Airline Pilot Forums

I currently have 730tt, 328 multi, 442 xctry, 422 PIC, 84 night, 32 actual instrument, and 182 turbine SIC. ATP written just to fluff-up my resume.

I am on AirlineAPPS and know the various minimums...especialy the ones I DO NOT meet :( so we dont need to beat that dead horse, and I am not willing to pencil-wip my log to "make it work".

Pretty simple question....which is the most likely path to employment. I'm not looking for certainly...just probility.

a) Drop $3k to get my CFI/MEI
b) Drop $3k to go to ATP for their "Regional Course" in hopes of getting an interview...maybe.

Thoughts? Lemme have em....

Thx

CFI, hands down. Not only will it give you a job to pursue while you wait for an airline to call, but it will make you a much better pilot. Even if you don't actually instruct for that long, simply learning how to teach will improve your overall skill set and ability. When you go work for an airline they'll teach you all you need to know about flying an RJ so I say you work on improving your basic skills as a pilot.

And if, for whatever reason, worst case scenario the airlines don't come calling right away or ever, you've got a way to be gainfully employed flying airplanes. Having your CFI gives you the means to build time and experience for as long as you need. That's more than an RJ course will give you.

If you're gonna spend 3k either way definitely do the CFI route.

Have you looked at aerial survey?

Have you looked at aerial survey?

I am most assuredly not a winged-snob. lol I dont turn my nose up to anything. If they made a flying garbage route...I'd do it.

Aerial surey??? love to.
Pipeline??? sign me up.
Orbiting surveillance???? I can do steep turns.
Hauling checks...hauling chickens....hauling ar$e...whatever.
Mile-high club? I'll cheufer (you clean up)

Its all good. :)

CFI for sure from your options. BUt with your time you should get an interview with eagle I would assume...

CFI for sure from your options. BUt with your time you should get an interview with eagle I would assume...

Put-in a month ago via AirlineApps with multiple internal recs....nothing yet..... Not holding my breath. If they call, awesome. If they dont, that's cool too.

I applied to EVERYONE on the AirlineApps list.....even those that many here consider leppers. I'll fly em.

Put-in a month ago via AirlineApps with multiple internal recs....nothing yet..... Not holding my breath. If they call, awesome. If they dont, that's cool too.

I applied to EVERYONE on the AirlineApps list.....even those that many here consider leppers. I'll fly em.

Everyone has their own view, but my opinion is, save the money, don't do either CFI or ATP Jet course. You will need this money in your first year.

First of all, CFI doen't happen in 3k, it will be more like 5k & ATP course is also 5k, Eagle will pay for it anyway.

I posted my view from the LAX job fair, pretty much everyone is hiring......

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hiring-news/62349-fltops-regional-job-fair-lax-09-24-11-a.html

I had my app in airline apps for 2 months & no calls. I went to the job fair, I think it was one of the best $200 spent. I will suggest, go to the next job fair......

I applied to EVERYONE on the AirlineApps list.....even those that many here consider leppers. I'll fly em.

If you have no qualms about who you work for, go to Africa or S. America. Ethics are certainly optional, even frowned upon in those places. The less legal the job, the lower the mins.

go 2 career fairs, nobody is going to look at you with those times unless you shove your resume in their face.

If you have no qualms about who you work for, go to Africa or S. America. Ethics are certainly optional, even frowned upon in those places. The less legal the job, the lower the mins.

I dont recall saying that I have no regard for ethics or legality, merely that I am willing to do whatever it takes.

The question is.....what does it take.

I dont mind jumping through hoops....you do that to get (and keep) any job.

I've already jumped through a couple. There are two hoops immediately ahead of me.

One is an instructor program....the other is a networking opportunity (ATP).

I simply asked what the groups opinion was as to which would be the most advantageous.

So far there are :
2 for instructor
2 for career fairs
2 for boondocking to build time
Big juicy zero for ATP's RJ prep-school

I am most assuredly not a winged-snob. lol I dont turn my nose up to anything. If they made a flying garbage route...I'd do it.



I applied to EVERYONE on the AirlineApps list.....even those that many here consider leppers. I'll fly em.

If you have no qualms about who you work for, go to Africa or S. America. Ethics are certainly optional, even frowned upon in those places. The less legal the job, the lower the mins.

I dont recall saying that I have no regard for ethics or legality, merely that I am willing to do whatever it takes.


If you really DON'T understand the signals of what the bolded points of your previous posts are sending and the resultant question about ethics from rickair, then you have a little more studying to do about the airline industry and preceptions (true or not) that you might likely deal with as you progress along your career path.

If you DO understand what you are saying when you say soething along the lines of "I applied to EVERYONE on the AirlineApps list.....even those that many here consider leppers. I'll fly em", then you understand why rickair and many others will question your regard (or disregard) for ethics.

USMCFLYR

If you DO understand what you are saying when you say soething along the lines of "I applied to EVERYONE on the AirlineApps list.....even those that many here consider leppers. I'll fly em", then you understand why rickair and many others will question your regard (or disregard) for ethics.

USMCFLYR

I understand ethics. I got me one of them check-mark thingies next to "English profficient".

Less superficially, I also understand that ethics are by their very nature and definition...subjective and predisposed to interpretation dependant upon perspective and circumstance.

However, since it is not my intent, nor my interest, to get into a pi$$ing contest to see who has the highest IQ or to be schooled on whose moral values are right or wrong, I'd really like to try to stay focused on the question that I asked.

USMCFLYR, I've watched your posts with particular interest for quite a while and have found them helpful in the past. I was wondering if you had an opinion as to 1) going instructor, or 2) going to a prep-course.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify the purpose of my post.

I look forward to your opinions on the questions at-hand.

I understand ethics. I got me one of them check-mark thingies next to "English profficient".

Less superficially, I also understand that ethics are by their very nature and definition...subjective and predisposed to interpretation dependant upon perspective and circumstance.

However, since it is not my intent, nor my interest, to get into a pi$$ing contest to see who has the highest IQ or to be schooled on whose moral values are right or wrong, I'd really like to try to stay focused on the question that I asked.

USMCFLYR, I've watched your posts with particular interest for quite a while and have found them helpful in the past. I was wondering if you had an opinion as to 1) going instructor, or 2) going to a prep-course.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify the purpose of my post.

I look forward to your opinions on the questions at-hand.
It does sound like you understand why you will probably get asked certain questions on this board then.

Yes - I do have an opinion on the CFI; but it is based on old tried and true career paths and a personal opinion I held for MYSELF.

The tried and true path is to get your CFI and instruct. It will teach you much about flying and provide some valuable experience that will be the springboard for your future career.

My own path did not include instructing until much later in the my career, probably due to the detour in the traditional path after acheiving my ratings in the civilian world. BUT - even if I had kept going down that initial road, I still held a personal opinion that I did not want to instruct when I still wanted to get much more 'real world' flying experience under my belt. That type of flying seems even harder to get in today's environment than in the past.

I agree with others though when they say to save your money from the RJ courses. Others are willing to pay for your trainng, and even pay you while you get the training (e.g. AE), and it has NOT been proven in my mind that it is even a minor factor in the hiring process at this time. If you have read the WSJ article about possible reduction in required hrs in the future if certain training has been accomplished (a RJ type course was mentioned) then it might be different.

USMCFLYR

Thank you.

I must admit that I share the view that the RJ course would likely be less useful to me. However, I needed to see if anyone had a counterpoint to my personal opinion. So far, no one seems to.

I've been an instructor in two prior careers. I enjoy teaching. And I completely, vehemently, agree that teaching is the very best way of learning.

My only hesitation in doing so before now is that I didnt think I had enough practical experience to be an effective instructor. Even now I am not sure I know "enough"....but then I am somewhat cautious of those who think they do.

In my experience, the best instructors are always learning.

Which I guess bring me back to where I am now: Ready to take the next step in the learning process.

CFI, here I come!!!

(now...where did I put my keys.....)

Thank you.

I must admit that I share the view that the RJ course would likely be less useful to me. However, I needed to see if anyone had a counterpoint to my personal opinion. So far, no one seems to.

I've been an instructor in two prior careers. I enjoy teaching. And I completely, vehemently, agree that teaching is the very best way of learning.

My only hesitation in doing so before now is that I didnt think I had enough practical experience to be an effective instructor. Even now I am not sure I know "enough"....but then I am somewhat cautious of those who think they do.

In my experience, the best instructors are always learning.

Which I guess bring me back to where I am now: Ready to take the next step in the learning process.

CFI, here I come!!!

(now...where did I put my keys.....)
This is the essence of my personal limitations.
Along with the experience that I like to see though comes the mindset to teach. I've seen the very experienced pilot whoeither didn't have the mindset, or possibly the desire, to teach and couldn't pass on all of that excellent experience to the student - thus making him a less than effective instructor. On the other hand, another pilot with much less 'experience' but who can effectively communicate will pass on much more knowledge. I learned later in my career that I very much enjoyed instructing and look forward to even gaining the experience and expertise to instruct in my current occupation on down the road.

USMCFLYR

I like this thread.


atp

I think that you should definitely start down the CFI road, I always viewed it as a meal ticket insurance. If I get laid off from my current job I always know I can find something instructing. I certainly learned a ton about effective communication and aviation while I was an instructor for 2 1/2 years. It is something that I bring to the cockpit today and plan to use in the future as I'm slated for an upgrade soon. I plan on using some of these things I learned to better mentor/teach my future FOs.

I also agree with the people that suggested Job Fairs. Nothing works better than getting some quality face time and having the opportunity to interact with the recruiters. Taking the time to visit one indicates to them your true desire to work for them. With your times it may be the extra push you need to get hired in this environment. You have all the ME that they're looking for, but just a little weak in the TT department. I think a chance to meet them plus an internal rec should get you a shoe in.

Long story short.....start the CFI and attend the next available job fair....Best of Luck!!

An unfortunate but inevitable fact of life is that screening starts...at total time.

They dont get to the M/E time or the Turbine time, the types I have (yes, I've been to schools), flawless aviation record, spotless driving/criminal record, or modestly bad-ar$e resume. They wont summon me for an interview where they would learn that I have not missed a single day of work in my 26 years of employment (mostly luck), dont have kids, dont want kids so nothing to make me "call in" or that I have an amazing wife who is willing to cover the difference for the first few years of significant pay reduction. They wont hear that I dont drink; I dont smoke (anything) and yet folks still enjoy being around me. They wont get to the LONG list of recommendations I have from folks representing almost every regional and many of the majors (and have walked-in my packets). And they wont hear about the equipment I fly that makes most of those folks drool with envy.

They wont see any of that...because of the total time c---blocking the interesting stuff.

Like I said, I aint b___ing. I know they have to start filtering somewhere, and total time is a very logical indicator to use for screening.

If only I werent so gosh darn responsible. I could ignore my other responsibilities and allocate those funds to taking a tomahawk up and just fly circles....triangles....rhomboids.... practice skywriting....

But alas.... I think I should put the money into a CFI rating and let someone else pay for me to put hours in the ole log book so that this time next year.....I wont be begging for someone to make an exception and consider me. I'll negotiate from a position of greater leverage.

....and then beg.

(have no fear... I splurged and got some high-end knee-pads with ultra-gel inserts)

An unfortunate but inevitable fact of life is that screening starts...at total time.

They dont get to the M/E time or the Turbine time, the types I have (yes, I've been to schools), flawless aviation record, spotless driving/criminal record, or modestly bad-ar$e resume. They wont summon me for an interview where they would learn that I have not missed a single day of work in my 26 years of employment (mostly luck), dont have kids, dont want kids so nothing to make me "call in" or that I have an amazing wife who is willing to cover the difference for the first few years of significant pay reduction. They wont hear that I dont drink; I dont smoke (anything) and yet folks still enjoy being around me. They wont get to the LONG list of recommendations I have from folks representing almost every regional and many of the majors (and have walked-in my packets). And they wont hear about the equipment I fly that makes most of those folks drool with envy.

They wont see any of that...because of the total time c---blocking the interesting stuff.

Like I said, I aint b___ing. I know they have to start filtering somewhere, and total time is a very logical indicator to use for screening.

If only I werent so gosh darn responsible. I could ignore my other responcibilities and allocate those funds to taking a tomahawk up and just fly circles....triangles....rhomboids.... practice skywriting....

But alas.... I think I should put the money into a CFI rating and let someone else pay for me to put hours in the ole log book so that this time next year.....I wont be begging for someone to make an exception and consider me. I'll negotiate from a position of greater leverage.

....and then beg.

(have no fear... I splurged and got some high-end knee-pads with ultra-gel inserts)
I want to hear about it!

USMCFLYR

All that and I'm not bright enough to figure out how to send a PM. Or at least the methods I am trying have proven unsuccessful.

USMCFLYR,
Send me a PM that I can respond to and I'll tell you about it and give you some pix. Just so's ya know's I aint bullsharting.

Pappy once told me: "Boy, dont you ever bluff. Cuz sooner or later they're gonna call your hand and then you'll just be sitting there look'n stupid."

My employer is....modest; and prefers that I not draw attention.

Pitty, since I am awful-proud of the bird that I designed in large part and have no doubt I'd make a few covers.

Nope, not baiting for attention. Only mentioned it as an example that not all low-timers are equal.....but they are all low-time ;)

All that and I'm not bright enough to figure out how to send a PM. Or at least the methods I am trying have proven unsuccessful.

You'll have to keep making quality posts until you hit thr threshold for PM priviledges. Just like total time in aviation; total post count and quality of those posts matters here.

USMCFLYR

I`ve read all of your posts. You seem to be heading in the right direction with your flying. How about your education? Can you check the "Yes I have a 4 year college degree" box?

I`ve read all of your posts. You seem to be heading in the right direction with your flying. How about your education? Can you check the "Yes I have a 4 year college degree" box?

Nope.
Three x 2-year degrees, four professional certifications, and a stack of academic "honors". None related to aviation. put em all in a sack, add $3.00 and they still wont et you a coffee at starbucks.

I've become remarkable flexible having made a full-time hobby of kicking myself for decades for figuring out sooo many things....just a day or two too late.

I'm deliberating on pursuing an MBA after I get past the CFI thing. UT has a distance learning MBA program that I can do from any hotel at my own pace.

I know the MBA is about as over populated as computer science....but at least I'll be able to check the box.....and possibly have something to fall back on to get me a convenience store job.

An unfortunate but inevitable fact of life is that screening starts...at total time.

They dont get to the M/E time or the Turbine time, the types I have (yes, I've been to schools), flawless aviation record, spotless driving/criminal record, or modestly bad-ar$e resume. They wont summon me for an interview where they would learn that I have not missed a single day of work in my 26 years of employment (mostly luck), dont have kids, dont want kids so nothing to make me "call in" or that I have an amazing wife who is willing to cover the difference for the first few years of significant pay reduction. They wont hear that I dont drink; I dont smoke (anything) and yet folks still enjoy being around me. They wont get to the LONG list of recommendations I have from folks representing almost every regional and many of the majors (and have walked-in my packets). And they wont hear about the equipment I fly that makes most of those folks drool with envy.

They wont see any of that...because of the total time c---blocking the interesting stuff.

Like I said, I aint b___ing. I know they have to start filtering somewhere, and total time is a very logical indicator to use for screening.

If only I werent so gosh darn responsible. I could ignore my other responsibilities and allocate those funds to taking a tomahawk up and just fly circles....triangles....rhomboids.... practice skywriting....

But alas.... I think I should put the money into a CFI rating and let someone else pay for me to put hours in the ole log book so that this time next year.....I wont be begging for someone to make an exception and consider me. I'll negotiate from a position of greater leverage.

....and then beg.

(have no fear... I splurged and got some high-end knee-pads with ultra-gel inserts)




It's all subjective. Believe me. So what you haven't missed a day in 26 yrs of work! Who the **** cares? Does corporate culture ring a bell? Not only in aviation, but in any corporate culture! Do you fit in? Can they reasonably get along with you on an extended trip? Ask yourself these questions.

You've gotta understand, like a 4 yr FO for UPSCO told me, who flies the MD-11, and I'm sure if you research it on this forum,......not only is it about your credentials, it's whether or not if "they" (those flying the line) can stand to be around you for repeated 3-4 day trips?.....or maybe even "catching a ride to work and doing a 1-2 day trip with you? I would guess that this would go for whatever level of flying that you're doing; whether 91, 121, or even 135 if it calls for that.


JMHO.



atp

It's all subjective. Believe me. So what you haven't missed a day in 26 yrs of work! Who the **** cares? Does corporate culture ring a bell? Not only in aviation, but in any corporate culture! Do you fit in? Can they reasonably get along with you on an extended trip? Ask yourself these questions.

You've gotta understand, like a 4 yr FO for UPSCO told me, who flies the MD-11, and I'm sure if you research it on this forum,......not only is it about your credentials, it's whether or not if "they" (those flying the line) can stand to be around you for repeated 3-4 day trips?.....or maybe even "catching a ride to work and doing a 1-2 day trip with you? I would guess that this would go for whatever level of flying that you're doing; whether 91, 121, or even 135 if it calls for that.

JMHO.

atp

Interesting application of the concept of "humble".

However, before they can get to the point of accessing cultural compatibility, they gotta get through all those other pre-qualifiers. And as I think I was tying to express (poorly, apparently)....that evaluation stops with my comparitively low total times.

As I said, I understand the process. I aint complaining. Merely defininf my awareness of it so yall dont think I'm some naive whiner.

Pre-qualifers, like tests and written evaluations, are designed to eliminate. They are used to evaluate and measure your knowledge of a certain subject or skill however, in the true sense of its meaning...they're design to eliminate.

Interesting that you chose "humble" as oppose to "honest" and even still as something being "factual". There is an old say..."Reality is to me, what I perceive reality to be; irrespective of the nature of reality".

We'll finish this in the morning...."with respect to my time zone"! LOL.;)



atp

Interesting application of the concept of "humble".

However, before they can get to the point of accessing cultural compatibility, they gotta get through all those other pre-qualifiers. And as I think I was tying to express (poorly, apparently)....that evaluation stops with my comparitively low total times.

As I said, I understand the process. I aint complaining. Merely defininf my awareness of it so yall dont think I'm some naive whiner.

I get what you're saying and I think ATP missed the mark. All of those cultural compatibility items are to be measured during the interview and are often considered non-issues if there's an internal rec to go along with it, provided you're not a total a$$ jack at the interview.

But....your issue appears to be that due to your total time companies are not giving you a chance to interview despite your other qualifications. This is why I said before to maybe perhaps go to a job fair to give yourself that opportunity to explain what makes you better and more hire-able than other low timers.

Which brings us back to.......DOH!
.......a dear....
................a female dear....

Ray....
.....a drop of golden sun......


There we go folks... I have neatly reconnected all the pertenent post WHILE simulatniously beaching the thread to prevent it becomming irrevocable lost and getting myself confused again/still.
:)

a succint recap:
I'll forget the ATP prep-course, get my Instructor ratings, earn some more valuable hours at someone else's expense, attend career fairs where I will vigorously promote myself cuz no one else will, and get to work on some sort of four year degree.

In ither words....I'll quit wasting time and money trying to blaze a "new, undiscovered "shortcut"....and start down the well worn path that others have aleardy laid......successfully.

I did mention that I can be slow to catch on. lol

Oh, and Just for clarification….
This is not what I meant by saying I’d fly circles to build time.
http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/01/8071899-ultra-light-crashes-into-ferris-wheel-in-australia


Thanks all. Sincerely.

I get what you're saying and I think ATP missed the mark. All of those cultural compatibility items are to be measured during the interview and are often considered non-issues if there's an internal rec to go along with it, provided you're not a total a$$ jack at the interview.


O contraire mon fraire! ;)

You are correct and I agree that those items are to be measured during the interview. I wasn't gauging his credentials or knowledge of the industry. What I was "looking" at was the "attitude" of some of his responses to comments made by others. What we say and how we say it tells alot about a person. It was merely an observation....that's all.



atp