Airline Pilot Forums

I'm sure this may have been asked here previously, so I apologize for that as the search function didn't seem to answer my question. I am currently a low-time CFI, and just curious what path to take. I've heard good things about the National Guard, and not so good things about the airlines. I always wanted to go to the airlines, but the more threads I read on this forum, the less I want to pursue since 80% of all post are about someone complaining about something...I'm just looking for some advice, pros/cons of one over the other, or any advice you may have to offer. I might also mention that my vision is not good, 20/100 I believe in each eye. I'm sure that changes a lot of things. If I were to go to the guard, I would ideally like some heavy metal stuff (C-130, C-17, C-5, etc). Thanks for any information and guidance you may have to offer.

Path to what?

I'm confused; you don't want to be an airline pilot (probably a wise decision) so what do you want to do with your life?

The Guard/Reserve is a part-time job (won't pay your bills for 20+ years)

Answer that, and then you might get some useful advise...

Sorry I didnt clarify. Right now it looks like I'm going to instruct, build hours, and maybe head to the airlines. Just wondering if the Guard is a good experience, or if it would be a waste of time at this stage and i'd "fall behind"

You can do both. If you are qualified, and do not have any deviant mental attitudes which would preclude serving your country, you should probably try to do both.

The Guard (like any military aviation experience) will generally get you head-of-the-line privileges when apply to major airlines. They prefer military trained aviators.

Applying to the guard can take 2 or even three years, so stick with the civilian track until you actually report for military training. If you manage to get hired by a regional before you start the military, that's a bonus because your job is protected while you are away on any kind of military leave and you also accrue airline seniority while you are gone. You could leave as a junior FO and come back and immediately start aptain training.

We are almost in the same position. From what I hear, Guard is great (obviously, you're flying the flag) but the training takes years and you can fall behind people who are building seniority numbers at the 121 carriers. So get a flying job first and THEN go guard. I'm not sure about the vision requirements, I think you can get PRK or whatever, I know my friend who flies F-18s had to get that done. But hey do what you will get the most happiness from. I think a lot of people buy into the conventional view that a successful aviation career is ending up in the left seat of an airliners or corporate jet. In the race to get there, they forget that they can have fun in this industry, too.

Your vision is waiverable. Military flying is a GREAT experience, imho. It is not a waste of time....you're wasting time right now by not applying! Go guard, you will not regret it.

We are almost in the same position. From what I hear, Guard is good but the training takes years and you can fall behind people who are building seniority numbers at the 121 carriers. I'm not sure about the vision requirements, I think you can get PRK or whatever, I know my friend who flies F-18s had to get that done. But hey do what you will get the most happiness from. I think a lot of people buy into the conventional view that a successful aviation career is ending up in the left seat of an airliners or corporate jet. In the race to get there, they forget that they can have fun in this industry, too.

If you are employed at a regional, you will not "fall behind" on seniority because your seniority will accrue while you are gone.

If you are not employed by a regional I would still do the guard because that's the best resume bullet you can have. Don't be in too much of a hurry to rush out and build regional flight time...there are plenty of 10,000 - 15,000 hour regional pilots who never got called by a major. You would be better of with 1500 military hours than 15,000 regional hours

Well, I've already started the application process. I figured it cant hurt. Gotta be in it to win it... I wasn't aware that you can hold job seniority while on duty, thats good to know. I guess it's personal preference, but would larger aircraft look better for majors than fighter type aircraft? I figured it would considering the multi-crew environment of a C-130, C17, etc...) Then again, flying an F-18 would be bad ass...My plan for now as keep flying civilian while the Guard application goes through. If anything comes up, I'll definitely consider the guard. Hopefully by then I'll have a regional job to lock in place.

Crewdog, Is my vision waiverable with or without surgery. I'm waiting for a recruiter to contact me back.

The Guard/Reserve is a part-time job (won't pay your bills for 20+ years)


:confused: There are full time positions in the ANG. Each unit tends to handle them differently, but there is definitely a portion of every ANG unit manned with full-timers. Typically those positions are highly sought after but I've seen guys get hired as a part-timer and work their way into a full time spot.

There are two types: Technicians and AGR
Technicians are civil servants with a GS pay scale.
AGR folks are exactly the same as someone on active duty.

There are pros/cons to each that are well beyond this discussion. Bottom line, you could get hired at a Guard unit and eventually be there as a full time pilot.

Well, I've already started the application process. I figured it cant hurt. Gotta be in it to win it... I wasn't aware that you can hold job seniority while on duty, thats good to know. I guess it's personal preference, but would larger aircraft look better for majors than fighter type aircraft? I figured it would considering the multi-crew environment of a C-130, C17, etc...) Then again, flying an F-18 would be bad ass...My plan for now as keep flying civilian while the Guard application goes through. If anything comes up, I'll definitely consider the guard. Hopefully by then I'll have a regional job to lock in place.

Crewdog, Is my vision waiverable with or without surgery. I'm waiting for a recruiter to contact me back.

All fixed-wing military pilot experience is good. The heavy guys have more airline-like experience, but the fighter guys are very good sticks by definition. There have been fighter guys who struggle transition to a crew environment but the reality is that they usually fly in two ship formations, so you have a wing-man instead of a co-pilot...but very similar business relationship.

Unless you have a woody for C-5's I'd go for fighters if you can get it. But even the heavy guys get to do some cool stuff with their airplanes.

You cannot fly F-18's in guard, and can only do it in the reserves if you had ten years full-time active duty fighter experience. F-16s and 15's are what you are looking at (very, very, very remote possibility of F-22's if you are a HI, VA or maybe AK native).

First, the ANG/Reserve UPT route is unsurpassed, you will NOT regret it. I had more applicants have problems with color vision than acuity. Not sure why, but the current color vision test is tough. Funny, even the RAAF (Aussie AF) candidates have trouble with it. Acuity shouldn't be a problem, do not take the surgery route until you are positive you are having the waiver able procedure done, that every bit of it is reviewed and approved. My nephew had it done and had no problems getting into Navy UPT even after being rejected by the Canoe U.

I've sponsored probably 20 candidates from a C-5 unit, only one washed out, IIRC and that was in OCS. It is competitive and the Guard/Reserve only selects those with outstanding chances to graduate.

The C-5 is fine, but not the best place to get good stick and rudder skills. Too much droning on autopilot. I'd jump at a fighter slot, if you are a competitive sort. Better basic flying training. I flew the F-100 and A-10 first and the lessons learned there have stuck with me. Medical drove me to the C-5. One thing, you will get more hours and pay in any of the heavies--the C-17 is probably the best now.

Find a unit or units and a mission you like and don't let go until selected. Some units are more interested in UPT candidates than others; a visit or two will tell you about them.

Sand:

Amen to everything Rick and Galaxy said.

Keep in mind: most civilians think "Guard" means the only part-time warrior. Reserve can be also...the difference is whether it is funded by the State (Guard) or Federal Governement (Reserve). Each branch also has full-timers, too. Two branches, minor sematics, transparent differences for most aspects of a career.

I initially wanted to fly heavies in the Air Force, and went fighter for the intensity of the flying. Doing so, I thought I had shot myself in the foot for future airline jobs. What I did not realize: fighter time is PIC. Heavy starts off not. Most major carriers use a multiplier for fighter time (rumor was United, American, and Delta multiplied by 2 for fighter time). They recognize that most of your time in a fighter is not on autopilot.

However, as rick posted, it can take some time to get used to a heavy airplane after spending a lot of time in nimble jets. My first airline training (747 classic) was humbling in the sim as I couldn't hold bank with 10 degrees or altitude within 300 feet for steep turns.

The best flying jobs I've ever had were military. I've enjoyed both, but if I had to pick one over the other: military. Pay and benefits are generally better too---not to mention job security (I'm leaving out the getting shot at part). ;)

Fighter time does add quickly to the PIC column; but do what suits your goals and personality. One of best friends in UPT (an AD troop) was ATC Commander's Trophy winner, best in class, was pushed into the Eagle but really wanted the heavies, just his background and personality. Quick in F-15 RTU, nearly lost his wings but eventually went to the C-141.

The real edge in going Guard/Reserve is you will know what plane and mission awaits when you graduate. No worrying about what you will be flying.

The last guy I sent to UPT, I went to his graduation in '05, is now a C-5 IP with over 2,000 hours in the plane, a third of that PIC. That's what a war will do for you:)

GF

Thanks for all of the very interesting and helpful information. One more question. People have been telling me that I must wait to finish OTS before I can even apply for an aviation slot (and even then its not guaranteed). Is this true? Then again, it was an Army NG recruiter telling me that, so they may do things differently. Or can I contact one of the units I'm interested in, find out if theres a slot/selection board coming up, and just apply. And if I dont get selected, theres no obligation. I support the military and everything they do, but I do not want to sacrifice an aviation career and all the work I've done, just to graduate OTS with no flying position...

Can someone elaborate on UPT? What is it and how do you apply to get in? Do you have to be in the military before applying? As the OP asks, how do you know you're going to fly before signing part of your life away? I don't know much about the process so I don't want to make a mistake on paperwork somewhere and sign away 5 years of my life just to continue to stare at the sky. Also I'm still in college, do you suggest I join now or after graduation?

I can only speak for the USAF Reserve. Once selected for a UPT slot, that is a railroad to OCS, then UPT, then follow-on training. The rules were, 6 years old now, if one quit or were washed out, you were considered "excess" to the unit assigned, no trained specialty, and discharged. That is what happened to my one "wash out". In today's times of cutbacks and excess manning, I don't see the AFR forcing one to be trained in a career field they weren't interested in and won't stay in.

The flying position is guaranteed, your graduation is not. The funny thing is, you will go for the flying, you might stay for a dozen other reasons or careers. My first UPT pilot is now a squadron commander, having been a Chief of Standards and a Flying Safety Officer. He also is a AA B757 FO.

But, ask the specific question and the potential outcomes.

So you can pretty much have the best of both worlds? Fly an F-15 or F-16 some days, and go fly a Boeing 737 on others. Not a bad lifestyle if you ask me...

Mostream3985

Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) is AF or USN training of about one year leading to being "winged"; the equivalent of getting a pilot's license. Then, it's off to follow on training in mission plane.

One has to have a four-year degree to be an officer and be an officer to be rated as a pilot. The Army has the exception of having warrant officers as pilots; not requiring college degree. One can go to UPT thru active duty (the commonly thought means) or through the Guard or AF Reserve. The training and prerequisites are the same either way; just that, once complete, the reservist AF pilot, goes back to being a reservist and can pursue a civilian career.

To start, find a unit recruiter and begin the various tests and physical. At an early point, make friends and "rush" the unit or units of choice. Like any aviation position, you need to demonstrate your personal "hunger", desire if you will, for the military and flying; your aptitude and attitude for the military. Remember, it is still a military career and all that implies. I went in somewhat reluctantly, but then wouldn't trade my 30 years for anything. And that includes an ejection out of an A-10.

GF

So you can pretty much have the best of both worlds? Fly an F-15 or F-16 some days, and go fly a Boeing 737 on others. Not a bad lifestyle if you ask me...

This about sums it up. If it were only so easy. I'd look elsewhere for your answers. Go to the source, your local guard or reserve flying unit, and talk to them. It's not too late for you, but you are behind the power curve. Most people in your position are already well versed in military aviation and have a better idea of what they want. BTW, don't tell anyone that you're trying to build hours for the airlines or that you think flying fighters might put you behind. You won't get a call back. And be aware that the competition is fierce.

Sandrich

Think about this for second, an F-15 ANG pilot position will consume a minimum of 7-8 days a month to be current and mission ready. A B737 low seniority FO will be at his airline 14-16 other days, maybe more, maybe less, if he lives at hs ANG unit maybe he can "overlap" the two by doing Guard while on reserve.

What I'm saying is that doing the two is a serious commitment, demanding of time and talents. The standards for the ANG F-15 guy are EXACTLY the same as the AD guy.

Be very serious!

GF

Sandrich

Think about this for second, an F-15 ANG pilot position will consume a minimum of 7-8 days a month to be current and mission ready. A B737 low seniority FO will be at his airline 14-16 other days, maybe more, maybe less, if he lives at hs ANG unit maybe he can "overlap" the two by doing Guard while on reserve.

What I'm saying is that doing the two is a serious commitment, demanding of time and talents. The standards for the ANG F-15 guy are EXACTLY the same as the AD guy.

Be very serious!

GF


This is excellent advice.

For some additional perspective, consider this. The traditional Guardsman (i.e. part-timer) F-15 pilot (or other ANG Fighter pilot) who can fly 7-8 days per month at his Guard unit and maintain proficiency is typically a veteran of at least 2 active duty tours in their fighter.


They were hired with at least 1000 hours of fighter time and probably spent 10-12 years on active duty. Most likely they were instructor pilots in their aircraft and a large percentage attended Fighter Weapons School. Those are the guys who can step out of the fighter cockpit and fly for a couple of weeks with their airline, show back up for drill and bring serious game. Even for them, it might take a sortie or two to get back up to speed.


My point is, after completing UPT and the rest of the training to be qualified in your unit's fighter, you'll have about 2 years of active duty completed. You show up and spend another 3-6 months getting checked out locally in their mission ready program. Now you're a wingman with maybe 100 hours in the fighter. You'll need to live, eat and breath fighter aviation for at least another 2 years before you could be considered mildly competent. I've watched a couple of "Guard baby's" try to go part time too soon and it ain't pretty. Their skills stagnate and they struggle to maintain proficiency. Upgrades to flight lead and beyond are difficult and their contribution to the squadron is minimal.


If your ultimate goal is to be an airline pilot, I wouldn't try to do that by joining a ANG fighter unit unless you're ready to spend an adequate amount of time becoming the best fighter pilot you can (say ~5 years after training complete). Good luck

Excellent comments, Adlerdriver

I've been there and done that regarding becoming a part-timer too soon. Fighters in the Guard/Reserve are a serious commitment which has gotten much more so since I left in the late '80's.

The C-5 is probably the easiest to get and stay proficient in along with the tankers. The C-17 and C-130 have a pretty decent balance of tactical (read: hand flying skills and thinking on your feet skills) and required commitment, still about 7 days a month as a part-timer once MR and with a 1,000 hours.

Like anything, you get out of it exactly what you put in. Fighters demand lots of "puttin' in" and one gets gets lots of flying and thinking skills. I have yet to meet a former fighter guy who could not be put into any flying environment and not excell--even CRM usually isn't an issue. Getting 3-5 other guys, in their own planes to do the task, whatever it is, takes CRM skill.

The Guard babies have had it pretty good in the past decade, lots of flying, good experience that generates proficiency and ability to upgrade. The next ten years, I cannot say, but joining won't be a big mistake.

GF

As a fellow C-5 driver, I would definitely recommend the C-5 route. Not only is it an easy plane to fly, but you build 4 engine turbine heavy time very quickly. Also, where it takes many years for some civilians to make it to the left seat of a four-engine heavy jet, you could be the Aircraft Commander in as little as two and a half years from the time you finish UPT. The other good part of the C-5 is the crew--some might argue this one though! Having a crew is a good deal because it teaches you leadership and it is also great to have people to hang out with when overseas.

I can't speak to the Guard and Reserve, but looking back on my career path, I would definitely have gone that route as opposed to active-duty. The reason for this is that I love flying and being the best pilot I can be--active-duty (rightfully so) focuses more on career progression and making rank that just being a pilot. Yes, my aspiration is to fly for the airlines eventually as well and stay in the Guard/Reserve as long as I possibly can. I have many friends at C-5 Guard/Reserve Units and I have not heard a bad thing about any of them.

Best of Luck!

Having a crew is a good deal because it teaches you leadership and it is also great to have people to hang out with when overseas.

Of course, fighter guys do everything alone, have nobody to lead except themselves, and thus have nobody "hang out with when overseas."

bojonpilot

Having been in both fighter and airfift "communities"; I'd ask that you withhold opinions on how the "other" side works and the requirements of their jobs. Leading a four-ship on a Red Flag mission is as tough, or more so, than anything I did in 4,000 hours in FRED. Never did combatin the Hun or the Hawg, so I'll reserve comment.

GF

Good and nobles quests, however you need to aware of the realities of policies that might drive an officer into becoming an operator of a Unmanned Aerial System (UAS) vs pilot...big diffferenve that you need to be ready for.
Good = lots of impact and the ability to save alot of US lives
Bad = you are not a pilot

The beauty of Guard and Reserves is that you pick where you want to work. Once hired by a unit, your two years (or so) of training is completely laid out for you with a guarantee to work where you got hired. So no matter where you rank in UPT and such, you are going to work for your unit that hired you and fly the plane they fly provided you pass and get through training. It takes a lot of the pressure off and you can just concentrate on learning, flying, and enjoying the training.

Figure out what plane and mission you want to be a part of. Find out what the lifestyle is like for the planes you are interested in. Like everyone else has said, what the requirements are to keep current, how much full time work they can offer and so on. I'm a Charleston Reservist, and for the last 5 years I've been here I've done nothing by fly the 17 and have had plenty of paychecks. I have no other job right now. Charleston is rich with missions (just not money right now. A WHOLE separate topic. LOL!) and therefore you can always find lines to fly. If you don't want to be full time and just work when you want to, you can. If you want full time work we have that as well in rotations. What I'm getting at is not every C-17 unit is like us. You'll find many different situations out there. You will have different experiences at different places with each plane so do your research.

Sand:

What I did not realize: fighter time is PIC. Heavy starts off not. Most major carriers use a multiplier for fighter time (rumor was United, American, and Delta multiplied by 2 for fighter time). They recognize that most of your time in a fighter is not on autopilot.



0.3 hours per sortie is the additive Delta uses for military to civilian time since we only log T/O to land and not out to in. I'm pretty sure SWA uses the same.

bojonpilot

Never did combatin the Hun or the Hawg, so I'll reserve comment.

GF

It's not the same Hawg you flew, but combatin is good this time of year.