Airline Pilot Forums

I did my private pilot training at a part 141 school that had examining authority. As a result we never officially took any FAA checkrides, but we had end of course stage checks which we were awarded a certificate after if we passed. I got my private pilots license in 2006 but managed to fail my End of Course check five times due to being young and dumb, and having some bad luck with illness around that time. I was always told by the school not to worry about it because they didn't count as checkrides and I would never have to report them. After those 5 failures I never failed a checkride or stage check again all the way through training.

I'm finding in interviews and on airline applications now that they're counting end of course failures as checkride failures contrary to what I was always told by the flight schools. It's been 6 years since my last failure and I've flown 1200 hours since that point with a good student pass rate and good reviews from every job I've worked.

Is there any way it's still possible for me to get an airline job having to log 5 private pilot end of course failures and is there anything I can do to help my case? I've been rejected everywhere I've applied so far with 1200 total 140 multi presumably due to the failures.

I've been rejected everywhere I've applied so far with 1200 total 140 multi presumably due to the failures.

Have you interviewed and been rejected, or are you not getting invited to the interview?

If you're interviewing, how are you presenting the stage check failures (and does that jive with the information on the application)?

I've had one interview with eagle and logged them as end of course failures (which is what is written in my logbooks). Eagle kicked me out saying that they wanted them logged as checkride failures. If I log five checkride failures I doubt I'll get another iterview with them. Most other companies have just denied me without an interview. On the applications I've logged them as end of course failures.

Airlines will consider an EOC check as a checkride if the examiner had authority to issue you a pilot cert.

So from an airline perspective, you have 5 checkride failures which is not good news at all.

How old are you? If you were much over 20 when this happened, I don't see a bright airline future in the near-term.This is just my opinion.

The airlines are going to see someone who...

1) Probably had a serious lack of motivation, work ethic, and maybe ability.
2) Did not learn from his mistakes after the first failure or two.
3) Would be a plaintiff attorney's wet dream when suing the airline after an accident. Even if you did a complete 180 and are a great pilot and employee today, that record will be hanging over the company's head forever. They do take this into account, especially after that mess with colgan.

Possible good news...if you have an otherwise spotless record you might be able to overcome this in the long term. But you will need to work your way up through CFI, 135, and corporate aviation and maybe in 10-15 years have a shot at the airlines if you still want it. You will need to be able to maintain a clean checkride record and be able to explain your situation. Unfortunately you might still get eliminated by the computer application screening...five checkride busts is just really off the scale in this industry.

I guess the airlines don't feel this way but I think there are pretty major differences between a checkride failure and an end of course failure. Mainly with checkride failures if you bust slow flight you only have to redo slow flight. On our end of course failures you would repeat the entire checkride after a bust on one item and we could fail a totally different item the second time.

After two failures we were required to wait a semester in school before a third attempt so after two failures we wait 6 months and take the whole check over again. Finally the biggest reason I think they're different is that the check pilot mentality at my school was "it's just a stage check. This will never count against you." They would fail people on tiny things that a DPE would never fail a guy on because they said our stage checks didn't matter.

The airlines may see them as checkride failures but I really feel like we're being discriminated against because of that. My record is 100% clean other than those failures.

Mainly with checkride failures if you bust slow flight you only have to redo slow flight. On our end of course failures you would repeat the entire checkride after a bust on one item and we could fail a totally different item the second time.
Sounds like a great selling point for P61.

After two failures we were required to wait a semester in school before a third attempt so after two failures we wait 6 months and take the whole check over again. Finally the biggest reason I think they're different is that the check pilot mentality at my school was "it's just a stage check. This will never count against you." They would fail people on tiny things that a DPE would never fail a guy on because they said our stage checks didn't matter.
Sounds like a great way to keep you hanging around school paying to keep current. More money for the school. More debt for you.

The airlines may see them as checkride failures but I really feel like we're being discriminated against because of that. My record is 100% clean other than those failures.
Discrimination? You signed up for the school, bought into the advertising, trusted the professors/teachers, and bought hook, line, and sinker into what many call of this forum at least one of the greatest disservices to the airline industry. Sounds to me like a serious life lesson.

I don't know the answer to your question regarding the EOC failures. I've seen posted on the forum numerous times from some fairly experience people in the field saying the same thing that rickair said. If you EOC would have resulted in the issuance of a license upon successful completion - then it was a checkride. What else could it be if you would have gotten the PPL?

If this is your chosen field then best of luck to you rcfd. Don't take no for an answer and hope for the best in the industry to help your cause.

USMCFLYR

I'm not looking for pity. I went to that flight school because it was attached to a very good college. I got a degree while getting my ratings through the school. Of course I wish they wouldn't have lied to me about what end of course failures actually meant later in my career, but it's entirely possible that they didn't even know. Most people there were older career instructors and college professors with no airline experience.

I guess I'm just looking for some advice from people on what my next move in this industry can be if the airlines are out of the question. I've gone through most of my training and short aviation career assuming I would flight instruct and eventually move up to the airlines. I do enjoy instructing, but it's not something I want to do for a long term career. The main reason I love flying is because I love to travel and see new places. I don't get to do much of that when I flight instruct.

What kinds of flying jobs will accept people with a lot of checkride failures? I currently have no criminal record, no driving violations, have never been fired from a job and have about 1,000 hours dual given with a good student pass rate and actively fly at least 50 hours a month. Other than the private pilot checkride failures my record isn't too bad.

What kinds of flying jobs will accept people with a lot of checkride failures? I currently have no criminal record, no driving violations, have never been fired from a job and have about 1,000 hours dual given with a good student pass rate and actively fly at least 50 hours a month. Other than the private pilot checkride failures my record isn't too bad.

Yes, your school lied to you, that's what most larger flight schools do...lie to people who know nothing aviation so as to better separate them from their money. They are not in the aviation or training business, they are in the lying business...and it can be pretty lucrative if you have what it takes (a lack of ethics and empathy).

Career-wise, your quickest path is probably going to be 135 to get some turbine PIC and then work into corporate aviation. Corporate is all about who you know and your reputation...they are less inclined to dig into the past too much although some of the best corporate employers are at least as picky as airlines. But with corporate if you know someone you will at least get to explain yourself in the interview.

You didn't say how old you were when this happened...hopefully 20 or younger. If you 25+ even I would have serious reservations because someone that age should have had enough maturity and awareness to either the fix the problem after one or two busts, or find a new school. Going back again and again to a school which is taking a baseball-bat to headlights of your career raises doubts about your judgement.

If the company asks for FAA check rides failures, I wouldn't think 141 checks count. The flight school would be the only one to have these records. You must have filled out IACRA or 8710. What did you put "have you previously failed a practical test for this certificate"?

If the company asks for FAA check rides failures, I wouldn't think 141 checks count. The flight school would be the only one to have these records. You must have filled out IACRA or 8710. What did you put "have you previously failed a practical test for this certificate"?

You're wrong. Airlines don't care about the FAA definition of a checkride, they only care if you performed up to standards under pressure.

There is no FAA record of 141 failures (yet, although that is supposed to change due to the colgan incident) but your logbook paints a clear enough picture in most cases. Read about the OP's experience with Eagle.

If the company asks for FAA check rides failures, I wouldn't think 141 checks count. The flight school would be the only one to have these records. You must have filled out IACRA or 8710. What did you put "have you previously failed a practical test for this certificate"?

You're wrong. Airlines don't care about the FAA definition of a checkride, they only care if you performed up to standards under pressure.

There is no FAA record of 141 failures (yet, although that is supposed to change due to the colgan incident) but your logbook paints a clear enough picture in most cases. Read about the OP's experience with Eagle.

So if they want to see "if you performed up to standards under pressure", wouldn't all 141 stage checks count as well?

I specifically asked someone at Eagle during my interview, and he laughed and said they don't count. I know if you ask multiple people, I'm sure you get different answers. All I'm saying is that it is a grey area.

So if they want to see "if you performed up to standards under pressure", wouldn't all 141 stage checks count as well?

I specifically asked someone at Eagle during my interview, and he laughed and said they don't count. I know if you ask multiple people, I'm sure you get different answers. All I'm saying is that it is a grey area.

It is a grey area, but it is usually applied the way I described.

The problem with this grey area is that you have to take a big chance to take advantage of it...you have to indicate zero failures on your application without knowing for sure how the interviewer is going to view it.

If you indicate no failures even if you had multiple 141 busts and the interviewer doesn't see it your way (the majority opinion) you will get shown the door 5 minutes after he opens your logbook.

On the other hand if you indicate a bunch of busts on an application that could easily prevent you from ever getting called.

You could always "lose" your logbook, but that is often an interview-killer in-and-of itself...too much potential for fraud and cover-up if they can't review the original books.

There is no FAA record of 141 failures (yet, although that is supposed to change due to the colgan incident) but your logbook paints a clear enough picture in most cases. Read about the OP's experience with Eagle.

This is correct in my experience. I never had to mark down on IACRA that I failed a checkride, and my FAA record shows me having a 100% pass rate. Airlines want me to list the failures though and they look at my logbook which shows the failures. I can't really hide it.


You didn't say how old you were when this happened...hopefully 20 or younger.

I was 18 for the first failure and probably 19 by the last one because I had to wait 6 months between them. I was a freshman in college at the time. I'm 24 now and have worked as a full time CFI for the last two years since graduating from college.

I was 18 for the first failure and probably 19 by the last one because I had to wait 6 months between them. I was a freshman in college at the time. I'm 24 now and have worked as a full time CFI for the last two years since graduating from college.

That works in your favor. Get some solid CFI and ME time (like 2000 TT and 300+ ME) or maybe just go 135. Then try to make connections at regionals, if somebody knows you and will go to bat for you, then you may be able to get an interview. Some companies (like eagle) may just have their rules, but others (like SKW and many smaller outfits) are more willing to look at you as an individual.

However...with that record, you will need to be pretty good overall. You will want people to think "what a great candidate" and be willing to bend rules or go to bat to get you on board.

Also take FULL responsibility for YOUR failures. Do even hint at shifting blame to the school, your instructor, the examiner, your girlfriend, your cat, etc. Trust Me.

Also you should probably do an honest self-appraisal of your piloting ability. It's possible that due to being young, immature, and new to aviation that you just let things get out of hand. But if you actually have to struggle just to be a mediocre GA pilot...well, your odds in 121 will not be that good. 121 training is harder than anything you've done before in aviation, and you need to keep a clean record going forward. Be sure you are up to it before you waste a lot of time pursuing it.

Just to add my 2 cents, before the Colgan crash, many 141 schools would treat the EOC failures as no big deal because they were not reportable. It only showed up in the schools record and was not sent to the FAA. As of NOW that is still the case, however due to the Colgan crash the latest advisory circular covering PRIA is not requiring but is recommending that airlines ask for training records from flight schools and also recommending to the schools to provide them and a lot of schools out of ignorance or fear of litigation are giving them up which means the airlines are seeing everything that the school kept track of, including stage check failures. Although lately it seems most just care about EOC checkrides.

Just to add my 2 cents, before the Colgan crash, many 141 schools would treat the EOC failures as no big deal because they were not reportable. It only showed up in the schools record and was not sent to the FAA. As of NOW that is still the case, however due to the Colgan crash the latest advisory circular covering PRIA is not requiring but is recommending that airlines ask for training records from flight schools and also recommending to the schools to provide them and a lot of schools out of ignorance or fear of litigation are giving them up which means the airlines are seeing everything that the school kept track of, including stage check failures. Although lately it seems most just care about EOC checkrides.

Unbelievable. Only the FAA could pull a short-sighted stunt like this. Why couldn't they just wait for the law to change?

PRIA as federal law is mandatory, no guessing, no grey area, and nobody gets sued for compliance.

An AC which is ADVISORY puts the school in hard spot...if they don't comply or only provide some records they could get sued by an airline's insurance company after an accident. Let me rephrase that...they WOULD be sued.

But if a student does not get hired, he could turn around and sue the school too, unless he signed a release first.

I don't like the fact that some 141 students with impressive EOC failure records can sometimes slip through the cracks, but I don't think that every 141 stage check should be scrutinized either. Thanks FAA.

Let's take a look at the questions before we start (too late) debating what and what isnt a checkride failure.

Question 1 on the Eagle Addendum says " Have you ever received a notice of disapproval from an FAA Inspector or FAA designated examiner for failure of an FAA Oral, Practical, or Flight test?"

Without getting to much into the English language, that question is pretty specific with what it is asking. It is NOT asking about failed checkrides, stage checks, prof checks, momma checks, etc. It is ONLY asking if you have "received a notice of disapproval." All the rest is doing is asking under what conditions the notice of disapproval has been issued. If he went to a part 141 school, then he has never been issued a Notice of Disapproval. Period. End of question. If everyone beats their chests about not reading into questions, this is about as clear as it can be. Did he ever receive a notice of disapproval? No.

Question 3 is equally clear and would be where part 141 failures should go. " Have you ever received an unsatisfactory evaluation during any pilot training, testing, or checking event?"

Well that right there is clear as can be. Part 141 failures clearly have written "Lesson XYZ EOC unsatisfactory." Therefore, part 141 and 61 aside, if ever he failed a lesson or checkride, then question 3 would be a yes.


The thing is, people are getting wrapped up in this "failed checkride" question. However, if you actually READ the questions, there are 2 VERY distinct questions being asked. One about a notice of disapproval and one about failed testing/checking event. And since everyone on here says the best thing to do is answer the questions as to what they are asking and not read anything into it, I would say that if a person only took 141 checkrides and failed a few, question 1 would be "No" and question 3 would be "yes."

Unbelievable. Only the FAA could pull a short-sighted stunt like this. Why couldn't they just wait for the law to change?

PRIA as federal law is mandatory, no guessing, no grey area, and nobody gets sued for compliance.

An AC which is ADVISORY puts the school in hard spot...if they don't comply or only provide some records they could get sued by an airline's insurance company after an accident. Let me rephrase that...they WOULD be sued.

But if a student does not get hired, he could turn around and sue the school too, unless he signed a release first.

I don't like the fact that some 141 students with impressive EOC failure records can sometimes slip through the cracks, but I don't think that every 141 stage check should be scrutinized either. Thanks FAA.
What would the student be sueing the school over?

Almost sounds like the type of situation where your CO tells you to do something "when you the get the chance". You know darn well that means NOW!

What you usually say seems to be very easily defined.
If the flight would result in the issuance of a license - it is reportable.
Why would that / should that be different for 61 or 141?

USMCFLYR

What would the student be sueing the school over?

I think it depends on whether we're talking about a small flight school or a large university. If a small flight school gave your employer your records I don't think there's much a student can do about it. As far as I know there aren't many laws that govern what they can and cannot give out.

A college program however would be prevented by law to give out records without written consent of the student. My parents aren't even allowed to see my records from my college flight school or my transcripts unless I give written consent allowing them to do so. If a college gives out your records to an employer without consent, and there's no regulation from the FAA saying that it's mandatory that they do, the student is probably liable to sue.

I believe that's why rickair says that the FAA shouldn't "recommend" that flight schools give out those records. Without it being a regulation, some schools probably can't legally give out the records and it will cause a lot of legal hassle. PRIA is a regulation. I can't prevent an employer from seeing that if I want the job. An advisory circular recommending that my flight school give out my records is a pretty gray area as far as the law is concerned.

What would the student be sueing the school over?

Almost sounds like the type of situation where your CO tells you to do something "when you the get the chance". You know darn well that means NOW!

What you usually say seems to be very easily defined.
If the flight would result in the issuance of a license - it is reportable.
Why would that / should that be different for 61 or 141?

USMCFLYR

Sounds like schools are reporting failed stage checks that are NOT end-of-course. There are several such checks for each rating, and it's not fair for 141 students to be under career jeopardy multiple times for each rating.

The FAA is not in your military CoC...they can only order you to do something if they enact regulations using the formal process, which involves public hearings and comment so as to head off shortsighted bureaucratic stupidity. AC's are not regulatory, although they can help to clarify regulations.

But PRIA is a federal law, not an FAA regulation, so an AC clearly has no legitimate standing.

PRIA needs to be modified by the people who created it: congress. But I suspect the special interests (universities and big 141 schools) have bought a delaying action. They want to keep selling prospective students on no pressure, no jeopardy 141 checkrides.

Sounds like schools are reporting failed stage checks that are NOT end-of-course. There are several such checks for each rating, and it's not fair for 141 students to be under career jeopardy multiple times for each rating.

The FAA is not in your military CoC...they can only order you to do something if they enact regulations using the formal process, which involves public hearings and comment so as to head off shortsighted bureaucratic stupidity. AC's are not regulatory, although they can help to clarify regulations.

But PRIA is a federal law, not an FAA regulation, so an AC clearly has no legitimate standing.

PRIA needs to be modified by the people who created it: congress. But I suspect the special interests (universities and big 141 schools) have bought a delaying action. They want to keep selling prospective students on no pressure, no jeopardy 141 checkrides.
First - I didn't say they were the military CoC - I said it was a similar situation.
Second - I thought we were talking about EOC checks here for the entire thread. Isn't that what the OP said he failed numerous times?

USMCFLYR

Question 1 on the Eagle Addendum says " Have you ever received a notice of disapproval from an FAA Inspector or FAA designated examiner for failure of an FAA Oral, Practical, or Flight test?"

If the guy giving the EOC checkride - which would result in the student pilot being awarded a PPL if completed successfully - isn't an FAA designated examiner, then what is he?

I'm seriously asking this question.
I don't know a lot about the big P-141 schools, but it would seem to me that anyone who can sign off on a PPL would have to be a designated examiner.

USMCFLYR

If the guy giving the EOC checkride - which would result in the student pilot being awarded a PPL if completed successfully - isn't an FAA designated examiner, then what is he?

I'm seriously asking this question.
I don't know a lot about the big P-141 schools, but it would seem to me that anyone who can sign off on a PPL would have to be a designated examiner.

USMCFLYR

They're actually just stage check pilots at the school. I've done End of Course checks at two different 141 schools with examining authority. At both of them the check pilots actually had their own students and were just normal instructors at the school (They could not do a checkride for their own student). The check pilots needed approval by the FSDO to act as a check pilot, but they didn't need any special qualifications or certificates like FAA designated examiners do. All check pilots were authorized to do both stage checks and End of Course checks that would award a rating. They had no ability to do checkrides outside of the one school they were approved for.

When we failed an End of Course check there was no letter of disapproval. Most of the time they didn't even write anything like "end of course check unsatisfactory." The check pilot would just write in our logbooks "Lesson #30 flight unsatisfactory" and sign it. The failures were never reported to the FAA, nor did they need to be by regulation. The only way for airlines to know they're end of course checks is for me to report it. I feel like I need to be reporting things like that though because I'm sure they're able to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that I started my instrument training after "Lesson #30 flight satisfactory" was written in my logbook.

All check pilots were authorized to do both stage checks and End of Course checks that would award a rating. They had no ability to do checkrides outside of the one school they were approved for.

When we failed an End of Course check there was no letter of disapproval. Most of the time they didn't even write anything like "end of course check unsatisfactory." The check pilot would just write in our logbooks "Lesson #30 flight unsatisfactory" and sign it. The failures were never reported to the FAA,
That is good info rcfd.
Then I am still confused.
If this guy can give you a pass and you get your license, then the FAA has given this guy the authority to act as a desginated examiner if for only other students at that school which are not his students. It is still awarding of the license.

As far as what rickair said about P141 students when he stated:
and it's not fair for 141 students to be under career jeopardy multiple times for each rating.
it sounds to me like they are getting a free pass then.
A P61 student goes for his license and fails - it is reported.
A P141 student goes for his license and fails - it is just a EOC failure and it doesn't get reported?
rickair - sounds like it is the P61 student that is getting the raw end of that deal.

Something is not being explained here or someone has the information wrong.

USMCFLYR

As far as what rickair said about P141 students when he stated:

it sounds to me like they are getting a free pass then.
A P61 student goes for his license and fails - it is reported.
A P141 student goes for his license and fails - it is just a EOC failure and it doesn't get reported?
rickair - sounds like it is the P61 student that is getting the raw end of that deal.

Something is not being explained here or someone has the information wrong.

USMCFLYR

The difference is that a P61 student goes on one checkride. If he passes then he gets a license. If he fails then he gets a letter of disapproval. In the 141 school I currently work at we have four stages of training for the private and instrument course. At the end of private stage 1 (slow flight, steep turns, stalls) they take stage check #1 and are not awarded a rating. In stage #2 they do landings and get ready to solo. They take stage check #2 and if they pass they are sent on their first solo. They are not awarded a rating. Third stage check evaluates their ability to do a solo cross country. The fourth stage check is where they will get a rating if they pass. This is the end of course check.

What rickair is saying would be unfair is if ALL 141 stage check failures have to be reported to the FAA and to airlines. A part 61 guy who fails his private pilot checkride will have to report 1 failure. A part 141 guy who fails each stage check once would theoretically have to report four failures even though he completed the same training and has the same number of 'checkride failures' as the part 61 guy.

I also posted above that one thing I think is somewhat unfair about reporting End of Course failures as checkrides is the fact that if we bust an End of Course check for say... steep turns, we have to take the entire thing over again. In part 61 you would just recheck steep turns and pass. Part 141 you have to take the whole End of Course over again and next time you can bust on slow flight but pass steep turns. That would count as two failures, and that's basically what happened to me. The part 61 guys don't run into that problem. If they bust steep turns they just recheck steep turns.

The 141 schools used to justify this practice by saying that the End of Course checks aren't checkrides. They're not reportable and will never count against anyone, so they would rather have us fail two or three times and be totally ready. I *think* this was actually an accurate statement before the Colgan crash in 2009. They found out that the captain had a lot of stage check failures that were unreported and airlines are trying to find ways to make us report them now.

If the End of Course checks are reportable as checkrides, I think they should be treated as checkrides. If we bust one thing we recheck one thing. I'm confidant that I wouldn't be in the pickle I'm in now if I had done my private part 61. I may very well have busted once, but not 5 times.

They're actually just stage check pilots at the school. I've done End of Course checks at two different 141 schools with examining authority. At both of them the check pilots actually had their own students and were just normal instructors at the school (They could not do a checkride for their own student). The check pilots needed approval by the FSDO to act as a check pilot, but they didn't need any special qualifications or certificates like FAA designated examiners do. All check pilots were authorized to do both stage checks and End of Course checks that would award a rating. They had no ability to do checkrides outside of the one school they were approved for.


All 141 instructors are not check instructors and check instructors are NOT automatically granted examining authority...at the schools I worked at it was almost always only the chiefs and assistant chiefs who could examine although the regs allow check instructors to do that also.

We had to do a training and certification process similar to what any DPE has to do. The FAA did not consider us "just normal instructors", we were simply DPE's by another name whose scope of authority was limited to that particular school and approved courses. Actually the FSDO would allow us to do rides at any 141 school in the area, we just had to do the paperwork drill associated with each school. Some guys did this when everyone was leaving for the airlines and senior instructors were hard to find.

Since we had a lot of direct oversight from the FSDO, it was a pretty easy transition to DPE if you wanted to stick around GA vice moving to the airlines.

Bottom line, aviation employers especially airlines care if you failed checkrides. The also believe that you cannot be a commercial pilot without having taken at least three checkrides (or whatever you want to call them). they want to know how you did on those checkrides (or whatever you want to call them).

Question: Let's say pilot A went through 141 and failed 6 checkrides, and pilot B went through 61 training and failed one checkride. Pilot A's FAA record is clean, but Pilot shows one pinkslip.

If an airline has a choice between A and B does it really make sense to hire A because he has fewer pink slips? Really? One bust is pretty common, especially at the CFI level, but more than two really indicates that something might be going on.

The difference is that a P61 student goes on one checkride. If he passes then he gets a license. If he fails then he gets a letter of disapproval. In the 141 school I currently work at we have four stages of training for the private and instrument course. At the end of private stage 1 (slow flight, steep turns, stalls) they take stage check #1 and are not awarded a rating. In stage #2 they do landings and get ready to solo. They take stage check #2 and if they pass they are sent on their first solo. They are not awarded a rating. Third stage check evaluates their ability to do a solo cross country. The fourth stage check is where they will get a rating if they pass. This is the end of course check.
Ok - I got this part. It is the way that I was trained.
Good to go so far.

What rickair is saying would be unfair is if ALL 141 stage check failures have to be reported to the FAA and to airlines. A part 61 guy who fails his private pilot checkride will have to report 1 failure. A part 141 guy who fails each stage check once would theoretically have to report four failures even though he completed the same training and has the same number of 'checkride failures' as the part 61 guy.
Still hanging on. Still the way that I thought. I did not know that ALL stage checks had to be reported. I thought I had read in many threads here on APC that only those checks that would have resulted in a license/rating had to be reported. I agree that regular stagechecks should not have to be reported; only those that would have resulted in a license/rating.

I also posted above that one thing I think is somewhat unfair about reporting End of Course failures as checkrides is the fact that if we bust an End of Course check for say... steep turns, we have to take the entire thing over again. In part 61 you would just recheck steep turns and pass. Part 141 you have to take the whole End of Course over again and next time you can bust on slow flight but pass steep turns. That would count as two failures, and that's basically what happened to me. The part 61 guys don't run into that problem. If they bust steep turns they just recheck steep turns.
I would consider that you have to take the EOC all over again as a hurdle that you have to deal with when you decided to take P141 training.

The 141 schools used to justify this practice by saying that the End of Course checks aren't checkrides. They're not reportable and will never count against anyone...
If the End of Course checks are reportable as checkrides, I think they should be treated as checkrides. If we bust one thing we recheck one thing. I'm confidant that I wouldn't be in the pickle I'm in now if I had done my private part 61. I may very well have busted once, but not 5 times.
...and here in lies the rub.
If EOCs aren't checkrides, how can they result in a license/rating?
Is this the part that I am missing.
An EOC is only another stage check to make sure that you are ready to go have your checkride, then you still have to have another ride with a DPE or FSDO? According to rickair is the next post after your's, it is as I suspected and the school 'checkairmen' have similar authority to DPEs.
Earlier in the thread, someone made it sound like if you failed an EOC (which could have result in a license/rating) then you didn't have to report it and you just got to try again. That is where I said it sounded unfair to the P61 student who didnt have that opportunity. One shot - pass or fail.

If so - this is not what I was getting from earier posts.
It was my understanding that the EOC resulted in the PPL.

So..... a few simple questions (I think):
1) Does a EOC result in a PPL for example?
2) The school 'checkpilot' signs off the student getting his PPL.
3) If a student fails his EOC, he gets to take anohter one but it doesn't have to be reported (pre-Colgan mishap)?

It is my personal opinion that the regular stage checks that don't result in a license or rating should not be counted, but if you fail a ride that would result in the issuance - however many times - it counts as a checkride failure and is reported.

USMCFLYR

Bottom line...

- The FAA does not define "checkride" and "EOC" to be mutually exclusive terms. Functionally they are the same thing, with minor administrative differences.

- A failed EOC which would have resulted in a certificate or rating does not have to be reported to the FAA.

- The airline industry (and most other employers) consider a failed EOC to be a failed checkride. If you get caught lying about it, you'll be shown the door. If you try to argue semantics about flight school regulations to an airline interviewer they will be laughing while they escort you to the door. Then they will go to lunch and talk about what a tool you were. It's their ball, if you want to play the game go with their rules.

If you apply for a job with the FAA, maybe you could get away with not reporting failed EOC checks.

Note: It is possible to have an EOC check which does NOT result in a cert/rating. This would occur when the school does not have examining authority. The EOC is still required for 141 paperwork purposes, in which case it is effectively a mock checkride with no jeopardy. An outside examiner is then brought in to give the actual checkride. I'm not going to get into this process because there are a lot of permutations and potential confusion. Just know that it is possible, and is done sometimes.

This whole thing is not worth debating any longer. The only reason the issue exists is because flight schools sell their students on the lie that "you can't fail a 141 checkride". If you failed a bunch of 141 EOC's and are now facing the real-world consequences, deal with it. Realize that you were suckered by the flight training industry...but don't fret about it, that's what they do best because all their customers are first-timers (unless dad was a career civilian-track pilot). You learned something, but unlike buying a used car, that knowledge won't help you again in this lifetime.

If I were interviewing a pilot (which I have done before) I would spot the failures in the logbook because I was a 141 examiner. A large number (3+) would cause me to have serious reservations. I am probably not too different from other interviewers. You can argue the details here, but don't try it at an interview.

- A failed EOC which would have resulted in a certificate or rating does not have to be reported to the FAA.
In this way it is the P61 student who is getting the raw end of the deal.

USMCFLYR

In this way it is the P61 student who is getting the raw end of the deal.

USMCFLYR

Yes..............