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50 Amazing Numbers About the Economy (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/10/21/50-amazing-numbers-about-the-economy-.aspx)

Great (or not so great, depending on how you look at it...)list, thanks for posting

Agree. Very informative.

Here's some easy reading for your Friday afternoon. Did you know that...

50. From 1948 until 2007, the average duration of unemployment was 13.5 weeks. Today, it's 40.5 weeks.

49. In 1982, a 30-year mortgage carried an interest rate of 17.6%. Today, it's 4.1%. On a $250,000 loan, that's the difference between a monthly payment of $3,686 versus $1,210.

48. In 2000, 69% of businesses offered workers health insurance. By 2009, just 60% did, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

47. In 1952, corporate taxes were 6.1% of GDP, and employment taxes were 1.8% of GDP. In 2009, corporate taxes were 1% of GDP, and employment taxes were 6.3% of GDP.

46. The day after Standard & Poor's downgraded U.S. Treasuries was the second best day for Treasuries in modern history.

45. "Just 1 in 7 U.S. workers is of normal weight without a chronic health problem," according to The Wall Street Journal, citing Gallup data.

44. Adjusted for inflation, nationwide home prices have dropped 8.5% since 1979. Unrelated: 60% of homeowners say a major reason they bought a home is because they think it will make a good retirement investment.

43. The markup AT&T (NYSE: T ) charges for a single text message ($0.20) compared with a standard mobile data package ($25 for 2 gigs) is roughly 10 million percent.

42. Tax evasion has added an estimated $3 trillion to the national debt over the past decade, according to David Callahan of Demos, citing Internal Revenue Service data.

41. According to The Wall Street Journal, "every year 17,000 American-trained masters and doctoral students leave the U.S. to find work elsewhere."

40. Over the past 25 years, college tuition has increased at nearly four times the rate of broader inflation.

39. Health care for an average family now runs $19,393 a year, according to the Milliman Medical Index. It was about half that much in 2002.

38. Power to the people! According to The Los Angeles Times: "Some 75% of respondents said they were following the [California] budget debate, yet only 16% were aware that state spending has shrunk by billions of dollars over the last three years."

37. California will spend $5.7 billion on its main public universities this year, and $9.6 billion on prisons, according to The Bay Citizen.

36. The labor force participation rate for men has dropped from 87% in 1948 to 71% today.

35. The personal savings rate in August was 4.5%. Since 1959, it has averaged 7%. Returning to that level would divert more than $200 billion a year from consumer spending into saving.

34. 5.5 million Americans are unemployed and not receiving unemployment benefits. Last year, that number was 1.4 million.

33. The U.S. government provides health care for a minority of its population (elderly and poor) at a greater cost per citizen than many European countries spend on universal coverage.

32. As a percentage of GDP, federal taxes in 2010 were the lowest since 1950.

31. Between 2007 and 2009, those with a bachelor's degree saw the employment-to-population ratio fall by just 0.5%. For those without a bachelor's degree, it fell by more than 2%.

30. Household debt payments as a percentage of income are now at the lowest level since 1994.

29. Despite record federal deficits, total debt throughout the economy -- public plus private -- as a percentage of GDP has been dropping since 2008. Households are shedding debt faster than the government can go into it.

28. Just not student debt: Total student loans outstanding are expected to reach $1 trillion this year. The average student now leaves college with nearly $23,000 of debt. As Time pointed out, "Students today are borrowing double the amount they did ten years ago -- after adjusting for inflation.

27. Total state and local pension shortfalls now equal $4.4 trillion, according to State Budget Solutions.

26. In 2000, interest payments on the national debt totaled $222 billion. By 2009, the debt had more than doubled, but interest payments were $186 billion. Lower interest rates have saved taxpayers trillions of dollars.

25. According to The New York Times, only 23% of Americans benefit from the mortgage interest tax deduction, yet 93% support it.

24. For every $1,000 decline in home values, Americans reduce spending by $20 to $70 a year, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

23. Without mortgage equity withdrawal -- people using their homes as ATMs -- the U.S. economy would have been in recession for most of the 2001-2006 period.

22. The percentage of Americans covered by health insurance fell from 86.9% in 2000 to 83.7% in 2010. It has declined in eight of the past 10 years.

21. Nationwide real estate values have declined by about $7 trillion since 2006.

20. CEOs of S&P 500 companies are entitled to receive an average of $22 million upon being fired, according to GMI. "In total, it would cost shareholders $10.8 billion to fire the CEOs of all of the companies in the S&P 500," it writes.

19. One percent of households captured 52% of all income gains from 1993-2008.

18. Just 400 people earned 10% of all capital gains in 2007. Between 2000 and 2007, the top 400 taxpayers captured about 2% of all economic growth.

17. People spend their money on different sets of goods and services. The richest 10% of Americans had an inflation rate that was about 6% higher than the bottom 10% between 1994 and 2005.

16. According to former White House budget advisor Peter Orszag: "In 1990, about 63 percent of business income in the U.S. took the form of wages and other types of labor compensation. ... By 2005, that figure had dropped to 61 percent. And by the middle of this year, it had fallen to 58 percent. ... The difference from 1990 to today -- about 5 percentage points or so of private-sector income -- amounts to more than $500 billion a year."

15. Private jobs growth over the past two years has been faster than it was from 2001-2003. Public job losses have been a major factor in our current jobs crisis.

14. If federal, state, and local governments hadn't been slashing jobs since 2009, today's unemployment rate would be nearly a full percentage point lower.

13. The White House -- famously optimistic throughout all administrations -- forecasts that the unemployment rate won't return to pre-recession levels until 2016.

12. According to the National Review, "[General Motors (NYSE: GM ) ] has 96,000 employees but provides health benefits to a million people."

11. While gold hit record highs this summer, the yield on Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities, or TIPS, implied a forecast of near record low inflation.

10. According to author Matt Ridley, it took an average person 4,700 hours of work to afford a Ford (NYSE: F ) Model T in 1908. Today, it takes an average person 1,000 hours of work to afford an ordinary car.

9. Adjusted for inflation, the first Apple (Nasdaq: AAPL ) Macintosh cost $5,440. Today's iPad costs $500, and is outrageously more advanced.

8. About half of all Tweets are derived from 20,000 people -- or just 0.05% of Twitter members.

7. UBS estimates that illegal lending in China amounts to $630 billion a year, or about 10% of the country's gross domestic product.

6. Only 2.7% of what Americans spend their money on are goods and services from China. 88.5% is on American-made goods and services.

5. Cash flow among S&P 500 companies set a new all-time record last year, at $1.2 trillion.

4. Between dividends and buybacks, S&P 500 companies returned $4.3 trillion to shareholders from 2003 to 2010.

3. According to the Hedge Fund Research index, hedge funds as a group returned 19.6% between March 2009 and May 2011. Broad stock market indexes in the developed world returned 114% during that period.

2. Food prices invariably come up when people talk about inflation. But average disposable income has risen twice as fast as food prices over the past 50 years. There's been fairly steady food deflation over time.

1. America is still by far the largest economy in the world, nearly three times the size of China's or Japan's economy, and nearly five times the size of Germany's. We have the best schools, the deepest financial system, the most advanced innovation, and the brightest entrepreneurs.

Fool contributor Morgan Housel doesn't own shares in any of the companies mentioned in this article. Follow him on Twitter @TMFHousel. The Motley Fool owns shares of Apple and Ford Motor. Motley Fool newsletter services have recommended buying shares of Ford Motor, General Motors, AT&T, and Apple. Motley Fool newsletter services have recommended creating a bull call spread position in Apple. Try any of our Foolish newsletter services free for 30 days. We Fools may not all hold the same opinions, but we all believe that considering a diverse range of insights makes us better investors. The Motley Fool has a disclosure policy.

Pecan Group ^ | Unknown | Unknown

Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2011 12:59:56 PM by Windflier

#100 A staggering 48.5% of all Americans live in a household that receives some form of government benefits. Back in 1983, that number was below 30 percent.

#99 Since 2008, the U.S. government has accumulated more debt than it did from the time that George Washington took office to the time that Bill Clinton took office.

#98 Since 2008, the share of the national debt per household has increased by $35,835.

#97 The U.S. national debt has been increasing by an average of more than 4 billion dollars per day since the beginning of the Obama administration.

#96 It is being projected that the U.S. national debt will hit 344% of GDP by the year 2050 if we continue on our current course.

#95 The Congressional Budget Office is projecting that U.S. government debt held by the public will reach a staggering 716 percent of GDP by the year 2080.

#94 In 2010, the U.S. government paid $413 billion in interest on the national debt. That is projected to at least double over the next decade.

#93 According to one new survey, one out of every three Americans would not be able to make a mortgage or rent payment next month if they suddenly lost their current job.

#92 State and local government debt has reached an all-time high of 22 percent of U.S. GDP.

#91 In 1980, government transfer payments accounted for just 11.7% of all income. Today, government transfer payments account for 18.4% of all income.

#90 U.S. households are now receiving more income from the U.S. government than they are paying to the government in taxes.

#89 According to a new study conducted by the BlackRock Investment Institute, the ratio of household debt to personal income in the United States is now 154 percent.

#88 If you can believe it, one out of every seven Americans has at least 10 credit cards.

#87 According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, health care costs accounted for just 9.5% of all personal consumption back in 1980. Today they account for approximately 16.3%.

#86 The cost of a health insurance policy for the average American family rose by a whopping 9 percent last year, and according to a report put out by the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust, the average family health insurance policy now costs over $15,000 a year.

#85 One study found that approximately 41 percent of working age Americans either have medical bill problems or are currently paying off medical debt.

#84 An all-time record 49.9 million Americans do not have any health insurance at all at this point, and the percentage of Americans covered by employer-based health plans has fallen for 11 years in a row.

#83 According to a report published in The American Journal of Medicine, medical bills are a major factor in more than 60 percent of the personal bankruptcies in the United States. Of those bankruptcies that were caused by medical bills, approximately 75 percent of them involved individuals that actually did have health insurance.

#82 Average yearly tuition at U.S. private universities is now up to $27,293.

#81 The cost of college tuition in the United States has gone up by over 900 percent since 1978.

#80 In America today, approximately two-thirds of all college students graduate with student loans.

#79 In 2010, the average college graduate had accumulated approximately $25,000 in student loan debt by graduation day.

#78 The total amount of student loan debt in the United States now exceeds the total amount of credit card debt in the United States.

#77 One-third of all college graduates end up taking jobs that don’t even require college degrees.

#76 In the United States today, there are more than 100,000 janitors that have college degrees.

#75 In the United States today, 317,000 waiters and waitresses have college degrees.

#74 In the United States today, approximately 365,000 cashiers have college degrees.

#73 It is being projected that for the first time ever, the OPEC nations are going to bring in over a trillion dollars from exporting oil this year. Their biggest customer is the United States.

#72 U.S. oil companies will bring in about $200 billion in pre-tax profits this year. They will also receive about $4.4 billion in specialized tax breaks from the U.S. government.

#71 The United States has had a negative trade balance every single year since 1976, and since that time the United States has run a total trade deficit of more than 7.5 trillion dollars with the rest of the world.

#70 The United States has lost an average of 50,000 manufacturing jobs per month since China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001.

#69 The U.S. trade deficit with China is now 27 times larger than it was back in 1990.

#68 Today, the United States spends more than 4 dollars on goods and services from China for every one dollar that China spends on goods and services from the United States.

#67 China has surpassed the United States and is now the largest PC market in the entire world.

#66 In 2002, the United States had a trade deficit in “advanced technology products” of $16 billion with the rest of the world. In 2010, that number skyrocketed to $82 billion.

#65 In 2010, the number one U.S. export to China was “scrap and trash”.

#64 Do you remember when the United States was the dominant manufacturer of automobiles and trucks on the globe? Well, in 2010 the U.S. ran a trade deficit in automobiles, trucks and parts of $110 billion.

#63 The United States has lost a staggering 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

#62 If you can believe it, more than 42,000 manufacturing facilities in the United States have been closed down since 2001.

#61 Between December 2000 and December 2010, 38 percent of the manufacturing jobs in Ohio were lost, 42 percent of the manufacturing jobs in North Carolina were lost and 48 percent of the manufacturing jobs in Michigan were lost.

#60 Back in 1970, 25 percent of all jobs in the United States were manufacturing jobs. Today, only 9 percent of the jobs in the United States are manufacturing jobs.

#59 According to Professor Alan Blinder of Princeton University, 40 million more U.S. jobs could be sent offshore over the next two decades.

#58 If you gathered together all of the workers that are “officially” unemployed in the United States today, they would constitute the 68th largest country in the world.

#57 There are fewer payroll jobs in the United States right now than there were back in 2000 even though we have added 30 million extra people to the population since then.

#56 Back in 1969, 95 percent of all men between the ages of 25 and 54 had a job. In July, only 81.2 percent of men in that age group had a job.

#55 Only 55.3% of all Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 were employed last year. That was the lowest level that we have seen since World War II.

#54 Today, there are 5.9 million Americans between the ages of 25 and 34 that are living with their parents.

#53 The economic downturn has been particularly tough on men. According to Census data, men are twice as likely to live with their parents as women are.

#52 According to one recent survey, only 14 percent of all Americans that are 28 or 29 years old are optimistic about their financial futures.

#51 Incredibly, less than 30 percent of all U.S. teens had a job this summer.

#50 According to one study, between 1969 and 2009 the median wages earned by American men between the ages of 30 and 50 dropped by 27 percent after you account for inflation.

#49 Since the year 2000, we have lost approximately 10% of our middle class jobs. In the year 2000 there were about 72 million middle class jobs in the United States but today there are only about 65 million middle class jobs.

#48 In 1980, 52 percent of all jobs in the United States were middle income jobs. Today, only 42 percent of all jobs are middle income jobs.

#47 Back in 1980, less than 30% of all jobs in the United States were low income jobs. Today, more than 40% of all jobs in the United States are low income jobs.

#46 According to Paul Osterman, a professor of economics at MIT, approximately 20 percent of all employed Americans are making $10.65 an hour or less.

#45 Half of all American workers now earn $505 or less per week.

#44 Since December 2007, median household income in the United States has declined by a total of 6.8% once you account for inflation.

#43 New home sales in the United States are now down 80% from the peak in July 2005.

#42 The all-time record for fewest number of new homes sold in the United States was broken in 2009. Then it was broken again in 2010. It is on pace to be broken once again in 2011.

#41 At one point this year, U.S. home prices had fallen a whopping 33% from where they were at during the peak of the housing bubble.

#40 U.S. home values have fallen approximately 6 trillion dollars since the housing crisis first began.

#39 According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 18 percent of all homes in the state of Florida are sitting vacant. That figure is 63 percent larger than it was just ten years ago.

#38 Historically, the percentage of residential mortgages in foreclosure in the United States has tended to hover between 1 and 1.5 percent. Today, it is up around 4.5 percent.

#37 According to the Mortgage Bankers Association, at least 8 million Americans are currently at least one month behind on their mortgage payments.

#36 According to a Harris Interactive survey taken near the end of last year, 77 percent of all Americans are now living paycheck to paycheck. In 2007, the same survey found that only 43 percent of Americans were living paycheck to paycheck.

#35 Starting on January 1st, 2011 the Baby Boomers began to hit retirement age. From now on, every single day more than 10,000 Baby Boomers will reach the age of 65. That is going to keep happening every single day for the next 19 years.

#34 According to a new poll by Americans for Secure Retirement, 88 percent of all Americans are worried about “maintaining a comfortable standard of living in retirement”. Last year, that figure was at 73 percent.

#33 One out of every six elderly Americans now lives below the federal poverty line.

#32 In 1950, each retiree’s Social Security benefit was paid for by 16 U.S. workers. According to new data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are now only 1.75 full-time private sector workers for each person that is receiving Social Security benefits in the United States.

#31 According to the Congressional Budget Office, the Social Security system paid out more in benefits than it received in payroll taxes in 2010. That was not supposed to happen until at least 2016.

#30 The U.S. government now says that the Medicare trust fund will run out five years faster than they were projecting just last year.

#29 According to one study, the 50 U.S. state governments are collectively 3.2 trillion dollars short of what they need to meet their pension obligations.

#28 A different study has shown that individual Americans are $6.6 trillion short of what they need to retire comfortably.

#27 Between 1991 and 2007 the number of Americans between the ages of 65 and 74 that filed for bankruptcy rose by a staggering 178 percent.

#26 According to a shocking AARP survey of Baby Boomers that are still in the workforce, 40 percent of them plan to work “until they drop”.

#25 Last year, 2.6 million more Americans dropped into poverty. That was the largest increase that we have seen since the U.S. government began keeping statistics on this back in 1959.

#24 Back in the year 2000, 11.3% of all Americans were living in poverty. Today, 15.1% of all Americans are living in poverty.

#23 More than 50 million Americans are now on Medicaid. Back in 1965, only one out of every 50 Americans was on Medicaid. Today, approximately one out of every 6 Americans is on Medicaid.

#22 More than 45 million Americans are now on food stamps.

#21 The number of Americans on food stamps has increased 74% since 2007.

#20 Approximately one-third of the entire population of the state of Alabama is now on food stamps.

#19 Right now, one out of every four American children is on food stamps.

#18 It is being projected that approximately 50 percent of all U.S. children will be on food stamps at some point in their lives before they reach the age of 18.

#17 The poverty rate for children living in the United States increased to 22% in 2010.

#16 There are 314 counties in the United States where at least 30% of the children are facing food insecurity.

#15 In Washington D.C., the “child food insecurity rate” is 32.3%.

#14 More than 20 million U.S. children rely on school meal programs to keep from going hungry.

#13 It is estimated that up to half a million children may currently be homeless in the United States.

#12 The number of Americans that are going to food pantries and soup kitchens has increased by 46% since 2006.

#11 According to a recent report from the AFL-CIO, the average CEO made 343 times more money than the average American did last year.

#10 The wealthiest 1% of all Americans now own more than a third of all the wealth in the United States.

#9 The poorest 50% of all Americans collectively own just 2.5% of all the wealth in the United States.

#8 The percentage of millionaires in Congress is more than 50 times higher than the percentage of millionaires in the general population.

#7 According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 16.6 million Americans were self-employed back in December 2006. Today, that number has shrunk to 14.5 million.

#6 According to one recent poll, 90 percent of the American people believe that economic conditions in the United States are “poor”. To put this in perspective, only 11 percent of Americans rated economic conditions in the U.S. as “poor” back in January of 1999.

#5 According to another recent poll, 80 percent of the American people believe that we are actually in a recession right now.

#4 Our dollar is being systematically destroyed by the Federal Reserve. An item that cost $20.00 in 1970 will cost you $116.78 today. An item that cost $20.00 in 1913 will cost you $457.67 today.

#3 The Federal Reserve made $16.1 trillion in secret loans to their friends during the last financial crisis.

#2 The Federal Reserve is a perpetual debt machine. Today, the U.S. national debt is more than 4700 times larger than it was when the Federal Reserve was created back in 1913.

#1 According to a new CNN/ORC International Poll, 27 percent of all Americans have never even heard of Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke

#3 The Federal Reserve made $16.1 trillion in secret loans to their friends during the last financial crisis.

#2 The Federal Reserve is a perpetual debt machine. Today, the U.S. national debt is more than 4700 times larger than it was when the Federal Reserve was created back in 1913.



I'd be interested to see the "hard" data on these assumptions. Of course, debt is greater than 1913. Let's check out the data after WW1 and WW2, adjusted for inflation.

The assumptions made with these types of statements are that today's $billion dollar a DAY war expense didn't do anything to cause debt, or that only half the folks in the USA pay fed taxes; that bad Fed Reserve bank is the all knowing problem.

If the Fed loans were "secret", why does this writer know about them? I guess, not so secret!

Here's one for the history buffs who follow the "Fed is bad" and "we need a gold standard" folks. Out of over 230 years of existence, how many of those were on a gold standard, and when?

Flat tax

Abolish the IRS

Abolish the Federal Reserve

Repeal the 17th amendment.

I'd be interested to see the "hard" data on these assumptions. Of course, debt is greater than 1913. Let's check out the data after WW1 and WW2, adjusted for inflation.

The assumptions made with these types of statements are that today's $billion dollar a DAY war expense didn't do anything to cause debt, or that only half the folks in the USA pay fed taxes; that bad Fed Reserve bank is the all knowing problem.

If the Fed loans were "secret", why does this writer know about them? I guess, not so secret!

Here's one for the history buffs who follow the "Fed is bad" and "we need a gold standard" folks. Out of over 230 years of existence, how many of those were on a gold standard, and when?

They were secret until a recent Federal law suit forced them to reveal loans made to the EU among many other things. There is no Audit of the Feds activities on an annual basis.

This does not imply the need for a gold standard, there were many bank failures under the gold standard. The point is that proper and open management of fiscal and monetary policy is vital to a healthy economy, secret deals and high debt spell disaster no matter what is used for currency.

Printing money to meet shortfalls is just a tax applied to all to pay for excess debt.

The debt, adjusted for inflation as a percentage of GDP is higher than it has ever been when both funded and unfunded liabilities are accounted for and this is what most of us just don't understand.

Tony, it is factual that only about half of us pay federal income taxes, if you dispute this you have not been paying attention, and don't recognize it as the major wedge that divides us-it is a tool whereby much major manipulation is accomplished. One side is played against the other, an age old game that only rubes fall for, just another grifters dodge.

They were secret until a recent Federal law suit forced them to reveal loans made to the EU among many other things. There is no Audit of the Feds activities on an annual basis.

I see that your audit statement is qualified, but make no mistake; the Fed Reserve gets regularly audited by independent sources.


This does not imply the need for a gold standard, there were many bank failures under the gold standard. The point is that proper and open management of fiscal and monetary policy is vital to a healthy economy, secret deals and high debt spell disaster no matter what is used for currency.

Printing money to meet shortfalls is just a tax applied to all to pay for excess debt.


Oddly enough, "printing money" goes hand in hand with run away inflation, yet we have one of the lowest interest rates periods in US history.

There have always been bank failures. I lived through the Savings and Loan failures of the 1980's, which of course existed concurrent with the Fed Reserve.

I do not support the likely outcome of the elimination of the Fed. Which congress critters do you want running that new monetary institution?


The debt, adjusted for inflation as a percentage of GDP is higher than it has ever been when both funded and unfunded liabilities are accounted for and this is what most of us just don't understand.


Yes, the debt is huge; that is undisputed by anybody. My issue is that a Fed Reserve bank "did it", as the 100 point post suggests (and as I've heard from numerous folks in the same breath of "gold standard").

Pure and simple, a largely balanced fed budget 15 years ago (yes, there are the usual shenanigans in the accounting of that) had a Fed Reserve bank. The Great Depression had both a Fed Reserve, and a gold standard until 1933. The booming 1950's and 1960's had a Fed Reserve.

It has been there in the good and bad times in the past 100 years.


Tony, it is factual that only about half of us pay federal income taxes, if you dispute this you have not been paying attention.....


I don't see where I even addressed this issue, but yes, that's a fact. EDIT for clarity... I mentioned it in my post above, but did not dispute the simple fact.

Well, our current monetary system is unconstitutional. Per our Constitution, only Congress has the power to coin and mint money and only gold or silver can be the legal currency.

The Federal Reserve is a private corporation - it ain't in the blue pages under government, it's in the white pages near Federal Express. The Fed took us off the gold standard and effectively stole our grandparent's gold. Then in the '60s, they took us off the silver standard and stole our parent's silver. The fiat currency we have now is traded entirely on faith that when we use it, it will be accepted as currency. It is nothing more than paper. The fractional banking system is a scam - if you or I did it, we'd be in jail.

...and it's unconstitutional because Congress cannot delegate it's powers, especially to a private corporation.

Government = biggest gang in town.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not necessarily advocating a return to the gold standard as a means to fix anything/everything, merely that it is what is laid out by the Constitution as the rule of the law.

Well, our current monetary system is unconstitutional. Per our Constitution, only Congress has the power to coin and mint money and only gold or silver can be the legal currency.

The Federal Reserve is a private corporation

These "debates" always are short on facts, and big on hyperbole, which makes me cringe to even respond. Can you point to the constitution's specification about "only gold or silver can be the legal currency"?

You hear "unconstitutional" thrown around a lot by the crew lounge lawyers, yet only one of the three branches is tasked with determining if a law is legal... i.e., "unconstitutional"; I'm going to suggest that isn't you.

Here's a basic Wiki overview of that "private corporation" Federal Reserve Bank:

Federal Reserve is independent within government in that "its monetary policy decisions do not have to be approved by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government." Its authority is derived from statutes enacted by the U.S. Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Congress) and the System is subject to congressional oversight. The members of the Board of Governors, including its chairman and vice-chairman, are chosen by the President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) and confirmed by Congress. The government also exercises some control over the Federal Reserve by appointing and setting the salaries of the system's highest-level employees. Thus the Federal Reserve has both private and public aspects. The U.S. Government receives all of the system's annual profits, after a statutory dividend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend) of 6% on member banks' capital investment is paid, and an account surplus is maintained. In 2010, the Federal Reserve made a profit of $82 billion and transferred $79 billion to the U.S. Treasury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Treasury).

I absolutely do not want a return to 1907, or having political hacks handling my money any more than they do. There's a reason that our country adopted this system, and I don't wish to undo it. However, I recognize how little most Americans actually know or understand history, and thus, are prone to repeat the same mistakes over and over.


The Fed took us off the gold standard and effectively stole our grandparent's gold.


The Federal Reserve Bank took us off the gold standard? Hmmm.

So, what did the USA back their currency with prior to the gold standard? Or did you not know that we only had a gold standard for about 33 years of the over 233 years that we've been a country?

Again, these debates always have the same history challenged assumptions, and technically challenged predictions. I can almost predict your next move. :cool:

Flat tax

Abolish the IRS

Abolish the Federal Reserve

Repeal the 17th amendment.

Flat tax sounds fair enough, but I would still have graduated rates. If the IRS is gone, what replaces it to collect the taxes for the government. The SRI? The RSI? The ABC? And that new entity will be different from IRS how?

If you have a flat tax, under what authority do you use to apply it to your income without the 17th amendment?

Abolishing the Fed Res falls into the "not a good idea" area, IMHO. What mechanism does our government use to provide the benefits that the Fed was originally created to provide?

Or do we go back to the wild west? Maybe a financial panic every 20 or 30 years?

Tony, two points.

The Fed had NEVER been audited until the 2011 Federal case required it to be audited, and there still is no required annual audit.

This country has always been in debt, a single year of a balanced budget does not change the size or scope of the public debt. The public debt which consists of both funded and unfunded liabilities now approaches an estimated 200 Trillion dollars.

The problem is that the fed has been used to expand debt well beyond our ability to pay in an unholy alliance with congress, which is the cause of the current unprecedented size of the crisis.

Reform is required, and like the EU it will be forced on us by economics rather than a political agenda.

Can you point to the constitution's specification about "only gold or silver can be the legal currency"?
Article 1, Sections 8 & 10. Section 8 tells us only Congress can coin & mint money, Section 10 says States can't pay debts with anything but Gold & Silver. I know you're going to say this applies only to the states, but if the Federal Gov't will only accept Gold & Silver as legal tender from the states, then it stands to reason that Gold & Silver are the de facto standards of currency.

You hear "unconstitutional" thrown around a lot by the crew lounge lawyers, yet only one of the three branches is tasked with determining if a law is legal... i.e., "unconstitutional"; I'm going to suggest that isn't you.
Yep, you're right, but I can read. I've read the Constitution and I comprehend what it means to me. I've read the Federalist AND the Anti-Federalist papers, so I know the arguments the founders used and the struggles they worried about. They feared a central bank. That's what we have with the Fed Reserve. Congress cannot delegate away it's enumerated powers and they have.

Here's a basic Wiki overview of that "private corporation" Federal Reserve Bank:

Federal Reserve is independent within government in that "its monetary policy decisions do not have to be approved by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government." Its authority is derived from statutes enacted by the U.S. Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Congress) and the System is subject to congressional oversight. The members of the Board of Governors, including its chairman and vice-chairman, are chosen by the President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) and confirmed by Congress. The government also exercises some control over the Federal Reserve by appointing and setting the salaries of the system's highest-level employees. Thus the Federal Reserve has both private and public aspects. The U.S. Government receives all of the system's annual profits, after a statutory dividend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend) of 6% on member banks' capital investment is paid, and an account surplus is maintained. In 2010, the Federal Reserve made a profit of $82 billion and transferred $79 billion to the U.S. Treasury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Treasury).

Not that wikipedia is necessarily an authority on anything, but this passage can be bold/italicized in different ways to emphasize their private corporate status. I ask again, do you find them in the blue pages or the white pages? ;)

I absolutely do not want a return to 1907, or having political hacks handling my money any more than they do. There's a reason that our country adopted this system, and I don't wish to undo it. However, I recognize how little most Americans actually know or understand history, and thus, are prone to repeat the same mistakes over and over.
If you're implying that I don't know history, I'll tell you that you don't know what I know or don't know. You can infer, based on your preconceptions, what you think I know, but I'd put it to you that it's going to be an inaccurate inference. ;) The reason our country adopted the current system is simple - money, profit - as in any case, follow the money. Who benefits from the current system? Only the Fed. Corporatists & progressives at the turn of the century knew that you need to control the money to control the people. Make no mistake, money is just another form of control. If you can control the money, you can control everything. No, that's no conspiracy theory either...





The Federal Reserve Bank took us off the gold standard? Hmmm.

So, what did the USA back their currency with prior to the gold standard? Or did you not know that we only had a gold standard for about 33 years of the over 233 years that we've been a country?

Again, these debates always have the same history challenged assumptions, and technically challenged predictions. I can almost predict your next move. :cool:

History is written by the victors and the revisionists. I said I didn't necessarily advocate a return to the Gold Standard to solve any of our problems. Nor did I state that we had historically been on the gold standard. Do not put words into my keyboard.

... only one of the three branches is tasked with determining if a law is legal... i.e., "unconstitutional" ...

John Marshall essentially grabbed that power for the Supreme Court in "Marbury v. Madison", and the other branches let it stand. Probably just as well, or we would have the players interpreting their own rule book. In some areas, like the "Commerce Clause", that pretty much happened anyway. :rolleyes:

Flat tax sounds fair enough, but I would still have graduated rates. If the IRS is gone, what replaces it to collect the taxes for the government. The SRI? The RSI? The ABC? And that new entity will be different from IRS how?

If you have a flat tax, under what authority do you use to apply it to your income without the 17th amendment?

Abolishing the Fed Res falls into the "not a good idea" area, IMHO. What mechanism does our government use to provide the benefits that the Fed was originally created to provide?

Or do we go back to the wild west? Maybe a financial panic every 20 or 30 years?

With a flat tax you could abolish all but maybe a handful of people for collection. There would be no filings, no returns, no credits. X% of your pay is what you pay, period. Think of the money saved if the IRS were downsized by 90% and their only job was just collection of a simplified system, not enforcement of a 76k page nightmare.

The 17th amendment has to do with the popular vote for Senators, and it took away the states appointing them. Once that happened they all became corporate puppets and state sovereignty was lost.

20-30 years between fiscal crisis would be nice, as it is we're averaging one per decade since the 70's.

Think of the money saved if the IRS were downsized by 90% and their only job was just collection of a simplified system, not enforcement of a 76k page nightmare.


Ok, so not abolishing the IRS, as you originally suggested. Yes, I'd love a simplified tax structure. The best we'll get is another 1986, IMHO.


The 17th amendment has to do with the popular vote for Senators, and it took away the states appointing them. Once that happened they all became corporate puppets and state sovereignty was lost.


Sorry, didn't look that one up, and assumed it was the power to tax income amendment. Yes, I absolutely agree with you on this. Senators should remain state functions, not bank rolled, bought and paid for, popularity contests.

I know you're going to say this applies only to the states, but if the Federal Gov't will only accept Gold & Silver as legal tender from the states, then it stands to reason that Gold & Silver are the de facto standards of currency.

Yes, that one. What if we only accepted pigs for payment from Germany for their war debts. Would we be on a pig standard?

Certainly, you and I could go round and round on this, but the constitution does NOT say that gold and silver are the standards for currency. Which is why that was changed in 1900 to a gold standard, and subsequently eliminated in 1933.


They feared a central bank. That's what we have with the Fed Reserve. Congress cannot delegate away it's enumerated powers and they have.


Yes, the did not want a central bank. True. Nor did they establish one, but they could have. With the powers that are enumerated, 117 years later, the congress did in fact establish the "FEDERAL" Reserve Bank. There had been earlier failed attempts at that, also.


I ask again, do you find them in the blue pages or the white pages?


I don't know if that's the standard I use for anything, but the facts are self evident. The Fed is both quasi government, and private.


History is written by the victors and the revisionists.


So, it is. Reading most history as a school age boy, you'd think only white, english speaking men were the whole world.

I prefer to just stick to the facts. The constitution doesn't specify gold as our national currency. The Fed is far from strictly "private". Because guys of 117 years previous were afraid of a central bank does not make that not proper. Those same guys thought that Africans brought to the USA were 3/5 people, and were somebody's property. Ya, that's in the constitution, too.

Tony, two points.

The Fed had NEVER been audited until the 2011 Federal case required it to be audited, and there still is no required annual audit.

Don't get me wrong; anything government is ripe for waste, wrong-doing, graft, brother-in-law syndrome, kick backs, etc. But my view of the current Fed (since the 1980's) has done an amazing job of balancing the insane cash flow situation our congress critters have signed off on. Similarly, the virtually expected crazy inflation has not materialized in all that time.

Having an elected, unqualified political hack (like many making headlines) would be the very LAST folks I want with their hands on this crucial function.


This country has always been in debt, a single year of a balanced budget does not change the size or scope of the public debt. The public debt which consists of both funded and unfunded liabilities now approaches an estimated 200 Trillion dollars.

Yes, it's a big number. Nobody debates that. Yes, we've always had a debt. I'm not against debt, just debt so large as to impact the credit worthiness of the USA and it's ability to protect itself. That concept extends to imported oil, crucial to a world military effort.

World War 3 is always just one big F-up away. The next one will make WW2 look like a checkers match. There are lots of big players with axes to grind, and just looking for the opportunity. Being broke and foreign energy dependent impacts our readiness, and our ability to continue after the next one, if humanity does in fact survive.

The debt does not need to be paid off, but needs to be manageable, which it clearly is not currently.


The problem is that the fed has been used to expand debt well beyond our ability to pay in an unholy alliance with congress, which is the cause of the current unprecedented size of the crisis.

Reform is required, and like the EU it will be forced on us by economics rather than a political agenda.


We're probably going to disagree with how the Fed "caused" this. Congress, yes, I agree. Numerous presidents who were either leading the highway to debt (for both real and contrived reasons), sure, I'll go with that, too.

Like many endeavors that mankind has embarked on, they don't all end up rosy. I hope we don't end up with anything close to Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland..... but, our's could be worse.

All involved, none guilty? The very causes of the current crisis are both massive spending far beyond need or ability to pay, and massive interventions which reward failure and attack success.
The only reason high inflation has been avoided is that debt levels are so high the money never enters general circulation, but is instead a reward to failed business and crony connections.

Saying this system is working well or even adequately is to deny reality.

We are doing exactly as the EU has done and we should expect similar results in the future. There will be no need for smarmy platitudes to failure in the final stages of this mess.

It is quite clear the fed working with congress is the cause here, working together they have wrought disaster.

Finally, we must return to the Rule of Law, and by this I mean the equal application of basic law to all citizens without exception. We have become a nation built on exception rather than just law.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Equal protection...

One link that is not often made is that between the 16th amendment and prohibition.

Excise taxes on alcohol contributed a surprisingly large percentage of federal revenues in the decades prior to the 16th amendment. Prohibition would not have been possible without a source of revenue to replace taxes raised from alcohol.

It is also possible to argue that the passage of the 17th amendment gave lobbying groups like the ASL and the WCTU the ability to threaten, and thereby influence, incumbent senators in a way that had not been previously possible.

WW