for and find a way to attend the Bombardier Safety Standdown and other corporate aviation events. Take business cards and network- trade cards and recontact the people to chat up and meet/develop a relationship with immediately following the event. Send them a follow up email with your resume, but don't pass them out at the event itself.

Just doing that got me several call back and 4 interview offers in the 3-4 months after last years event (I turned them all down since I had subsequently accepted a job).

Safety Standdown: Aviation Safety Seminars and Online Resources | Safety Standdown (http://www.safetystanddown.com)

Register soon and commit to the event. Spots fill up QUICKLY.




Thanks Flyer Josh, that's a new angle for me to attack!

Out of curiousity, where in the US are you located and are you willing to move?

Out of curiousity, where in the US are you located and are you willing to move?


I am located near Tampa, Florida and I am flying the 76 out of Miami, so I spend most of my time there. I am ready to move, actually looking forward to it. If you have anymore ideas, please run them by me as I've run out.

Thanks again to all who replied for the suggestions!

You aren't related to "Keith Stone" are you:D Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Serious note, another resource are aircraft management companies/individuals. I ran into a guy several years ago out of the Milwaulkee area that was managing 6 different companies aircraft, and he had a handful of pilots that worked for him. Sorry I can't remember the name, been awhile.

Honestly, I think these guys are hit and miss as anything else out there, but it could just be your shot getting back in.

The NBAA is in Vegas this year. That would be a great place to rustle up some contacts and get your name out there. Good Luck

You aren't related to "Keith Stone" are you:D Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Serious note, another resource are aircraft management companies/individuals. I ran into a guy several years ago out of the Milwaulkee area that was managing 6 different companies aircraft, and he had a handful of pilots that worked for him. Sorry I can't remember the name, been awhile.

Honestly, I think these guys are hit and miss as anything else out there, but it could just be your shot getting back in.


That's ok, I when I joined Airline Pilot Central I had just started flying the 727... and after flying Collins Proline 21 avionics, well, that's all I could come up with. Uh, Oh now I've done it:)... Be very careful what you wish for, about 4 years ago we started to demo super midsize aircraft for our then thriving flight department. I mentioned to one of the sales guys that its too bad that I never had the chance (past tense) to work in a 727. Well, I really hope my next statment had something to do with winning the lottery.

I have talked with several aircraft management companies, and like the rest of the small jet operators their business is down as well.

Keep the Ideas comming, it's almost like therapy!

The NBAA is in Vegas this year. That would be a great place to rustle up some contacts and get your name out there. Good Luck
I plan to attend, never missed one back in the good ole Corporte days. Can I buy you a beer?

Won't be there this year but I hear there a more jobs out there than in previous years. Good Luck!

Keep an eye on CAE/ Simuflite. They occasionally post for a Hawker instructor. Actually have an opening for an "On call" one in Morristown, NJ now.
You can hope for a full time, then transition to Gulfstream, or Falcon, or Cessna.
Also, they don't mind if you fly on the side. (Make good contacts while instructing) Pay is good too.

captjns,

Yes, I was actually hired by Jet Asia, Macau, as CP back in 2009 over a 6 Hawker fleet. Went over, interviewed, signed the emploment contract came home to pack then received an e-mail stating contract cancelled. This was due to some rule changes by China. So yes, I have and will still consider overseas. My only problem is I'm more than 12 months current on the Hawker. I really need to find a path to the Gulfstream or Global because as previously stated, those aircraft have not experienced the down turn like the little airplanes. I was hopeful that the 72 and 76 time would help, but so far no luck.
Any ideas galaxy flyer.

I wonder if Walmart still needs a greeter?

Have you tried to get your resume to Google? They operate a 757 and a 767 just north of SJC on Moffett field. The 57 came from the place I used to work and the pilots "did not" go with it. The other 757 was just purchased by Donald Trump and is having the interior re-ragged in LA. I believe there are 2 professional sports teams that have 57s as well.

I'm on it, thanks!

I'm on it, thanks!

In fact a friend of mine does do contract 57 flying and he does his recurrent up here in Seattle at the place in the link below. Check it out, it looks like they are hiring as well.

Premairflighttraining (http://premairflighttraining.com/flight-training/boeing-757-767-recurrent/)

In fact a friend of mine does do contract 57 flying and he does his recurrent up here in Seattle at the place in the link below. Check it out, it looks like they are hiring as well.

Premairflighttraining (http://premairflighttraining.com/flight-training/boeing-757-767-recurrent/)

Thanks again, but it's moving me in the wrong direction. I would like to get back to Corporate aviation. I was hoping the Boeing time would help with the large cabin Corporate operators, just no luck yet and not sure it will help!

I did hear from a CP last week that I've been communicating with for the past few months, that my former CP position could have been construed as a threat. Also since I'm flying part 121 now, they felt that I would run to the airlines in the next pilot shortage. So... I didn't get the job, even though I have nearly 3000 hours in type and really wanted that position.

Man this stinks!

Thanks again, but it's moving me in the wrong direction. I would like to get back to Corporate aviation. I was hoping the Boeing time would help with the large cabin Corporate operators, just no luck yet and not sure it will help!

I did hear from a CP last week that I've been communicating with for the past few months, that my former CP position could have been construed as a threat. Also since I'm flying part 121 now, they felt that I would run to the airlines in the next pilot shortage. So... I didn't get the job, even though I have nearly 3000 hours in type and really wanted that position.

Man this stinks!

I hear ya. I went through similar issues when I left the airlines. Some flight departments just dont want to risk hiring an airline guy. Sounds like you have the right idea with the dumbed down resume version. Just show the capacity you worked in but leave out the department manager reference and hopefully you can get in for an interview and show them that your not out to take over the world -- you just want a job.

I still wouldnt shun the big jet stuff though. There are quite a few jobs in those abroad if you have any interest in doing that kind of thing. I believe ACASS out of Montreal deals with the heavy corporate stuff on occasion.

Some flight departments just dont want to risk hiring an airline guy.

Why is this. I have been trying to break into the corprate world for years and no joy at all. Any advice on breaking in? I have tried Flight Saftey and CAE but those guys are not hiring unless you are already typed right now.

There are quite a few jobs in those abroad if you have any interest in doing that kind of thing.

Where. I applied for a Gulfstream Job in China. They quit hiring non typed pilots for it and hired only 1 of 14 that interviewed. He was typed on the GV. I was ready to pay for my GV type for the job. It paid slightly south of 200k. If you are looking for details on it just pm me.

Any intel or advice on getting an initial type on a Gulfstream or Global. I am willing to work anywhere for one of those aircraft. I would go overseas for the right job on any other plane.

Why is this. I have been trying to break into the corprate world for years and no joy at all. Any advice on breaking in? I have tried Flight Saftey and CAE but those guys are not hiring unless you are already typed right now.

I know folks hired by CAE and FSI in the last few months to instruct in large-cabin bizjet programs without having a type in the model they will be teaching.

This is going to sound harsh, but:

You either aren't competitive, or they can see you are applying in order to get a rating and will split at the very first flying job you can get.

Which is why a lot of corporate operators are leery of hiring airline pilots.

As for "breaking in"....networking is the best possible thing you can do.

That, and a willingness to "settle" for something smaller than the two largest ultra-long range airframes in existance.

I think you missed the first part of exchange with the other poster. When I said big aircraft I meant the real big aircraft like BBJs and corporate heavys not Gulfstreams and Globals. Those jobs are hard to come by anywhere in the world. It's almost 5 times more expensive to get a G550 type a it is to get a 737NG.

Most of us on here would like to fly the premier corporate jets but you don't just walk into those jobs unless you were extremely lucky. Not sure what you are coming out of but there are a lot of other airframes that you can look at which pay pretty well.

Any intel or advice on getting an initial type on a Gulfstream or Global. I am willing to work anywhere for one of those aircraft.

Why the obsession with the Gulfstream or Global? Please dont think that means the job/pay is better? Its not that simple. I know Hawker and Citation pilots who make more than Gulfstream pilots.....is that the norm?? NO...but you get the point.

And please know, the willingness to pay for your own 50K school would make me think you are a complete nutjob and I'd never even interview you. I also would be concerned that you are willing to go anywhere, anyhow, to fly these airplanes. Strange $hit IMHO.

You are doing this all wrong.

Good Luck.

I also would be concerned that you are willing to go anywhere, anyhow, to fly these airplanes.

This is very true in my experience. In my younger years I was pretty open to just about working anywhere and ended up keeping the same crappy job for way too long. Now that I have more stability(married & homeowner) in my life it seems that job offers are easier to come by. I know these things shouldn't play a part in hiring and if they do I'd imagine it would be illegal some how, but I have a feeling Flight department managers like stability in a pilot.

This is very true in my experience. In my younger years I was pretty open to just about working anywhere and ended up keeping the same crappy job for way too long. Now that I have more stability(married & homeowner) in my life it seems that job offers are easier to come by. I know these things shouldn't play a part in hiring and if they do I'd imagine it would be illegal some how, but I have a feeling Flight department managers like stability in a pilot.

Agree.

Definitely plays a role in hiring, and cant see how its illegal?...most people want to hire stable, normal people with lives/interests. I don't care if you are single or don't have kids etc...but please, have some sense of stability.

Put it this way....how many career contract go anywhere Gulfstream/Global Gods would you put in the "normal" category....not a single one I have ever met.

Then again, there are plenty of oddball departments/jobs out there...so theres something for everyone!

:)

Why the obsession with the Gulfstream or Global? Please dont think that means the job/pay is better? Its not that simple. I know Hawker and Citation pilots who make more than Gulfstream pilots.....is that the norm?? NO...but you get the point.


The average pay is higher. The number of jobs that are advertised for Gulfstreams is high however you need to be typed with experience already to be considered for most of them.


And please know, the willingness to pay for your own 50K school would make me think you are a complete nutjob Good Luck.

You are right about the nutjob. Even my family thinks so. I am also a team player and a good pilot. Everyone of us is looking for their last job as an aviator. I would like my next one to be my last one too. I am not going to bounce from a good job. Paying for the type was requiered for consideraton in China. Part of the contract was that you recieved it back incrementally over the contract. You bounce and they keep your money. Finish the contract and they gave you nearly 100K at the end of it to Re sign. I would still take this offer for any of the jets they operate. The pay was very good. They stopped hiring non typed pilots at my interview.

What should I do to break away from the 121 into a good flight department. I am willing to move almost anywhere.

I know folks hired by CAE and FSI in the last few months to instruct in large-cabin bizjet programs without having a type in the model they will be teaching.

This is going to sound harsh, but:

You either aren't competitive, or they can see you are applying in order to get a rating and will split at the very first flying job you can get.


Where were they hired. I am in DFW and the locations here are not considering pilots who are not typed on those jets right now. They have in the past. I would love to be a career instructor on a great airframe that I could go do contract work on occasionally. When were your friends hired?


This is going to sound harsh, but:

You either aren't competitive, or they can see you are applying in order to get a rating and will split at the very first flying job you can get.


What is competitive? I have 6.5K TT. ATP and 1 type rating. Good FAA record. I am willing to stay for any duration of time for a good job.

Where were they hired. I am in DFW and the locations here are not considering pilots who are not typed on those jets right now. They have in the past. I would love to be a career instructor on a great airframe that I could go do contract work on occasionally. When were your friends hired?

MMU
TEB
ICT
TOL
...and DFW

All in the last 18 months, some as recently as last month.

What is competitive? I have 6.5K TT. ATP and 1 type rating. Good FAA record. I am willing to stay for any duration of time for a good job.

Your total time is competitive, your flight experience flying a regional jet between long runways with ILS really is not...especially for a position operating large-cabin long range aircraft. And I say that as a former RJ pilot myself. Another strike against you is you don't appear to have any kind of network developed...which is always THE single biggest problem airline pilots have when going to corporate.

The similarities between airline and corporate flying pretty much end at 'flying the plane', and while nothing is particularly hard or rocket science about bizav, it can be a difficult transition for someone to go from an "operating" mindset into a "service industry" mindset where you are maintenance control, dispatch, baggage agents, and sometimes caterers and/or FA.

If that stuff not an issue for you, that needs to be stressed during any potential interview...along with why its not an issue. And remember, you can't BS a BSer.

You keep saying "good job". What exactly do you consider a "good job"?

Pay? Benefits? Location? Stability? Work environment? Passenger/owner/management attitude? Destinations? Maintenance?

The average pay is higher. The number of jobs that are advertised for Gulfstreams is high however you need to be typed with experience already to be considered for most of them.




The pay often IS NOT higher, and the Gulfstream crowd hates to admit that. They do anything to fly one. I know more than one large department that starts people around 80K in Gulfstreams.

Also, good jobs are not advertised, so stop worrying about that. The are had from friends and connections established over the years. You lack here right now.

Concentrate your effort on the personal side of this. Make some contacts, get to know people, be known as a good guy. Basically, network. Its great you want to go from an RJ right into a G550 and are looking for anyway to do it (FSI, China etc) but thats just not how it works 99.99% of the time.Tell us how you have networked?

Put it this way....if I was to hire someone to fly our GLEX/Gxxx/DA7X...etc....I would CERTAINLY hire a known good guy with some soild PIC time in a Citation before a guy who went to China for a year on some odd contract and who happens to be rated in a G550. I'm not sure why pilots think the wall in their way is the rating. Its the largest myth and excuse in our industry. It's the whole package. Good jobs want to hire stable, known people....they dont care about a type rating.

And as far as hiring a sim instructor? - dont think CAE/FSI makes you marketable. Sim time is useless and sim instructors are not held in very high regard by most department managers (not that they are held in low regard, mind you) If these guys see the plane once a year as an observer thats big. I have been involved in a fair amount of corporate hiring for large and small departments and we only ever hired one sim instructor..and he had TONS of other experience (corp-major airline) Nobody wants to hire sim or SIC time. They want to hire someone who has been out there on thier own making decisions without dispatch or Ops telling them if they can go and how much fuel they can have.

I'd stick with one avenue (instructor or pilot) and get into ANY corporate gig that fits you....go fly a Navajo, a King Air, whatever. You ask how to make the change from 121 to corporate? - well...go get a corporate job!

Good Luck.

NowCorporate

I'm not sure why pilots think the wall in their way is the rating. Its the largest myth and excuse in our industry. It's the whole package. Good jobs want to hire stable, known people....they dont care about a type rating.


That is solid gold truth. Everyone thinks that a rating is the key, and truth be told, it isn't in the Top 3 requirements.

Top 3, IMO:

First, can he/she fly a plane well and pass the rating course.

Second, can we trust him with our people and do all the elements of the job competently and cheerfully. Yes, being likable is a factor.

Third, can we go out for two weeks, across the globe, and come back friends. A lot of the flying can be difficult, stressful and full of change; one needs to roll with the punches. That doesn't mean ignoring the rules; it means diplomatically getting the job done within them. Sometimes you have to say no and have an alternative plan.

A resume and a little background knowledge (a trusted reference, personal knowledge) answers number one.

The interview does number two and three. The company HR program will vet whether the candidate is honest, trustworthy with company matters and property. Any one hiring for a $50 million plane can do the required background checking in today's world, but personal knowledge and comfort is vital. My current position was the result entirely of personal contacts and references. It's a good one, I ain't leaving.

For the candidate, find out all you can about the department. Inquire, a lot. You need to know what they do, who they are and understand you won't change it. Visits, with an appointment; help, as several casual conversations, where you only express your interest in them and who you are can be far more valuable than the interview. They see you in an unguarded setting and you see them the same. If you don't like international flying and all they talk about their last visit to Beijing, you won't be happy and getting the job maybe a bad idea, however much you want it. If they go to the same two cities 90% of the time and you're itching to see the wild blue yonder, maybe not, unless the experience is too good to pass on.

If the guys are all ex-military, chances are the next hire will be military and vice versa for all civilian. No offense, but it seems that way. It is more a matter of comfort and common experience, than competence. I have seen many departments (a feature, not a bug of my job) and entirely civilian ones run by an airline furloughee can, and are, just as good as one run the 89th Airlift Wing. Two-pilot shops can, and are, every bit as professional as the Fortune 50 department with 6 planes and 30 pilots. It is a matter of department leadership and the relationship with the ultimate Boss.

GF

Not the Gulfstream 100! :p