Airline Pilot Forums

"...you can do like Bob Lavender, Bill Berman, Ron Coalson, Chuck Henry, and Bill Rathbun, and you can pick up your marbles and go home. How can you quit the union, and turn around and preach about unity?"

TonyC,

You wrote the above statement to me on another thread. To avoid the clutter there, I am writing to you here:

1. I would ask you to do as I have done and put your full name and qualifications on your postings so that I can better understand your experience. Right now, to me, you are just a shadowy character with no history or credibility. As Bill Berman said to a critic, "I've got a 35 year pin and I've got a battle pin, what have you got?"

2. There are four posters on my "ignore" list. You are not one of them because you do not resort to profanity. I kind of like having you write because it give readers an opportunity to compare your writings to mine. They can make the decision about the content and quality.

3. I provided you with the names of several of the most valiant pilots in the profession (I don't include myself in that description), all with tremendous experience and willingness to fight the real battles. Yet, you describe their decisions to resign from ALPA as "mind boggling." I would guess that they would describe you as conspicuously naive.

Mind you, these are the people that gave you the lifestyle and salary that you enjoy; not Dave Webb, not Wally Huggins, and not the FedEx MEC--these individuals are simply riding the wave created by the true warriors. As you know, it cost Chuck Henry about 500K in lost compensation to go on strike for two years, then start over several times before ending up at FedEx. That is far more "dues" than you will ever pay. Now, all he asks is for the ability to fly past 60 in order to support his family. It is time for reciprocity, not criticism. Who do you think is going to fight the next war for you if this is the treatment they get?

The answer is, of course, no one. That is why, in spite of all the union threats, no wars are being fought.

4. How can you quit the union, and turn around and preach about unity?

I suggest that you read the posts from other pilots, especially the new one titled, "United Pilots - Industry Laughing Stock?

Comment: I find it unconcienable that with furloughed pilots on the street, a UAL pilot wearing a union pin could waive the contract, pick up extra time (you call it jr/sr manning?)

Following comment: In THIS "Association", that is "ops normal"

ALPA membership has little or nothing to do with Unity. Many of the posts on this board, including some of your own, I think, relate to the fact that this is a highly divided profession and nothing is being done to fix it.

Two years ago, AFL-CIO membership was decimated when five of its largest unions "quit." They claimed that the AFL-CIO is dying because of its emphasis on politics rather than membership initiative. The group of "quitters" included the nation's largest and fastest-growing union, the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), led by Andrew Stern. When asked by Leslie Stahl if it wouldn't be better to create change from the "inside," Stern replied, "I have tried to get it to change from the inside for ten years, and nothing has worked." Thus, there is now a new federation calld "Change to Win." I like that title.

Likewise, ALPA is entrenched in the past. It has an LEC system that is ineffecient and ineffective in dealing with modern problems, and it has officials that appear worried worried only about their own pocketbooks and positions. I believe that many pilots understand this and will strongly embrace an ethical approach to unionism where fairness across the board, junior to senior, becomes the rule. Like a breath of fresh air.

I am more patient than Andrew Stern. I have been watching our professional fiasco develop from the "inside" for 28 years. I have written about it and the solutions extensively, and and each attempt to publish has been thwarted by ALPA officials. I am not putting up with this juvenile behavior any longer. You may not have the hands-on experience to understand this yet, but I and others do. ALPA is the enemy of Unity and it is time for a big change.

Now, please identify yourself. It will make you accountable for the things you write. And, maybe we can make some progress.

Bob

Bob,
You are clearly an articulate guy, have opinions which you share freely, and are entitled to do so on an open forum. What you don't have is credibility due to your non member status. As a patriotic American; when you vote for leadership and they are not elected and than that leadership acts in a way contrary to what you think is right and best for your country, you don't disown your country. You work withing the system, convince others, within the system and than accept the will of the majority and elected leadership. Its the same in a union.

You work withing the system, convince others, within the system and than accept the will of the majority and elected leadership. Its the same in a union.

Hmm, work within the system?? Why did the guys that signed some document in Philadelphia in 1776 not agree with your logic?;)

foxhunter...

They did try and work within the system...that effort failed..they didn't quit and go home, they started a new system, we call it the United States of America. Maybe you can resurrect the FPA or another such animal instead of taking your ball and going home.

JMO

Pilot7576

foxhunter...

Maybe you can resurrect the FPA or another such animal instead of taking your ball and going home.Pilot7576

Yeah, right. ALPA is broken here at FDX. That's why we got such a crummy T/A compared to the two that FPA (interest based, cost neutral bargaining) delivered.

At least Foxhunter rejoined.

I've never seen Lavender's name associated with any committee work nor have I ever seen it as a candidate for any elected union position.

Yeah, right. ALPA is broken here at FDX. That's why we got such a crummy T/A compared to the two that FPA (interest based, cost neutral bargaining) delivered.
At least Foxhunter rejoined.
I've never seen Lavender's name associated with any committee work nor have I ever seen it as a candidate for any elected union position.

Amen.........lets not forget that the Majority of ALPA spoke.

The Change is going to happen eventually anyway. I doubt seriously that ALPA can speed it up or slow it down.

Put your money where your mouth is Mr. Lavender.

Bob,

Why does knowing who Tony C is lend credibility to his positions. You either agree with them on their own merit or you don't. You seem to spout off about your own opinion asking lots of questions but rarely deliver answers when you are asked a question. A little while ago you stated that a pilot should be able to fly as long as they were competent. I asked you to give me your method of measuring competence and defend how your method is not just as arbitrary as age 60. Still waiting for a reply. Dc said it well, when you quit the union you gave up part of your voice. If congress doesn't act in time for you are you going to stop paying taxes? Maybe competence could be measured by how quickly you are able to upgrade to Captian? Isn't that what companies are hiring, future Captains?

"Maybe competence could be measured by how quickly you are able to upgrade to Captian? Isn't that what companies are hiring, future Captains?"

Game, set and match!!! Nicely done pinseeker. You just nailed a hole in one. My personal preference is to ignore those that ignore their obligations yet reap the rewards of others dues money and hard work. Freeloaders have no say so their opinion is worth what they pay. Nada, zippy, zero, zilch. Why a dude that can't upgrade to the left seat wants to pull gear past Age 60 is beyond me. Anyway, just let him and his non member buddies cry in the beer our contract bonus will buy for them. But, if you can't ignore them, at least point out what they are really all about and you did that nicely.

Tony C, don't give NMB (NonMemberBob) the time of day until he pays his way! You owe him exactly what he gives us...nothing!

Bob,

...You seem to spout off about your own opinion asking lots of questions but rarely deliver answers when you are asked a question. A little while ago you stated that a pilot should be able to fly as long as they were competent. I asked you to give me your method of measuring competence and defend how your method is not just as arbitrary as age 60. Still waiting for a reply. Dc said it well, when you quit the union you gave up part of your voice. If congress doesn't act in time for you are you going to stop paying taxes? Maybe competence could be measured by how quickly you are able to upgrade to Captian? Isn't that what companies are hiring, future Captains?

Actually, I do answer virtually all questions. The answers are in the body of the texts that I have written. However, I did consider your questions legitimate and I specifically answered almost all on 9/23:

The pilots who crossed the picket line at CAL are all ALPA members now. They were brought into the fold with no penance on their part nor any abridgement of their seniority. They were brought in for their dues dollars and now you and they are "brothers." You are on the same side. On the other hand, some longtime CAL pilots such as striker, Jim Personett, have resigned from ALPA because of its breach of ethics. Thanks for asking.

In my opinion, there should be no age restriction on flying commercially; individual competence and capability should be the rule. A change to 65 should be only temporary until the lid can come off all together. In the long run, this is healthy for our society in every way as long as people have an option in how to run their own lives.

I have been writing about the impending Age 60 train wreck at FedEx for 10 years and have always been opposed to the Rule. The ideal situation is to have the OPTION to fly to 65 just as ALPA carrier, Air Canada Jazz, is currently doing. They may retire at 55 with a penalty, 60 with no penalty, and fly to 65 if they desire to put more money in their Plans. This is the best model as it permits people to choose which option is best for them, personally, given the changes in the industry over the last 28 years. Unfortunately, we are stuck in the past and this is causing significant disunity within the profession.

ALPA's inability to deal with the retirement problem on several levels is symbolic of its general failure to perform....

Pilot competence should be measured as it is now. I do not see the need for change. Some countries already have no age limit and things seem to be working out fairly well. The medical matter is really a red herring that diverts attention from the principle of the matter: Age discrimination.

Thank you for the opportunity to answer again.

Bob

Bob,

Let's see...Tony C....probably Tony with a last name starts with C...recently in a captain's upgrade class for the -10 (his info...not me spilling the beans..).

You are a real swift one...can't figure out who he might be...

My name is Aaron. My locker is 3135. Please skip putting any more of your crap in it. Fox--your locker is not far from mine. If I see you there I'll enjoy having a cup of coffee with you--even if you are an ornery old cuss and I'm on the other side of the age 60 rule battle. One of us will be ****ed when age 60 stays/goes, but until then you are at least working within the organization. You *****--but you pay your dues. I do appreciate your change of heart--even if we find ourselves on opposite sides of the arguments sometime.

Bob: Please explain the train wreck that is impending at FedEx due to the age 60 rule. You throw that term around like it is some factual thing, yet you haven't actually explained anything. What trainwreck is it exactly that you THINK is occuring at FedEx due to the age 60 rule?

FJ

FDX 727 S/O in year 5, not that it should matter.

You know, I've also wanted to find out about this train wreck! RJ if its coming why don't you leave and go somewhere else?:) Is it just at FedEx or is it an industry wide problem?? Or maybe its your personal train wreck. And besides, we don't fly trains, maybe thats why no one but you has figured this out. I haven't seen any emails from company officials warning us about the Train Wreck! Gee maybe you should warn them too:rolleyes:, seeing how your the smartest guy in the Airline Industry. You say you can solve all the problems that ALPA is incapable of solving, why don't you take all your BONUS MONEY and form a new union. If 80% of all pilots are for your ideas you should have no problem getting them to join. Then you can collect dues and when someone quits because they don't like some issue you can label them as a freeloader!! Oh thats right, you wouldn't do that would you??

I have been writing about the impending Age 60 train wreck at FedEx for 10 years and have always been opposed to the Rule.

Oh Dear! How will we ever fly the planes when Bob is Gone!!! :confused:

"Oh Dear! How will we ever fly the planes when Bob is Gone!!! "

With F/O's that can upgrade to Captain and pay their dues!!

I implore you all to stop giving NMB a forum for his selfish views. Ignore him at all costs. He thinks he is some sort of Nostradamus and knows more than ALPA, the FAA and FedEx business planners about the future of aviation. If he is so smart why is he still here, flying as a First Officer no less? He refuses to pay his dues yet takes all benefits, he wants to work past 60 to make up for the fact that he never upgraded to Captain, and he thinks his doing the right thing once exempts him from doing it the rest of his career. The only train wreck coming down the pike is his life after he retires because he is not ready to go. He is the poster child for selfishness and until he pays his back dues and rejoins the union he should be ignored. If you want a say, pay your way!!!

Bob,

You still didn't answer the questions. If you say competence and ability should be measeured the same as it is now, then retire at 60, the way we do it now. If ICAO doesn't think that there is a safety issue after age 60, then why can't you have 2 pilots past age 60 flying together? If you are indeed fighting against age discremination(sp?) then why stop at age 60. You have to be 16 to drive a car but not fly an airplane. You have to be 21 to buy a beer but you can be drafted and vote at 18. You have to be 35 to run for President. AARP even has an age restriction to join and receive their benefits. Are you against all age discremination or just the ones that effect you now? Why can't a 10 year old who can drive a car and pass the written test like the rest of us have a drivers license? How can a company or the Gov measure competence? Right now, if you aren't competent, you have either crashed or have been fired. Is that your solution? Waiting for your response. Please make it something new and not your same old diatribe.

And apparently JL thinks your a dirtbag too based on his latest diatribes...

Maybe he did get that part right.

I would ask you to do as I have done and put your full name and qualifications on your postings so that I can better understand your experience. Right now, to me, you are just a shadowy character with no history or credibility.



If you're a FedEx pilot, you can figure out who I am. As a matter of personal safety and security, I will not advertise my full name on a public internet forum. I would not divulge your identity on a public forum - - you did. I know several of the contributors to this and other forums, and more know me. My name, after all, is less cryptic than fedupbusdriver or nitefr8er.

I do not, however, hide behind anonymity to spew words that I would never say to your face. I may be outspoken, and I may be opinionated, but I am not hiding behind a mask to throw darts.

If that small degree of anonymity creates a problem for you, so be it. You can be assured my name is NOT on the list where yours appears - - the FedEx ALPA NON-MEMBERS list.





Now, all [Chuck Henry] asks is for the ability to fly past 60 in order to support his family.




Chuck can pay his back-dues and become part of the democratic process of ALPA. If he winds up in the minority opinion, he can be a responsible member of the community and go along with the majority. He can continue to try to change from within, or he can act like a crybaby and quit. Sadly, he chose the latter.




You wanna talk some more? Grab a box of kleenex, pay your back dues, and get your name off the list.






.

with all this talk of competence..why can't lavender upgrade...i have heard that he busted a few times...JLs letter was directed at him..he is the problem!

Where are you RJ? You haven't responded to any of these posts. Don't have answers, out spending your pay raise and bonus that ALPA negotiated for you?? I don't hear you complaining about the TA? FREELOADER!!!!

If you're a FedEx pilot, you can figure out who I am...As a matter of personal safety and security, I will not advertise my full name on a public internet forum....

I have no idea who you are but I totally understand your decision to remain anonymous for security purposes. I choose to not be anonymous because I have learned that, in our society, risk-taking enhances credibility while anonymity reduces it. Certainly, traditional "union talk" is not taken seriously by anyone these days.

Whether I was working the courts, the media, or Congress during the CAL strike, assisting the EAL pilots with press and strategy matters during their strike, or getting fired at People Express for doing battle with management over its treatment of employees, I always felt more comfortable putting myself "out there" with the truth than not. That is just me, and I don't expect it or demand it from others

As for yourself, do you believe captainMark when he says:

with all this talk of competence..why can't lavender upgrade...i have heard that he busted a few times...JLs letter was directed at him..he is the problem!

Do you believe that he would attempt this form of character assassination if he had to be accountable for it? Do you like being associated with this caliber of comment?

My guess is that these kind of statements are rejected out of hand by readers simply because they are written anonymously. Likewise, I would take you more seriously if you were condemning them. They are hurting your cause. If you want to appear to be fair and open-minded to readers, condemn this stuff and address the issues.

Bob

Bob,

You still haven't answered any questions. Read the previous posts and you can figure out who Tony C is. It's not that hard for a competent person. Maybe you should be open minded and realize that the majority opposes changing age 60. No one says you can't fly past age 60, you just can't do it at a major airline. I don't hear you asking for law enforement or air traffic controllers to be able to work to age 65. They have to go at 57. Age discremination? But hey, that doesn't effect you so you don't care. Pay your dues and stop being a freeloader, then maybe you would get some credibility.

"One last thought……if you could hold Memphis wide-body Captain for more than two years, haven't bid a Captain seat, and don't want to, you're part of the problem….. hang up your stripes. It's not a part-time job…we can't use part-time help. "


Well Bob, it looks like Jack was talking directly to YOU! He hit the nail on the head with the part-time job remark!

**URL deleted by Administrator, legal action threatened against this poster by target URL owner**

Crawl out of your hole in Provo and try to make Captain again, it's okay, we're all behind you. You'll make it one of these times, I know you can. Try, try, and try again--you can do it...

As far as Tony C goes. We all know who he is and we respect him for his opinions. Now, go sell another house!

Not to get flamed at I'm just curious. How much pull does a union really have if congress has the ability to send you back to work anyway? I was thinking of the recent flight attendent strike. Can you actually be jailed or fined for not showing up to work or is it just some thing congress does to say they tried?

Does the industry consider you a SCAB if you aren't part of it?
Are dues tax deductable or could they be used as a tax credit?

Those were the only questions I had. Outside of that I just wanted to say the best pilot I've ever flown with is 68yrs old. He recently lost his medical so obviously he doesn't apply. However up until that point he was very active and one incredible pilot.

Not to get flamed at I'm just curious. How much pull does a union really have if congress has the ability to send you back to work anyway? I was thinking of the recent flight attendent strike. Can you actually be jailed or fined for not showing up to work or is it just some thing congress does to say they tried?

Does the industry consider you a SCAB if you aren't part of it?
Are dues tax deductable or could they be used as a tax credit?

.

Yeah, Congress can send you back to work. If you look at the history of the labor movement, the Gov't has usually been behind the mine owners, steel corp, airlines(APA initially was slammed with a $42 mil fine for threatening to strike). The "s" word gets thrown around pretty freely here. I guess it depends on whether you're a strict or loose interpreter of the definition (crossing a picket line or working for Go jets). And yes union dues are tax deductible, if you itemize, etc.

**URL deleted by Administrator, legal action threatened against this poster by target URL owner**

What weak a$$ webmaster wouldn't want more hits?

Mind boggling!