Airline Pilot Forums

Assume Tom and Rick are flying a night cross country in a 172 from Mountainville to Springfield. Tom is a private pilot but has no instrument rating while Rick is a private pilot and does have an instrument rating. Before the flight, the two pilots agree that Tom will be the PIC while Rick will be sitting in the right seat. The flight is uneventful up until Tom accidentally flies into a deck of clouds and is now in IMC. Rick assumes flight controls, notifies ATC that they are now in IMC over mountainous terrain and requests an IFR clearance to climb/descend until they are back in VMC. Once they are back in VMC Rick cancels IFR and gives the controls back to Tom for the remainder of the trip.

Now when they land Tom is told to call the FAA for a possible violation. My question is: who would be at fault here? Tom accidentally flew into IMC while PIC but Rick is the one who took control since he had an instrument rating, so technically he assumed PIC, at least until they were back in the clear. If there were two PICs on the trip, wouldn't both get a violation? Even though Rick wasn't PIC when Tom flew into IMC, could it be argued that Rick needed to monitor the flight better?

While Rick assumed control, he did so only after the violation took place. I would argue that Rick was operating under an emergency situation (at least during the time that he was PIC and any possible regulations were being broken) so he would be off the hook.

Note that the Feds like to do whatever they want and there really is little to no recourse available.

The only clear thing in your scenario is that the assigned PIC, who also flew the plan into IMC, would be likely violated.

Whether the other pilot would also be violated is a question that has no clear 100% answer. The FAA (and maybe ultimately a hearing officer, ALJ, the full NTSB panel, and the courts) would investigate and a decision on that would be reached, which might or might not apply the next time a similar scenario takes place.

If you're thinking that only one pilot can be violated, you're making a common mistake.

That's also leaving out the question of whether there's an accident or other circumstance that gets the civil or criminal courts involved.

Perhaps if they were to say to ATC "about to be IMC, request IFR clearance" than a violation could be averted. By saying that you flew into IMC and request a clearance, your pretty much declaring over the radio that you just violated an FAR...

But to answer your question, fault would probably lie with Tom the PIC. Rick may not have any administrative action taken against him, more of a "shame on you" type of thing…but you never know..

Perhaps if they were to say to ATC "about to be IMC, request IFR clearance" than a violation could be averted. By saying that you flew into IMC and request a clearance, your pretty much declaring over the radio that you just violated an FAR...

I can't see clouds at night, but a possible "out".

They can and will go after both pilots on board. If you were an active participant in the flight they will bust you, regardless of who was PIC. Just because it's a single-pilot airplane does not mean they cannot hold two pilots accountable.

As a practical matter:
1) don't confess, and don't lie. Don't say "we just went IMC," or "we're about to go IMC," just request an IFR clearance.
2) do not call the FAA after you land. All the reasons have been previously posted on these boards.

In the past, the highest-rated pilot on board usually got the blame, preflight agreements notwithstanding.

In the past, the highest-rated pilot on board usually got the blame, preflight agreements notwithstanding.Urban legend.

If you get an inquiry from the FAA, anything you tell them (other than an ASAP report) can be used against you. It may be better to contact a lawyer before you talk to them and discuss options.

As to who is violated and who is not, there is no black and white answer. Depending on the facts and circumstances, the FAA may pursue certificate actions against multiple pilots.

If you get an inquiry from the FAA, anything you tell them (other than an ASAP report) can be used against you. It may be better to contact a lawyer before you talk to them and discuss options.

As to who is violated and who is not, there is no black and white answer. Depending on the facts and circumstances, the FAA may pursue certificate actions against multiple pilots.

Assuming it is real, the situation would really only arise with intent or significant carelessness, and I would also assume fault lies with Tom. However, I would guarantee the regulators will ask questions like "did you just flirt with IMC knowing that Rick could bail you out" etc.

In a situation where you KNOW you did something wrong or shady, +1000 to getting a lawyer. If you are honestly, clearly innocent, it may still be worth getting a lawyer... Better call Saul!

So if Tom filed the flight plan how would the feds even know Rick was on the airplane? Granted I have not filled out a flight plan in a long time, but there was not a place to list passengers (just the total # on board), let alone whether they held pilot certificates.

Remember you cannot lie to the feds, but you also do not have to answer questions either. We are talking about two private pilots here, not pros. IMO Tom needs to stay quiet about Rick and take his (fictional) lumps.

In a situation where you KNOW you did something wrong or shady, +1000 to getting a lawyer. If you are honestly, clearly innocent, it may still be worth getting a lawyer... Better call Saul!It's just as important to speak with a lawyer either way.

So if Tom filed the flight plan how would the feds even know Rick was on the airplane?

Just to clarify: they might not even know Tom was on the plane if no vfr flight plan was filed, and I've never heard anyone tell their name when getting a popup. They would only know any names through phone calls, registered owner of the aircraft, etc.

So if Tom filed the flight plan how would the feds even know Rick was on the airplane? Granted I have not filled out a flight plan in a long time, but there was not a place to list passengers (just the total # on board), let alone whether they held pilot certificates.

Remember you cannot lie to the feds, but you also do not have to answer questions either. We are talking about two private pilots here, not pros. IMO Tom needs to stay quiet about Rick and take his (fictional) lumps.

Somebody would have to tell them obviously, but it might be his "buddy", who either lets it slip innocently or intentionally tries to divert blame. A lawyer would probably tell him to throw his buddy under the bus in order to muddy the waters.

It would seem that the PIC is the one who "will" get a violation for IMC without an IFR clearance in controlled airspace (if the FAA does pursue an enforcement action).

Now, with respect to the other pilot taking control and dismantling the situation, it is unclear. My rational sense says that he was responding to a potentially life threatening situation (being in IMC without a clearance) which, in my opinion, would constitute an emergency and therefore, was deviating from the regulations to the extent necessary to meet that emergency... but who the FAA issues blame to is not necessarily always a rational science.

The only advice I have been given to avoid situations like this are two very simple quotes:

"Never miss a good opportunity to keep your mouth shut" -A very smart APC User-

and if you must open it...

"Don't use seven words when four will do" -Rusty (Ocean's Eleven)

It would seem that the PIC is the one who "will" get a violation for IMC without an IFR clearance in controlled airspace (if the FAA does pursue an enforcement action).

Now, with respect to the other pilot taking control and dismantling the situation, it is unclear. My rational sense says that he was responding to a potentially life threatening situation (being in IMC without a clearance) which, in my opinion, would constitute an emergency and therefore, was deviating from the regulations to the extent necessary to meet that emergency... but who the FAA issues blame to is not necessarily always a rational science.I don't have a link to ti, but I recall an NTSB case out there where a pilot who "took over" ended up taking the rap for an violation. It's a little bit different because, the violation occurred after the pilot took over, so while the original PIC may have st up the situation, it was the "takeover" PIC who did the violation.

But it was one those where you end up shaking your head and saying, "what the heck were they thinking?" It does show how some of the "who's at fault" in multi-pilot crews analysis can get complicated.

But, unless there is some mitigating factor, the PIC will be held accountable, with other pilots considered for additional violations based on a combination of their assigned duties and their actual conduct.

IMO Tom needs to stay quiet about Rick and take his (fictional) lumps.

But if Rick chimed in on the radio after the incident took place, doesn't that involve him? I could see if Tom made all the radio calls, but since Rick made one, it's possible he might have to answer to the Feds as well.....as a rated pilot.