Airline Pilot Forums

Ever heard of a waiver granted so a pilot can palace chase if he's once passed over with a QFI? I'm thinking "not" for pilots, but thought I'd poll the crowd to see if it's ever been done before.

Thanks in advance

With a QFI, Big Blue more than likely will not approve someone for Palace Chase. However, I have heard of guys conducting a "Palace Front", i.e. go guard/reserve upon ETS. Here's a link to the AFI regarding Palace Chase/Front: http://www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFI36-3205.pdf

What's a QFI?

What's a QFI?

Quality Force Indicator, something which could be any multitude of reasons good, bad or indifferent, in which "Big Blue" will try to RIF someone.

If anyone was following this, here's the answer...straight from the Palace Chase shop at AFPC. Pilots are not permitted by the AFI to Palace Chase. However, with the AF continuing to get smaller, AFPC has authorization to Palace Chase pilots this fiscal year. If a reserve/guard unit CC and current Sq/CC makes the case for why this is the right thing for the total force, it's possible.

In fact, AFPC just approved a pilot for a 2.5 year early release from AD service commitment. They are not likely to approve, however, unless the pilot is in danger of a RIF or 2nd pass over & non-continuation. Therefore this practically only applies to late rated guys or those who picked up a late or long additional ADSC for some reason.

Great news for one of my guys....

If anyone was following this, here's the answer...straight from the Palace Chase shop at AFPC. Pilots are not permitted by the AFI to Palace Chase. However, with the AF continuing to get smaller, AFPC has authorization to Palace Chase pilots this fiscal year. If a reserve/guard unit CC and current Sq/CC makes the case for why this is the right thing for the total force, it's possible.

In fact, AFPC just approved a pilot for a 2.5 year early release from AD service commitment. They are not likely to approve, however, unless the pilot is in danger of a RIF or 2nd pass over & non-continuation. Therefore this practically only applies to late rated guys or those who picked up a late or long additional ADSC for some reason.

Great news for one of my guys....

A guy I know, pilot O-4 type, just got rif'd after the AF tried to non-vol him to go teach Afghani's for a year. But, he's now got a full time ART position down in Florida. Hope it all works out for your guy.

Anyone seen the latest FY12 PSDM regarding Force Shaping? Very similar language restricting 11X's from the Palace Chase program. Indy or anyone else in the know: Does the unwritten case-by-case still apply? I'll be putting my paperwork in shortly requesting PC at the end of my UPT ADSC but with about 6 months of my PCS ADSC remaining. Justification being that it's more convenient for the unit that hired me and myself to arrive sooner rather than later. Any insights into chances for approval?

Anyone seen the latest FY12 PSDM regarding Force Shaping? Very similar language restricting 11X's from the Palace Chase program. Indy or anyone else in the know: Does the unwritten case-by-case still apply? I'll be putting my paperwork in shortly requesting PC at the end of my UPT ADSC but with about 6 months of my PCS ADSC remaining. Justification being that it's more convenient for the unit that hired me and myself to arrive sooner rather than later. Any insights into chances for approval?

I saw that memo also and called the number that was in it. Got a hold of MSgt in the PC office at AFPC who was very nice and helpful, but he also just got the memo and said he was going to spend the weekend learning it. Told me to call back Monday because that's when they are releasing official info regarding FY 12 force shaping.

PM if you need the number. I've got it on my computer at the squadron and can send it to you on Monday. Good luck! I've got 7 years left on my ADSC and looking for any chance I can find to PC!

Good luck! I've got 7 years left on my ADSC and looking for any chance I can find to PC!

I hope the Air Force is paying attention. Guys three years in ready to bail?

I've got 7 years left on my ADSC and looking for any chance I can find to PC!

Why did you sign up for 10? How could you not know what you were in for when you voluntarily signed on the line for UPT four years ago?

Pi$$ poor showing.

I hope the Air Force is paying attention. Guys three years in ready to bail?

Look, I'm no blue kool-aid guy. In fact, I jumped when I was able to separate from AD slightly prior to my ADSC via a certain program. But how can you blame the AF if a guy didn't go in with his eyes wide open? Seven years left?

Of course AD sucks. So does the real world. But it's not like he signed up before 9/11 and then got dumped on. Even if he did (like me and I suspect you)...taking a knee after 3 years?

Absolutely unacceptable.

Look, I'm no blue kool-aid guy. In fact, I jumped when I was able to separate from AD slightly prior to my ADSC via a certain program. But how can you blame the AF if a guy didn't go in with his eyes wide open? Seven years left?

Of course AD sucks. So does the real world. But it's not like he signed up before 9/11 and then got dumped on. Even if he did (like me and I suspect you)...taking a knee after 3 years?

Absolutely unacceptable.

Hey man before throw spears you may want to know why. Feel free to PM me if you want to know, but this forum isn't the place to discuss it. Cheers.

Well, I just spent 6 months or so TDY hanging out with AirGunner and I was shocked to see how worn out the AD Helo guys are. Good folks are not being retained. Craziness!

I am Guard and could not wait to get the hell away from the AD funk!

Well, I just spent 6 months or so TDY hanging out with AirGunner and I was shocked to see how worn out the AD Helo guys are. Good folks are not being retained. Craziness!

I am Guard and could not wait to get the hell away from the AD funk!

Very accruate and well stated Atlas. IMHO, "Big Blue" is currently in an identity crisis and has definitely lost its focus since I first joined. "Big Blue" does not care if we are actually good at our missions as long as we look good in regards to numbers on paper. For us AD CSAR guys constant deployments with no end in sight, worn out aircraft in the field units, and a general mentality of doing even more with even less has left a lot of us just plain tired of the B.S. I'm sure some of the same problems we have in CSAR are applicable to other airframes. With only more force reductions on the horizon I know a lot of people, who you never thought would get out of active duty, that are seriously considering their options. I would not recommend anyone join Active Duty right now. Guard/Reserve is the way to go. As for the Palace Chase, some get it apporved, some of those have gotten denied only to have been RIF'd later. As others have posted it boils down to vacancies in the unit you want to join and sometimes who you know.

Anyone seen the latest FY12 PSDM regarding Force Shaping? Very similar language restricting 11X's from the Palace Chase program. Indy or anyone else in the know: Does the unwritten case-by-case still apply? I'll be putting my paperwork in shortly requesting PC at the end of my UPT ADSC but with about 6 months of my PCS ADSC remaining. Justification being that it's more convenient for the unit that hired me and myself to arrive sooner rather than later. Any insights into chances for approval?

I'm a pilot at Randolph. Been to the PC office a 1/2 dozen times to talk w/ them face-face. Here is the real info you seek:

PC / PF are programs defined by 36-3205. Think of them as the "normal" ones. The Force Shaping Palace Chase pgrm is a seperate deal all-together, that does not allow 11X's, etc.

My UPT ADSC expires 6/2012. I just requested PC for 3/2012. Here is what the PC office told me, to better help my request (before I applied).

Have a letter of intent to hire from a USAFR/ANG unit

Get an In Service Recruiter (ISR)

Write a good personal memo explaining why it is in the best interest of all involved to approve your request

Fully completed FM1288
Note: 1st endors (WG/CC) Just put all the info in. They DO NOT need to sign the 1288. When they get your vMPF Palace Chase app via email, they will see, review and digitally coord it (this constitutes their sig).

2nd endors: gaining unit info/sig
3rd endors: ISR info/sig

FM2631: statement of understanding
You and witness both sign.

90 days min for requested DOS.

That's all I know so far. ~1 yr from UPT ADSC is a good rule of thumb....from what rumors i've heard.

Good luck all.

Thanks flyn...exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Package sent up as of yesterday. Will post when I have approval/dissaproval.

Anyone know how strict they hold you to the 4-yr commitment for transferring post 9/11 education benefits? I may have a great opportunity with a reserve unit, but have 2 years remaining on said post 9/11 commitment. I'm complete with my UPT commitment fwiw.

Thanks

Also, what if the reserve Position is AGR?... Can u simply fulfill the post 9/11 commitment in the reserves as an AGR?

Also, what if the reserve Position is AGR?... Can u simply fulfill the post 9/11 commitment in the reserves as an AGR?

https://gum-crm.csd.disa.mil

If you have a CAC reader at home or you can look it up from work this link will tell you pretty much all you need to know about most Force Shaping programs. Just look under the link for officers and then look for FY12 Force Shaping. They have a couple of power point briefs that explain the available programs ad nauseum and most conditions and limitations of each program.

I'm good buds with my MAJCOM/A1 - he says they expect another round of reductions in the spring. So, if you get rejected for your ADSC waiver now...just wait a bit.

i would not count on a pilot (with an ADSC) to "voluntarily" depart in the next few years... the AF will "non-vol" pilots as they cannot protect a specific AFSC during RIFs. AF is still expected to be short pilots over the next 10 years... problem is most in heavies and not enough in RPA/Fighters.

i would not count on a pilot (with an ADSC) to "voluntarily" depart in the next few years... the AF will "non-vol" pilots as they cannot protect a specific AFSC during RIFs. AF is still expected to be short pilots over the next 10 years... problem is most in heavies and not enough in RPA/Fighters.

I know several pilots with ADSC who would punch today if they could.

I know more pilots with and without ADSC who will stay as long as they can.

Horses for courses.

I think they can protect AFSC during a RIF - it's called "needs of the Air Force", but I don't think they will. I know they can target AFSCs as well.

My MAJCOM A1 staff recently (Oct) briefed we're 300+ pilots short and have no possible way to get healthy - can't make more, train more, or retain more. They know of the coming hiring boom (or at least all the news that reports/supports the concept) and they can't do anything about it. They know it's going to be worse than the late '90s...especially after a decade of deployments, 179s, 365s, and other "good deals" - despite my MAJCOM historically having one of the highest bonus take rates. And they will mis-manage it just as badly as they do everyvtime because they are reactionary instead of proactive...and they have to be, unfortunately.

Every change, however, is a possibility or opportunity. If someone wants out, with or without an ADSC, when they're reducing, force shaping, or whatever - that's as good a time as any.

Sq/CC's, Wg/CC's, functionals and even the Palace Chase folks can only concur or non-concur w/ a Palace Chase request....period!

The SAF (Sec of the AF) is the ONLY approving/dis-approving authority...period!

Concurrence from all parties us a good thing though and you really want that "letter of intent" to hire from the ANG/Res unit.

Right now, currently....SAF has been approving them....even w/ leadership/functional non-concurrence.

FWIW. I'm good buds w/ most functionals/rated staff dudes and have been working close w/ the the PC guru on my future. I'm going on a 2-day hunt w/ most of them 6-8 Jan.

Also, a B-52 guy w/ 1.5 yr UPT ADSC remaining, that works for me, just got his PC approved.

Anyone know how strict they hold you to the 4-yr commitment for transferring post 9/11 education benefits? I may have a great opportunity with a reserve unit, but have 2 years remaining on said post 9/11 commitment. I'm complete with my UPT commitment fwiw.

Thanks

I think it is more a matter of "break in service". I think if you transfer straight over to ANG/Res....w/ no BIS, you are ok.....but check w/ the VA. You should be able to serve out your TEB ADSC in the ANG/Res.

Look, I'm no blue kool-aid guy. In fact, I jumped when I was able to separate from AD slightly prior to my ADSC via a certain program. But how can you blame the AF if a guy didn't go in with his eyes wide open? Seven years left?

Of course AD sucks. So does the real world. But it's not like he signed up before 9/11 and then got dumped on. Even if he did (like me and I suspect you)...taking a knee after 3 years?

Absolutely unacceptable.

Totally missed this post earlier.

Tell that to the first dudes that dropped UAVs out of pilot training (I was there for that fiasco)! When we showed up to training there was no talk of UAVs going to studs out of UPT. Then about 3 weeks prior to our drop we are told to expect 5 UAVs out of 15 assignable studs! It the same speech we were told that if you go to the UAV, you will most likely not ever leave the UAV...and OBTW, the commitment is still 10 years... There is so some good news...there are now two bases you can go to! Two garden spots...Creech or Cannon!

Transfer of 9/11 benefits will work if you get an AGR gig... afraid you will lose it if you go traditional... read the contract you signed. AF will waive the ADSC associated... but you lose the benefit and you have to repay if you have already tapped into it.

More force cuts:

http://www.military.com/news/article/air-force-news/af-announces-new-force-cuts.html?ESRC=airforce-a.nl

What's the average turn arount time on PC paperwork?

I submitted on Dec 15th and my paperwork just went off the base yesterday (The holiday did hold it up somewhat). My ISR says 3 to 4 weeks once it gets to AFPC.

Totally missed this post earlier.

Tell that to the first dudes that dropped UAVs out of pilot training (I was there for that fiasco)! When we showed up to training there was no talk of UAVs going to studs out of UPT. Then about 3 weeks prior to our drop we are told to expect 5 UAVs out of 15 assignable studs! It the same speech we were told that if you go to the UAV, you will most likely not ever leave the UAV...and OBTW, the commitment is still 10 years... There is so some good news...there are now two bases you can go to! Two garden spots...Creech or Cannon!

True, that sucks. It also sucked building my own tent in BF middle E after 9/11.

Those guys weren't expecting what they got, and neither were my buds and I. But I signed on the dotted line, and I honored my commitment--which, by the way, was to serve my country, and not myself. If those UAV-assigned guys were that averse, they could have SIE'd and taken their chances. Apparently they decided not to do that.

Sure, it sucked. Leadership generally sucked, especially on the O-5/6 and above level. Deployments sucked, my airframe sucked, pretty much everything other than my buds sucked.

But I signed on the dotted line, and I was not entitled to anything more from the AF than my paycheck and associated benefits.

This ridiculous sense of entitlement must be a generational thing. Enough already.

True, that sucks. It also sucked building my own tent in BF middle E after 9/11.

Those guys weren't expecting what they got, and neither were my buds and I. But I signed on the dotted line, and I honored my commitment--which, by the way, was to serve my country, and not myself. If those UAV-assigned guys were that averse, they could have SIE'd and taken their chances. Apparently they decided not to do that.

Sure, it sucked. Leadership generally sucked, especially on the O-5/6 and above level. Deployments sucked, my airframe sucked, pretty much everything other than my buds sucked.

But I signed on the dotted line, and I was not entitled to anything more from the AF than my paycheck and associated benefits.

This ridiculous sense of entitlement must be a generational thing. Enough already.

Ditto... well said.

Anyone know how strict they hold you to the 4-yr commitment for transferring post 9/11 education benefits? I may have a great opportunity with a reserve unit, but have 2 years remaining on said post 9/11 commitment. I'm complete with my UPT commitment fwiw.

Thanks

I have been looking into this as well. Have a great opportunity with an ANG unit but I'm tied down by my transfer ADSC. Turns out you definitely CAN transfer your additional commitment to the ANG or AFRC. But, and this is the tough part, you do it through Palace Chase. I currently have another 2.5 years on my transfer ADSC and will have to get Palace Chase approval. Pretty sure my 11F functional with non-concur so hoping it gets approved at the SAF level. If it's approved, the commitment simply transfers over to AFRC or ANG. Simple process. Tough part is getting big blue to let you go if you're an 11F or other undermanned career field...

True, that sucks. It also sucked building my own tent in BF middle E after 9/11.

Those guys weren't expecting what they got, and neither were my buds and I. But I signed on the dotted line, and I honored my commitment--which, by the way, was to serve my country, and not myself. If those UAV-assigned guys were that averse, they could have SIE'd and taken their chances. Apparently they decided not to do that.

Sure, it sucked. Leadership generally sucked, especially on the O-5/6 and above level. Deployments sucked, my airframe sucked, pretty much everything other than my buds sucked.

But I signed on the dotted line, and I was not entitled to anything more from the AF than my paycheck and associated benefits.

This ridiculous sense of entitlement must be a generational thing. Enough already.

Whatever. I built my own tent, too, then flew a 9 hour sortie in afghanistan that night. It was a minor inconvenience and par for the course in November 2001. Comparing that to having your life long dream crushed overnight is a stretch. I'm thinking if you got non vol'd to UAS you'd be singing a different tune. Btw, what exactly were you expecting that you didn't get? You make it sound like you expected a squad of E-4s to build your freaking tent for you. Talk about a sense of entitlement.

It also sucked building my own tent in BF middle E after 9/11.

OMG!!!! You had to build your own tent! Dude...that does suck, glad you made it out ok.

But I signed on the dotted line, and I honored my commitment--which, by the way, was to serve my country, and not myself. If those UAV-assigned guys were that averse, they could have SIE'd and taken their chances. Apparently they decided not to do that.

There were a few that did SIE! Do I agree with that? No…but it was their right. I'm not going to look down on them for not wanting spend the next 10 years, not flying...which in all reality is what most of us signed up to do. I'm sure they were either let go or got some crappy deal, but at least they can get out in a few years, vice 10 years! When I was leaving IFF they were tossing around the idea of moving the assignment night to after graduation to keep this from happening (even the leadership knew this was a crappy deal)...I’m guessing that never happened. Probably, because these "entitled" kids actually moved on and did their duty. I never said they didn't shut up and color...still doesn't mean that the situation doesn't suck for them. But good job jumping on the entitlement bandwagon so quick.

Sure, it sucked. Leadership generally sucked, especially on the O-5/6 and above level. Deployments sucked, my airframe sucked, pretty much everything other than my buds sucked.

But here is the real question....we're you actually flying? Some of these guys will, most likely, never get to fly (for the AF anyway). I have heard some have recently escaped but in very small numbers. But imagine how you'd feel if you were told that you would be operating UAVs for the next 10 years of your life!

But I signed on the dotted line, and I was not entitled to anything more from the AF than my paycheck and associated benefits.

A few in our government think that those benefits may not be an entitlement anymore. Let's take away that free health care for all those who are retired and see if any sense of entitlement pops out of our older generations...

This ridiculous sense of entitlement must be a generational thing. Enough already.

Yes, you're right...no one from the previous generations has ever complained about anything. Where is that "Dear Boss" letter...

True, that sucks. It also sucked building my own tent in BF middle E after 9/11.

Those guys weren't expecting what they got, and neither were my buds and I. But I signed on the dotted line, and I honored my commitment--which, by the way, was to serve my country, and not myself. If those UAV-assigned guys were that averse, they could have SIE'd and taken their chances. Apparently they decided not to do that.

Sure, it sucked. Leadership generally sucked, especially on the O-5/6 and above level. Deployments sucked, my airframe sucked, pretty much everything other than my buds sucked.

But I signed on the dotted line, and I was not entitled to anything more from the AF than my paycheck and associated benefits.

This ridiculous sense of entitlement must be a generational thing. Enough already.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on the bait-and-switch UAV drop with a ten-year commitment. Nobody signed up for ten years to fly UAV's...they should have had the obligation reduced to 4-5. That was a bone job.

But I signed on the dotted line, and I honored my commitment--which, by the way, was to serve my country, and not myself.

I think that sums it up--there are no guarantees after signing the pilot training paperwork--and the AF has never claimed otherwise.

I agree with rick that a shorter ADSC or MWS follow-on for the guys who got blindsided into the UAV would have been a more equitable solution. It was surely workable if the AF wanted to do the right thing by those guys.

You make it sound like you expected a squad of E-4s to build your freaking tent for you. Talk about a sense of entitlement.

...and how did you perform on that 9-hour sortie?

I don't know about you, but my job was to show up mentally and physically prepared to fly so I could provide the best possible support for the guys on the ground taking fire or running the convoy.

Saddling us with ancillary tasks such as building a place to sleep prior to flying was a ridiculously mismanaged leadership snafu. There are guys trained and paid to set up a base in a fraction of the time it takes us to do it. That's why they're here--they are "support" troops. Just like I am trained to support the ground troops, there are guys trained to support me.

Thanks for the war story, but I rolled into the sack 4 hours before my 8 hour sortie on night 1 of OEF on 7 Oct. I consider it a complete leadership failure.

Short answer, yes, I did expect a "squad of E-4s to build my freaking tent for me." Or O-6s. I don't care. The AF ****ed up.

...and how did you perform on that 9-hour sortie?

I don't know about you, but my job was to show up mentally and physically prepared to fly so I could provide the best possible support for the guys on the ground taking fire or running the convoy.

Saddling us with ancillary tasks such as building a place to sleep prior to flying was a ridiculously mismanaged leadership snafu. There are guys trained and paid to set up a base in a fraction of the time it takes us to do it. That's why they're here--they are "support" troops. Just like I am trained to support the ground troops, there are guys trained to support me.

Thanks for the war story, but I rolled into the sack 4 hours before my 8 hour sortie on night 1 of OEF on 7 Oct. I consider it a complete leadership failure.

Short answer, yes, I did expect a "squad of E-4s to build my freaking tent for me." Or O-6s. I don't care. The AF ****ed up.

Then you expected too much. Sorry the war wasn't more like Red Flag for you.

Then you expected too much. Sorry the war wasn't more like Red Flag for you.

:D Spoken like a tac airlifter! ;) Love it!

Then you expected too much. Sorry the war wasn't more like Red Flag for you.

Sorry your track select didn't work out for you.

Sorry your track select didn't work out for you.

Your first post makes more sense, now.

They only look six months down the road...........

They only look six months down the road..............

So you're saying they only look six months down the road........

Yeah it double posted my bad. But it was supposed to be attached to a previous comment. about the USAF sight picture when it comes to rated guys. One of my buddies that got cut in the rif never saw his package and was a 135/T6 IP. He was finishing PIT when he found out.

Big Will??????

.......................

Does anyone know if more cuts are coming down the line? I also wonder what the take rate for the bonus was this year in comparison to previous rates?

Does anyone know if more cuts are coming down the line? I also wonder what the take rate for the bonus was this year in comparison to previous rates?

I think that is a stat that is published, quietly sometimes but it is usually available. I would love to see that also.

The last we heard from our leadership is no RIF this year so no cuts for 2013, but expect a RIF board next year which usually means the board would meet in September of 2013 and you'd be off the books in March of 2014. That's the one I'm banking on at least.

The last we heard from our leadership is no RIF this year so no cuts for 2013, but expect a RIF board next year which usually means the board would meet in September of 2013 and you'd be off the books in March of 2014. That's the one I'm banking on at least.

Just sat through a briefing from the AF/A1 Lt Gen Jones and he basically said what is said here. No more this year but expect 1 more RIF in 2013. He also said that is up for discussion as the AF thinks they may have hit their required numbers after this last round.

PC approved, 2003 11M, KC-135